LT-40 build starting soon

workaccount

I am found this guide on the net...http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3439708/tm.htm

He uses carpenters glue instead of CA. What do you think...

"The other difference you will notice in the way I build is that I don't use the CA adhesives that are popular these days. I use Elmer's Carpenter's Glue (another good brand to use is Titebond II) for building. For steps in this kit like installing the CA hinges I will use CA, but for the main build I will use Elmer's and epoxy for the build. I used to use CA when I build, but I made the decision to switch to wood glue about 2 years ago. My main reason for switching was the fumes, they can be very harsh on your eyes, nose,and lungs and I just got tired of the discomfort. When you build with CA your parts have to be positioned correctly when you apply the CA, otherwise your part is stuck where it is out of place. With wood glue you have time to get your parts positioned correctly before the glue starts setting. Also, CA will make the wood it is applied to very hard and when you start sanding it can be difficult to get a good finish. The surrounding wood will sand away quicker than the wood with CA applied to it. With wood glues, the glued joint will sand just like the wood itself."

loopingfred

Hi,
Use the best of both world :
A layer of "carpenter" glue (white/wood glue for the rest of us ) and a few drops of CA...
The pieces will hold instantly, and once the white glue is dry, you have a strong bond.

Fred

coolwings

I used to use white glue for no vapour building. The other advantage is wipe clean with a damp cloth.
In recent years I found and switched over to Ponal Express. It is like white glue in appearance, and still cleans with a wet cloth.
But the Ponal sets far faster than the PVA, and after it is set it is harder, so it can be sanded flush.
The PVA was always a bit too rubbery to sand quite right.

And as LooopingFred says .. you can choose to use either pins or cyano to hold the bits together while these glues set. They are perfectly compatible. Sometimes I use pins, sometimes thin cyano.

Plug

I used super glue for the glider I built. The packets of glue cost more than the glider itself:D

workaccount

coolwings wrote: »

The PVA was always a bit too rubbery to sand quite right.

I can't understand how it would be strong enough to put a plane together if it was anyway rubbery at all.

coolwings

Well hard to explain but ....

Picture you have two sheets of eg balsa with a line of glue visible where they join.
You are sanding the balsa absolutely smooth before putting the iron on covering on over.
So you rub your sanding bar along the balsa and over the glueline.....

The fresh sandpaper on the sanding bar acts like thousands of tiny knives all horizontal cutting along the surface of the balsa cutting off the teeny wood particles that are standing proud.
The sandpaper also acts like a couple of hundred of micro knives digging down into the balsa making the surface recede to a lower level ... making a depression.

So you hope to slice off all vertical "stickups" and remove the minimum of other items so a depression is not made.

A hard glue like Ponal sticks its material up better to get chopped off along with the balsa fibres.
A very very hard glue like epoxy resists the sandpaper and the balsa recedes both sides leaving a vertical wall of epoxy glue protruding up higher than the balsa each side. (Thats why we tape over the soft epoxy so it sets with no excess)
A soft rubbery glue like PVA rolls over under the sandpaper like a wave in the sea rolling over. It gets abraded but not enough to be cut off. Then when the sandpaper is passed it pops back up above the level of the surrounding balsa. So you sand some more, and the balsa starts to recede. You end up putting on fresh sandpaper for each job, a chore that is not necessary otherwise.

The Ponal is harder than PVA and softer than epoxy. So it suits the job when balsa is the surrounding wood. With hard plywood I might pick a different glue, but then the plane is balsa, and plywood made from balsa.

So it depends on how perfect a finish you want and how trouble free you want to get it, which material you choose. By using Ponal a perfect finish can be got in balsa for less time and effort expended, and at acceptable cost comparison to the cheapest alternative - PVA.

Just one of the tricks we pick up over time.

workaccount

coolwings wrote: »

Well hard to explain but ....

Picture you have two sheets of eg balsa with a line of glue visible where they join.
You are sanding the balsa absolutely smooth before putting the iron on covering on over.
So you rub your sanding bar along the balsa and over the glueline.....

