RTE's Prime Time - Shooting/licensing to be featured Tuesday night...

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

[3] The sensational way they presented the number of firearms in the country
They talked about the increase in the number of shotguns and rilfes but then simply said there had been an increase of 1500 pistols. Under thir breath that pointed ouit that that is over 8 YEARS and then cut to [4].

That little factoid was hilraious in itself. I would suspect that they wanted that one said quickly: "Dramatic increase" and "8% over six years" don't tally. It works out at about 1% per annum when it's compounded.

Actually, according to the CSO, the population rose 8.2% between 2002 and 2006 which means that we're not keeping up proportionally.

cavan shooter

I didn't like the reference to Gun Lobby. There is no gun Lobby in Ireland only legitimate people carrying out their chosen sport and who want to do so in a safe and controlled manner. As for Tom Clonan enough said

Des Crofton came accross very well as dis Paul Anthony Mc Dermot

Rew

Not sure if its been posted already but if any one missed it you can watch it here:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0520/primetime_av.html?2376839,null,230

(you will need to install Real Player, its free)

rrpc

Rew wrote: »

Not sure if its been posted already but if any one missed it you can watch it here:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0520/primetime_av.html?2376839,null,230

(you will need to install Real Player, its free)

I already did

You can actually use Media Player as well, no need to stick more sh1te on your PC.

Rew

Bananaman wrote: »

[4] Dr. WhatsHisFace and any time he opened his mouth.
Where did they find him?

Dr Tom Cloonan, former Army Officer (Captain AFAIK). He's supposedly a Security and Military expert but as you can see from his comments last night he just talks a load of ****e. He said what they wanted and he's a regualr on RTE doing the same on many topics.

Rovi

rrpc wrote: »

Rew wrote: »

Not sure if its been posted already but if any one missed it you can watch it here:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0520/primetime_av.html?2376839,null,230

(you will need to install Real Player, its free)

I already did

You can actually use Media Player as well, no need to stick more sh1te on your PC.

'Tis on YouTube too-
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=J6xWZaX_x5M

kerryman12

well said REW. Of course there has to be balance on these interview - some one to speak for both sides of the arguement but in all fairness he made a effort to be sensational.
But to be honest the piece that annoyed me most of all was the way it was edited. Tom's comment about it only being a matter of time before we have a public incident - hinting @ columbine etc, being used as the last comment on the piece, left hanging to the viewer was not very balance IMO:mad:

johngalway

The editing and Tom Clonan are the biggest problems in my mind. The continual reference to weapons and the between the lines linking of criminals, subversives and "insurgents" to holders of legally held firearms is reprehensible.

I'm not going to write to RTE, it's obvious they're biased if they let that trash out on the airwaves. I'm writing to the broadcasting comission, once I find them lol.

johngalway

Look at this link, anyone wishing to complain about that Prime Time "report". It's for the Broadcasting Complaints Comission.

G17

Dear Primetime,



As a sporting shooter, I thought your piece on firearms last evening the 20th of May 2008 was shocking. Any member of the public who is unfamiliar with firearms would be rightly concerned by your report. I really enjoy my hobby and TV shows like last night's make people scared, of people like me.



Every member of the shooting community (11 so far and it's just after 9AM) I’ve talked to since seeing the report has been horrified at the technical/practical inaccuracies and the negative inferences.

This program suggested that a 9mm pistol was more dangerous than another calibre, this is totally ridiculous and someone involved in making this show surely knew that. Also the link suggested between military and sporting firearms was offensive to me, I shoot paper targets, always have. There is no military style shooting that civilians do in Ireland, full stop. Also the link to crime is simply not true in the context of your piece, a 7 feet long target rifle to hold up a bank or drug feud assassination by shots taken at 1.5 miles, it simply doesn't happen. I could type all day about what was wrong with your 'expert's' suggestions.



You are putting at risk a pastime that many many Irish people enjoy. RTE is owned by the Irish people and you have really disappointed a lot of them.





