RTE's Prime Time - Shooting/licensing to be featured Tuesday night...

bollockybill

Hmmmm. A lot of very partisan comment here. Do some of you guys just not like what Tom Clonan had to say - because it didnt reflect your own (amateur) opinions? Or was he really incorrect?

Let's see. Yep, you can fire six or seven rounds out of a 9mm in less than 3 seconds. It aint pretty but you can do it. Try it with the browning automatic pistol. I've done it.

Kill radius of .308 round. He didnt say effective range - he said lethal range. Even smaller calibres can be lethal up to long distances. For example, tracer burn out for 7.62 mm rounds is at approx 900 - 1100 metres. But the round continues travelling. What's tracer burn out? Oh, I forgot, the amateur 'experts' dont know everything it seems.
That's why most military ranges have safety traces that extend for over 2 miles in some instances - to allow for stray rounds.

But of course, what would the international military know about guns?

Also, legally held firearms are involved in some of the most savage shootings in this country. For example, a legally held shotgun was used in the murder of a father and son in Ireland earlier this year. Legally held firearms are also used in many other suicide/murder situations. For example, a father murdering a daughter to avoid giving up custody - do the enthusisastic amateurs remember any of these cases? Probly not because they offend their 'point of view'.

And, yes, most of the mass murders in schools in the USA involved legally held weapons used in an inappropriate manner.

Listen guys and girls, Clonan isnt the issue. Dont shoot the messenger - just think about the message. I mean, really think about it.

And as for the guy who said Clonan wasnt held in high regard in the DF before or after his thesis - well, that's interesting. Come out in public and say that and put your name to it. That'd be interesting. Hmmm, he was held in such low esteem he was posted as a staff officer to the chief of staff. methinks we've got a disgruntled wannabe here. some army people dont like Clonan because he told the truth. Hmmm. a hanging offence obviously.

Gunter Mauser

Are you the good doctor himself or just a wind up oh really!:rolleyes:

bollockybill

look it up in your diktionary gunter. you are obviously a brain of britain contestant. Loved your post by the way. a really relevant point. really relevant. really really relevant. and makes such sense. wind up. great stuff. any other ideas rolling around between the two or three synapses you seem to have borrowed? any other lil icons to put on there like :rolleyes: or ? you mustnt have many conversations in real life.........

It wasn't me!

bollockybill wrote: »

Hmmmm. A lot of very partisan comment here. Do some of you guys just not like what Tom Clonan had to say - because it didnt reflect your own (amateur) opinions? Or was he really incorrect?

Let's see. Yep, you can fire six or seven rounds out of a 9mm in less than 3 seconds. It aint pretty but you can do it. Try it with the browning automatic pistol. I've done it.

Kill radius of .308 round. He didnt say effective range - he said lethal range. Even smaller calibres can be lethal up to long distances. For example, tracer burn out for 7.62 mm rounds is at approx 900 - 1100 metres. But the round continues travelling. What's tracer burn out? Oh, I forgot, the amateur 'experts' dont know everything it seems.
That's why most military ranges have safety traces that extend for over 2 miles in some instances - to allow for stray rounds.

But of course, what would the international military know about guns?

Also, legally held firearms are involved in some of the most savage shootings in this country. For example, a legally held shotgun was used in the murder of a father and son in Ireland earlier this year. Legally held firearms are also used in many other suicide/murder situations. For example, a father murdering a daughter to avoid giving up custody - do the enthusisastic amateurs remember any of these cases? Probly not because they offend their 'point of view'.

And, yes, most of the mass murders in schools in the USA involved legally held weapons used in an inappropriate manner.

Listen guys and girls, Clonan isnt the issue. Dont shoot the messenger - just think about the message. I mean, really think about it.

And as for the guy who said Clonan wasnt held in high regard in the DF before or after his thesis - well, that's interesting. Come out in public and say that and put your name to it. That'd be interesting. Hmmm, he was held in such low esteem he was posted as a staff officer to the chief of staff. methinks we've got a disgruntled wannabe here. some army people dont like Clonan because he told the truth. Hmmm. a hanging offence obviously.

So he was correct in saying that a .308 Winchester was a definitively military round and had no place in hunting on this island, while footage of a red stag was shown simultaneously?

