Equality for EU citizens means we should Vote No

Galliard

EU citizens should have an equal say on the Lisbon treaty. We know that the British government pledged to have a referendum in its election manifesto and now refuses to have one. In several other countries governments have refused to allow a vote because they know they cannot control the result. Zimbabwe tactics in the heart of Europe.

We are all EU citizens but only the Irish EU citizens have a vote on Lisbon. Let's support our fellow citizens - vote No to No say, and make it clear that we want everyone in the EU to have the chance for their voice to be heard. It is our future and we share it with them.

One EU many voices. Let them all be heard.

Moriarty

Why aren't we seeing mass protests across europe? Going on what many campaigning for a no vote are saying you'd expect to see riots and mass unrest. The French are never one to shy away from making their feelings known for instance and yet there's nothing but a deafening silence from the continent.

Surely some supporters of the no campaign aren't attempting to dictate how other countries should be run purely for their own political interests at home?

Many campaigning for a no vote have known all along that they have little to attack the treaty itself on so they've decided to fling as much mud as possible at the treaty and the EU to further their base euro-sceptic beliefs. Then we hear squeals from no campaigners about Dirty Politics from the EU Political Elite - the irony of it all.

Our referendum is not about the political machinations of other EU countries, it's about what's best for our country and the EU of which we are a member. The only issues which are relevant are those surrounding the changes proposed by the lisbon treaty.

Galliard

You believe people should have to riot in order to have a vote?

This treaty is the blueprint for our common future. Treat all EU citizens equally by allowing all our voices to be heard.

There are times when we have to do the right thing. This is one of those times.

PeakOutput

Galliard wrote: »

You believe people should have to riot in order to have a vote?

This treaty is the blueprint for our common future. Treat all EU citizens equally by allowing all our voices to be heard.

There are times when we have to do the right thing. This is one of those times.

they already had their vote when they elected their respective governments

if they dont like how they are now running their country they can change them its not our place to tell an elected government how to run their country

i agree with moriarty its a seperate issue to the referendum

Galliard

One treaty that will govern us all

One citizenship we all share

One person one vote

Scofflaw

What about respecting other countries' national methods of treaty ratification?


cordially,
Scofflaw

Galliard

This is a treaty about citizens.

One citizen one vote.

Scofflaw

Galliard wrote: »

This is a treaty about citizens.

One citizen one vote.

So an EU-wide referendum, then.


cordially,
Scofflaw

sink

Scofflaw wrote: »

So an EU-wide referendum, then.


cordially,
Scofflaw

I think that would be the best way.

turgon

PeakOutput wrote: »

they already had their vote when they elected their respective governments

Ok PeatOutput, let me put it this way, of the TD's we the Irish people voted in, more than 95% are for the treaty. Now do you really think 95% of the people are totally for the treaty? I think not. The public representatives don't exactly mimic their people, the often have different views to us.

I dont know about an EU wide referendum - maybe only for the 2002 15. The rest have joined recently so they need not. I still think its bad for though.

Scofflaw

turgon wrote: »

Ok PeatOutput, let me put it this way, of the TD's we the Irish people voted in, more than 95% are for the treaty. Now do you really think 95% of the people are totally for the treaty? I think not. The public representatives don't exactly mimic their people, the often have different views to us.

I dont know about an EU wide referendum - maybe only for the 2002 15. The rest have joined recently so they need not. I still think its bad for though.

It's been pointed out elsewhere, but if more people in any given constituency - or even the majority of a given TD's voters - support Lisbon than oppose it, the duty of the TD is to support Lisbon. Similarly, the duty of an SF TD will be to oppose the Treaty, since the majority of any SF TD's voters can be taken to oppose the Treaty.

In theory, it would be perfectly possible for 50.01% of voters in each constituency to support the Treaty, and for that to quite correctly produce 100% of TD's in favour.


cordially,
Scofflaw

Galliard

One Union one citizenship might be headed that way someday where you have a single Union vote. Meanwhile we have a mixture. We can make use of the mixture creatively. Use our vote to give everyone a say.