I'm a parent who enjoys sporting shooting, I am constantly in mind of Dunblane and other atrocities. I'm sure you are also well aware that the ban of handguns etc. in the UK has done nothing to stop gun crime, there has been a 4 fold increase in gun crime since 1998, check the Home Office's web site. If I thought a shooting ban or firearm 'type' restriction would stop gun crime I'd take up another hobby, I really would.





But aside from other inaccuracies; the point made regarding the schoolyard at the very close of the piece was inexcusable, my national news service has hit an all time low.





Shame on you for broadcasting this.



Yours etc.,

G17

Complaint to BCC going in soon concerning 24(2)(a) fairness, objectivity & impartiality in current affairs from the Broadcasting Act.

johngalway

This is what I'm intending to write, if anyone can point out anything I shouldn't have said then please do It will be appreciated.


Dear Sir/Madam,

I do not make a habit of writing in about programmes nor do I take any pleasure in complaining, however, I feel so strongly that I must take issue with last nights Prime Time "report", entitled "Gun culture on the rise in Ireland". The segment was about, and this is an extremely important point, legally held firearms. I am a holder of two rifles and one shotgun, I have been licenced by An Garda Siochana to hold these firearms as I'm a responsible individual and I have good reason to own them. Legally held firearms are used in this country for sporting purposes including clay pigeon shooting, target shooting (including the Irish Olympic shooters), the control of predators and pests which damage livestock and crops and hunting generally meaning for food such as duck, pheasant, venison etc. Anyone with a Legally held firearm in this country has to be passed fit to possess such a firearm by An Garda Siochana, all firearms certificates must be renewed annually. People holding these firearms dearly value their firearms certificates and are amongst the most responsible members of this society.

I find it completely unacceptable and highly insulting, as a holder of legally certified firearms, to be linked in any way to criminals, insurgents in Iraq or to be belittled or sensationalised in any way by RTE or any of it's contributors, editors or staff. RTE's report was full of factual errors. The range in which a .308 is dangerous is not 1.5 miles. The editing was woefully slanted against those citizens who hole legally certified firearms. The way the reported held the Styer Mannlicher rifle in the report was absolutely horrific. The bolt was closed (we presume the rifle was unloaded), he had his finger on the trigger and was waving it around the place with one hand, completely unaware of where it was pointing. This goes completely against all safety procedures to do with handling firearms. The use of the word "weapon" was extremely worrying, weapons are used to hurt people. Citizens Legally held firearms are used in the manner I have described in the first paragraph. You simply will not be licenced with the type of firearms in the segment for any other purpose. Also, armies are trained for combat which involves hurting and killing people, through this segment anyone with a legally held firearm of a calibre that may be used by any military around the world has been linked sensationally to hurting people.

This segment was not in fact about legally held firearms, it was an underhand attempt to paint responsible legally held firearms owners as, or link them to, criminals or dangers to society by such fantastic and again sensational comments as saying these firearms are going to "inevitably" be used in schools and public places.

Des Crofton made worthwhile contributions to the piece, as did Paul Anthony McDermot (excepting again the word "weapon").

Please view the segment which is on the RTE website here or on YouTube here.

Yours Sincerely,

fat-tony

I did a little "googling" on Dr Tom Clonan and found a piece in last September's Irish Independent which outlined that Mr. Clonan had done his doctoral thesis on the subject of female sexual harassment and bullying in the Irish army. This thesis was subsequently picked up by a journalist and reported. This lead to Tom Clonan being ostracised by his army colleagues and his story was subsequently reported in the "Whistleblowers" series on RTE.

As an earlier poster indicated, Tom Clonan's views on firearms use by civilians is coloured by his earlier military experience. That being said, the fact that Tom Clonan is involved with the School of Media in D.I.T., should make him think twice before using emotive language about Dunblane and schoolyard shootings. It's sloppy journalism, but it evokes an emotional response, so it sells airtime, papers etc.

