RTE's Prime Time - Shooting/licensing to be featured Tuesday night...

Gunter Mauser

(Captain Tom Clonan, Retd.) B.Ed, Dip Mil Studies, MACCS, PhD. Teaching and Research Interests:
Tom Clonan is a former army officer with experience in the Middle East and former Yugoslavia. His research to date has included work on women in combat in Ireland and in the international military.Tom commenced lecturing in DIT in 2002 and teaches communication theory, political economy and media representation to Journalism students and students on the MA in PR and MA in Media Studies. Tom is a Fellow of the US-based Inter University Seminar on Armed Forces and Society. He is a member of the NUJ and contributes regularly on radio and television both at home and abroad on defence, security and media matters. He is a regular contributor in these areas to the Irish Times. He is an affiliate member of the Public Relations Institute of Ireland.

Dr Tom Clonan on Middle East peace keeping difficulties.

"We had members of our forces were abducted, executed and in some cases we haven't had the bodies returned. So that, in my mind, is a situation that would be very, very similar to that confronting the Coalition of the willing in Iraq".

Dr Tom Clonan is regularly on RTE radio & television. Last nights Prime Time segment about the effects of the O'Leary case was a 10 min show filler without proper studio live debate to give balance to Dr Clonan so called technical expertise on all matters weapons etc! What struck me was Dr Clonans shocked look! Gosh these target shooters can hit targets at long distance with highpowered rifles on ranges to cater for this sport. 9mm killer pistol used by the military are in the hands of Civilians. Apparently from his military experience of Weapons he supports the Supers position in the O'Leary Case, that .308 is too much gun for deer stalking.The danger for RTE & more importantly the DOJ / Garda relying on so called experts is unless these people are familiar with deer stalking or target shooting the advice they offer can be as relevant as saying members of the defence forces will suffer from PTSD. They witness conflict and death first hand, are they are liable to run amock spraying bullets and grenades, should they be discharged from the defence forces on returning from peace keeping missions immediately.

Ballistic science does not fit into a neat box where you can tick off .308 bad .243 good. I can only remember one incident where a stalker killed someone by mistake here in the ROI. Early 80's .22-250 was the only cal permitted to shoot deer at the time so deer had to be shot at short range, it was later claimed had the use of a fullbore stalking cartridge been used the victim may have survived due to the fact that the high velocity .22 bullets break up on impact like shrapnel (out to 400m) where the heavier slower bullet like a 150g .308 possibly have passed stright through without releasing its destructive energy. Larger calibers are to shoot larger deer or any deer at longer distances humanly. 308 is used around the world as a stalking / target cartridge nothing outrageous or blistering about its performance, in last nights pronouncements from the expert it becomes a safety threat to the general public here but for some unknown reason nowheres else not even NI at the height of the troubles.

To correct this imbalance the fcp must deal with true fact not fiction. Experts credentials and submissions need to be vetted before they distort the issues. It would be interesting to see if Dr Tom Clonan responds.

johngalway

Please don't call them weapons Weapons are used to hurt people.

Sparks, cheers for that I'll go send in that form now.

Hezz700

johngalway wrote: »

but if aliens landed next door to me it's entirely possible I'd not hear about it.

That probably a good thing is'nt it, Cos if you heard aliens had landed you be out hunting them with that High powered military .223 remington rifle of yours:rolleyes: and i would be shooting them from a mile and a half with my .308 gold plated bling bling gangsta fully automatic bolt action assault rifle.:D

Hezz.

johngalway

Hezz700 wrote: »

That probably a good thing is'nt it, Cos if you heard aliens had landed you be out hunting them with that High powered military .223 remington rifle of yours:rolleyes: and i would be shooting them from a mile and a half with my .308 gold plated bling bling gangsta fully automatic bolt action assault rifle.:D

Hezz.

After I had finished with my insurgency commitments naturally. How do we find the time.

Ned Muldhoon

I doubt if a response from Dr. Clonan will be forthcomming. The purpose of the slot in the programme was to sensationalise and scaremonger. At the very outset of the programme a combat type 'Man' target is seen - These are never used by civilians in this country.
Although there is no apparent fallout from this, it's only a matter of time before some politico starts a rant (remember the Greens are in government!)

