Scotland's Shame

citytillidie

Here is the reason the TV failed

Eirebear

jimmyboy wrote: »

Will you cop on now. There is a slight difference with 1 or 2 Celtic fans spitting on you wife and supposedly giving you a concussion(not calling u a liar) than thousands of Rangers fans kicking the bo*****s out of the Police and stabbing a Zenit supporter.

Of course there is.

But considering i wasnt on a street with 120,000 Celtic supporters it kind of evens up the odds doesnt it?

I have said all through this thread that their is a MAJOR problem in Glasgow, and last nights events in Manchester were a symptom of that.

Unfortunately certain sections of the celtic support are too blinkered to see this, instead blaming everything on the evil Rangers supporters.

I have made my feelings clear on what happened down there, but im not going to sit idly by as people accuse every single bear that went down there as evil, while proclaiming that all celtic fans are angels.

Dub13

Here is an interesting read,found on a Liverpool forum today.

The Rangers trouble-What really happened.

Ive just got back from Manchester now. The firm i have just joined where doing event security for the game. Until we arrived this afternoon, we didnt realise that we where actually working on the fan parks in the city centre.

We got given high vis jackets then I was posted with 6 others to one of the gates at Picadilly Square Fan Park at around half 5. The crowds where unbelieveable, reminicent of Tacksim and Syntagma square for us, except in a much smaller area. Our job was to stop people entering with glass bottles. Bearing in mind this was my first ever shift, it was quite daunting. Alot of the people who i had to challenge for bottles where sound, had no objections because we provided plastic cups for them to enter their bottles in to. But there was alot of scum aswell, ****ed out of their faces who had none of it. I asked one big feller to empty his bottle in to a cup, very politely, and i was told to **** off. I then went over to him again, and he twatted me in the chest, i asked him again with a plastic cup in my hand for him and he threw me in to a fence. **** this, i dont get paid enough for this ****e so i left him.

It was clear by then the sqaure was becoming dangerously overcrowded. Our gate was getting crushed, and we where pulled away by police for our own safety. We where moved further up to the entrance of the square, where barriers where accross preventing people from entering because it was too full. A lot of lads tried to get through, and the vast majority where sound about it and good natured with me. I had many a conversation with jocks when they noticed my scouse accent and realised i wasnt a manc. My advice to them was to find a pub before the rush, which went against what we where told to tell them which was to head for the fan park at the ground. I knew theyd have **** there so i didnt tell them that. No problems whatsoever at this point.

Then about 20mins before kick off, an older scots feller came over to me and said hoow dangerously crowded it was in the square, he said "someone was going to get killed", and thats why he left. He also said to me "mark my words, there will be a riot in there". I had those suspicions myself. From my experience of Istanbul and Athens, you can tell when something is not right, and i definately sensed that then.

We then hit quarter to 8, and the square is rammed with Rangers fans, singing and watching the big screen for the adverts to end and the game to start. By 5 to 8, still no game. Then a supervisor gets it over his radio that they werent showing it. I couldnt believe it. My words to him where "there will be absolute ****in murder here, its ****in suicide". Jocks where coming over asking us what was going on, and we had to tell them. They where understandabely ****in fumin. I tried to tell them that i totally agreed with them, and that it was a ****in disgrace. Some where sound with me, recognising it wasnt our fault as event stewards. But then as people started to twig on what was going on, it started getting nasty.

There was about 15 of us on this gate with a few police near by, and the scots where fuming with us. Coming over, pushing us, screaming in our faces. What could we do? I agreed with every word they said, id be ****in fuming aswell, but it had **** all to do with us. Then it got quite serious, bottles where being thrown, passing just past my face and lads where getting really aggresive with us. It was then when our head office told us to pull out, and the police moved us down a side street. We where getting dogs abuse, bottles thrown down at us, everything. Obviously the fact we where in uniform attracted it.

Then our supervisor said they had to try and move us in to one of the portacabins back in the middle of the sqaure. We walked through as a group, through thousands of scots who where going crazy, throwing all kinds, screaming in our faces. We eventually had to take our jackets off and run. When we made it to this portacabin, all hell was going off around us. Riot police where coming from everywhere, and hundreds of rangers fans where charging them. Bus shelter where ripped down, and metal and wooden poles used as weapons to charge the police. The place was totally trashed. A bottle landed right next to me which had been thrown from someone. This went on for 3hours solid until 11 oclock. We had to take off all jackets and ties, and when it quietened down about half 11 we where able to make way to our coach at the GMex. Back at the coach we heard a Russian had been stabbed aswell.

