Your thoughts on Irwin Rommel

Riddle101

What do you think of this man, proberly the greatest General of the 20th Century the man was a great commander who got the nickname, The Desert Fox. Managed to hold Africa but always ran short of supplies which is why he could never finish the job, he also managed to get his Panzer Unit to break through one part of the maginot Line in France and was one of the conpirators in the plot to kill Hitler. I my View he was a great General and although he worked for the wrong side was truly an admirable general by both sides. I'm not too sure of his views though whether he was a Nazi supportor or not but i don't think that should cloud our judgment on what he was like on the Battlefield. So i ask you again, What do you think of him?

jmayo

Riddle101 wrote: »

What do you think of this man, proberly the greatest General of the 20th Century the man was a great commander who got the nickname, The Desert Fox. Managed to hold Africa but always ran short of supplies which is why he could never finish the job, he also managed to get his Panzer Unit to break through one part of the maginot Line in France and was one of the conpirators in the plot to kill Hitler. I my View he was a great General and although he worked for the wrong side was truly an admirable general by both sides. I'm not too sure of his views though whether he was a Nazi supportor or not but i don't think that should cloud our judgment on what he was like on the Battlefield. So i ask you again, What do you think of him?

Very good General who was not too impressed with his Axis Allies in North Africa.
I think he avoided the Maginot Line in France by going through Belgium.
Managed to hold Africa is a bit of an overstatement.
He managed to outfox the Allies and was a master at mechanised warfare which was particularly suited to wide open expanses of North Africa
Weaknesses he had to face was lack of air support, another was the supply lines were stretched and susceptible to SAS/Long Range Desert Group attacks and of course his allies who really did not fancy fighting particularly against the Aussies.
Always tended to lead from the front, sometimes actually getting ahead of his own troops.
He was missing for part of battle of El Alamein and some reckon it did have a bearing on it's outcome but the Italians were weak link (or maybe the missing link) and were always targeted by British.
Also he was requested by Hitler to return rather than surrender with what was left of the Africa Korps in Tunisia.

He had an influence over the way the Normandy coast was strenghened in preparation for Allied Invasion.

There has been debate about whether he was an ardent Nazi.
He was good friends with Hitler and used his influence to get promotions.
He was probably of the old school Wehrmarcht Prussian military attitude that may have enjoyed the glory and militarism that Hitler and Nazis brought.
Also it is noticableis only when war going against them that they turned on Hitler.
There is also debate abnout how much he really was involved in the plot to kill Hitler.
Of course he had to commit suicide to protect family (he was one that got a choice because of his fame), although his son still ended up serving and managed to get captured by Western Allies.

Rommel though was by all accounts was quiet good, in comparison to someGerman commanders, in that he did not implement Hitler's orders about killing captured commandos etc in North Africa.

SlabMurphy

Maybe some of you fellows who are more up on WW2 can supply better details, but I think he was outnumbered 4 to 1 in men, 4 to 1 in planes and 3 to 1 in tanks - and STILL he almost won the conflict. Amazing General.

jmayo

SlabMurphy wrote: »

Maybe some of you fellows who are more up on WW2 can supply better details, but I think he was outnumbered 4 to 1 in men, 4 to 1 in planes and 3 to 1 in tanks - and STILL he almost won the conflict. Amazing General.

The Afrika Korps had the 88 and that could penetrate British frontal armour at upto 2000 yards.
Even though numerically outnumbered he had often superior equipment, particularly in the early days.
The Panzer IIIs and IVs (later ones armed with 75mm) were better than British Cruiser and early Matildas.
The Brits began to get more equality with the later model Matildas and Churchills with larger guns.
Later they were to get Shermans and then the Americans arrived with their own Shermans.
Only in 1943 did the Afrika Korps receive any Panzer VIs and it was too late at that stage.

