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Was Hitler a good leader?
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16-05-2008 3:44pm#1
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Interesting topic Kickouthejams. It’s difficult to see any positive side to Hitler without sounding like a Nazi apologist, considering he was responsible for the deaths of over 50 million people, AND the depravity of the Holocaust. But if we can step back from the Holocaust, and war itself, and look objectively at some of the other things he did in Germany, after he came to power, there are some undeniable facts that would suggest he did some good for Germany and the Germans (ie: Those Germans that weren’t Jewish, Homosexual, Communist, Freemasons, Disabled, etc etc. and that has to be well and clearly noted)
However before I post anything regarding this, I just want to also make it crystal clear that…
I AM NOT PROMOTING ADOLF HITLER AS A GREAT MAN, AND I DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO OR POST ON STORMFRONT OR OTHER SIMILAR FORUMS. Just in case there’s anyone from the ADL or ANL reading.
(Sorry to seem melodramatic, but you have to be abundantly clear about these things these days)
Below are some interesting things Adolf did that IMO, made him so popular with many Germans before the war, and to some degree helps explain why so many of them saw him as a God, and consequently blindly followed him into the funeral pyre he was heaping up.
Improved Conditions for German Workers
Adolf promulgated legislation that gave workers a right to annual vacation time, up to 21 days per year. This was three times more than the next country in Europe (France) was to implement in 1936, as a copy-cat measure to soothe their own workers.
A giant vacation organization for workers was established, with the duty to provide affordable and enjoyable holidays for workers. Luxury trains, clean, well run holiday resorts in the mountains and at the seashore were built. The program included shops, hotels and convalescent homes.
Big cruise ships such as "Wilhelm Gustloff", "Robert Ley", "Cap Arkona" and others enabled German workers to take sea cruises. These "Stength Through Joy" ships were barred from British harbors because the British government did not want British workers to see what was available to German workers under National Socialism.
Before the war began more than half of all Germans had taken advantage of this program to enjoy a luxurious and easily affordable holiday.
Workers on projects far away from home had always been neglected. Now their needs were catered for. Recreation facilities were established that moved site as construction advanced. Fourteen crews provided movies and other entertainment at different camp sites throughout Germany. Materials were provided to provide comfort, recreation and education, if desired. Laborers had the right to visit their families at intervals. Laborers were given public recognition for the work they did. Labor in Germany became something respected and celebrated.
First Anti Smoking Laws
Adolf's mother died from cancer. With profits from his best-selling book "Mein Kampf", he donated 100,000 Marks to cancer research he personally commissioned at the University of Jena. Is there a link between cigarette smoking and cancer? Adolf thought so, and the research he commissioned conclusively proved it. There is a very strong link and smokers are very likely to get cancer.
The research was conducted in 1941 at the "Scientific Institute for Research into the Hazards of Tobacco", established at the Friedrich-Schiller University in Jena. This was the first such institute in the world.
With scientific proof to support his initiatives, Adolf made laws forbidding smoking in public places. He started a campaign to tell people how dangerous smoking is and tobacco use fell in Germany. This was the first official anti-smoking campaign in the world.
- Smoking was banned in the offices of the Air Force, postal services.
- Smoking was banned by uniformed police
- Restaurants and cafes were prohibited from selling cigarettes to women
- Tobacco coupons were denied to pregnant women.
- It was illegal for anyone under 18 to smoke in public
- Advertisements for tobacco products were strictly regulated
Adolf said: "Before going into retirement, I shall order that all the cigarette packets on sale in Europe should have on the label, in letters of fire, the slogan: 'Danger, tobacco smoke kills; danger: Cancer.'"
During the war tobacco rations were distributed to German soldiers. Adolf ordered that it be given in a manner that would dissuade soldiers from smoking. Smokers were given six cigarettes per man per day, but non-smokers got chocolate or extra food. Women in the Wehrmacht were not allowed to smoke at all.
The phrase "passive smoking" was coined by Fritz Lickint, author of Tabak und Organismus ("Tobacco and the Organism"). He collaborated in this book with the Nazi Anti-Tobacco League.