Also, the lethal range of a .308 on a human just isn't relevant, because by being licensed to use one, it's assumed you're not going to use it in some way that this is going to be a factor. Frankly, the lethal range of a rifle bullet is any range at which you're going to encounter it moving.

This is not the USA, moving on.

Clonan's reputation within the military or otherwise doesn't matter a damn. Waffling, scaremongering, and all such ridiculous activities, do matter, and that's why he's attracting such skepticism here.

Rovi

bollockybill wrote: »

look it up in your diktionary gunter. you are obviously a brain of britain contestant. Loved your post by the way. a really relevant point. really relevant. really really relevant. and makes such sense. wind up. great stuff. any other ideas rolling around between the two or three synapses you seem to have borrowed? any other lil icons to put on there like :rolleyes: or ? you mustnt have many conversations in real life.........

Personal abuse and trolling, you're out of here.
Banned.

PM me in a week or two if you want back, and see if you can persuade me you can behave yourself.

karen02

!

Rovi

karen02 wrote: »

!

Re-registering to circumvent a ban is a site bannable offence, so you're now in the hands of the Admins.
Banned from here in the meantime.

Vegeta

Anyone have a transcript from Clonan we can go through for factual errors to show bollockybill just how many he made.

foxshooter243

Bollockybill suffered from tracer burn out after 2 posts:D

Rew

bollockybill wrote: »

Let's see. Yep, you can fire six or seven rounds out of a 9mm in less than 3 seconds. It aint pretty but you can do it. Try it with the browning automatic pistol. I've done it.

If its such an evil killer military caliber why would the yanks be thinking of moving back to .40 or .45? There are some people who can do that many rounds from a bolt action rifle big deal or a revolver.

.22lr has less recoil and can fired just as fast if not faster and can be just as lethal but lets face it when your talking to the public 9mm is well known through the movies and media and easier to make a big deal out of.

Kill radius of .308 round. He didnt say effective range - he said lethal range. Even smaller calibres can be lethal up to long distances. For example, tracer burn out for 7.62 mm rounds is at approx 900 - 1100 metres. But the round continues travelling. What's tracer burn out? Oh, I forgot, the amateur 'experts' dont know everything it seems.

Everyone here knows what your talking about the only thing amateur is the way you putting it. Some of the guys here could tell every detail about the rounds trajectory every inch of the way. You would be doing well to find many soldiers (even those that work directly for the CoS) able to do.

That's why most military ranges have safety traces that extend for over 2 miles in some instances - to allow for stray rounds.

Appart for the ones with golf courses behind them?

But of course, what would the international military know about guns?

Collectively quite alot but indvidules not alot. You could spend you entire working life in the Army and win a few All Army smalls competitions and and know very little about firearms in the grad scheme of things.

The Army in general know very little about civilian firearms law and licencing, why would they its nothing to do with them.

Also, legally held firearms are involved in some of the most savage shootings in this country. For example, a legally held shotgun was used in the murder of a father and son in Ireland earlier this year. Legally held firearms are also used in many other suicide/murder situations. For example, a father murdering a daughter to avoid giving up custody - do the enthusisastic amateurs remember any of these cases? Probly not because they offend their 'point of view'.

We all take carefull note of these incidents and and how tragic they are but to put it in perspective people use rope, cars, drugs, knives, razors etc. alot more then guns for murder and sucide. The murder, suicide and accident rate with firearms is tiny in comaprison to other things or even accidental death and injury casused by cars. Cars eclipes firearms in the carnage they cause almost every weekend. But lets face it you wont make much headway or get much attension if you go on primetime spouting about that.

And, yes, most of the mass murders in schools in the USA involved legally held weapons used in an inappropriate manner..

Very different country with very differny laws.

Listen guys and girls, Clonan isnt the issue. Dont shoot the messenger - just think about the message. I mean, really think about it.

He is the issue, he went on the TV program as an expert and he was far from it. He either intensionaly went out there to provoke a very strong response (bearing in mind he is an expert in media communications) or he was edited incredibly well to make it look that way.

And as for the guy who said Clonan wasnt held in high regard in the DF before or after his thesis - well, that's interesting. Come out in public and say that and put your name to it. That'd be interesting. Hmmm, he was held in such low esteem he was posted as a staff officer to the chief of staff. methinks we've got a disgruntled wannabe here. some army people dont like Clonan because he told the truth. Hmmm. a hanging offence obviously.