Found interesting snippet on web....
When the British launched Operation Crusader in late November 1941 the 8th Army outnumbered the combined Axis force (118,000 men to 113,000), had 680 tanks (with 500 in reserve or in supply) to Rommels 390 and 1000 British planes confronted 320 Axis aircraft.

As I said two of his biggest drawbacks were the lack of supplies which had to be carried over long enemy susceptible supply lines (remember Brtish still had Malta) and his Allies who really added little in terms of fighting capability when compared to for instance the ANZAC troops.
Some of his own collegaues thought he was sometimes reckless but that often added to surprise and confuse the enemy.

Sea Monkey

A top, top bloke.

Red Hand

Does anybody know if this is true? I read somewhere (can't remember where) that he once got wind of an attack about to happen on his position in the desert. So he radioed and rounded up any old clapped out old truck or car near where he was and had his men trail branches and sticks and pieces of wood on ropes off the backs of these old vehicles. Then he ordered them to drive a short distance to new positions. And of course, so goes the story, the British, who were miles away, saw huge clouds of dust in the distance, kicked up the old clapped out bangers and their drag ropes, and so they thought that he had much more tanks and vehicles at his disposal. And called off the attack!

Any truth? Or just a Rommel myth?

Black Swan

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Does anybody know if this is true? I read somewhere (can't remember where) that he once got wind of an attack about to happen on his position in the desert. So he radioed and rounded up any old clapped out old truck or car near where he was and had his men trail branches and sticks and pieces of wood on ropes off the backs of these old vehicles. Then he ordered them to drive a short distance to new positions. And of course, so goes the story, the British, who were miles away, saw huge clouds of dust in the distance, kicked up the old clapped out bangers and their drag ropes, and so they thought that he had much more tanks and vehicles at his disposal. And called off the attack!

Any truth? Or just a Rommel myth?

It's been awhile, but I think the book that featured this was called The Desert Fox? He was also known to out-fox the Brits by dressing up trucks to look like tanks from a distance.

Rommel was a scholar-warrior in the classic sense. He was well versed in the theory and practice, and authored a book on tank warfare (that Patton claimed to have read).

Riddle101: From what I have read, he was not a member of the Nazi party.

Red Hand

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

It's been awhile, but I think the book that featured this was called The Desert Fox? He was also known to out-fox the Brits by dressing up trucks to look like tanks from a distance.

Riddle101: From what I have read, he was not a member of the Nazi party.

Thanks for that B!ue! I must check out that biography of him for sure.

Another one that I remember is that he managed to get way ahead of his troops many times, often ending up accidently behind enemy lines. One time, he actually came across a town where Allied soldiers were holed up in a hospital. He shook hands with everybody there and had his photo taken, even though his troops were nowhere near him! The Doctors there didn't know whether the town had been captured or not as the desert war was so fast moving, and so he got back to his staff car and drove back to his lines again.:)

Manic Moran

So he radioed and rounded up any old clapped out old truck or car near where he was and had his men trail branches and sticks and pieces of wood on ropes off the backs of these old vehicles. Then he ordered them to drive a short distance to new positions. And of course, so goes the story, the British, who were miles away, saw huge clouds of dust in the distance, kicked up the old clapped out bangers and their drag ropes, and so they thought that he had much more tanks and vehicles at his disposal. And called off the attack!

Any truth? Or just a Rommel myth?

Exaggeration. He did make great use of 'dust decoys', but they were generally purpose-built pieces of equipment which used aero-engines mounted on the back of trucks. Made much more dust. Unfortunately for him, they were utterly ineffective because the British had cracked the German codes and knew where the attacks were going to come.