People have said that the big screen in our square had a technical fault and thats why the match wasnt shown. I know for a fact that is bollocks. It wasnt shown because of the shear numbers in the sqaure. The reasoning was that if Rangers scored, there would be bedlam. But whichever thick ***** makes these decisions obviously didnt realise the implications of not showing the game. If they wherent going to show it, they shouldve informed everyone at 6 o clock and give people time to fine somewhere else, not at ****in kick off. Its an absolute disgrace, and so typical of UEFA event. I couldve organised it better, it was a sham. They totally underestimated the amount of scots that would travel. Logical thing to do would be to put a big screen in old Trafford and let people watch it there, then there wouldve been no bother. 2 ****in ****ty fan parks was never going to be enough. I could see it, everyone else could, why cant the ****in organisers of these events? Useless *****, heads should ****in role after tonight.

Ive spoke to my dad and others who've said that the news have reported it as small disturbances with a hand full of Rangers fans clashing with the police. Thats absolute bull****, total bollocks. There where ****in hundreds, if not more, and this went on for hours right in front of my eyes. To be fair, the amount of Scots lads who made the effort to come over and speak to us while this was going on, simply saying "sorry" was amazing. I spoke to a feller who made the effort to come over to us when he seen us having all kinds thrown in our direction, and he just apologised on behalf of Rangers fans, and said what a disgrace and embarrasment it was. I know from experience that its always a minority who are scum, and tar everyone with the same brush. But thats what happened, anything you hear otherwise is crap, i ****in seen it with my own eyes. Rangers fans had every right to be pissed with what happened in that square, but the actions of some afterwards, the rioting for 2 hours, was inexcusable. And it wasnt a "handfull" either.

A Dub in Glasgo

Interesting all right although there is no way of knowing it's accuracy until the results of some sort of inquiry. After all anybody can post stuff and claim to be in the know

Did the authorities sacrifice the city centre to protect the fans?

Eirebear

citytillidie wrote: »

Here is the reason the TV failed

Out of order mate

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Interesting all right although there is no way of knowing it's accuracy until the results of some sort of inquiry. After all anybody can post stuff and claim to be in the know

Did the authorities sacrifice the city centre to protect the fans?

Still no excuse TBH.
I can understand the bears frutrations, but its still not on

dc69

that article probably could not be more annoying with the "where" instead of were.

Eirebear wrote: »

Out of order mate

whats out of order?the picture lol

stooge

Eirebear wrote: »

Out of order mate

Not out of order at all. lighten up ffs.

Eirebear wrote: »

Still no excuse TBH.
I can understand the bears frutrations, but its still not on

Cant verify that what the guy says is true so I'll take the article with a pinch of salt.


Eirebear, we all know that there are problems in scotland and that celtic and rangers rivalry is a major factor. However, this thread is not about whats happening in scotland, it's about whats happening almost every time rangers play away in europe.

From singing sick songs to clashing with rival fans, to rioting with police. Theyve been fined before and warned so now is the time to take action. I think you will agree that the behaviour of celtic fans on their travels has been impeccable (if not the behaviour of some people in glasgow itself).

Eirebear

stooge wrote: »

Not out of order at all. lighten up ffs.

I dont particularly find it funny

stooge wrote: »

Cant verify that what the guy says is true so I'll take the article with a pinch of salt.

As i said, true or not it is no excuse.

stooge wrote: »

Eirebear, we all know that there are problems in scotland and that celtic and rangers rivalry is a major factor. However, this thread is not about whats happening in scotland, it's about whats happening almost every time rangers play away in europe. From singing sick songs to clashing with rival fans, to rioting with police. Theyve been fined before and warned so now is the time to take action. I think you will agree that the behaviour of celtic fans on their travels has been impeccable (if not the behaviour of some people in glasgow itself).

Every time eh?
As i have stated before, there has been 0 arrests on Rangers away trips this season, untill last night.

I am not trying to deflect from what happened last night, but lets have a look at the bigger picture.