Well thats my opinion on him. Being a Captin in the Army with a couple of overseas tours doesnt make you a security expert and even less so an expert on civilian firearms ownership. I used to think that his doctorate was military related and experince was much greater hence his career choice untill I started reading up on him.

If he had put forward a fair yet negitive argument this thead wouldn't be anywhere near as long but he put forward a masivly sensationalised argument and labled it as fact.

johngalway

Don't feed the trolls people, they thrive on a response

My advice is to keep the complaints going in to the BCC and anywhere else that's applicable.

Grizzly 45

As for Dr Clonan, he was never held in a very high regard in the DF (even before his thesis) so god knows why RTE love him so much as a secuity "expert". BTW he worked in the Press Office of the DF at one point

Obviously RTE and Slime Time couldn't be botherd or couldnt find anyone else that might have knowledge on firearms or military matters.:rolleyes:

Of course the good Dr Clonan is in the media,doesn't he teach it at DIT,was a press officer for the army,and did Caring Understanding Nineties Type [you figure out the abbreviation yourselves,dont blame me:)]research on army people being nasty to the girls in the Army?Perfect PC type for talking expertly on nasty things like guns and Army stuff.
Over the years the clangers this man has made on commenting on firearms,police and military matters in general.Would have to be heard to belived.

Rew

His Army thesis was very controversial but he was on to somthing because a few years later the Doyle Report came out and screwed the Army for all the same things. Any way thats way OT, I think in ref to Dr Clonan its better to keep it relevent to the topic at hand.

kerryman12

well done sparks!

coolagad

Spin radio did a piece on it. Had a few random punters on that sounded like joe duffy rejects! presenters were trying to sensationalise a bit but were reasonable in debate. had shooting representatiive on, did not hear his name but he came across very well. overall not bad........

Bananaman

I think in ref to Dr Clonan its better to keep it relevent to the topic at hand.

That may all be on purpose. You have to realise that EVERYONE I know in shooting knows who this guys is now - thanks to the fact that Prime Time can be downloaded they all know he's quite happy to sensationalise civilian firearm ownership and is not too bothered as to whether or not his is correct in his "expert" opinion - before this show NOBODY I know in shooting had ever heard of him.

Did someone say he's a lecturer in media studies ???? MMMmmmmmm.

B'Man

rrpc

For Tom Clonan and his cheerleaders

Cartridge|100 yds|200 yds|MPBR* yds
.17 HMR (17 SP at 2550)|+1.5"|-5.5"|165
.22 LR (40 HP at 1255)|-3.0"|-40.9"|90
.22 WMR (40 HP at 1910)|+0.5"|-19.0"|123
.223 Rem. (45 Sp at 3550)|+1.4"|+0.2"|235
.22-250 Rem. (55 SP at 3600)|+1.3"|+0.6"|254
.220 Swift (55 SP at 3800)|+1.2"|+0.9"|264
.243 WSSM (100 Sp at 3100)|+2.5"|+2.2"|296
.240 Wby. Mag. (100 Sp at 3400)|+2.4"|+2.6"|322
6.5x68 S (140 Sp at 2990)|+2.6"|+2.1"|294
.264 Win. Mag. (140 Sp at 3100)|+2.5"|+2.3"|303
.270 Win. (130 Sp at 3140)|+2.5"|+2.4"|305
.308 Win. (180 Sp at 2610)|+2.8"|+1.2"|259

*MPBR is Maximum Point Blank range, which is the distance the bullet travels before it drops more than 3" below the line of sight. For an 'expert' like Tom Clonan, that's the effective 'kill' distance. After that, the bullet is dropping too fast to be sure of a hit.

You can see that the .308 has an effective distance something in the same region as the 22-250 or the 220 swift and a good deal less than the .243.

The only reason a deer hunter would use this round is that it is probably the best one for heavier quarry such as the red deer: anything over 400lbs in weight and less than 600lbs.

Gunter Mauser

Obviously RTE and Slime Time couldn't be botherd or couldnt find anyone else that might have knowledge on firearms or military matters.

Bollockybill Grizzly;), partisan & supports the doc!

Grizzly 45

Good ...Then maybe Bollockybill and Clonan can put their heads together and come up with the sum of everything they know and we have forgotten.;)
BTW when were Browning Hi powers ever called in the PDF or the UK army Hi Powers.Thought yez always called them BAPs??

rrpc

Actually,this stuff is so basic, you'd expect that someone in the military would be well aware of it.