It's interesting to analyse the Italian performance in the desert. They have been greatly underrated by both the Germans and the Allies, particularly the Allies: At least Rommel was occasionally complementary towards them. For whatever reason, whenever the Allies beat the Italians, it was because of Italian incompetence, but whenever the Allies were beaten, it was either because the enemy were 'Germans' or at least were 'Italians with German support', regardless of the true situation. In actuality, the Italians often beat the British and Americans fair and square. The Italian contribution to the American defeat at Kasserine Pass, for example, is almost entirely unknown in the US. Common wisdom is that 'It was the Germans that did it'

There is a school of thought which says that Rommel was overrated. He did not conquer France with his own doctrine, he just followed the doctrine put forward by Guderian, as did most German commanders. He was a good field commander, definitely a great Brigade or Division commander, but arguably was a bit above his depth at Army level. He didn't necessarily show a great interest or aptitude in the non-fighting side of war, and the incidents of getting ahead of his troops indicates that he didn't show a true appreciation of his new role at the higher ranks.

NTM

kreuzberger

he and his ilk put the demented little corporal into power in the first place , to crush the german trade unions and the german left and create a wholly militarised society . Rommel and his fellow generals may not have been doctrinaire nazis themselves but the fact is they utilised and then installed the nazis to look after their own interests - to suppress and liquidate all internal political dissent within german society. Only when their own interests began to be threatened by the disastrous course the madman embarked upon at an international level did any of them move to remove the lunatic . Therefore there was nothing honourable about even that course of action , only self interest and class interest .

Riddle101

kreuzberger wrote: »

he and his ilk put the demented little corporal into power in the first place , to crush the german trade unions and the german left and create a wholly militarised society . Rommel and his fellow generals may not have been doctrinaire nazis themselves but the fact is they utilised and then installed the nazis to look after their own interests - to suppress and liquidate all internal political dissent within german society. Only when their own interests began to be threatened by the disastrous course the madman embarked upon at an international level did any of them move to remove the lunatic . Therefore there was nothing honourable about even that course of action , only self interest and class interest .

(1)Rommel or any of the generals didn't put Hitler in power, President Hindenburg made Hitler Chancillor of Germany and then when he died Hitler combined the office of Chancillor and President together and took power in Germany the army was pretty much under Hitler's contol so Rommel couldn't do anything at the time

(2)I believe the reason Rommel and his comrades moved to take out Hitler was because the war was taken a toll and they believed Hitler was a liability and getting out of control, but i also believe that the reason they didn't try to killed Kitler was (i)Fear of their own lives because people were getting assinated by Hitler's SS (ii)They believed in War like Hitler did (iii)They were in no postion to take on Hitler because he was strong at the time and practically untouchable

kreuzberger

Riddle101 wrote: »

(

1)Rommel or any of the generals didn't put Hitler in power, President Hindenburg made Hitler Chancillor of Germany and then when he died Hitler combined the office of Chancillor and President together and took power in Germany the army was pretty much under Hitler's contol so Rommel couldn't do anything at the time

Hindenburg did not wake up one day and see Hitler and think it would be a good idea to make him Chancellor . Hitlers rise to power was sponsored by both the Generals and the Industrialists from the outset .

I believe the reason Rommel and his comrades moved to take out Hitler was because the war was taken a toll and they believed Hitler was a liability and getting out of control,

a liability to their interests

but i also believe that the reason they didn't try to killed Kitler was (i)Fear of their own lives because people were getting assinated by Hitler's SS (ii)They believed in War like Hitler did (iii)They were in no postion to take on Hitler because he was strong at the time and practically untouchable

Hitler was strong because theyd made him strong

Riddle101

kreuzberger wrote: »

Riddle101 wrote: »

(

Hindenburg did not wake up one day and see Hitler and think it would be a good idea to make him Chancellor . Hitlers rise to power was sponsored by both the Generals and the Industrialists from the outset .



a liability to their interests



Hitler was strong because theyd made him strong

(1)You're right Hindenburg didn't wake up and say Hitler could be Chancillor, Hidenburg hated Hitler, Hitler played the snake in the grass. You see the chancilor before Hitler, Franz Von Papen persuaded Hidenburg to make Hitler Chancillor and him vice chancillor, he assured Hidenburg that Hitler could be controlled and that he would keep watch over Hitler, however Hitler was two steps ahead, once in power Hitler got to rule by decree and Hidenburg couldn't stop him or control him. Then of course Hidenburg died.