Treat every EU citizen like an Irish EU citizen. Ask their opinion on Lisbon.

One treaty - one citizenship

One citizen - one vote

Democratically,
Galliard.

turgon

Galliard wrote: »

Democratically,
Galliard.

A Scofflaw wanabee in the making!!!!

Galliard

What a thought!

Ambidextrously,
Galliard.

IRLConor

Galliard wrote: »

You believe people should have to riot in order to have a vote?

No, but the French go on strike if someone farts upwind of them so the fact that they're not protesting is a reasonably clear sign that they're not quite as bothered as you think.

Surely we should treat the citizens of the other member states as grown-ups and let them deal with their politicians themselves?

Scofflawily,
IRLConor

Galliard

You don't think much of the French?

Time for some Solidarnosc.

For our EU brothers and sisters, Say No to No say.

IRLConor

Galliard wrote: »

You don't think much of the French?

The French have much to be admired for, but their approach to handling disputes is not one of them. I like the French quite a bit but I'm not blind to their faults.

Scofflaw

IRLConor wrote: »

The French have much to be admired for, but their approach to handling disputes is not one of them. I like the French quite a bit but I'm not blind to their faults.

True. The French revolt, and the Dutch assassinate when upset. Neither appears to be happening.

blithely,
Scofflaw

Galliard

!

Laconically,
Galliard

thebman

Galliard wrote: »

You don't think much of the French?

Time for some Solidarnosc.

For our EU brothers and sisters, Say No to No say.

That's a load of crap. We should vote no because other countries didn't get to vote?

That makes no sense, vote on the contents of the treaty and disregard what other countries are doing when it comes to voting on the treaty.

crap all over them whatever other way you like but it's illogical to vote no to the treaty because the French won't get to vote on it.

Its up to the French to get to vote on the treaty if they want to, all we can do is say we support it. Personally I think all countries should get to vote on this but I won't automatically vote no because of it, it just doesn't make sense to. I'll read what the treaty is about and make my mind up based on what the treaty is about.

How it is logical to vote no to a treaty in protest that other countries didn't get to vote on the treaty? If anything it shows other governments that you can't trust people to vote on an issue because they could vote against it in protest of something that is completely irrelevant to what they are voting on.

Galliard

brim4brim is happy to attribute bad motives to his fellow EU citizens too - he assumes they might vote against the treaty for the 'wrong' reasons, so he will deny them the right to vote, just in case. Internment?

Gobán Saor

Originally Posted by Scofflaw.....
So an EU-wide referendum, then.

sink wrote: »

I think that would be the best way.

The problem with that is we are dealing with sovereign states which are proposing (under Lisbon) to pool some of their sovereignty and transfer it to the EU. Each country is (and must be) free to do this in accordance with its own laws and constitution. Ireland's way is via referendum to amend our constitution. An EU wide referendum cannot alter our constitution (unless, of course, we first amend our constitution to allow for this.) Nor is it for any other country to tell us how we go about altering our constitutional arrangements.

Similarly, it's not for us to tell other countries how they should alter their constitutional arrangements. If they can and wish to do so by legislation, by parliamentary ratification or by a simple decision of an elected Government, then that's a matter for them. If necessary their courts can pronounce on its validity in accordance with their laws and their constitution.

Why should we presume to tell them how to order their affairs? We wouldn't accept it from others; why should we seek to impose it on others?

humanji

Galliard wrote:

brim4brim is happy to attribute bad motives to his fellow EU citizens too - he assumes they might vote against the treaty for the 'wrong' reasons, so he will deny them the right to vote, just in case. Internment?

Do you honestly think everyone in the EU who isn't Irish are so pathetic and useless that they need us to do everything for them? They can take care of themselves, and in a lot of cases are doing better than ourselves. They've made their choice. If them want change then they are well capable of doing it themselves.

sink

Gobán Saor wrote: »

Why should we presume to tell them how to order their affairs? We wouldn't accept it from others; why should we seek to impose it on others?

