RTE's Prime Time - Shooting/licensing to be featured Tuesday night...

Our man in Havana

There is no gun lobby in Ireland. When will these people get that into their heads?

Bananaman

And I don't remember filling in a form to join a fraternity either

Johnathon Swift

Bond-007 wrote: »

There is no gun lobby in Ireland. When will these people get that into their heads?

Dictionary Definition of Lobby (noun)

• A large entrance hall or reception room or area such as an anteroom
• People who support some common cause or business or principle or sectional interest.
• A group of people who try actively to influence legislation or change.

Johnathon Swift

Bananaman wrote: »

And I don't remember filling in a form to join a fraternity either

Dictionary Definition of Fraternity (noun)

1. A body of people associated for a common purpose or interest, such as a guild.
2. A group of people joined by similar backgrounds, occupations, interests, or tastes: the fraternity of bird watchers.
3. A chiefly social organization of men students at a college or university, usually designated by Greek letters.
4. Roman Catholic Church A sodality.
5. The quality or condition of being brothers; brotherliness.

Sparks

The highlighted dictionary definition of lobby is not the one in common usage JS; and in both highlighted definitions of fraternity, it is explicitly implied there would be a "body" or "group" - no such group exists. There are seperate individual groups and people who appear, at first glance by those without prior knowlege, to have common goals. Further examination, however, points out the conflicting goals, the past history of non-cooperation and the general lack of a single cohesive structure.
By any meaningful definition, there is no gun lobby in Ireland.
Certainly nothing exists here which would even resemble what's referred to by the term when applied in the context it is most often seen in - namely in the second amendment debates in the US, a topic which isn't even permitted to be discussed over here.

Vegeta

If there was a lobby then why on earth would we bother sending separate complaints to the BCC.

We'd send one with all the signatures.

You can read for yourself how annoyed Grizzly 45 is with the lack of a harmonised group dynamic.

thehair

Sparks wrote: »

Yup, on the Examiner website:

some thinks are never going to change all the people that sent a complaint in are told in a very nice way to -UCK-OFF
SIG RTE

Grizzly 45

Well, you ask nicely 1st time,ask a bit louder the 2nd time,abit louder 3rd time,4th time slap them on the back of the head and ask nicely again.
Usually works well for me;):D.
Of course now PT/RTE and the media are going to now close ranks and protect Bro Clonan.Sure isnt he their darling on all this military and gun stuff???He could be...choke..snuffle...gasp...Wrong!!! OMG that means there are people out there who actually ...KNOW things about guns and are not police or military!!!OMG it could show us up as total Shamuses to the other sheep...er...liscense payers... Bury them redneck gun culture idiots complaints quick,deny everything,admit nothing!!!

Nothing much changes In Irish journalist and reportrism or in PTime policy since I had anything to do with it or them I am glad to say.:rolleyes:

thehair

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well, you ask nicely 1st time,ask a bit louder the 2nd time,abit louder 3rd time,4th time slap them on the back of the head and ask nicely again.
Usually works well for me;):D.


are you proposing a violent act on a PUBLIC FORUM GRIZZLY 45:eek:
NOW NOW I WILL TELL ON YOU

Gunter Mauser

Got a reply back from inquirys made Yesterday. Goes something like this.... don't think contact with the BCC will have any effect.... what does the BCC know about firearms / law etc .... prepared to actually attend if called.....better have the clubs permission first. If the NRGC or the Midlands do reply... most lightly be at the next FCP, here is where the sport is represented and where proper clarification to this sort of misinformation given. If the NRGC or the Midlands want signatures you will
hear about it soon enough don't you worry.

This is just the opinion of someone I know who's advice is usually well informed... bla ... bla... bla.

