RTE's Prime Time - Shooting/licensing to be featured Tuesday night...

rrpc

Here's a transcipt for those who wanted it. Any errors are mine. I've left out most of the Em's and Eh's etc.

ML – Mark Little, TC – Tom Clonan, JM – Joe Melia, DC – Des Crofton, PM – Paul Maguire, PAMcD – Paul Anthony McDermott.

0:00 – ML: “For all our troubled past and all our criminal present, Ireland never really had a gun culture, the same way as say the US. But times may be changing. The number of legally held firearms in this country has risen to over 200,000. And as Paul Maguire now reports, more guns means bigger guns.”

Human shaped target graphic introduction: “Trouble Shooting”

00:29 - TC: “Well I’m shocked not just by the numbers, but also by the nature of these weapons. They are by definition: military”

The accompanying video shows a man using a .22lr rifle at 50m bench rested.

00:40 – JM: “Our aim would be to hit a saucer at 1000 yards, I mean that takes a hell of a good gun”

00:50 – DC: “What we licence in this country, are firearms only for sporting purposes. We don’t licence firearms for personal protection.”

01:00 – PM: “In recent years there has been a dramatic increase in the number of legally held firearms here. Figures obtained by Prime Time reveal that there are now in excess of 217,000 registered firearms. That’s an increase of almost 8% during the past 6 years. In that time the number of shotguns has remained consistent. Currently there are almost 47,000 rifles here, that’s an increase of 18%, however the biggest increase was in handguns, in fact in less than three years the number of legally held handguns has increased by 1400 following the removal of the Government ban on pistols. And, the type of firearms being used by gun enthusiasts are now much more sophisticated and powerful.

Accompanying graphic shows 217,473 superimposed on a target and 7.6% increase between 2002 and 2008, 167,460 shotguns, 46,575 rifles, up 18% and 1386 pistols from 2005 to 2008).

01:45 – JM: “This is a 7WSM – Winchester Short Magnum – It’s accurate to about 1200 yards. I shoot internationally, I shoot all over Scotland, I’ve shot Canada, the USA competitively on the Irish team. And, basically without a gun of this quality you’re not competitive. You could just stay at home.”

02:06 – TC: “They’re not toys, they’re lethal weapons, and I think with power some of these weapons are you know, the equivalent, in terms of firepower that would be used by insurgent groups in Iraq”

02:15 – DC: “The proof of the pudding is as they say, is in the eating. There are simply no fleets of ambulances running around the country ferrying injured members of the public to hospitals or emergency rooms from sporting accidents, so that’s, that’s a simple fact.”

02:30 – PM: “The firearms act of 1925, governs the licensing of guns here. Under the act, Garda Superintendents are the licensing authorities”

Accompanying video shows a rifle being removed from its case and a rack of rifles.

02:40 – PAMcD: “The local Superintendent in essence has to determine; is there a risk to public safety if you’re given a licence for the gun. And in the past it was always thought that one of the criteria the Superintendent could consider is what type of a weapon is it? Is it a hunting weapon? Is it a military weapon? Is it the type of weapon the public would be concerned if people are carrying it around hills and forests of Ireland”

03:05 – PM: “The National Association of Regional Game Councils which represents 27,000 gun club members around the country has taken 70 court cases challenging Superintendents who refuse licences because of the calibre of the weapon. “

Accompanying video shows a man taking a rifle from its rack and placing it on a bench rest, adjusting the scope and firing a target.

03:20 – DC: “Somebody who has already a registered firearms licence holder, has met the bar, has satisfied the Gardai that he is a person who may have a firearm without posing a danger to the public safety or the peace and yet when that individual will come in for perhaps a particular calibre of firearm, the Superintendents, or some of them, are saying “No, I don’t think you can have that without posing a danger to public safety or the peace”. And that is tantamount to saying that “because I give you a particular calibre of firearm, your character, your character changes” and that’s clearly ridiculous.”

