Italy tackles Roma Gypsies.

Doctor DooM

DesF wrote: »

All you are doing is bandying around the racist tag.

Why shouldn't we deport them, why should we put up with the ones who are acting outside the law?

What you said was racist. You said all of them were bad, without exception. Thats racism.

But I agree with your point. no foreign criminals should be allowed use Ireland as their stomping ground.

Doctor DooM

aidan_walsh wrote: »

/pays SDooM

What can I say, he shoots, he scores.

Sparky

Any Roma I have come across have always been begging, trying to push cheap rings on you and then try to guilt trip you by showing their some other Romas kid at you.

I seen a Roma girl recently, no older than 20 with a child getting sasuages at a deli counter, then she goes up to the counter and then guilt trips the cashier that its for her child. If she was so poor, why the reason for all her teeth to be gold?
We dont need all this begging and whatnot

Sam Vimes

DesF wrote: »

Race doesn't come into it. If these were pure stock aryan people coming and doing this, I'd say the same.

it's not racism by the exact definition of racism but it is prejudice. just like if you hate all people from ballymun it's prejudice. someone doesn't have to belong to a different race for discriminating against them to be wrong.

i'm not disagreenig with you on the roma's though. just pointing out that it is a form of racism. i worked in retail for years and i don't think you'll find a single retail employee with a good opinion of roma gypsies. the most ridiculous example i ever heard was when my girlfriend was working in a pet shop and a woman with her two kids stole a hamster out of it's cage.

Sherifu

caoibhin wrote: »

Bloody PC gone mad i say.
Drag em into the street and shoot them in the head.
That ill learn em.

Dude this joke got old. Let it go.

_blank_

SDooM wrote: »

What you said was racist. You said all of them were bad, without exception. Thats racism.

The exception proves the rule.

The fact that somebody knows a couple of successful Roma. Wow.

The vast majority have no interest in that though.

Kick out all the parasites, be they Roma, African, Asian, dammit even American. If an American person comes here and expected to get that treatment, fúck them, fúck off back to where you came from.

SDooM wrote: »

But I agree with your point. no foreign criminals should be allowed use Ireland as their stomping ground.

No people who beg with children.

No people who sponge off my tax money.

Look, I'd turf Irish people out too, but they are at least Irish.

We have enough of our own problems, without taking on others too.

Maximilian

togster wrote: »

Sorry but... i responded to a claim that ALL were like this. No group of people are without fault. It is racist to claim that ALL the members of a group of people are criminals. It is mindless racism because people don't take the time out to investigate what is happening. Roma gypsies are not the same as romanians. They originate from northern india and travelled.

Mena wrote: »

Ah sure, you Irish are all wife beating drunks anyway no? I can't remember when last I saw a sober Irishman on a Friday night...

Gotta love generalisations!

This being said, if any immigrant (or native for that matter!) could not be arsed to contribute, turf them out. Lets just have less of the generalisations as they simply weaken your argument.

Generalisations are necessary in these discussions but of course there will be exceptions. Generally speaking then, the following facts about Roma Gypsies are pretty hard to dispute. These people:

(a) Beg, in an obnoxious way;
(b) are involved in proportionately more crime than the average person;
(c) contribute nothing or very little to society;

Why on earth then, can anyone blame me for wishing to exclude them from our country. What debt do we owe these people? Are we too timid to say "actually no piss off we don't want you, sorry about that. Try France maybe"

As regards those who defend Roma gypsies - I think their sympathies are genuinely either misguided or misplaced. Hopefully the latter as there are far needier people out there.

Gone West

to the kool kids on the thread you know who you are

I get the point re: not 100/100 of the Romas you meet in Dublin are beggars, scammers, non-workers, etc.
Fair enough, but feck it, its close enough to 100%.

You don't have to be prejudiced, thats a silly thing to say. If I saw some romas chilling out, or eating in a restaurant, drinking a pint in a pub, anything at all, alls cool, I've not "pre judged" them. But when you see them sitting beside a phone box in the rain holding up a helpless baby to the wind and rain for sympathy coins, well then you judge them.
Its not prejudice, because its plain that they are scum when you see them doing this. Someone come on here and try to defend their actions...