Because of strong Nazi support for Science and medical research, most scientists, physicians and biologists became Nazi party members.
Germans were encouraged to take exercise, eat plenty of vegetables, drink mineral water instead of alcohol and stop smoking. To reduce breast cancer, women were taught self examination. Nowhere else in the world had such a government sponsored health campaign existed up to that time.
When the Allies invaded Germany at the end of World War II, on seeing the terrible hunger and deprivations amongst the destitute public, they promptly imported 93,000 tons of tobacco to get Germans smoking again.
Cancer Prevention Strategy
Perhaps because his mother died from cancer, Adolf developed a deep interest in health related issues - particularly cancer.
Ground-breaking research on diseases was done in Germany, partly with private funding from Adolf Hitler who commissioned a study at the University of Jena to determine whether there was a link between lung cancer and smoking. Research results proved that there was such a link and this led to the first public anti-smoking campaign which was vigorously promoted by Adolf.
The first program in the world to encourage women to perform breast self-examination as an aid to detect breast cancer in its earlier stages was also launched in Germany with Adolf's active encouragement and approval. His support for reform and modernisation in the medical field was viewed by the medical profession in such a positive light that most medical practitioners joined the Nazi party.
Anomalies in a woman's menstrual cycle was also an indicator of cancer. Women were similarly encouraged to look for anomalies in their menstrual cycle to help detect cancer at an earlier stage. Much public education was done in this regard.
The public was cautioned against the dangers of radiation, mercury, cadmium and lead. Through the media and schools the German people were advised to avoid the use of artificial food colorants and preservatives in foods and drinks. Instead the use of pharmaceuticals, fertilizers and cosmetics that were based on organic or natural ingredients was encouraged. Sixty years later, most Western countries have still not equalled the high standards of this program.
First Laws regarding Cruelty to Animals
Germany was the first country in the world to promulgate laws protecting animals from uncontrolled vivisection and other cruelty. Adolf was a vegetarian because of his empathy with animals. He would eat eggs though, because egg production did not kill the hen that laid the egg. In 1934 Berlin hosted an international conference on animal protection. The motto draped over the speaker's podium stated: "Entire epochs of love will be needed to repay animals for their value and service" In 1936 the German Society for Animal Psychology was established, and in 1938 "Animal Protection" was introduced as a subject for German public schools and universities."
Things other Politicians have said about Adolf
"... Hitler is one of the greatest men. The old trust him, the young idolise him.
It is the worship of a national hero who has served his country."
- David Lloyd George,
Prime Minister and Statesman,
Great Britain.
"Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived...He had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made."
- John F. Kennedy,
President of the
United States of America
"In fifteen years that have followed this resolve, he (Hitler) has succeeded in restoring Germany to the most powerful position in Europe, and not only has he restored the position of his country, but he has even, to a very great extent, reversed the results of the Great War ... whatever else may be thought about these exploits they are certainly among the most remarkable in the whole history of the world."
- Winston Churchill,
Prime Minister and Statesman,
Great Britain.
Well there you go! It just shows what you can do, when you're an Incestous, Drug Abusing, Paranoid, Schizophrenic, Racist Meglomaniac
:D 0 -
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Even if we consider the advancements made, don't you think that the way it all ended kind of cancels them out? So he seemingly was a good leader for a few years, but then he destroyed the whole country and half of Europe with it.
Yeah, I'd have to agree with you there ojewriej. Despite his achievements domestically in Germany, the smell of blood travels very far, and his legacy has cast a long dark shadow over Germany, and the Germans to this day. Even Monty Python and Basil Fawlty have had a go at him
.
The thing I find most disturbing about the rise of Hitler, is the way the Nazi movement used Mass Media to promote themselves. So much so, that I have an uneasy suspicion of mass media myself today. You can see for yourself the kind of crap that ordinary Americans are fed by Fox News about the Iraq war, as an example.Hitler was an excellent delegator of tasks, able to put together a very powerful government, and able to oversee the construction of the single greatest army in the war.
I'd have to raise the point here, that he was an excellent delegator because he was indolent, didn't get up until 2 O clock in the afternoon, and disliked dealing with matters of Government himself. In fact he frequently delegated the same task to 2 or more people, and then stood back and watched them fight it out for his favour. In the end he often adopted the idea of the most enthusiastic person, as opposed to the best plan.