03:54 – PM: “Last month in what was seen as a landmark case, Thomas O’Leary from Killarney in County Kerry sought a judicial review of the decision of his local Superintendent to refuse a licence for a high-powered hunting rifle. The 308 calibre Steyr Mannlicher rifle similar to this one has the capacity to fire high velocity rounds which can travel at a speed of more than half a mile a second. The Superintendent argued that using such a high-powered weapon in an area where there were many hillwalkers, constituted a risk to public safety”

Accompanying video shows a red deer and Kerry landscape. Cuts to Paul Maguire holding a similar rifle to the one being discussed. (Incidentally in an unsafe manner – the bolt closed and his finger on the trigger).

04:23 – TC: ”The Steyr Mannlicher has a kill range of anything up to one and a half miles. And.. it’s designed to – if you’ll excuse the phrase – designed to drop a target of anything up to 200kgs. I would consider it an inappropriate tool for most of the kind of hunting targets that you would have in this country”

Accompanying video showing red deer.

04:41 – PM: “However, in a strongly worded judgment, Justice Maureen Harding-Clark directed the Superintendent to reconsider his refusal to grant a licence”

Accompanying video of the four courts.

04:50 – PAMcD: “The applicant was perfectly law-abiding, had a perfectly good record using guns, had never been in trouble, had never endangered anybody and had a spotless hunting record. And in those circumstances, Judge Clark said the local Superintendent should have focussed on that and wasn’t entitled to say: I don’t like this type of gun, therefore I’m simply not going to licence it.”

05:12 – PM: “The reasoned judgment also has implications for 40 of the 70 original legal challenges which are still to come before the courts.”

05:20 – DC: “I think it means for quite a number of those cases will fall because of that judgment, the issues are identical in a great many of those cases.

05:30 – PM: “It’s understood many senior Gardai are concerned last month’s ruling will stop them refusing licences for high-powered weapons on grounds of public safety.“

Accompanying video shows people shooting on the 600 yard range in Midlands,

05:41 – PAMcD: “There are clearly still going to be some limits in that the Minister can prohibit certain weapons entirely, clearly you can’t walk around Ireland with a rocket launcher. But at the same time if a weapon isn’t on the prohibited list then no matter how serious a weapon it is and no matter how dangerous, what the decision means is all you can look at is the record of the applicant. The Superintendent cannot in effect make a personal decision that he doesn’t like this type of weapon being carried around his area.”

06:10 – PM: “Concern is also being expressed about the explosion in applications for handgun licences in the wake of a high court case four years ago. In 1972 at the height of the troubles in the North, the Government confiscated all privately owned handguns to prevent the IRA stealing them. The temporary order was intended to last for a month, however it remained in place for 32 years. In 2004 the NARGC challenged the confiscation order in the High Court, and won. Since then almost 1400 handguns have been licensed including many controversial semi-automatic 9mm pistols.”

Accompanying video shows semi-automatics and revolvers being fired on the pistol range in Midlands.

06:45 – DC: “There’s something like about 1500 handguns I think have been licensed. So there is no explosion and let’s get that out of the way. And of the handguns, it’s 2004 you know and if you look up at the sky today, you know the handgun’s out, the sky is still up there, it hasn’t fallen in on anybody, there’s nobody running around holding up banks with legally held firearms.

07:04 – TC: “We have troops in Chad at the moment, we’ve troops you know, in a number of different countries who’ll be carrying, you know, 9mm semi-automatic pistols. They’ve a high rate of fire, you can, you know, you can discharge seven to eight maybe nine rounds out of one of these weapons in, you know, two seconds, three seconds flat. Em, they’re a particularly dangerous weapon.”

More video footage of pistols being fired.

07:24 – PM: “Arising from an increasing number of incidents involving firearms, and a flood of legal challenges from the gun lobby, the Criminal Justice Act 2006 included a number of amendments to the firearms legislation. While some of those have been rolled out, Prime Time has learned it will be another twelve months before the amendments are fully implemented.”

Accompanying video shows Gardai examining a crime scene where it is obvious firearms have been used. There are close ups of the windscreen of a vehicle with bullet holes in it and of bullet holes on the outside wall and window of a house. Also a close up of bloodstains on a pavement.

07:44 – PAMcD: “What you would like to see, given there’s so much gun crime and so much public concern about it, is a single modern gun act 2008 where in a single document you can find the entire law on this area. So at least everybody can understand what the law is.”