I would think that it is important that Dr Clonan is brought into the FCP process so that he can see for himself the excellent cooperation between the shooting community and the DoJ. I will be speaking with my colleagues on the panel to encourage this.

As an aside; I have been flicking between the various radio programmes this morning and the main topic of interest for the nation? Dustin's performance in the Eurovision semi-final

Rew

fat-tony wrote: »

I did a little "googling" on Dr Tom Clonan and found a piece in last September's Irish Independent which outlined that Mr. Clonan had done his doctoral thesis on the subject of female sexual harassment and bullying in the Irish army. This thesis was subsequently picked up by a journalist and reported. This lead to Tom Clonan being ostracised by his army colleagues and his story was subsequently reported in the "Whistleblowers" series on RTE.

As an earlier poster indicated, Tom Clonan's views on firearms use by civilians is coloured by his earlier military experience.

Most people in the military don't have a problem with Civvie gun ownership so I don't think his time in the Army had an bearing on the interview last night. If anything I have found DF members to be either gun owners or very supportive of gun owners.

As for him being ostracised I think thats his spin on it. Would be interesitng to see if his thesis was before or after the Doyle report. Have you a link to the article?

rrpc

G17 wrote:

..I really enjoy my hobby..

It's better to use the word 'Sport'. 'Hobby' implies a less involved pursuit of a particular activity.

Grizzly 45

More specifically because they would cut it to look like a blackthorn op in baghdad.

You mean Blackwater:).At least they would be more knowledgeable than Dr Clonan on firearms and military matters.

Someone suggested going on one of these shows to show the other side of the coin.

If you were saying about my idea of a documentary.No doesnt happen.You get along with your lawyers a chance to view the pre airing tape.Anything that doesnt gell with you or the legal crew on either side can be edited out re shot or otherwise sorted out before it is aired.
As the film crew are so to say invading your personal space and life,you do gave a right to say what goes or doesn't go in the can.

fat-tony

Here's the link to the story:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/army-knew-of-sex-abuse-for-years-1070017.html

Tom Clonan's body language and approach in the Primetime piece would make me think that he is against civilian use of firearms. I know that many members of the defence forces have no issue with this, but there is a very real division in the use of weapons for military use and firearms for target shooting that some army people can't come to terms with.

Grizzly 45

Well isnt he now in the right place to know how to play the media for his best use,and is teaching it as well in DIT school of media???
Sort of like having Dr Gobbels in charge of Sky News[ mind you he proably is:)]
Personally,I think that guy should be shown up as much as possible as a phoney that he really is. It is the best way of getting rid of such" experts"
is when they are shown up.
Inviting him onto the FCP...Hmm you can be assured he will make you all out to be baccy chawin,daughter humping,redneck trailer trash gun nuts.Despite the obvious total opposite and contary.And before long he will be on RTE saying the FCP is a dangerous pro gun nut lobby that has the DOJ and Gardai in it's pocket.:(

G17

rrpc wrote: »

It's better to use the word 'Sport'. 'Hobby' implies a less involved pursuit of a particular activity.

The mail has long been sent but others may wish to take your advice on board.

Hezz700

Its Just more sensationlist bull**** cleverly edited by the media to create a storm of controversy out of nothing. Lets face it we all watched the program and thats the bottom line with those people........Ratings. I did not expect anything other than unbalanced gutter reporting and in that regard i was not disappointed.:rolleyes:

I must say i particularly liked (not) the bit with the guy waving the styer 300winmag around like an AK47. :mad: and all that take off weapons and insurgents and the rapid rate of fire of 9mm pistols:mad:

Fair paly to Des Crofton, he came across very will IMHO:), But that other dude layed it on a bit thick.

If this show had actually taken the time to go through the different disciplines off shooting sports and explain why a particular type of firearm is used for each discipline it might have looked better.

I think the good folk of the Nationwide team should be contacted and have them cover the Sport in one of their shows. I know they did a piece back in 2000 on Derek Burnett shooting at the olympics in Oz which was quite favourable.