Boggles

Herd Mentality, read a book on it a few years back, you'd be amazed how few people it takes to start what happened in Manchester last night.

Fascinating (but scary) stuff.

Eirebear

Boggles wrote: »

Herd Mentality, read a book on it a few years back, you'd be amazed how few people it takes to start what happened in Manchester last night.

Fascinating (but scary) stuff.

Very true, especially when you add alcohol and frustration into the mix.

OhNoYouDidn't

Best two related photos ever! LMFAO



Moments later.....




All very dignifed, crying like a girl with his bags round his ankles!

LuckyLloyd

Celtic went to Seville (lost) and received praise for the good behavior and nature of their fans.

Rangers went to Manchester (lost) and their fans decided to **** the place up.

Awesome.

In my opinion, UEFA needs to make an example of this club. They should be banned from all European competition for a minimum of two years. Hit them where it hurts - the finances - and the club might do something about this minority (yet sizable) element of their support.

Let me make it clear that I'm not a Celtic fan. I'm a football fan. And this stuff needs to stop. And it won't stop until stuff like this carries major, major punishment.

OhNoYouDidn't

Look at the sign right behind the guy on the phone box.... Magnificent irony

5ForKeeps

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Look at the sign right behind the guy on the phone box.... Magnificent irony

Can't see anything wrong about the fan walking there. The cop was very heavy handed unless something happened with the fan before these photo's were taken who knows.

5ForKeeps

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Best two related photos ever! LMFAO



Moments later.....




All very dignifed, crying like a girl with his bags round his ankles!

In the first picture is that a newcastle jersey in the background the black and white?

As for the second picture, what a big p***y.

Sizzler

Check out the series of pics half way down this page

http://forum.football365.com/index.php?t=msg&th=63608&prevloaded=1&&start=600

One minute the 'big man' is goading a copper, 30 seconds later he has an alsation clamped to his leg....cue wailing like a baby and getting his classy wife to carry him away, she must be very proud of him.

therecklessone

Sizzler wrote: »

Check out the series of pics half way down this page

http://forum.football365.com/index.php?t=msg&th=63608&prevloaded=1&&start=600

One minute the 'big man' is goading a copper, 30 seconds later he has an alsation clamped to his leg....cue wailing like a baby and getting his classy wife to carry him away, she must be very proud of him.

Fcuk me, some of you people really need to stop taking pleasure in the night's events.

He's not "goading" the copper, he has his hands up as a defensive gesture.

Take that from somebody who took an undeserved hiding in Spain last year, the bruises took six weeks to clear (from my arse to my knee)

FRM

Got back from Manchester last night and took my time to read through the posts this morning.....

Firstly before I go on I would like to say the pictures I saw on SSN last night there is NO condoning these acts. There are no excuses that can be made at all for some of the fan's reaction to the screen failing.

Some of the facts though that people are banding about are utter b*llocks.

From one post you would think it was a war zone for hours in Manchester until well after 11pm. Funny how we walked back through Piccadilly gardens and the rest of the City centre after the match - 10:15 approx - and it was nearly deserted. One of my mates had texted me just as the match kicked off to say the TV had failed and the riot police weren't letting anyone out of the fanzone to go elsewhere. Later on that night when we met up with them they said that hadn't helped the situation either. I am not trying to say the police were to blame at all just trying to paint a fuller a picture so that the true picture is out there.

As for the Zenit supporter being stabbed inside the stadium - have the police actually said who stabbed him? The initial story coming from Manchester yesterday was that it was his own supporters. Until this has been officially stated though we do NOT know for sure.

The atmosphere all day until we left for the stadium at 5pm'ish was amazing - even the locals were joining in. I also doubt that I will witness an atmosphere like I did in the stadium ever again - it truely was once in a lifetime.

The f*cking idiots though have taken the edge off a magnificent experience.

therecklessone

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Look at the sign right behind the guy on the phone box.... Magnificent irony

Thuggish behaviour by the Old Bill there.

therecklessone

FRM wrote: »

Some of the facts though that people are banding about are utter b*llocks.

From one post you would think it was a war zone for hours in Manchester until well after 11pm. Funny how we walked back through Piccadilly gardens and the rest of the City centre after the match - 10:15 approx - and it was nearly deserted. One of my mates had texted me just as the match kicked off to say the TV had failed and the riot police weren't letting anyone out of the fanzone to go elsewhere. Later on that night when we met up with them they said that hadn't helped the situation either. I am not trying to say the police were to blame at all just trying to paint a fuller a picture so that the true picture is out there.