Grizzly 45

are you proposing a violent act on a PUBLIC FORUM GRIZZLY 45:eek:
NOW NOW I WILL TELL ON YOU[/quote]

Tell tale Tit....:D

Gunther,
fine if the NARGC or Midlands reply.It would be better they reply to the BCC.But it looks like then sour grapes on our part.You had air time why arent you happy now?And why didnt you ask to see the segment before it was aired?Which I do belive you are entitled to ask for?
Complaining to the FCP is only preaching to the somwhat converted.

So the FCP issue a statement..And?[from the Public out there].Who they?No one knows who the FCP apart from DOJ,Shooters and Gardai know who or what they are.The best way to get this clarified is when PT issue a public apology or clarification on RTE.

If either of those two groups want to get signatures and lodge a complaint ,they would want to get their skates on damn quick as time is running out on this as well.:(

Dont think they actually call the complainent to give testimony.

Should also add;Why NOW that letter from Paul Maguire?Accepting that the Examiner isnt the sharpest paper on getting in replies to it's letters colum.Isnt it a bit coincidental that the day after everyone [5] get their replies.Mr Mac Guires letter is published??Saying the abbreviated version of the PT response?

Somthin bothers me about that.

kerryman12

Request for further review of the piece issued to BCC. Lets see what happens.

ivanthehunter

rrpc wrote: »

For Tom Clonan and his cheerleaders

Cartridge|100 yds|200 yds|MPBR* yds
.17 HMR (17 SP at 2550)|+1.5"|-5.5"|165
.22 LR (40 HP at 1255)|-3.0"|-40.9"|90
.22 WMR (40 HP at 1910)|+0.5"|-19.0"|123
.223 Rem. (45 Sp at 3550)|+1.4"|+0.2"|235
.22-250 Rem. (55 SP at 3600)|+1.3"|+0.6"|254
.220 Swift (55 SP at 3800)|+1.2"|+0.9"|264
.243 WSSM (100 Sp at 3100)|+2.5"|+2.2"|296
.240 Wby. Mag. (100 Sp at 3400)|+2.4"|+2.6"|322
6.5x68 S (140 Sp at 2990)|+2.6"|+2.1"|294
.264 Win. Mag. (140 Sp at 3100)|+2.5"|+2.3"|303
.270 Win. (130 Sp at 3140)|+2.5"|+2.4"|305
.308 Win. (180 Sp at 2610)|+2.8"|+1.2"|259

*MPBR is Maximum Point Blank range, which is the distance the bullet travels before it drops more than 3" below the line of sight. For an 'expert' like Tom Clonan, that's the effective 'kill' distance. After that, the bullet is dropping too fast to be sure of a hit.

You can see that the .308 has an effective distance something in the same region as the 22-250 or the 220 swift and a good deal less than the .243.

The only reason a deer hunter would use this round is that it is probably the best one for heavier quarry such as the red deer: anything over 400lbs in weight and less than 600lbs.

Wow; i suppose I'll count my self lucky that i was never involved in the Nuremberg trials
I have heard enough talk about cling-on death swords and guns with pet names like child blasters:D
But i must take my hat off to Sparks for his mammoth efforts and if i ever met up with you i buy you that well deserved kebab you mentioned earlier.

The one point that sparks has already mentioned and i will reiterate here is the difference between the NATO round 7.62mm and the hunting caliber of the winchester .308. For all you G-men reading in its important to note that the 7.62mm round operates at a much higher pressure to increase it effective range, barrel life is not a concern within the military think tank. It is therefore completely obvious that the .308 is not a military weapon as it operates at insufficient pressures but is produced for the civilian shooting community to provide them with a firearm that provides the ability to place heavy shots on animals to lessen any possible suffering and hasten their passing with the least amount of stress.
Also ammunition in this country is restricted to ammunition for target shooting and for hunting, we can not purchase incendiaries or armor piercing rounds even if someone was fool hardy to want it.

