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Equality for EU citizens means we should Vote No

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    #122
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Fact is we have no choice at general elections.

    I have loads of choice of politicians who broadly represent my views (FF, FG and the Greens mostly fit the bill and Labour come close). Perhaps if there is no-one to represent your views you should consider a career in politics?


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    #123
    axer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    IRLConor wrote: »
    It wasn't an "are you sure?" referendum, it was a "We've addressed one of the major concerns expressed in the original campaign. What do you think now?" referendum.

    Anyone ignoring that fact is either:
    1. Deliberately ignoring that for political effect.

      OR
    2. Stupid.
    It only addressed one of the major concerns - there were others.
    IRLConor wrote: »
    Note the word "maybe".
    Exactly - I cannot read the minds of the people - just note their actions. The voted no but yet the same thing in a different packet was retified.
    IRLConor wrote: »
    I don't think the Lisbon Treaty is about bringing us closer to Europe (idiotic Yes campaign posters notwithstanding) but about improving the structure of the EU institutions.
    Ireland has been losing power since the nice treaty and will probably continue to do so until we have a federal european government. That is where we are heading.


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    #124
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    axer wrote: »
    It only addressed one of the major concerns - there were others.

    It addressed a sufficient number of major concerns (i.e. 1) to make the majority of the voters accept it.

    That's a drawback of democracy, we're only required to find a 50%+1 solution, not a 100% solution.
    axer wrote: »
    Exactly - I cannot read the minds of the people - just note their actions. The voted no but yet the same thing in a different packet was retified.

    Not same, similar. There are sufficient differences to render any previous votes invalid as indicators of popular opinion.
    axer wrote: »
    Ireland has been losing power since the nice treaty and will probably continue to do so until we have a federal european government. That is where we are heading.

    I don't believe it is where we're heading. (And Ireland has been "losing power" as you put it since the 1970s, Nice was hardly novel in that regard) Even if we are heading towards a federal european government (which I don't believe we are) I don't accept that that is necessarily a bad thing.


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    #125
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    axer wrote: »
    They voted no but yet the same thing in a different packet was retified.
    The number of no voters did rise though but the yes voters rose by a much bigger amount.
    No different to more people voting for party A than party B at a general election-only for them to return a bigger vote for party B at the next one.
    Democracy.
    Ireland has been losing power since the nice treaty and will probably continue to do so until we have a federal european government. That is where we are heading.
    I'm not convinced it's heading that way.I am convinced that some smaller parties in Ireland would not like to see it head that way because it would dilute their influence from almost nothing to absolutely nothing with no hope of anything their way.


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    #126
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    IRLConor wrote: »

    I don't believe it is where we're heading. (And Ireland has been "losing power" as you put it since the 1970s, Nice was hardly novel in that regard) Even if we are heading towards a federal european government (which I don't believe we are) I don't accept that that is necessarily a bad thing.

    I have to say I don't think there is any chance in hell it'll ever get that far.

    I'm sure certain people would like that in EU political circles but at the end of the day there is just too much opposition for that to ever occur. Its not only the people that are against that.

    For one thing, I don't think the UK is in favor of it. As the citizens are against it, no party would ever be for it because they would be instantly the most unpopular party in the country come election time.


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    #127
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    brim4brim wrote: »
    I have to say I don't think there is any chance in hell it'll ever get that far.

    I'm sure certain people would like that in EU political circles but at the end of the day there is just too much opposition for that to ever occur. Its not only the people that are against that.

    For one thing, I don't think the UK is in favor of it. As the citizens are against it, no party would ever be for it because they would be instantly the most unpopular party in the country come election time.

    It's unpopular in England alright but the largest party in Scotland is the SNP and they want to break up the UK and join the EU as an independent state. If this ever happens and I would say there is a distinct possibility, you might see the parties in England change tact as well. The future is unpredictable I wouldn't rule anything out.


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    #128
    Galliard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭Galliard


    New in Lisbon:

    Art 8A.3. Every citizen shall have the right to participate in the democratic life of the Union. Decisions
    shall be taken as openly and as closely as possible to the citizen.

    Show that they mean it.

    Let the EU citizens participate. Let them vote on Lisbon.




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    #129
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    In fairness to you Galliard, you seem to have done your research, and that article is pretty relevant. A pity you didn't have it at the start of the discussion.....:D:D


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    #130
    Galliard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭Galliard


    turgon wrote: »
    In fairness to you Galliard, you seem to have done your research, and that article is pretty relevant. A pity you didn't have it at the start of the discussion.....:D:D


    :p

    Saving it for a rainy day.


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    #131
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    The irony is that the Lisbon treaty has to be passed for that to come into effect.


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    #132
    Galliard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭Galliard


    We can road test it before we buy it.


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    #133
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    It still doesn't grant the EU the power to hold a binding, union-wide referendum on anything so you're still wasting your time arguing for one.


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    #134
    Galliard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭Galliard


    IRLConor wrote: »
    It still doesn't grant the EU the power to hold a binding, union-wide referendum on anything so you're still wasting your time arguing for one.

    Beside the point. Give us all a vote. The EU doesn't need to have the power.

    The people have the right. The governments have the power.

    Empower the people. Let them vote.

    Because they're worth it.


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    #135
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    Galliard wrote: »
    Beside the point. Give us all a vote. The EU doesn't need to have the power.

    To hold a referendum? Of course they need the power to do so. Any referendum held by the EU would have no legal basis whatsoever and could be freely ignored by all of the member states. What part of this do you not understand?
    Galliard wrote: »
    The people have the right. The governments have the power.

    Empower the people. Let them vote.

    The only people that can do that are the governments of the other member states. Unless I'm very much mistaken:
    1. They probably don't read here.
    2. They don't have to listen to you unless you're a citizen of their country.

    The people of the other member states may have a moral right to a referendum but unless I'm very much mistaken they don't have a legal right to one.
    Galliard wrote: »
    Because they're worth it.

    Shilling for L'Oreal now are we? ;)


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    #136
    Galliard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭Galliard


    Jennifer Aniston actually


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    #137
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Galliard, consider this a formal warning: engage in the discussion or stay out of it. Loudly demanding something while ignoring questions about the practicalities of what you're looking for falls squarely into the category of soapboxing, and will not be tolerated.


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    #138
    froggy 2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭froggy 2


    [mod edit: I'd already moved your original post to its own thread; you can continue the discussion there.]


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    #139
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Galliard wrote: »
    We can road test it before we buy it.

    We, the Irish people, are road-testing it....and we get to make a decision which could encourage all those other governments to act more like ours and do exactly what you're saying.

    Of course...we could say that we don't want this Treaty...which could be read as saying we don't want European citizens to be closely involved in politics (if one were to employ the "could mean X" type of argumentation offered about previous referenda)


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    #140
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Why does everyone say the NO vote means we dont want to be in Europe. Why dont they realize it would only mean we dont want Lisbon!


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    #141
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    turgon wrote: »
    Why does everyone say the NO vote means we dont want to be in Europe. Why dont they realize it would only mean we dont want Lisbon!

    It may have something to do with the fact that most of the No side (SF, PANA, McKenna, Coughlan, SWP, COIR, etc etc) have opposed every treaty, and the EU in general...so, while they don't want Lisbon, they also didn't want Nice, or Maastricht, or Amsterdam, or the SEA, or....well, you catch my drift.

    I appreciate that's irritating for those who wish to vote No specifically to Lisbon, but since all the usual suspects are claiming this time round that they "love the Eu really", it's too difficult to sort the sheep from the goats.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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