In contrast, posted on a Spurs board:

I was there yesterday,i tell what when wrong at 10:15 they stopped selling drink al all over the city.My bus picked up at one,we had 2 hours to do nothing.They shut the train stations.

Going back to the men arena was one of the scariest walks of my life.
It was a war zone the police ,who were there got battered and run away.
they were even fighting themselves,if you disagreed with them,you got it.

Eirebear

ONYD, the guy the his trouser round his ankles is an arsehole.

The other two series of photographs you show are nothing short of police brutality. What right do they have to barge through a mans back with their riot shield?
The guy with the alsation has been a topic of conversation on other forums yesterday, he is quite clearly trying to put his hands in a calming, defensive gesture not an attacking aggresive one.

Again, there is no excuse for some of the sickening pictures i have seen, but its also becoming fairly obvious that the police lost the plot and innocent people where injured by them.

Sizzler

therecklessone wrote: »

He's not "goading" the copper

Yeah I'm sure he was discussing the economic downturn and it just got a bit heated :rolleyes:

FRM

Sizzler what really is your problem?

PauloMN

Eirebear wrote: »

ONYD, the guy the his trouser round his ankles is an arsehole.

The other two series of photographs you show are nothing short of police brutality. What right do they have to barge through a mans back with their riot shield?
The guy with the alsation has been a topic of conversation on other forums yesterday, he is quite clearly trying to put his hands in a calming, defensive gesture not an attacking aggresive one.

Again, there is no excuse for some of the sickening pictures i have seen, but its also becoming fairly obvious that the police lost the plot and innocent people where injured by them.

I don't fall for it, not one bit. This mornings Daily Ranger is at it also. There's a Rangers man on here who constantly talks about "sweeping under the carpet". Take a look at how the SCOTTISH media are doing just that this morning for Rangers FC. Sweeping under the carpet, papering over the cracks etc.. Bain is even claiming they weren't Rangers fans.

Why were riot police there in the first place?

Stand up, take responsibility and take action Rangers FC.

Mitch Connor

Eirebear wrote: »

ONYD, the guy the his trouser round his ankles is an arsehole.

The other two series of photographs you show are nothing short of police brutality. What right do they have to barge through a mans back with their riot shield?
The guy with the alsation has been a topic of conversation on other forums yesterday, he is quite clearly trying to put his hands in a calming, defensive gesture not an attacking aggresive one.

Again, there is no excuse for some of the sickening pictures i have seen, but its also becoming fairly obvious that the police lost the plot and innocent people where injured by them.

I had the same reaction when I saw the photo's. However, I would also say that we don't know what was happening before the photo's. The guy could have been extremely aggressive and violent but the pictures just may not have captured this. We simply don't know enough about what happened either way.

therecklessone

Sizzler wrote: »

Yeah I'm sure he was discussing the economic downturn and it just got a bit heated :rolleyes:

You've been found out, sarcasm won't dig you out of the hole you're in.

Dig up dummy.

CountingCrows

Eirebear wrote: »

Again, there is no excuse for some of the sickening pictures i have seen, but...

But nothing, the police didn't start the trouble. And Bain won't even admit the club has a problem with its fans, well there's a good starting point for sorting this out :rolleyes:

Eirebear

PauloMN wrote: »

I don't fall for it, not one bit. This mornings Daily Ranger is at it also. There's a Rangers man on here who constantly talks about "sweeping under the carpet". Take a look at how the SCOTTISH media are doing just that this morning for Rangers FC. Sweeping under the carpet, papering over the cracks etc.. Bain is even claiming they weren't Rangers fans.

Why were riot police there in the first place?

Stand up, take responsibility and take action Rangers FC.

Paul i dont think anyone is sweping anything under the carpet.

Bain is claiming that these are people who would not usually be connected with Rangers i.e they dont go to games in general, they dont follow the club the way a normal fan would.
He has also stated that Rangers will be doing everything in their power to bring them to justice.

Unfortunately there is very little else that Rangers FC as a club can do, except ban anyone identified from our own stadium...not really a punishment for someone who probably doesnt go to games is it?