The fresh sandpaper on the sanding bar acts like thousands of tiny knives all horizontal cutting along the surface of the balsa cutting off the teeny wood particles that are standing proud.
The sandpaper also acts like a couple of hundred of micro knives digging down into the balsa making the surface recede to a lower level ... making a depression.

So you hope to slice off all vertical "stickups" and remove the minimum of other items so a depression is not made.

A hard glue like Ponal sticks its material up better to get chopped off along with the balsa fibres.
A very very hard glue like epoxy resists the sandpaper and the balsa recedes both sides leaving a vertical wall of epoxy glue protruding up higher than the balsa each side. (Thats why we tape over the soft epoxy so it sets with no excess)
A soft rubbery glue like PVA rolls over under the sandpaper like a wave in the sea rolling over. It gets abraded but not enough to be cut off. Then when the sandpaper is passed it pops back up above the level of the surrounding balsa. So you sand some more, and the balsa starts to recede. You end up putting on fresh sandpaper for each job, a chore that is not necessary otherwise.

The Ponal is harder than PVA and softer than epoxy. So it suits the job when balsa is the surrounding wood. With hard plywood I might pick a different glue, but then the plane is balsa, and plywood made from balsa.

So it depends on how perfect a finish you want and how trouble free you want to get it, which material you choose. By using Ponal a perfect finish can be got in balsa for less time and effort expended, and at acceptable cost comparison to the cheapest alternative - PVA.

Just one of the tricks we pick up over time.

coolwings wrote: »

I used to use white glue for no vapour building. The other advantage is wipe clean with a damp cloth.
In recent years I found and switched over to Ponal Express. It is like white glue in appearance, and still cleans with a wet cloth.
But the Ponal sets far faster than the PVA, and after it is set it is harder, so it can be sanded flush.
The PVA was always a bit too rubbery to sand quite right.

And as LooopingFred says .. you can choose to use either pins or cyano to hold the bits together while these glues set. They are perfectly compatible. Sometimes I use pins, sometimes thin cyano.

Where do you buy your ponal express? Can you get it in the likes of Woodies?

coolwings

workaccount wrote: »

Where do you buy your ponal express? Can you get it in the likes of Woodies?

I pick it up in GreenHobbyModel when I'm in there. Never looked elsewhere since I had no need to.

Aliphatic from hardware sellers might come close, but you shouldn't assume that. Test first.
I moved PVA to aliphatic and aliphatic to Ponal Express.

workaccount

coolwings wrote: »

I pick it up in GreenHobbyModel when I'm in there. Never looked elsewhere since I had no need to.

Aliphatic from hardware sellers might come close, but you shouldn't assume that. Test first.
I moved PVA to aliphatic and aliphatic to Ponal Express.

Do you not own and work in GHM?

loopingfred

Hi there,

Sorry, missed the bits on post #7...

1 advice... Use whatever wood glue you will find in any DIY/Model shop ! They will all do it fine !
I have Ponal, Evo Stick, Bostick, really cheap stuff, you name it, I have certainly some in my workshop.. All works the same for our usage !

You don't need to be part of an elite or ingeneer to choose a wood glue !

Fred

coolwings

Fred:
I am inclined to consider kit builders as an elite of a certain type.
Not many modellers feel they are able to build from the parts these days.
No matter that the kits are much easier to make than before, and the instruction books better than ever.
The good kit instruction books are almost encyclopedias of modelling, they are so comprehensive!
BUT It seems to be a (lack of) confidence thing in new modellers.

Workaccount:
I work there 2 1/2 days a week. Other time I'm in the office doing accounts, tax, paperwork and webmaking. Did I mention accounts and paperwork?
Patrick runs the model shop.

loopingfred

coolwings wrote: »

Fred:
I am inclined to consider kit builders as an elite of a certain type.
Not many modellers feel they are able to build from the parts these days.
No matter that the kits are much easier to make than before, and the instruction books better than ever.
The good kit instruction books are almost encyclopedias of modelling, they are so comprehensive!
BUT It seems to be a (lack of) confidence thing in new modellers.