To rrpc
A note on the origins of the phrase "point blank", which you mentioned in your informative report.
Point blank is a term that has existed in the English language for hundreds of years. It comes from archery and is derived from the archer eclipsing the target with the Blank(arrow head) whilst holding the bow in the shooting position(at full draw), or in other words he points the blank at the target. Ask sparks about it as he is now a confirmed junior archer:D

ivanthehunter

ivanthehunter wrote: »

But i must take my hat off to Sparks for his mammoth efforts and if i ever met up with you i buy you that well deserved kebab you mentioned earlier.

He loves Iskanders!

Sparks

Loved. They have sadly gone downhill since my undergrad days. And to make matters worse, the best place in the city for kebabs (Fayruz) has closed.

Anyway, back on topic...

Grizzly 45

Ok folks.As of today.I will have the alt address set up for you for those who wish to complain about the PT programme,without affecting your personal security.
It will be a Suite address opposed to a PO box,and it will be in Limerick.
How this works;
Pm me for the address.Include your REAL address so I can re direct the post and BCC reply to you.
Obviously you must include in your complaint your REAL address to the BCC,but there is nothing to stop you adding send corrospondence to this address.

This address will ONLY operate for the next two weeks as then the time to complain is over. It will only recive BCC letters..Nothing else.As I do not wnat to be held responsible for missing shipments of drugs,porn,divorce or legal proceeding papers,[I'll personally serve them on the recipient:D:D]firearms,or components thereof.:D. Nor will I hold anyones address in any shape or form after June 30th 08.
Best I can do,so c'mon..lets have a better response than a measly 5 complaints.

Manic Moran

Best I can do,so c'mon..lets have a better response than a measly 5 complaints.

Sorry, mate, I'm in the wrong country. I don't think they'll listen to me. Heck, California hardly listens to me, and I do a fair bit of correspondance.

Unless someone wants to put me forward as an impartial assessor to counter Clonan. I probably have better qualifications.

*MPBR is Maximum Point Blank range, which is the distance the bullet travels before it drops more than 3" below the line of sight. For an 'expert' like Tom Clonan, that's the effective 'kill' distance. After that, the bullet is dropping too fast to be sure of a hit.

Hmm.. I disagree with MPBR as being the indicator of effective range. It discounts the effects of crosswind which will have less effect on a heavy round, for example, and also discounts the efforts of a shooter who takes the time to estimate range to target and aims off accordingly. Particularly if you have a graduated reticle.

NTM

Grizzly 45

[

quote=Manic Moran;56220698]Sorry, mate, I'm in the wrong country. I don't think they'll listen to me. Heck, California hardly listens to me, and I do a fair bit of correspondance.

Unless someone wants to put me forward as an impartial assessor to counter Clonan. I probably have better qualifications.

Hi Manic, dont worry The Left Coast politicos dont listen to anyone anyway.Unless you are a Gay,Democratic party supporter with loadsa money and some sort of kookie agenda,prefably to do with the current buzzwords of Global warming..Being a gun owner over there these days must be to carry the mark of Cain.Thats why I left and moved next door to AZ :rolleyes::D.

You would be ideal,but unless Uncle Sam is going to give you leave to come over to counter Clonan at any given time.No doubt they would make or imply some sort of degoratory reference that you are servering in the US armed forces.Where of course Clonan would have the moral holier than thou superiority of having served in a "neutral" army that never killed anyone!:(.You know the way THAT would be twisted to make you look like the Bad guy.
You would be well screwed.Thanks for the kind offer though.:D

Grizzly 45

Enclosed my reply to my quiries.
Have a good read of how the BCC,RTE and Prime Time all are under the same blanket.
Two things for sure .. The media is NOT our friend,and dont expect factual or impartial reporting from any quater on gun issues.
I hope any body ,club or group will now THINK TWICE about letting a news crew anywhere near them without a trained and competant PR person to hand to lay down some hard and fast ground rules,as to pre viewing,what will be done and NOT done etc.
Am off the machine till Sunday.
Enjoy..:(

Grizzly 45

Remaining Scan

Sparks

That's spectacularly disappointing.
And I agree - though it's probably not news to anyone - clubs and associations need trained PR people. This "erra, it'll be grand" approach doesn't work at all.