The pictures above clearly shpow a man walking away from the trouble and being assaulted by a police officer, now in my mind that is police brutality. Of course we dont know the whole story, but if it was a picture of him going through the back of a police officer like that it would be used in court as evidence. Do you think that man will get the same benefit?

AGain, i am not condoning the actions of people in Manchester on Wednesday, but we must look at the bigger picture.
Unfortunately for Rangers, the people to blame HAVE conneced themselves with the club and we must do something about them, in conjunction with the police and GMC, but while doing that we must look at the other factors involved, such as overcrowding of the fanzones, police being unprepared, stewarding etc.

only then will we get to the bottom of what really happened

FRM

PauloMN yes I do talk about CELTIC sweeping things under the carpet - the fact on that one is they do.

Its great how some people are gloating on this one.

The riot police were also at the stadium - why were they there? FFS man the pure numbers meant police were all over Manchester on Wednesday.

I wonder what action some people want Rangers to take. Some would only be happy if they decided to wind up the club and never to play again just like the Kelly family tried to do across the city for all those years :D:D

Sizzler

therecklessone wrote: »

You've been found out, sarcasm won't dig you out of the hole you're in.

Dig up dummy.

Sorry? What? If you find my postings offensive report it.

Do you want me to report you personal abuse?

I dont feel I have to dig myself out of anywhere, my comment you quoted was attributed to the fact you said he wasn't goading the policeman. OK, I take your point graciously that his fists weren't raised but as a poster since said you don't know what the guy was saying do you? Nor do I ? I can only assume he wasn't asking the copper around for tea and sandwiches. Lighten up.

I have kept my counsel on the issue and as many TRUE fans have come on and said something should be done about it. I wouldnt prescribe a blanket ban but I honestly feel the club are accountable for their fans and when the sh*t hits the fan something should be done. This thread isnt about past games such as Istanbul, Rome, or Moscow as some people have tried to make it be, its about something that happened this week, was newsworthy and hence the discussion around same.

For the record, its not just because its Rangers. I support Utd and I would be suggesting the same solutuon if they ran amock to this degree.

PS: Sorry you got caught up in the hassle in Spain last year, was NOT good.

BaZmO*

Evil_Clown wrote: »

Rangers have redeemed themselves a little in my eyes by cancelling an open top bus ride due to the death of Tommy Burns
I still think they should ahve to play some of their next european games behind closed doors
As a sidenote please don't turn this thread into another Man U vs Liverpool thread with the possibility of trouble in Moscow storyline. This happens too much already in here imo

But why would you want to celebrate losing is a final. I'm sure it would've still went ahead if they had of won. Just a PR stunt tbh.

nipplenuts wrote: »

I'm just surprised no one has blamed the police and/or stadium management for the trouble. After all, every time in the last couple of years a British side has had crowd trouble it has been the fault of "Johnny Foreigner" for not knowing what to expect and/or how to deal with it.

But some of the Rangers "fans" have blamed the police.
Interestingly enough there was some Scottish sports journalist on Matt Cooper last night saying that when the big screen broke they got an electrician in to fix it and when he was trying to do so a few "fans" thought it'd be a good idea to throw bottles at him, and well we all know what happened then. Disgraceful behaviour tbh.

big b

From today's Daily Record:


UEFA Cup Final riot: The police lost control
May 16 2008 By Keith McLeod In Manchester

BEING on the wrong end of a full-scale charge by police in riot gear is not an experience I'll want to remember.

One minute the police had lined up, batons drawn and shields up, the next all hell broke loose.

The police charges seemed ad-hoc, ill-planned and badly co-ordinated.

One minute they drove fans in one direction, the next it was another.

This meant that innocent people who had little knowledge of what was going on became embroiled through no fault of their own.

Some, taken by surprise, were simply not fast enough to outrun the police, who brought in vans and dogs.

The trigger had been a small number of "fans" who goaded the police by going eye-to-eye with them or chucking a bottle.

And it was remarkable that almost none of the ringleaders wore club colours or spoke with a Scottish accent. There were, however, many English and Northern Irish accents.
However, no matter who was involved, the charge by the police was indiscriminate.

Anyone in their line of advance was a potential target, or so it seemed.