Where nearly all leaders have 1 public office which represents them to the Citizens of a country, Hitler had 5 offices ALL claiming to represent him, and the people in these posts nearly ALL hated each other. This kind of confusion was rampant throughout the Nazi regime, which ironically is always associated with Order and Discipline.
*slightly off topic below*
Another thing I was told by a old German, who wasn't a Party Member, but not an opponent of the regime nonetheless, was that children were encouraged to make out their Family Tree in school. The completed Family Trees were then passed on, by the teacher, to the local Doctor (who was always an SS member). They were then scrutinised to find any medical defects in families. If your 'Uncle Fritz' was discovered to be unmarried, maybe as a result of mental illness, he was then summoned to the a State Hospital to be sterilized. Now you can say Sweden, for example, were sterilizing some people up to the mid 1970's, but I've always found this particular example an appalling deceit and a gross abuse of any citizens personal information.
Having said all of that, retrospect is a wonderful thing, especially 60 years after the fact. But I'll put my hands up now and admit, if I was a young unemployed man in Germany in the 1930's, bombarded with Propaganda, and heard Hitler speak, with the Parades and the Flags etc etc, I'd very probably have ended up going along with it too.0 -
marcsignal wrote: »Having said all of that, retrospect is a wonderful thing, especially 60 years after the fact. But I'll put my hands up now and admit, if I was a young unemployed man in Germany in the 1930's, bombarded with Propaganda, and heard Hitler speak, with the Parades and the Flags etc etc, I'd very probably have ended up going along with it too.
And you would have had very little choice but to
As I've said before, when Hitler came to power he had the support of roughly 1/3 of the population (nothing like the popularity reading that todays politicians need if they even want a sniff of power)
He then quickly used the weak Weimar democracy against itself and gained total control, also quickly followed by the total integration of anything and everything into the Nazi apparatus.
Other than such comparatively trifle things like animal protection, cancer research and anti-smoking laws (all borne out of personal interest rather than for the "greater good") you can't really credibly credit him with having done any "good" at all.
To list a few famous examples:
The economic boom:
Financed (criminally and fraudulently so) in such a way that the only way to prevent Germany from going bancrupt was to go to war and rob the neighbours.
The autobahn:
Ever noticed that most of the early ones led from West to East and very few from North to South? Any quick guesses why? Hint: it wasn't infrastructure for the common people.
The Kraft durch Freude movement:
Yes, there was a cruiseship or two and some holiday resort. But let me tell you what there wasn't anymore: no unions, no private workers clubs, no private sports clubs, no extracurricular activity at all that wasn't absorbed into the Nazi controlled KDF apparatus. So you were either with them, or out there on your own.
The youth organisations:
Yes, it got the kids off the streets ...and straight into the arms of the Nazi movement. If you weren't in it you got nowhere (neither in school, nor university or in work). Young children were indoctrinated to such a degree that they ratted out their own parents to the Nazi system
Law and order:
The SA literally beat the opposition from the streets, only then to be slaughtered itself by the SS. The judiciary was infested with Nazi judges and others made tow the line. The gestapo could incarcerate your whole family if you were accused of wrongdoing. Whole groups of people (socialists, communists, homosexuals, active Christians, Jehovas witnesses) just disappeared into concentration camps, never to be seen again.
And that's only the "positive" things without going into the negative ones like the persecution of the Jews, the euthansia of handicapped people, etc, etc
I really CAN NOT understand these feeble attempts at finding any good in Hitler that one hears so frequently:
"Oh he was a great man ...well, he lost the war ..and he caused the death of millions ...ah, and the unfortunate thing about the Jews...BUT he was a great leader for the Germans"
He was me arse !0 -
Yeah, very true, and you’re right about total incorporation of most other things under the umbrella of the regime.And you would have had very little choice but toOther than such comparatively trifle things like animal protection, cancer research and anti-smoking laws (all borne out of personal interest rather than for the "greater good") you can't really credibly credit him with having done any "good" at all.