We've discussed this at length on this forum many times, the larger the bullet the quicker it drops. Granted some of these rounds have heavy charges behind them (and they need to) because of the weight of the bullet and to keep the trajectory as flat as possible.

The military have discovered this fact a long time ago which is why the Nato round is now the 5.56mm instead of the 7.62mm, The British were also experimenting with using a 4.5mm round for the SA80 but settled on the 5.56 when Nato took it on.

Part of the reason for this was logistical (you can carry more lighter rounds), but it was also because of the flatter trajectory and longer effective distance these rounds will have.

It's funny really, you have Superintendents telling people they can't have .223's because they're military rounds and at the same time they're saying you can't have .308's because they're military.

At 1000 yards, the .308 will have dropped over 7 metres from the line of sight. To get it to go over a mile and a half, you'd have to elevate the barrel aproximately 20 metres above the line of sight.

No problem to an ex-artillery officer

Rovi

Right, can I ask everyone to tone down the vitriol towards Mr. Clonan?
Juvenile name calling and the like do nothing to further our cause and only serve to show us in a bad light.
He has shown himself to be 'anti' civilian ownership of firearms and much of his 'expert' opinion appears to be very much open to question; that's all fine, we now know where he's coming from and can view his future statements on the subject with this knowledge in mind.
Certainly argue his position and counter his 'facts' and opinions, but please, lay off the silly personalised stuff, it's unbecoming a community that presents itself as adult and responsible.

Most of the above also applies to discussions on the production values and editorial direction of the Prime Time programme.

Sparks

Hear, hear. Molainn on obair an fear, we don't need to embellish it in any way, just point out where it's wrong in as clinical a tone as possible in order to highlight just how poor a piece of work it was.

patbundy

well done sparks;).whens the celebratetion party:)

Sparks

For a single cut-down letter in the Indo pat? That's barely worth a celbratory donor kebab, let alone a party

meathstevie

The term Browning Hi Power and the concept dates back from the stoneage ( 1920's ) when Browning and FN ( cooperation of John Moses himself and Dieudonne Saive ) developed this particular pistol in 9mm caliber and called it Pistol a Grande Puissance aka Browning/FN GP. As far as I know production started pre-WWII ( 1935 me thinks, open for correction ) and as far as pistol rounds went in those days it was hot stuff indeed also the fact that it had a capacity for 13 rounds + 1 was pretty revolutionary in those days . It's not an automatic but a semi-automatic pistol.

The passage of time has watered this down considerably in the meantime and far more powerfull, quicker firing and more accurate handguns are available now.

meathstevie

foxshooter243 wrote: »

Bollockybill suffered from tracer burn out after 2 posts:D

Yep, four bangs and bright streak, then it jammed :eek:

Grizzly 45

Ahhh C'mon Rovi!! It's payback time in a way.. We are always protrayed as knuckle dragging troglodites who are potential nutters looking out to shoot anything that moves and shouldnt be entrusted with a feather duster by the media.So a bit of good slagging in return is in order. If they cant take the heat...:D

Sparks

This isn't a slagging match in the pub Grizzly, this is the national broadcaster protraying us in a very negative light right at a sensitive time with respect to the changes in the firearms legislation. There'll be time for slagging over a pint later, but for now, let's do this right.

Manic Moran

Rew wrote: »

If its such an evil killer military caliber why would the yanks be thinking of moving back to .40 or .45?

Because the old-timers are of the daft belief that 'The old one was better', and that any 'real' calibre has to begin with a '4' or have the word 'magnum' in it.

There are no plans to replace the M9/M11 pistols. Some SpecOps units were looking at .45s a year or two ago, but the orders were dramatically reduced, if not cancelled.

NTM

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

This isn't a slagging match in the pub Grizzly, this is the national broadcaster protraying us in a very negative light right at a sensitive time with respect to the changes in the firearms legislation. There'll be time for slagging over a pint later, but for now, let's do this right.

Referring to us slagging Clonan here Sparks.They already have been and done that to us[which was to be expected].So us making fun of an idiot isnt going to change the firearms laws either.Thank god Dustin the other turkey was on to take the attention away from the disaster on the other side.