This meant that when the charge began, the first of a dozen when police frankly lost control of Manchester city centre, those fans who had provoked it scattered quickly, leaving innocents behind to deal with the consequences.

This was Piccadilly Gardens, the main fan zone in Manchester's showpiece UEFA Cup final celebration.

I can remember running back with my right hand up to protect myself from any baton blow.

People were being chased into a confined space with no obvious escape route.

Thankfully, the full-on police charge halted short of me and I escaped intact.

Others were not quite so lucky though. I saw baton blows being landed on heads. Maybe police were aiming for the upper arm but the blows did land on heads.

The next thing I saw was more clear cut. This time, three riot officers chased one man who fell to his knees next to the shutters of a shop.

Despite the fact he was down, a baton blow hit him square on the back, quickly followed by another.

The police officer who cuffed him saw fit to land three kicks to the kidney area. The next two hours were punctuated by similar charges where drunk hooligans went face to face with the police.

Each time more riot police were bussed in, the buses themselves along with police cars became immediate targets for bottles.

My colleague Craig McDonald was also caught up, though in a different area.

Several people had hit the deck and showed no sign of getting up any time soon.

Ambulances were allowed through the mob but police vans and cars were instant targets.

It was a good idea to crouch in a shop doorway or a nearby alley because there was no way of telling where the next missile was going to land.

I saw many people with head injuries and baying macho fronts on both sides. A small group of thugs were taunting the police to come forward, which they did at speed, some thumping their batons against their shields. As a bottle was thrown, one cop wearing helmet and visor chose to meet it with a headbutt.

As the chaos continued I saw elderly people trying to flee and mothers running with toddlers in their arms or in their chairs.

At one point, police bundled two Record photographers into a police van for their "own safety" - only for other police to force them out again seconds later.

Only when the police cleared out, leaving no target for the bottle throwers, did things calm down. Zenit fans mingled with Rangers fans with no inter-fan fighting.
We were shocked by the trouble but not surprised.

I was uneasy at 4pm on Wednesday.

I had arrived at Piccadilly Gardens and was even then concerned by the huge numbers on the streets.

Yes, it was a carnival atmosphere.

But there were too many people. Even at that stage there were too many, causing bottlenecks and potential for crushing.

As I made my way to another fan zone at Cathedral Gardens it dawned on me there were too many fans in the city as a whole.

Police and stewards were doing their best but there were not enough of them.

It struck me police had badly misjudged numbers of fans. There seemed to be double the anticipated 100,000.

Manchester City Council had told us they were used to huge sporting events and could cope.

Fan zones with a combined capacity of 22,000 just didn't stack up.

The trouble on the streets seemed to be sparked when a huge screen in the main fan zone broke down five minutes before kick-off. For 15 minutes, a sign on the screen said the link from the stadium was being repaired.

Then the screen went blank.

At this point, thousands of angry fans tried to get to the other big screens elsewhere in the city centre.

At first, police allowed access down Oldham Street. Then a line of riot police blocked the street off.

When aggressive riot police line up, it is highly intimidating. It seems to bring out aggressive and intimidating behaviour in people that way inclined.

The worst of the trouble began when the riot police arrived. It stopped when the riot police left.

---

Absolutely no excuse for some of the savagery, but this account and many others suggest that "Scotlands' Shame" was largely provoked by inadequate facilities (the "broken" screen in particular) & dubious policing and to at least some degree carried out by people who were either non Rangers fans or non-Scottish or both.
Incidentally, quite how any club are supposed to be responsible for a minimum 100,000 people with no tickets, travel club, or any official affiliation to them is questionable to say the least.

FRM

Big_B you will get some paranoid people saying that the paper is actually called the 'Daily Ranger'.

Even though it is a fairer report on the actual situation. As my mate said - the riot police wouldn't let anyone leave the Piccadilly area to go to the other fanzones - thats when the trouble began.

stooge

Tauren wrote: »

I had the same reaction when I saw the photo's. However, I would also say that we don't know what was happening before the photo's. The guy could have been extremely aggressive and violent but the pictures just may not have captured this. We simply don't know enough about what happened either way.

Exactly.

How many times do you see people throw bricks or bottles at police and then when the police finally catch up with them the hooligans act like they didnt do anything and they are the cops best friend. I would be inclined (and probably correct) to say alomost everyone who took a hit from a cop deserved it.