Well, Norman, I have to agree and disagree on that one !

I think it is pretentious to consider kit builder of an elite of any kind !
I say it as I see it, but the tirade about wood glue (yes, the basic stuff... the white glue...) make the beginner think that yes, you need to be part of a certain "elite" just to first, choose the glue (well, it seems it's going to take ages !) and second, to glue and sand the bloody piece of wood ( looks like you need a microscope now to see if your bond looks nice !)... I think that the kind of thing that can put off candidates to kit building !

But I totally agree with you with the lack of confidence sometimes shown by beginners, but who can blame them (see up)!
We must show them the way !

So, in this particular case, the answer to Workaccount would have been " yep, that's white glue, the cheap stuff you find everywhere.. Just glue your pieces of wood and have fun !"

coolwings

In this discussion the word "elite" is probably better replaced by "minority".

The glue part ... of course all white glues will do it. Some are nicer too. But they all work...
We are having the kind of debate that the "I want it really accurate scale" guys have when talking to the "get it built looking ok guys" when they are at a club flying their models. Both sides have their points. Also over time I guess we all get more fussy about how we do things, and that shows in what I said too.

But I wouldn't want to put off a modeller from trying to make a kit, we need more people willing to try every kind of modelling.
It is a pity that so many modellers get stuck in one specialised part of our hobby and never find all the other fun ways to use the ability to make smaller versions of things that work/move.

loopingfred

True.. Large debate !
Need to do that in a pub with something to drink !

Talking about debate, we have another "discusion" about scale stuff on another forum.. To know if the color accuracy really matter in static judging, for a scratch build plane compared with one ready made (usually with big bucks)...good old debate about the flyer builder rule

I fly models for 23 years now, from free flight, control line, planes, helicopters, gliders and so on, for pleasure or championships and this is another great thing with this hobby, is the huge variety of activities you can have in so many areas, but on this time of days, who learn models like I did with a Guillows peanut ?

RTF and so on are really good for the hobby, but in another hand, this is also losing our soul, the essence of this hobby.

workaccount

In the link I originally posted at the top the author says to use an x acto no. 11 knife.

I cannot find this anywhere. It's not even on the x acto site. I'm assuming he means the no.1 knife with a #11 blade.

Do you think?


Also any specific razor saw manufacturer I should buy from. I want to be able to get spares blades in the future.

loopingfred

Yes, that is correct #11 blade on a knife.

I don't know any specific manufacturer/brand for that, I usually buy Stanley type cutters from "everything 2 euros" shops Work fine, and for 2 quids, you have 10 differents shapes and size (handy to cut pine strips for example)... Once too old -->bin !

coolwings

I don't know about Exacto versions but surgical scalpels are easily found everywhere and spare blades usually no problem.

I'm using a scalpel handle myself. I would swop new blade in whenever I need a really fresh edge

workaccount

Thanks for the info regarding knives.

I am going to go with the ca guys. I opened the sig box this evening and have been looking through the instructions. They look very good.

So good I want to follow them ''exactly''. I'm going to use ca.

Firstly I looked up sig glue and found this page http://www.sigmfg.com/IndexText/SIGCA010.html
It explains that medium is the best gen purpose. It says 5-15 seconds cure.

I then went to ebay and found this http://cgi.ebay.ie/50g-THIN-CYANO-SUPER-GLUE-CA-CYANOACRYLATE-7-YEAR-LIFE_W0QQitemZ360052508381QQihZ023QQcategoryZ34056QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The medium here says 3-7 seconds and the thick is 6-12 seconds. So is the thick one the right way to go and is 50g enough?
How much epoxy will I need aswell?

Cheers.

loopingfred

Well..If I was you, I would not build the entire plane with CA glue ! (Epoxy, good for the firewall and wing joiner)

CA after a while will become breakable (?).

