the stigmata

timetogetfit

How do athiests view the stigmata, what do you think it really was that people such as st francis of assisi and st padre pio suffered from

Hivemind187

Hysterics, charlatanism, exaggeration, hemophilia, lies, propaganda and possibly self-harm syndromes.

I think that just about sums it up.

Akrasia

I think its astonishing that anyone would believe that god would 'reward' the faithful by giving them painful wounds that never heal.

If you can believe that, you can believe anything.

timetogetfit

yes but there hasnt been any scientific explanation for it and they cant all be fakes

orestes

timetogetfit wrote: »

yes but there hasnt been any scientific explanation for it and they cant all be fakes

Yes they can, what makes you say they can't?

timetogetfit

orestes wrote: »

Yes they can, what makes you say they can't?

Can you explain how you would go about faking it then?

Akrasia

timetogetfit wrote: »

Can you explain how you would go about faking it then?

Well, Padre Pio used to dab himself with carbolic acid, but there are loads of other ways of doing it.

Then there's the psychosomatic explanation where intense psychological belief can manifest itself physically. (people drove themselves mad and made their bodies break down) but there's not much evidence for that, the most likely explanation is self mutilation.

orestes

timetogetfit wrote: »

Can you explain how you would go about faking it then?

I can't, but I would imagine some of the folks over on the magic and illusion forum would have a couple of ideas.

There is no more reason to believe stigmata is real than there is to believe David Copperfield can fly imo.

Dades

timetogetfit wrote: »

yes but there hasnt been any scientific explanation for it and they cant all be fakes

Why can't they all be fakes?

They can all be fakes in the same way that to catholicism every other religion is 'fake' without a scientific explanation.

Either you knew exactly what kind of answers you would get here - or you should have, tbh.

aidan24326

timetogetfit wrote: »

yes but there hasnt been any scientific explanation for it and they cant all be fakes

Yes they could. Exaggeration probably plays a part in it too.

Popinjay

orestes wrote: »

I can't, but I would imagine some of the folks over on the magic and illusion forum would have a couple of ideas.

*Swishes cape and appears in a puff of smoke*

Fear not, I have arrived. Although I'm just going to agree with Akrasia and add that you don't even need to hurt yourself to make it look like you have horrible flesh wounds.

*Swishes cape less dramatically and saunters off*

Dades

^^ Who WAS that guy? ^^ :eek:

iUseVi

Dades wrote: »

^^ Who WAS that guy? ^^ :eek:

I don't know, but it was truly glorious.

Zombrex

timetogetfit wrote: »

yes but there hasnt been any scientific explanation for it and they cant all be fakes

Why not?

Popinjay

Does that mean I ruin the mystique if I ever post here again???

Seriously though, even from watching your average horror flick, it should be painfully obvious that you don't need to melt your own hands to look like you're full of holes. While some of the techniques would be quite different, many of the techniques for doing this are pretty old, some dating back to egyptian times.

Say what you like, Illusion is one of the oldest professions and much more stylish than the other two.

Timetogetfit, would you be of the opinion that all spiritualists and mediums can't all be fakes too?

Pompey Magnus

If I remember correctly I read recently that the vast majority (all?) of recorded stigmata up until recent years appeared on the palms of hands. After a study a few years ago indicated that the nails would have probably gone through the wrists to best support the weight of a human body there suddenly emerged a huge jump in the number of stigmata appearing on the wrists. I wonder why?

Hivemind187

How could they all be fakes ...

Two words.

"Psychic" "Surgery".

If you are daft enough to believe that people can spontaneously manifest wounds with no tangible external interference then you must believe that psychic surgeons are really removing cancers and tumors from people without making incisions. Ever notice how they never do "psychic kidney transplants" or "psychic appendectomies" - because they are lying charlatans performing a very obvious trick.

And so are "stigmatists".

http://www.friendsoffoamy.com/index.php?id=133

JimiTime

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

If I remember correctly I read recently that the vast majority (all?) of recorded stigmata up until recent years appeared on the palms of hands. After a study a few years ago indicated that the nails would have probably gone through the wrists to best support the weight of a human body there suddenly emerged a huge jump in the number of stigmata appearing on the wrists. I wonder why?