Its just a thought, But we need to create our own good pubilcity and not wait around for other outside interests to dish out these kind of reports while we quitely hope that we're painted in a good light.

Hezz

Sparks

Sent as a complaint to the BCC:

The Prime Time segment on May 20th entitled “Gun culture on the rise in Ireland” was grossly inaccurate and produced in a manner which portrayed the shooting community in an exceptionally negative light. It was stated outright that the current licencing laws made it merely a matter of time before a shooter walked into a schoolyard and started shooting. The statements made during the segment, and chosen by the editing team, portrayed the shooting community as being little more than a group of criminals in training. Given that every single member of the shooting community has been signed off on as safe and responsible and not a threat to public order or public safety by a Superintendent of the Gardai, that's utterly reprehensible and unacceptable for anyone to say, let alone the flagship news programme of the national broadcaster.

Several gross errors of fact were put forward on the technical aspects of the firearms at the heart of the report, errors which were highly prejudicial towards the notion that the shooting community was a danger to the general public. It was implied through omission that the changes in the firearms act have permitted only the licencing of high-calibre rifles and pistols; this is not the case. In fact, the changes in the firearms act have permitted Irish citizens to enter one-third of the Olympic shooting events for the first time in over thirty years. It was implied, through the use of editing, that the F-Class fullbore shooting team, who have represented their country in international competition for the past few years and who have hosted international competitions in Ireland, are training to shoot criminals at a range of a mile and a half. It was stated that there is no animal in Ireland that a .308 was a suitable calibre to hunt, while showing footage of a red deer – but the Irish Deer Society has already stated that a .308 is suitable for several species of deer (including the red deer shown on the program) in order to ensure that the deer is culled humanely. The Irish Deer Society is the group which runs the Hunter Competency Assessment Programme – their expertise in this area is superior to that of the Irish Times security correspondent, yet they were interviewed.

The coverage of the legislation currently governing firearms was equally inaccurate. It was stated that Garda Superintendents were no longer allowed to even think about the firearm being licenced because of the O'Leary v Maher case; this is not the case. The Garda Superintendent is permitted to refuse a licence on the grounds that the applicant has no place where he or she could safely use the firearm being applied for. They are permitted to require the applicant take proficiency courses in the firearm being applied for. They are permitted, in fact, to require whatever reasonable prerequisites of the applicant they believe are needed for public safety before granting a licence. The only change made by the O'Leary case was that a Superintendent can no longer make a blanket precondition for any applicant that considers only the firearm being applied for. This is a far more specific and specialised consequence than that which was put forward by the show and no lay person watching it could have taken away that conclusion.

There were equally incorrect statements made regarding the history of firearms legislation in Ireland, both through outright errors and through omissions. The temporary custody order of 1972 was stated to have run until 2004 – it did not, it expired in 1972. Firearms taken under its aegis were not returned because the order was timed in such a way that firearms licences were to be renewed while the firearms were in custody; and at that moment, the then-Minister for Justice (Des O'Malley) issued an internal policy that no firearms over .22 calibre and no pistols of any kind would be licenced. So the firearms sat in limbo for 30 years. Shooters challenged the government of the day on this, in 1972, and were told they could challenge the policy in court and they would win – but that the government in light of the Troubles, would bring in legislation banning firearms outright. We were asked, as a community, to make a temporary sacrifice for the sake of the country's security and we did so. It was not until the Good Friday agreement that shooters again asked for their property back, and the subsequent refusal to do so is what brought about the court cases mentioned by Prime Time. All of this detail was omitted however, with the resultant picture of the shooting community presented being that of a group of irresponsible litigious troublemakers instead of a group who made a sacrifice for the overall community and who were then treated abysmally for their troubles; and who finally reached the conclusion that a change was necessary.