One day, a guy at the flying field brought his plane.. Flew the thing and did a hard landing (still learning at the time...).. Well, we were a bit surprised to see the plane just exploded and went back to a good old kit !
Plane glued entirely with CA... Good thing, is that you are back with a kit, easy to repair !

Also, CA don't hold long against the Nitro...

Anyway, up to you. The CA will also not fill the gap you will have on some parts between the pieces, even the thick one...

About the CA, take any of them... If it's not quick enough for you, use accelerator (don't buy any, accelerator for CA glue is.. water !)

Fred

workaccount

loopingfred wrote: »

Well..If I was you, I would not build the entire plane with CA glue ! (Epoxy, good for the firewall and wing joiner)

CA after a while will become breakable (?).

One day, a guy at the flying field brought his plane.. Flew the thing and did a hard landing (still learning at the time...).. Well, we were a bit surprised to see the plane just exploded and went back to a good old kit !
Plane glued entirely with CA... Good thing, is that you are back with a kit, easy to repair !

Also, CA don't hold long against the Nitro...

Anyway, up to you. The CA will also not fill the gap you will have on some parts between the pieces, even the thick one...

About the CA, take any of them... If it's not quick enough for you, use accelerator (don't buy any, accelerator for CA glue is.. water !)

Fred

How long does it take until it can just break? I will be painting a good bit around the fuel tank with fuel proof paint.

I'm hoping there won't be any spaces in my build. Perhaps I'm being completely naive!

I will also be getting lightweight filler.

Why would the likes of sig not recommend some type of wood glue as opposed to ca? What are the advantages to ca?

loopingfred

Until that break alone, is a matter of years, this is a known fact.
But the gluing power of CA is still limited anyway, and will certainly not match the one of wood glue for example.
There will be spaces in your build, but filler don't glue unfortunately.

As far as I can see, the only advantage of CA is that dry almost instantly...

As I said before, combine wood glue and CA, and you will have the best of both world, but once again, up to you, if you want to follow the SIG guys, well, go ahead, that will glue anyway !

workaccount

While I'm waiting for the rest of the stuff to arrive before I start building I'm going to start investigating the electronics I'll need and engine.

I suppose I should probably invest in a radio that can do heli's and planes. I'm not sure if I would require memory settings etc...35Mhz vs. 2.4Ghz etc. I'm thinking of picking up a decent one used.

I wouldn't like to spend much more than €250.

As for the engine for an LT-40...what would you recommend?

loopingfred

Hi,

For the radio, I will stay with the 35mhz... Too soon for the 2.4ghz IMO.

I'll go for that : http://www.islandmodels.ie/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage_new/product_id,389/category_id,68/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,1/

But that was pretty obvious !
Very good radio for the price though. Everything you need is included. And will do more than you will need.

For the engine, I'll use a .45. I'm a OS fan myself. Try not to take the LA serie, but the FS/FSR, more powerfull ! Think about your next model !
Saying that, everything else will be fine ! (Magnum, ASP, SuperTigre, Enya...)

If noise is an issue, go for a .52 4strokes

Hope this help,

Fred

workaccount

Cheers. I thought it would be a good idea to get a used graupner or something.

What would the graupner have that this wouldn't? Would this work with any servo's?

loopingfred

Sorry, did not understood you were looking for a used radio :o
Yeah, Graupner will be good too.
Maybe look for a MX12 or similar (same as the Hitec).
For the Hitec, well, you will have more than you will need, and of course, they are what we call "UNI", so they will work with all the servos you can find.

Look also what the other guys in the club you are going to fly use... Can be handy to help you programming the radio, and use the radio as a buddy box to teach you how to fly...

workaccount

Ok I've made a mistake. I finished one side of the wing today after starting yesterday.

I made a mistake of using 5 shear webs when I shouldn't have. Basically the last two spaces on the main spar don't call for and SW-1 and the last three spaces on the bottom rear spar doesn't require and SW-3.

What should I do now as there isn't enough left for the other half of the wing? Can I undo the ca seal to release the shears or should I just order more from SIG?