LOL:D I would not be surprised in the slightest.

timetogetfit

If I remember correctly I read recently that the vast majority (all?) of recorded stigmata up until recent years appeared on the palms of hands. After a study a few years ago indicated that the nails would have probably gone through the wrists to best support the weight of a human body there suddenly emerged a huge jump in the number of stigmata appearing on the wrists. I wonder why?

Thats still up for debate, there is an argument that people being crucified were also tied up by ropes to support the body.I would imagine that those that invented cruifixen would want the person to suffer as long as possible if someone was nailed through the wrists the blood loss would be massive and a person wouldnt take long to die at all

5uspect

Any evidence for rope burn stigmata then?

Does the shift in the type of stigmata observed over time reflect in anyway anything else other than the effects of educating the con artists? Certainly the "evolution" of flying saucers and UFOs is strikingly similar.

Ekancone

What about all the people in India who claim to be physical manifestations of Hindu gods? What about all the people who claim to be Jesus and are locked away for coming up with such claims? What are your thoughts on that timetogetfits?

Hivemind187

timetogetfit wrote: »

Thats still up for debate, there is an argument that people being crucified were also tied up by ropes to support the body.I would imagine that those that invented cruifixen would want the person to suffer as long as possible if someone was nailed through the wrists the blood loss would be massive and a person wouldnt take long to die at all

Um, again, no.

Usually a penetrating wound such as those inflicted my ramming great bloody nails through the wrists are kept somewhat more closed by leaving the penetrating object where it is rather than removing it.

Further, nailing people up would not have been common practice since it is easier to lash someone to a cross using lengths of rope. I might be wrong but I think the nails were supposed to be part of the special infliction of pain on Christ.

Your argument also ignores the most pertinent fact - the human hand is incapable of providing the physical strength to support the mass of a body suspended in such a manner. Unless christ had been doing some serious "hand exercises" to improve his muscle tone ... but that would probably have been a sin.

toiletduck

Not really sure where to put this... http://www.independent.ie/national-news/church-takes-padre-pio-barb-to-press-ombudsman-1386446.html

ONE of Ireland's favourite saints is the subject of a gripe to the agency that deals with media wrongdoings.

The Catholic Church has sent an official petition to the Office of the Press Ombudsman after a newspaper referred to revered saint Padre Pio as "an opportunistic con artist".

The description of the vastly popular Capuchin friar not only hurt the sensitivities of Catholics, but also the Church itself, according to Church management. So the Catholic Communications Office (CCO) sent a complaint to the Ombudsman, Professor John Horgan, citing the article as "offensive".

CCO spokesman Martin Long said that he wanted a chance to address the opinion of columnist Liam Fay in the Sunday Times newspaper.

Mr Fay referred to Padre Pio as "a con artist" and an "opportunistic mystic".

Padre Pio is a hugely popular saint, credited with performing at least 1,000 miracle cures and famed for his stigmata markings. His birthplace in Italy attracts seven million pilgrims a year from all over the world.

Mr Long said he contacted the Sunday Times to request that it publish a letter of protest, but it refused to do so.

Mr Long pointed out that the paper did publish readers' letters critical of the article, but he felt that an official letter from the CCO should have been given precedence.

It is a matter of course in letters to the editor that official bodies are given their chance to speak up.

Mr Long said that, as a result, the "inaccurate and offensive article remains both on the record and unchallenged by an official Catholic Church source".

A spokesman for the Sunday Times said he was "not aware Mr Long made a complaint to the Press Ombudsman" and claimed to have had no contact from the Ombudsman in relation to any such complaint.

Mr Long wrote the letter to the paper on behalf of the CCO and the Irish Catholic Bishops' Conference.

He is now awaiting a response from the Ombudsman on the matter.

The Ombudsman will decide whether or not the complaint from the CCO will be upheld or rejected.

Dades

^^ That has really pissed me off. ^^

Obviously the catholic church are still trying to make people afraid to speak frankly about religious themes. It the opinion of a newspaper columnist - get over it. That said I've always found Liam Fay a bit of tool.