07:59 – DC: “There are 235,000 legally held firearms, for sporting purposes in Ireland as we speak today. Now, the very fact that most members of the public, are simply not aware that there are that many, is indicative of how little problem those, the legal firearms cause.”

08:16 – TC: “I think that with those kind of numbers, eh, present, inevitably we’ll have a situation where a weapon will be taken and used inappropriately, for example in a school, or in a public place, by somebody who ought not to have had access to that weapon.”

Just to add in that the word 'weapon' was used 18 times, 'Firearm' 16 times (mostly by Des Crofton) and 'Crime' or 'Criminal' 3 times.

Weapon: OED definition
A weapon is a tool employed to gain a tactical advantage over an adversary, usually by injury, defeat, or destruction.

Gun Culture: Wikipedia definition
The gun culture is a culture shared by people in the gun politics debate, generally those who advocate preserving gun rights and who are against more gun control. In the United States, the term is used solely to identify gun advocates who are legitimate and legal owners and users of guns, using guns for self defense, sporting uses (hunting), and recreational uses (target shooting). By contrast, the term is used differently in the UK and Australia, where it refers to a growing use and ownership of guns by criminals.

The latter definition has also been taken up here and is mainly used in newspaper reports about criminal activity involving firearms.

Vegeta

rrpc, thank you so so much for doing what I was too lazy to do. The "Thank you" icon seems to have gone though.

When you see it written down like that it nearly becomes worse.

rrpc

Vegeta wrote: »

rrpc, thank you so so much for doing what I was too lazy to do. The "Thank you" icon seems to have gone though.

When you see it written down like that it nearly becomes worse.

I had to watch it in forensic detail in order to do that transcript. I really did not relish the task and kept kicking it to touch until last night I started typing with one hand while peeping at it through the fingers of my other hand.

It wasn't me!

I watched it again yesterday as well, and it was still pretty painful. Joe Melia was good to represent the shooter who just wants to get on with things and be left alone to pursue his sport without being labelled a criminal or lunatic. Des Crofton was really the saving grace though. He put out his facts plainly, calmly and reassuringly, and it really does contrast with say, Clonan, who just looked excited and flustered the whole way through.

Hezz700

I,ve spoken to numerous people over the last few days regarding this program and most of those had not even seen it. Of those that had, the general opinion was of indifference. The attitude being "Its only Media Hype"
Perhap i am fortunate to only be aquainted with level headed individuals but, i think not.

Anyone one with half a brain and absolutly no Knowledge of shooting sports should be able to read between the lines and see that report for what it is, a shameless unprevoked attack on the shooting community. That said Joe Public can be blinkered and feed all manner of tripe by the selfimportant soapbox weilding naysayer brigade. We are our own worse enemy if the truth be told. We keep a low profile which of coarse is totally necessary on a personal security level, but that tends to drift over to the public front. Our sport will always be an easy target so long as we keep our secret handshake society. Humans by nature fear or harbour suspicion of that which they do not understand.

I have watched this program a couple of times now, and have come to the conclusion that we have invaluable asset in the form of Des Crofton which is not being tapped.

rrpc

Having transcribed the whole thing I get the feeling that Tom Clonan's contributions were heavily edited. Nowhere does he utter more than a couple of sentences which is inconsistent with everybody else's quotes. As I think I remarked at the start of the program (while it was on air), you really needed to know what questions he was asked.

rrpc

Hezz700 wrote: »

I have watched this program a couple of times now, and have come to the conclusion that we have invaluable asset in the form of Des Crofton which is not being tapped.

Des is on the FCP and having been at a few metings with him, I can assure you that his contribution to shooting sports in Ireland is unrivalled and much appreciated.

Hezz700

rrpc wrote: »

Des is on the FCP and having been at a few metings with him, I can assure you that his contribution to shooting sports in Ireland is unrivalled and much appreciated.

That is good to Know.

Hezz700

rrpc wrote: »

Having transcribed the whole thing I get the feeling that Tom Clonan's contributions were heavily edited. Nowhere does he utter more than a couple of sentences which is inconsistent with everybody else's quotes. As I think I remarked at the start of the program (while it was on air), you really needed to know what questions he was asked.