These laws do seem trivial, but a return to nature, and all things natural, figured very strongly in the German Psyche, and still do today. The people were shocked at the millions of deaths caused by the mechanization of warfare in WW1, and there was a strong desire among many Germans to preserve nature in German life and culture. Adolf just exploited this.
All things organic is still big business in every little town in Germany today.The economic boom:
Financed (criminally and fraudulently so) in such a way that the only way to prevent Germany from going bancrupt was to go to war and rob the neighbours.
Absolutely right, can’t argue with you there.The autobahn:
Ever noticed that most of the early ones led from West to East and very few from North to South? Any quick guesses why? Hint: it wasn't infrastructure for the common people.
Yeah I’ve heard that assertion before, that he was going to use them to move military equipment quickly from East to West, and visa versa etc. But there are 2 things I’m confused about here:
1) The commonly accepted assertion that the Autobahn was a Weimar concept that he stole. Now if that was the case, presumably he re-wrote all the original plans of the network, to fit that possible scenario of needing it to move military equipment East West & visa versa?
2) At the time they were being constructed, he wasn’t aware he would end up fighting a war on 2 fronts, so why build them with this in mind? In fact he went out of his way to try to avoid such a scenario.
Not contradicting you here, as such, just playing devil’s advocate, sort ofThe Kraft durch Freude movement:
Yes, there was a cruiseship or two and some holiday resort. But let me tell you what there wasn't anymore: no unions, no private workers clubs, no private sports clubs, no extracurricular activity at all that wasn't absorbed into the Nazi controlled KDF apparatus. So you were either with them, or out there on your own.
Not sure I can agree with everything here, the Kraft durch Freude movement was huge, well thought out, clever, and is cited by many old Germans I’ve spoken to as one of the most positive memories they have of those times, if that is conceivable.
Yes Trade Unions were abolished, but Adolf had it in for the Trade Union Leaders themselves, because they were mainly Leftists, more so than the concept of workers rights and conditions. In fact many of the Labour laws passed then, protecting German workers, are still in use today, I was surprised myself to learn.
I will agree, certainly, you were either with them, or you were nothing. But overall I agree with you, in the sense that it was definitely a sinister movement, dressed up as something very different to deceive people.
Great Orator: Yes!
Great Motivator: Yes!
Shrewd Cookie: Definitely!!
It's just a gigantic shame for ALL concerned, that Adolf Hitler was NOT a Gentleman......0 -
marcsignal wrote: »there was a strong desire among many Germans to preserve nature in German life and culture. Adolf just exploited this.
Not sure I can agree with everything here, the Kraft durch Freude movement was huge, well thought out, clever, and is cited by many old Germans I’ve spoken to as one of the most positive memories they have of those times, if that is conceivable.
In fact many of the Labour laws passed then, protecting German workers, are still in use today, I was surprised myself to learn.
You can summarize all that in on quick stroke:
He had to give the "common people" something to keep them happy and their minds off all the unpleasant things that were going on.
Opposition is so much harder to muster, when just running along with the flow is incentivised
As for the labour laws ...they were the National SOCIALIST Party after all. A few token gestures made more willing workers.
Autobahn planning?
tbh ...I haven't a clue what Hitlers Plans were or weren't in Detail. I know that he personally re-drew the routing of two motorway sections (A8 "Drackensteiner Hang" and "Irschenberg") against all the advice from traffic experts to grant users of the motorway a favourable view of the beauty of their fatherland.
Is that a positive thing?
Both these spots even today are notorious for long tailbacks
Fact is, the autobahn came in handy for transporting troops and material (traffic volume in those days certainly wasn't high enough to justify the cost just for quicker personal transport) and to create employment.0 -
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I know that he personally re-drew the routing of two motorway sections (A8 "Drackensteiner Hang" and "Irschenberg") against all the advice from traffic experts to grant users of the motorway a favourable view of the beauty of their fatherland.
'Typical Shabby Nazi Trick', as Captain Mainwaring would say:)Both these spots even today are notorious for long tailbacks
That'll be the all the 'Rubbernecks' slowing down, looking for the 'Favourable View' 0 -
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