This type of journalism creates an instant knee jerk reaction that leaves us apologising for our sport and accepting draconian laws and restrictions in order to "keep the peace". Although we do not have a gun lobby in this country, maybe it's about time to start thinking about it. A powerful block vote might make politicians take notice.

Letter on the way to DG of RTE now - don't expect to hear anything back though!

kerryman12

complaint on the way, excerpt included below:

This statement coupled with the editing of the piece ie to finish the segment, appears to be designed to create a fear among member of the public. Surely this topic could be handled in a more balanced manner. As a TV licence holder and thus financial contributor to RTE I am yet again bitterly disappointed with the use my liceance fee is being put to.

Our man in Havana

johngalway wrote: »

After I had finished with my insurgency commitments naturally. How do we find the time.

Would that be with the Galway Militia?

Gunter Mauser

IF the ballistic knowledge gathered by the Doj in the area of small arms is of a standard presented Dr Clonan on Prime time no wonder all this pipebomb and super loads nonsense get credence over what the actual facts are on the ground. On this island we have two systems of firearms law in opperation. The NI guidelines for firearms have opperated over the last 30 years containing most of what reasonable members of the shooting community in the South have desired for many years. Why do we in the south have to go inventing the wheel when it comes to firearms law. Up North the guidelines just like the Canadian Guidelines for ranges exist easily modified and put into opperation or is that far too stright foward and easy.

Off topic slightly. Will the Irish defense forces also have to opperate the Canadian guidlines for firing ranges. When you think of it, new recruits with a couple of months training go to the firing range using fully automatic weapons, fire from various positions after running a couple of miles, is it not fair to assume this young lad is more of a risk of letting rip by mistake than the static mature man with years of experience using a slow bolt action rifle on a civilian range. We so far don't get to use military ranges while our counterparts in other countries or up North of the island do. Dr Clonan is using turn of the last century thinking when it comes to firearms / weapons ballistics.Bigger caliber equals greater killing power is old school before the advent of modern high velocity smaller calibers.Not a mention that most firearms require a safe approved by the garda no wonder the public get scared. :eek:

johngalway

I could tell you Agent 007, but.. well.. you know the rest

patbundy

jes sparks did you get any sleep yet.

Sparks

All hail coffee pat

patbundy

did you get any responce sparks.the way i see it sparks it should be brought up at the next fcp meet

Sparks

No responses yet Pat. I think it's going to turn up at the next FCP meeting allright, even if only under AOB yelling....

bunny shooter

Saw it. Shower of gits. Contacted Midlands on pretext of blowing lid on supers wasting taxpayers money....................Now who thinks we need publicity for shooting :mad:

We're all potential nutters just waiting our chance to attack school children :mad:

There should be responses from national shooting bodies to this quickly and they shouldn't rest until we get a very PUBLIC apology :mad:

Grizzly 45

One thing for sure on the plus side folks.The more we hammer about this BS programme,the more noise we make and uproar about this to RTE,the BCI,national press etc.The LESS chance any smart ar"e TV current affairs,or reporter is going to come near us looking for an easy scoop.
As it will not be worth their while with the hassle we will cause them in unfactual reporting etc.So keep complaining,and maybe now a grassroots email campain to PT and RTE??Lets do unto them what they did unto us.:)

patbundy

relax bs,im pissed off too,can anyone anwser why we got the heads up monday when this program was done weeks ago

thehair

patbundy wrote: »

relax bs,im pissed off too,can anyone anwser why we got the heads up monday when this program was done weeks ago

good quesion pat

bunny shooter

patbundy wrote: »

relax bs,im pissed off too,can anyone anwser why we got the heads up monday when this program was done weeks ago

This is me relaxed :pac:

Midlands part was shot last Saturday

patbundy

still takes weeks of planning and looking for permission

Manic Moran

I'm sorry, lads. After all that horror over those extremely lethal 9mm semi-autos, I can only imagine what they'd think of what's in my closet.

If anyone knows anyone from RTE coming over my way, drop 'em a line. I'll edumacate them.

NTM

rrpc

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Off topic slightly. Will the Irish defense forces also have to opperate the Canadian guidlines for firing ranges. When you think of it, new recruits with a couple of months training go to the firing range using fully automatic weapons, fire from various positions after running a couple of miles, is it not fair to assume this young lad is more of a risk of letting rip by mistake than the static mature man with years of experience using a slow bolt action rifle on a civilian range.