I totally agree with you, its the prime time team who are to blame. They carefully edited the program to create a story from thin air and its worked beautifully. You can be quite sure that they don't care a damn about Gun ownership but it filled a nice little gap in their show, and they certainly don't care about the damage left in their wake.

Grizzly 45

Well,the thing now is to make them care!Cause enough complaints and uproar that they ,or any other hack who wants a quick scoop will think twice about ever going near shooting in Ireland on their terms.It would be too hot a potato to chance getting messed up on with incorrect facts.

Vegeta

rrpc wrote: »

Having transcribed the whole thing I get the feeling that Tom Clonan's contributions were heavily edited. Nowhere does he utter more than a couple of sentences which is inconsistent with everybody else's quotes. As I think I remarked at the start of the program (while it was on air), you really needed to know what questions he was asked.

This is a very good point, still not loving his answers though even if the questions were loaded (ha ha accidental pun'age)

Repeated use of the term weapon, .308 not a suitable hunting round (despite the round being designed initially for hunting and Ireland having some big big reds) 9mm being a particularly dangerous weapon and so on. Should have known better

rrpc

Vegeta wrote: »

Repeated use of the term weapon, .308 not a suitable hunting round (despite the round being designed initially for hunting and Ireland having some big big reds) 9mm being a particularly dangerous weapon and so on. Should have known better

You have to look at this from the viewpoint of an army officer, weapon is the only word they know. They have very little (if any) experience of civilian shooting and would probably be of the default opinion that there shouldn't be any.

It's the point of view of people who's primary knowledge of guns is that they are there to kill people.

btw, to make a case to the BCC, it's best to keep the complaint as short and succinct as possible based around one point only that's easily understood and hard to argue against.

bigred

Hezz700 wrote: »

I,ve spoken to numerous people over the last few days regarding this program and most of those had not even seen it. Of those that had, the general opinion was of indifference. The attitude being "Its only Media Hype"
Perhap i am fortunate to only be aquainted with level headed individuals but, i think not.

One of the girls I work with is very much an anti. She 'jokes' about me going postal and thinks the bunnies are lovely creatures to be adored. However, she saw it the other night, and wasnt at all concerned. Maybe there's hope?

Vegeta

rrpc wrote: »

You have to look at this from the viewpoint of an army officer, weapon is the only word they know. They have very little (if any) experience of civilian shooting and would probably be of the default opinion that there shouldn't be any.

It's the point of view of people who's primary knowledge of guns is that they are there to kill people.

Which is maybe why he should have declined the interview, as you say he doesn't know enough about civilian shooting.

Hezz700

bigred wrote: »

She 'jokes' about me going postal

Do you believe that Clocktowers are mutlifunctional structures?:D

Hezz700

Vegeta wrote: »

Which is maybe why he should have declined the interview, as you say he doesn't know enough about civilian shooting.

Good point, A levelheaded high ranking Garda familiar with civilian firearm ownership in this country would have more suited to our cause but that is precisely what the program makers did not want.

I'm sure Dr Clonan was only too delighted to wax lyrical on his supposed subject of expertise.

IRLConor

Vegeta wrote: »

Which is maybe why he should have declined the interview, as you say he doesn't know enough about civilian shooting.

Unfortunately, refusing interviews that are ostensibly in his area of expertise would probably not do his career any good. From the point of view of the Prime Time staff an Irish Times Security/Defence analyst should know about guns, right? I'm pretty sure that the distinction between civilian and police/military use of firearms is lost on them.

Anyone know if it's possible to get your hands on the unedited interview with him? FoI maybe? It would be interesting to see if the clips shown of him were representative of his views overall.

Our man in Havana

Anyone know if it's possible to get your hands on the unedited interview with him? FoI maybe? It would be interesting to see if the clips shown of him were representative of his views overall.

I suspect that this will come out in the wash as there are a few complaints gone to the BCC. It is likely the BCC will request the unedited interviews for their consideration of the complaints before them.