Vegeta

What. A. Load. Of. Sh1te

that's disgustingly disappointing

Our man in Havana

Is there any avenue of appeal left open after this?

Sparks

Not through the BCC bond, we'd have to go to a court to go any further, and we couldn't go on the basis that it was a biased program, there's nothing in the law about that; and we couldn't really take a libel action because proving libel against a group is practically impossible under Irish law

kerryman12

I have just finished reading my " P*ss off" letter also. I can appreciate that we are coming at this from our own view point, but it quite disappointing.

Johnathon Swift

Vegeta wrote: »

What. A. Load. Of. Sh1te

that's disgustingly disappointing

Its amazing how peoples attitudes change. Suddenly the BCC and the responses to the complaints are a load of excrement, yet a few weeks ago the BCC was the greatest thing since sliced bread as a means for getting back at RTE and Primetime.

If you take the time to read the 28 pages from the BCC, you will see that not one single issue/complaint was upheld by the BCC.

Why cant you just accept that the report was balanced and leave it at that instead of sounding like the whole world is wrong except you and few who complained

Sparks

Johnathon, I think you'll have to stop accusing people of trying to "get back at" Prime Time. The objective of the complaint was to seek redress because we had been the victims of a highly prejudicial report which failed to even mention crucial information on the subject allegedly being covered. Not to get a dig in at anyone.

I think you'd also have to agree that Tom Clonan's article in the Irish Times subsequent to the Prime Time program highlighted the failings of the Prime Time report, since when he wasn't being edited by Prime Time, he was praising precisely the same people quite highly, with a full-page feature article in the Irish Times. It's a failing of the BCC process that this piece of information was not considered in their deliberations.

Johnathon Swift wrote: »

If you take the time to read the 28 pages from the BCC

I will, but at the moment the only copies of the BCC judgement available are the ones in the hands of the five people from here who submitted complaints, and the copy that's in the hands of RTE - the decisions haven't been released to anyone else by the BCC yet.

By the way, which one of the five of us gave you our copy? And even Grizzly's copy doesn't have 28 pages in it.
Hey, there's a thing - the reports that would be going to us wouldn't have that many pages. Only RTE's copy, since there were basicly five decisions in it, would be that long. Wierd, huh?

G17

My complaint was upheld, oh wait now, no it wasn't.

The broad scope of my reply-

Each side given an opportunity to express their opinion and address the issues raised by the other.
The programme opened and closed on a negative, simple maths in my head.


However; the complaints, no matter how few in number, have I believe given RTÉ food for thought, I'm sure they will at least give a small bit more consideration to the sporting shooting community next time, not least due to the fact that I'm sure editors don't relish having to read and reply to complaints, upheld or otherwise. Perhaps they will give us sporting shooters a tiny break next time.

Rest assured, I for one will complain each and every time there is a report on my national station that I believe is unfair to us competing shooters.

chem

To put it into perspective. Do Top Gear tell people how many people have been or might be killed in or by the new cars they show?

Its a bad time to be a gun owner in Ireland folks. Press and others just see guns and the U.S.A and say OH dear cant have that!

Look at the Swiss more guns around then most. Even given to them by the government:eek: and how many tragic events do we here come out of there? Very few.

Ireland is a backwards, small minded country. Id say we rank in the 1960`s in world thinking.

kerryman12

Look at the Swiss more guns around then most

Chem makes a very valid point here. I have spent some time in Switzerland and know quite a few people form that country. It is safe to say there is a firearm (assualt rifle) in every second house and several in any apartment block. Yet this is not a issue in fact it is normal run of the mill their.

Johnathon great to see you back to bring balance to this debate. All the rest of us here are upfront on where we stand and more importantly where we are coming from. It's some coincidence that you should reappear to-day though