PauloMN

It's always somebody else's fault when Rangers fans misbehave. Always.

therecklessone

Sizzler wrote: »

Do you want me to report you personal abuse?

Do whatever you think is the right thing to do.

Sizzler wrote: »

I dont feel I have to dig myself out of anywhere, my comment you quoted was attributed to the fact you said he wasn't goading the policeman. OK, I take your point graciously that his fists weren't raised but as a poster since said you don't know what the guy was saying do you? Nor do I ? I can only assume he wasn't asking the copper around for tea and sandwiches. Lighten up.

Important bit in bold.

You're assuming he was "goading" the copper, I'm simply commenting on the pictures I see. We don't know what went on, I think the best thing is comment objectively on what we see. I see a copper with his baton drawn and a number of police dogs in the picture, and a Rangers fan with his hands in front of his face in a defensive stance.

I see no evidence of goading.

PS: Sorry you got caught up in the hassle in Spain last year, was NOT good.

Thank you, it was not a nice experience and I certainly wouldn't wish the same on anyone unless they had committed some offence, and only then if necessary to preserve order.

big b

FRM wrote: »

Big_B you will get some paranoid people saying that the paper is actually called the 'Daily Ranger'.

Don't I know it!
Whether that claim is actually accurate is for another day.

therecklessone

stooge wrote: »

I would be inclined (and probably correct) to say alomost everyone who took a hit from a cop deserved it.

And I would be inclined to say that until you have witnessed this kind of event first hand you will never know enough to draw that sort of conclusion.

Police in general do not identify trouble makers then target them for a whack of a baton, in a lot of cases it's "wrong place wrong time". If you're standing within whacking distance and they want you moved, they'll whack.

My "crime" in Seville was to stand in an aisle that the Robocops wanted cleared. We weren't even aware that trouble had started in the lower tier, they obviously were. I was standing in the aisle by the way, because there was no signs to suggest what block or row we were near, and the match stewards were on strike that week so only had about 15 Spurs stewards to advise us on what to do. Like all of our away games in Europe, we were told to sit in an empty seat we could find, as they weren't made aware of the seating arrangements either.

For my crime I got a couple of belts of a baton, and was struck on the back of the head (think it was by the cop's arm) as I retreated down a set of stairs. I lost my balance and fell the last few steps, hit my head and was badly winded. The Robocop stood over me with his baton above his head ready to strike me, and I had my arms up much like the Rangers fan in the pictures I commented on to protect myself. A female security guard managed to drag him away from me, and when she came back to see if I was ok she was bawling.

My mate's girlfriend had her arm broken, and she went to the hospital with a 16 year old girl who had been badly beaten. The girl's dad was in tears because he couldn't defend his own daughter.





There's Lynn's injuries.

Her boyfriend got these trying to defend her:





Please stop assuming anything from the comfort of your keyboard.

RasTa

Please don't think your a expert because of what happened to you in Spain. English police are very different and wouldn't deploy riot police for the fun of it. The Rangers fans were out of control and needed to be stopped. I am gonna be brunt but I don't care and have no symptathy for any Rangers fan who got a beating the other night.

therecklessone

RasTa wrote: »

Please don't think your a expert because of what happened to you in Spain. English police are very different and wouldn't deploy riot police for the fun of it. The Rangers fans were out of control and needed to be stopped. I am gonna be brunt but I don't care and have no symptathy for any Rangers fan who got a beating the other night.

I respectfully suggest I know more than the average fan.

I've attended about 70 games in the last three years in England, I've travelled the country watching Spurs.

My experience of high profile London derbies is not as extreme, but I've seen plenty take a belt of a baton for nothing.

I was pushed in front of a moving car in North London one night by a riot officer who ran at me from behind as I was walking away from the ground. I suppose I don't walk fast enough for them...:rolleyes:

I'm not excusing the actions of Rangers fans, but the amount of bull being spouted on here by people taking great glee in "the Hun" taking a battering is sickening.

Eirebear

RasTa wrote: »

Please don't think your a expert because of what happened to you in Spain. English police are very different and wouldn't deploy riot police for the fun of it. The Rangers fans were out of control and needed to be stopped. I am gonna be brunt but I don't care and have no symptathy for any Rangers fan who got a beating the other night.