Vegeta

IRLConor wrote: »

Unfortunately, refusing interviews that are ostensibly in his area of expertise would probably not do his career any good. From the point of view of the Prime Time staff an Irish Times Security/Defence analyst should know about guns, right? I'm pretty sure that the distinction between civilian and police/military use of firearms is lost on them.

Oh I see where Tom Clonan is coming from. If in his position and Prime Time ask for an interview, you do it to further your career. I'd do the same.

While I agree with rrpc that Prime Time probably asked baited questions like

"Do people here have guns as powerful as those terrorists have, or are they just harmless?"

His answer may have been

“They’re not toys, they’re lethal weapons, and I think with power some of these weapons are you know, the equivalent, in terms of firepower that would be used by insurgent groups in Iraq”

They may also have edited the sh1te out of the show to take his most extreme answers, I still think he is responsible for the answers he gave and from someone with his academic background then I think he handled it quite poorly. Unless of course he was sensationalist on purpose, in which case I have even less time for him.

They are both (Prime Time and Clonan) to blame.

Gunter Mauser

BASC Deer Stalking Code of Practice . Scotland. For roe deer, where the bullet must weigh at least 50 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,000 foot pounds may be used.
For all deer of any species - the bullet must weigh at least 100 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds.
It must be stressed that all these figures are the minimum legal requirement.
For all deer stalking the bullet must be of a type designed to expand/deform on impact.
To ensure safe and humane shooting, stalkers must practise and maintain their skill with the rifle and must check at regular intervals that their rifle is still zeroed correctly - i.e. that the bullet is striking a selected point of aim at a chosen range.
The rifle must ALWAYS be test-fired, and the zero verified or corrected, after a knock or other impact, or after any unaccountably wild shot. No one should continue stalking in such a case, until this zeroing (or sighting-in) has been done. Northern Ireland. For all deer of any species - a minimum calibre of .236 inches, a minimum bullet weight of 100 grains and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement
Experienced Scottish Stalker. I use both .243" and .308" for deer (and foxes).
Although .243" will handle anything from foxes up to larger deer, a lot of sporting agents/estates north of the border won't allow .243" on reds and .270" and .308" are pretty much the standard calibres. .243 would be my personal recommendation for MUNTJAC, CWD and ROE.
and .308" for SIKA, FALLOW and REDS.
Well thats what I use anyway and it works for me! NGO member

04:23 – Tom Clonan: re .308 ” if you’ll excuse the phrase – designed to drop a target of anything up to 200kgs. I would consider it an inappropriate tool for most of the kind of hunting targets that you would have in this country”
Accompanying video showing red deer



The Red Deer (Cervus elaphus,)

Generally, the average male (stag) Red Deer of Europe is 1.2 metres (4 ft) tall and weighs 295 kilograms (650 lb) .308"I would consider it an inappropriate tool for most of the kind of hunting targets that you would have in this country” 95kgs under by T.C's own calculations of 200kgs max killing weight.

Grizzly 45

Anyone know if it's possible to get your hands on the unedited interview with him? FoI maybe? It would be interesting to see if the clips shown of him were representative of his views overall.

[/QUOTE]
Pretty hard.It is usually by now on the cutting floor/bin. All the unwanted stuff is usually binned.They wil lonly keep the unedited stuff up to a point usually a week before the programme is aired,so to add/delete bits somone might find objectionable/or worth adding onto.
So there is only a master copy then kept of the film that is aired.
That is only kept due to legal reasons.The unedited bits are not in question,as they were never aired.So there is no reason to keep them.

Gunter Mauser

Typical 100 & 200 zero using .308 155g target ammunition. Hunting ammunation being less aerodynamic will incur more drop sooner. With this type of typical zero for hunting rifles .308 does a nose dive after 225 yards supporting Rews figures proving the Doc should stick to military matters. If the military choose to put down range (1.5miles) supressive fire with the GPMG 7.62 nato, lobbing lead like arterially shells to scare off the advancing enemy WW1 style that's military tactics nothing to do with how civilians use bolt action rifles on ranges or in the field hunting.