You should read some of my other posts and you will see that I agree with you. The EU wide referenda was just a flight of fancy, I realise there is no legal basis to hold one. And we would need to hold another referendum to give significant powers to the EU to allow them to modify our constitution, which I don't think would be a good idea.

Galliard

They are not just pooling sovereignty between countries - this is the bit you keep avoiding: they are now pooling citizenship between everyone by having this 'additional' EU citizenship.

They say they will treat all citizens equally, but we can see they do not mean that here.

So we can take the power into our own hands.

One citizen one vote.

A lesson in democracy from the grass roots.

Scofflaw

Galliard wrote: »

They are not just pooling sovereignty between countries - this is the bit you keep avoiding: they are now pooling citizenship between everyone by having this 'additional' EU citizenship.

Which we already have.

Galliard wrote: »

They say they will treat all citizens equally, but we can see they do not mean that here.

The EU have no power over the national ratification mechanisms. They're entirely between the governments and the citizens of the individual countries, and out of the rest of the EU member states, the only other people who usually have a referendum are the Danish.

The claim that this has got anything to do with "the EU" is simply false. If they had the power to prevent referendums as you pretend, and wished to stop referendums, as you pretend, we would not be having a referendum - as we undoubtedly are.

Galliard wrote: »

So we can take the power into our own hands.

One citizen one vote.

A lesson in democracy from the grass roots.

Oh please, spare us the slogans. We have our referendum, other countries have their chosen methods.

regards,
Scofflaw

thebman

Galliard wrote: »

brim4brim is happy to attribute bad motives to his fellow EU citizens too - he assumes they might vote against the treaty for the 'wrong' reasons, so he will deny them the right to vote, just in case. Internment?

That's not what I was saying. I'm saying us voting no in protest shows that voters sometimes vote not on the issue itself but in protest of another issue which is why other governments might not want to give their countries a vote.

If anything, we set a bad example by voting no in protest to other countries not getting a vote IMO because we would not be voting on the contents of the treaty which is what we are actually supposed to be voting on.

If the French government sees that, they is likely to make them think that they choose right by not allowing the French people to vote instead of making them think twice.

I am in favor of a vote for everyone, I just think we should vote on the treaty itself as that is the job we were asked to do. Anything else, just seems like we aren't taking the responsibility seriously in my opinion. If we lead by example and show that when given a complicated treaty, the people can vote responsibly on the actual issue then it would make other countries more likely to allow their people to vote when combined with the pressure of the people in those countries campaigning to be allowed vote.

As been said before, other countries don't exactly seemed to care that they aren't allowed vote. Either that or the censorship is working really well!

Galliard

The treaty is about shared citizenship. I think it is only fair to let our fellow citizens have a direct say in what they feel about this.

They are the EU citizens who will be affected by this - it makes no difference to their governments.

The people who are affected should be heard. Not complicated. Democracy.

oscarBravo

How do you propose to get around the fact that referenda are illegal in Germany?

sink

Galliard wrote: »

The treaty is about shared citizenship. I think it is only fair to let our fellow citizens have a direct say in what they feel about this.

They are the EU citizens who will be affected by this - it makes no difference to their governments.

The people who are affected should be heard. Not complicated. Democracy.

Galliard you've been spreading this nonsence for a few days now and so far nobody has changed their minds. When are you going to give up?

thebman

Galliard wrote: »

The treaty is about shared citizenship. I think it is only fair to let our fellow citizens have a direct say in what they feel about this.

They are the EU citizens who will be affected by this - it makes no difference to their governments.

The people who are affected should be heard. Not complicated. Democracy.

If they really feel bad about it, they'd be protesting themselves.

If they don't want to protest, they can change government in their next election and vote for someone who'll withdraw from the EU.