Military ranges here are designed under the older version of JSP403 and incorporate huge danger areas. They would be well within the Canadian guidelines.

TrapperJohn

Well done Sparks, your letter was published in the independent.

Hezz700

Excellent work as usual Sparks, Thank You.:)

Gunter Mauser

Up to 1971 .308 and 9mm was available without any of this recent military
branding.Power licenses could be had so I believe up to 1974? Dr Clonan
was a former military man who would have seen at first hand the results
of war so naturally his views about the certain classes of firearms may be
tainted.The fact remains stalking & Target shooting in the Roi have an almost perfect cleen sheet regarding fatal accidents much safer than most
other sports you care to name, due regard should be taken of this fact
before any expert advice is given especially of the underhand school yard
type!

Our man in Havana

Well done Sparks on getting your excellent letter published.

Rew

rrpc wrote: »

Military ranges here are designed under the older version of JSP403 and incorporate huge danger areas. They would be well within the Canadian guidelines.

Thats not the case with alot of Irish ranges TBH. 2 fireing points on a range in the Curragh were closed and the butts raised because rounds were potentially going to land in the golf course that is behind the range. Killbride has to stop firing when hill walkers wonder behind the ranges, Killkoran has public roads that go behind the ranges, same for Gormanstown where people walk up the beach in to the danger area. Bere Island the danger area is out to sea and a lookout is posted watching for boats.

There has been problems other then these that I wont repeate but the DF had an English company review some/all of the ranges about 2 years ago.

Gunter Mauser

Rew wrote: »

Thats not the case with alot of Irish ranges TBH. 2 fireing points on a range in the Curragh were closed and the butts raised because rounds were potentially going to land in the golf course that is behind the range. Killbride has to stop firing when hill walkers wonder behind the ranges, Killkoran has public roads that go behind the ranges, same for Gormanstown where people walk up the beach in to the danger area. Bere Island the danger area is out to sea and a lookout is posted watching for boats.

There has been problems other then these that I wont repeate but the DF had an English company review some/all of the ranges about 2 years ago.

Rew have the problems been solved with Military ranges? Its good to
know that the civilian standards for ranges will be beyond reproach
when all is said and done. The fact that Military ranges can fire rounds
that have a reach several times that of civilian firearms does cause concern for the general public and I think Dr Clonan & Prime Time should
focus in on this area urgently if problems have not been resolved.

Sparks

TrapperJohn wrote: »

Well done Sparks, your letter was published in the independent.

Cheers Trapper. Looks like they cut a fair bit out of it though.

Rew

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Rew have the problems been solved with Military ranges? Its good to
know that the civilian standards for ranges will be beyond reproach
when all is said and done. The fact that Military ranges can fire rounds
that have a reach several times that of civilian firearms does cause concern for the general public and I think Dr Clonan & Prime Time should
focus in on this area urgently if problems have not been resolved.

Anything bigger then .308 is fired on the Artillery ranges not small arms ranges and that really does have a massive danger area. As far as I know they have made a big effort to ensure safty on all ranges. In the case of ranges that have public access to the danger area sentries are posted and will alert the fireing point to cease fire if somone refuses to accept the warning and continues to enter it.

While I think the DF have a very high standard of safty and proficiency with weapons I think that civilian ranges are being held to a much higher standard which is very unfair. Accidents on military ranges have never been made a very big deal of yet there have been some serious ones.

As for Dr Clonan, he was never held in a very high regard in the DF (even before his thesis) so god knows why RTE love him so much as a secuity "expert". BTW he worked in the Press Office of the DF at one point.

Gunter Mauser

Rew, what standard do small arms ranges follow. Have the IDF.ie got a range inspector with powers to close a range.On the small arms ranges do they use the GPMG, point being that civilian ranges won't have machine guns or anything automatic at the firing point yet our standards are possibly of higher specification.
If the general public are at some risk from our military ranges why not follow the Canadian guidelines if not we end up with double standards.I do agree the computer generated guidlines from Canada of one in a million odds is perhaps a bit over the top and wonder are they taking into account dual civilian / Military use?