The "line of aim" is a line straight from the shooter's eye, through the sighting device, to the target. The bullet starts off below the LOA by the distance between the center of the sighting device and the center of the bore. This is called the "sight over bore" distance. The axis of the bore is not parallel to the LOA-- the bore is angled slightly upwards. This causes the bullet to start off with some "upward" velocity. As it flies down-range, it rises to meet the point of aim (POA) which is where the LOA intersects with the target.
Depending on the bullet's velocity, the bullet might keep rising above the LOA and again intersect with it a second time as it falls. Alternatively, it may rise just enough to meet the LOA and then start to fall again.
In this graph, two loads are displayed. The green trajectory is a 308 load zeroed at 100 yards. It starts 2" low, rises to the LOA at 100 yards, and then drops off the graph 8" low at 267 yards.
The red trajectory is the same load zeroed at 200 yards. It starts 2" low, intersects with the LOA the first time at about 40 yards. At 120 yards, it's about 1.6" above the LOA, then drops, intersecting the LOA again at 200 yards. This is the second, or primary, zero. At 300 yards, it's about 7" low. Looking at the graph with the 200 yard zero, the point of impact (POI) at 100 yards would be about 1.6" above the point of aim (POA). At 240, the POI will be 2" below the POA. At 300, the POI will be 7.5" below the POA. Thus, to hit a small target at 300 yards, the shooter would have to hold 7" above the target. The bullet continues to fall relative to the line of aim as target range is increased.

thehair

hi lads have a look at RTE 1 teletext page 111:mad: sniper rifle .27 in limrick

IRLConor

thehair wrote: »

hi lads have a look at RTE 1 teletext page 111:mad:

Story here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0523/clancyc.html

On the one hand, it's muppetry to call a .270 a "sniper rifle" (isn't it used quite widely for deer and not at all by police/military snipers?) but on the other hand that guy was holding it without a license and probably for criminal purposes. It's the likes of him that are the root cause of a lot of the trouble for the legitimate shooters in Ireland so if he's found guilty I hope he gets a hefty sentence.

thehair

wait tell tommorw papers will said or RAGS PAPERS a bit of spin
to sale more papers and the sun-day worst paper
more fuel for the fire

It wasn't me!

IRLConor wrote: »

Story here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0523/clancyc.html

On the one hand, it's muppetry to call a .270 a "sniper rifle" (isn't it used quite widely for deer and not at all by police/military snipers?) but on the other hand that guy was holding it without a license and probably for criminal purposes. It's the likes of him that are the root cause of a lot of the trouble for the legitimate shooters in Ireland so if he's found guilty I hope he gets a hefty sentence.

Correct. From Wiki, "The .270 has never been a military caliber."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.270_Winchester

F-ClassWillie

It's one thing having a .270 deer hunting rifle, its another thing knowing how to use it. Used for poaching to feed the family no excuse but understandable otherwise all the novice hitman / sniper can expect from the snappy .270 is black eye & soar shoulder thats for starters... hours of dedicated practice.... study... nowhere like playing intendo!

Grizzly 45

Bend Over Here It Comes Again:(
Watch this deer rifle now become the ultimate deadly sniper rifle that costs over two million quid and is accurate to over one thousand miles with a 250k scope that can spot the goolies on a gnat at fifteen miles.
No doubt your man will say it was for self defence again:rolleyes:.
Sure got some long open tracts of property in Cliona Park.:rolleyes:

foxshooter243

it will probably turn out to have been stolen from some legitimate hunter

bullets

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Bend Over Here It Comes Again:(
Watch this deer rifle now become the ultimate deadly sniper rifle that costs over two million quid and is accurate to over one thousand miles with a 250k scope that can spot the goolies on a gnat at fifteen miles.
No doubt your man will say it was for self defence again:rolleyes:.
Sure got some long open tracts of property in Cliona Park.:rolleyes:

Since Limerick was mentioned...I was talking to a workmate in the stores
dept of my job. He said the UPS delivery guy that comes every morning was
in the Dooradoyle area making a delivery and some Foreign National (Female)
came out either pissed out of her brain or tanked up on drugs and pointed what looked like a real AK at him asking him for "papers" she then went back into the house. He nearly shat himeself called the cops and apparently she was arrested and the ERU took the front door of the house clean of the hinges when responding. Heard nothing on the news about it though.

~B