These would be the same English Police who regularly handed out beatings to people in the 70's and 80's for having an Irish accent yes?

stooge

Eirebear wrote: »

Every time eh?
As i have stated before, there has been 0 arrests on Rangers away trips this season, untill last night.

I am not trying to deflect from what happened last night, but lets have a look at the bigger picture.

Yeah, I agree, this season in europe Rangers fans seemed to be doing ok, until wednesday night. But the violence after the final means the last 4 seasons your european campaign has been tainted by some kind of bad behaviour by Rangers fans. Doing a quick search for rangers problems in europe over the past few seasons brings up the following.

2007
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/r/rangers/6564745.stm

2007
http://www.rte.ie/sport/2007/0221/rangers.html

2006
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6048730.stm

2006
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/4785184.stm

2002
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1835141.stm

Also a few interesting facts:
- 80,000 Celtic fans travel to Seville for UEFA Final (and lost), not one arrest was made.
- 20,000 Celtic fans travel to Barcelona, Celtic fans took their own bin bags to clean-up. They also receive praise from Barcelona for the fans conduct.
- 100.000 Rangers fans travel to Manchester for UEFA Final, Manchester resembles a tipping site the next day with numerous arresta dn injuries to police.
- 20,000 Rangers fans travel to Barcelona, century old monuments are destroyed and fountains are used as toilets.

FRM

You know what I am fed up with the simple analogy people are making with Seville and Barcelona trips.

To repeat what the recklessone has already stated - 'I'm not excusing the actions of Rangers fans, but the amount of bull being spouted on here by people taking great glee in "the Hun" taking a battering is sickening'.

Thats this thread summed up in a sentence.

stooge

therecklessone wrote: »

And I would be inclined to say that until you have witnessed this kind of event first hand you will never know enough to draw that sort of conclusion.

Please stop assuming anything from the comfort of your keyboard.

What makes you think you are the only one to have been in the middle of some trouble?

I have witnessed voilence first hand/ I have witnessed rioting. I would be quite confident in saying that I've seen more than most on this forum and not because I've wanted to but purely due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not all of it has been related to football but my statements above have been based on my experiences and in my experience, the very vast majority of people who get hit, deserve it.

step down off your high horse for a minute and stop trying to defend the indefensible (that is the behaviour of ranger fans).

RasTa

Eirebear wrote: »

These would be the same English Police who regularly handed out beatings to people in the 70's and 80's for having an Irish accent yes?

Yeah that was 20+ years ago, what has that got to do with anything? I go to Manchester about 10 times a season for games and the police are nothing but professional.

stooge

FRM wrote: »

people taking great glee in "the Hun" taking a battering is sickening'.

I dont take any glee in 'the hun' as your call them, taking a 'battering'. I for one was cheering on rangers in the final, just like i cheered them on through the other rounds. Its not the club/players that I dont like, its the minority of fans who give the club a bad name, and its the failure of the club to erradicate this element that is frustrating.

Eirebear

RasTa wrote: »

Yeah that was 20+ years ago, what has that got to do with anything? I go to Manchester about 10 times a season for games and the police are nothing but professional.

Ah yes, you fly in and fly out of manchester a couple of times a year.

Have you ever stood in a square with a capacity of 15,000 with almost 30,000 people? The animals who attacked the police caused them to completely lose control and innocent people got hurt.

As for police proffesionality and control in England, Jean CHarles de Menezes anyone?

zAbbo

I haven't read all of this thread, or all of the articles on it, but what I will say, that tarring all the supporters with the same brush is silly.

All of the issues point to a badly organised event, and poor communication between organisers, security and local police.

It's far too easy to label all Rangers supporters as scum, which they're not, I'm pretty sure if the same situation occurred I'd be pretty pissed off, and if things were kicking off, I'd have no problem doing everything I could to protect myself and GF.

Boggles

Eirebear wrote: »

As for police proffesionality and control in England, Jean CHarles de Menezes anyone?

That was a text book execution of a "terrorist".

You can't compare it to the local bobby told to don a riot suit and "unleash hell"!

therecklessone

stooge wrote: »

step down off your high horse for a minute and stop trying to defend the indefensible (that is the behaviour of ranger fans).

I draw your attention to a post I made earlier:

therecklessone wrote: »

I'm not excusing the actions of Rangers fans