Now the main reason Hitler came to power was because The People supported, and whether or not generals did support him is not entirely sure but the generals were under Hitlers command and i guess no one knew what was going to happen so they played along with Hitler, for their own benefits of course

(2)They the people made him strong, and let's not forget the SS

kreuzberger

It was German military intelligence which first instructed him to infiltrate the tiny and disorganised German Workers party and helped him with the resources and organisational skills to put his demagoguery to full effect .His political career began as an agent for the Press and Propaganda Department of Group Command IV of the Reichswehr. hitler still however would have gotten nowhere without the sponsorship of General ludendorff and his popularity amongst the german officer class . He was then sponsored by the military-industrial bloc such IG farben and Krupp by virtue of his connections to people like Ludendorf and their persoanl introductions .
A majority of german people still opposed him even at the elections , in particular the countries catholics and communists ( even under Hitlers most vicious repression and blanket propaganda 4 million germans still bravely voted for the communist party). Still without an electoral majority he took full control of the media and police , his propganda went into overdrive and was very clever while dissent against him was basically outlawed . He put the SA in charge of the police and then disbanded the police , all without getting an electoral majority . He burnt the reichstag to create public hysteria . He could have anyone he wanted shot , beaten or arrested despite only acheiving a minority of electoral support . The generals could still have moved against him then with the support of the majority of germanys citizens but instead they cosied up to him .
Thats not to say there werent those amongst the genrals who opposed him , but the majority opted to take an oath of allegiance to him personally whilst breaking their previous oath of allegiance to the german people and constituion .

With their support and aquiescence Germany lost its last line of defence against fascism and was doomed .

Riddle101

kreuzberger wrote: »

It was German military intelligence which first instructed him to infiltrate the tiny and disorganised German Workers party and helped him with the resources and organisational skills to put his demagoguery to full effect .His political career began as an agent for the Press and Propaganda Department of Group Command IV of the Reichswehr. hitler still however would have gotten nowhere without the sponsorship of General ludendorff and his popularity amongst the german officer class . He was then sponsored by the military-industrial bloc such IG farben and Krupp by virtue of his connections to people like Ludendorf and their persoanl introductions .
A majority of german people still opposed him even at the elections , in particular the countries catholics and communists ( even under Hitlers most vicious repression and blanket propaganda 4 million germans still bravely voted for the communist party). Still without an electoral majority he took full control of the media and police , his propganda went into overdrive and was very clever while dissent against him was basically outlawed . He put the SA in charge of the police and then disbanded the police , all without getting an electoral majority . He burnt the reichstag to create public hysteria . He could have anyone he wanted shot , beaten or arrested despite only acheiving a minority of electoral support . The generals could still have moved against him then with the support of the majority of germanys citizens but instead they cosied up to him .
Thats not to say there werent those amongst the genrals who opposed him , but the majority opted to take an oath of allegiance to him personally whilst breaking their previous oath of allegiance to the german people and constituion .

With their support and aquiescence Germany lost its last line of defence against fascism and was doomed .

Like i said i don't think the generals were in much of a postion to strike at Hitler, he had control of the police, had influence all over and had huge support from the public and others. If anything a General's revolt against Hitler would have just caused another rebellion like the Spratcus Rising However which Hitler had control of the army, at the end of the day Hitler could outrank them all, maybe the General's could have some loyal supporters but anything short of a rebbellion wouldn't have stopped Hitiler, the best way to take him out was when he was weak and still a normal member of the Nazi Party, but the General did not know Hitler that well, General Ludendorff withdrew his support from Hitler as well.

Pride Fighter

Attaturk was a greater general IMO the greatest of the 20th Century.