Cheers.

coolwings

Cut extra ones from the spare wood leftovers (eg the sheets in which the ribs are laser cut but still located in, with wood around the ribs). Then make the other wing match.

workaccount

loopingfred wrote: »

Hi,

For the radio, I will stay with the 35mhz... Too soon for the 2.4ghz IMO.

I'll go for that : http://www.islandmodels.ie/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage_new/product_id,389/category_id,68/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,1/

But that was pretty obvious !
Very good radio for the price though. Everything you need is included. And will do more than you will need.

For the engine, I'll use a .45. I'm a OS fan myself. Try not to take the LA serie, but the FS/FSR, more powerfull ! Think about your next model !
Saying that, everything else will be fine ! (Magnum, ASP, SuperTigre, Enya...)

If noise is an issue, go for a .52 4strokes

Hope this help,

Fred

Why do you think it's too soon for 2.4Ghz.

I see that hi tec is 6 channel. Would that be enough channels for everything?

What would you need 8 or more channels for I wonder?

coolwings

workaccount wrote: »

Why do you think it's too soon for 2.4Ghz.

Would the fact that Futaba are recalling 2.4 Ghz radios suggest all is rosy in that area? FM35 is proven. The new frequency is good but not all the bugs are worked out yet.

workaccount wrote: »

I see that hi tec is 6 channel. Would that be enough channels for everything? What would you need 8 or more channels for I wonder?

Four channels is plenty while you are learning to fly, and remains adequate all the way up to plane number three.

Six is used for flaps to slow down planes that are otherwise too fast to land safely. beginners have no reason to be flying (or trying to fly) those models.

8 channel radios ... for a large model .....
throttle
left aileron
right aileron
rudder
left flap
right flap
elevator (this could possibly be 2 channels if mix with aileron is desired)
retractable undercarraige
onboard camera
left spoiler-airbrake
right spoiler-airbrake


Hmmmm thats only 10 .... what did I forget?
Dropping bombs? Lights? Switching on/off temp, altitude, and speed sensors?
Starting motors for gasoline engines?

BTW .... not all of our models have them all!

workaccount

coolwings wrote: »

Would the fact that Futaba are recalling 2.4 Ghz radios suggest all is rosy in that area? FM35 is proven. The new frequency is good but not all the bugs are worked out yet.


Four channels is plenty while you are learning to fly, and remains adequate all the way up to plane number three.

Six is used for flaps to slow down planes that are otherwise too fast to land safely. beginners have no reason to be flying (or trying to fly) those models.

8 channel radios ... for a large model .....
throttle
left aileron
right aileron
rudder
left flap
right flap
elevator (this could possibly be 2 channels if mix with aileron is desired)
retractable undercarraige
onboard camera
left spoiler-airbrake
right spoiler-airbrake


Hmmmm thats only 10 .... what did I forget?
Dropping bombs? Lights? Switching on/off temp, altitude, and speed sensors?
Starting motors for gasoline engines?

BTW .... not all of our models have them all!

Cheers coolwings.

I want my radio to work for a heli aswell. Wouldn't I need 6 channels for this? I'd say I'll go with the logo 10.

After a quick search on Google there does seem to be some problems with the hi tec.

Is there any other radio you could recommend to someone overwhelmed in the swamp of features and marketing lingo? Either as a kit with receiver and servos or without.

I might get a courier to pick up some nitro fuel from your store if that's ok. A few gallons. Check your PM's there.

Thanks.

coolwings

Recommending a radio is something that goes like this. Everybody says their radio is the best! Well we would wouldn't we? It's like cars.

All I can say ... I have used the makes below at some time or other.
Sanwa
Hitec
JR
Multiplex
Futaba
unnnamed chinese grey market copies of Futaba.

After using all those .. I now use JR, in the european style case. Specifically an MC-22 10-12ch.
Now that's not a beginner radio I would be the first to agree. It's also not suggesting that the other types don't work. They all have their own following. Both the 2.4 ghz and 35FM.

The heli needs 5 channels to fly. So a 6ch will do that job fine for you.

PM received ... will reply from my own computer tomorrow.