The segment failed utterly in its depiction of the current state of affairs with respect to the firearms legislation and it did not carry out due diligence in its research. There was no interview with, or even mention of, Garreth Byrne (head of the firearms section of the Department of Justice and chairman of the Firearms Consultative Panel). It failed to interview or even mention Superintendent Noel Clarke (responsible within the Gardai for the implementation of the changes in the firearms act brought about by the 2006 Criminal Justice Act). It failed to mention the Firearms Consultative Panel, a body set up so that the shooting community, the Gardai and the Department of Justice could work together to implement the changes to the Firearms Act in the safest, most efficient manner possible. It did not cover the recent two-day conference where the shooting community, the Gardai and the Department of Justice met to discuss progress in implementing the new Firearms Act and to encourage inter-group communications and to harness the expertise available in all groups to further the goal of implementing the firearms legislation in a safe and efficient manner.

The segment instead charged that the Firearms Act changes would not be rolled out for a further 12 months, implying directly that this endangered public safety – when instead, the changes that pertained to the criminal abuse of firearms have already been rolled out and those remaining have to do with civilian licencing of firearms for sporting purposes and which are being delayed mainly because of IT problems with the PULSE system.

This segment was filled with gross and minor errors, both technical and non-technical. It failed to interview key people or to check the facts from those it did interview. It was edited in a manner that presented a one-sided view of the shooting community and it was aired at a time and on a show which ensured the maximum audience possible for this. This was a reprehensible act, and must be corrected.

Sparks

Hezz700 wrote: »

Its just a thought, But we need to create our own good pubilcity and not wait around for other outside interests to dish out these kind of reports while we quitely hope that we're painted in a good light.

Amen to that!

johngalway

My letter has been sent in I've also put up threads on this issue on two UK based hunting/shooting sites which have a fair number of Irish members.

Sparks

The more complaints sent to the BCC, the more letters to the editorial pages, the greater the chances of anything happening (and slim is better than none), so get writing everyone...

Hezz700

Sparks wrote: »

The more complaints sent to the BCC, the more letters to the editorial pages, the greater the chances of anything happening (and slim is better than none), so get writing everyone...

will do

Our man in Havana

RTÉ will have alot of explaining to do as a result of this. Any flak in the media today as a result?

johngalway

I've not heard anything so far, but if aliens landed next door to me it's entirely possible I'd not hear about it.

johngalway

Which email address did you lot send your complaint to the Broadcasting Complaints Comission at please? I sent it to one but it bounced back at me.

Sparks

You have to put your complaint in their complaint form john, and then email it to complaints@bcc.ie.
I've attached the form.

G17

Sparks wrote: »

The more complaints sent to the BCC, the more letters to the editorial pages, the greater the chances of anything happening (and slim is better than none), so get writing everyone...

Done. - to BCC

excerpt :
I thought this section of the show was unfair towards law abiding sporting shooters.
Firstly the piece was entitled ‘Trouble Shooting’ suggesting some inherent trouble with legal shooting.
The tone of the whole piece suggested that the increase in numbers of legal firearm ownership was a negative or dangerous situation.
Inaccurate information; the opening statement by the expert said he was shocked by the number of firearms which are by definition ‘military’. Armies do not use air rifles, air pistols, sporting shotguns or the like. The long range target rifles featured are so finely engineered that they would never work reliably in combat situations.
The show states there has been a dramatic increase in the number of firearms. The use of the word dramatic here is unfair in my opinion. Around 1 percent per year can not surely be a dramatic increase.
The narrator says “including many controversial semi automatic 9mm pistols”. There was no reference made to what controversy and I and anyone in the shooting community I’ve talked to is unaware of a controversy pertaining to one particular calibre.

The narrator mentions gun lobby, there is no gun lobby in Ireland. This would suggest to the uninformed viewer that there is a political organisation such as America’s NRA that exists, again negative spin in my opinion.

The final comment referring to a schoolyard (for example) incident being inevitable was grossly unfair and not based in fact, there is no evidence to suggest this and it could scare parents living near sporting shooters.
There was no panel to discuss the points made in this segment, the viewer feel was left with the overall view that there was some danger posed to them due to legally held firearms.