I get the defending a people, the standing up for freedom and Human rights and all that, absolutely.

But seriously, somebody tell me that 90% or more of Romas that you see in Ireland aren't up to no good.

Doctor DooM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

it's not racism by the exact definition of racism but it is prejudice. just like if you hate all people from ballymun it's prejudice. someone doesn't have to belong to a different race for discriminating against them to be wrong.

i'm not disagreenig with you on the roma's though. just pointing out that it is a form of racism. i worked in retail for years and i don't think you'll find a single retail employee with a good opinion of roma gypsies. the most ridiculous example i ever heard was when my girlfriend was working in a pet shop and a woman with her two kids stole a hamster out of it's cage.

+1, from another ex retailer. I have had many many bad encounters with Roma in the past. In fact I used to do a real life roll eye smiley when I saw them come in the door. But I still wouldn't make a statement like that.

Sherifu

There must be a hell of a lot of them in Europe by now because I don't see too many of them here anymore.

SimpleSam06

Racism according to the UN:

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

Degsy

DesF wrote: »

If our government don't do something about the problem, I can see the rise of a proper right-wing party in Ireland in the next few years.

And what harm in that?All New Labour in England did was overrun the country with bogus asylum seekers,lose the war on crime,ban country sports and commit troops to a two wars they're too scared to admit they've no business in.

_blank_

As I've said already.

It's not the fact that they are Roma, I couldn't care less about that.

It's more they way they behave.

I've no time for it, and the bleeding hearts still haven't addressed the points, preferring to bandy the rasims card.

So what, it was racist, get over it.

Now, why the fúck are you defending them? The ones that sponge, leech and are general parasite.

The ones that beg with children.

Dudess

I agree SDooM. Those "yor just a bunch of PC do-gooder liberal bla bla" comments drive me insane. They really make those who use them come across as very, very stupid. I don't mind "bleeding heart" though - I think there are some very naive individuals when it comes to issues such as, I suppose, crime and immigration mostly. Also there are some dreadfully militant super leftie... bigots really. They're as bad as their counterparts on the right. They preach "wah, wah, be nice to everyone" while being c*nts themselves. I think "bleeding heart" is a good term for them. I'm a moderate liberal and types like the above give the likes of me a bad name - and thus I regularly get the "PC", "do-gooder" comments thrown at me. What really makes me laugh is the term "liberal" being used as an insult: "oh stfu you bloody liberal". Er... yes. I'm so insulted because you just called me... a liberal! :eek: It's sad the way it's actually seen as a dirty word. Well yes I am a liberal actually so I ain't insulted when I get called one...
But not all liberals are bleeding hearts either.

_blank_

Degsy wrote: »

And what harm in that?All New Labour in England did was overrun the country with bogus asylum seekers,lose the war on crime,ban country sports and commit troops to a two wars they're too scared to admit they've no business in.

Oh, I'd nearly be tempted to join up if the current politicians don't do something about it.

Doctor DooM

DesF wrote: »

The exception proves the rule.

The fact that somebody knows a couple of successful Roma. Wow.

The vast majority have no interest in that though.

Kick out all the parasites, be they Roma, African, Asian, dammit even American. If an American person comes here and expected to get that treatment, fúck them, fúck off back to where you came from.


No people who beg with children.

No people who sponge off my tax money.

Look, I'd turf Irish people out too, but they are at least Irish.

We have enough of our own problems, without taking on others too.

Vast majority is different to all.

And how do you know its a vast majority? Surely the reason you've never noticed any successful Roma(or I, tbh) is because they're NOT out on the streets making life a misery for you?

I completely agree btw, if someone is caught breaking the law and is not contributing in anyway, GTFO.

Maximilian

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Racism according to the UN:

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

I think most reasonable people who would like to kick Roma Gypsies out of Ireland, want to do so for reasons other than race, colour, descent, ethnic origin; so its not "racial discrimination" then if that was your point (apologies if it was the reverse)

javaboy

Maximilian wrote: »

I think most reasonable people who would like to kick Roma Gypsies out of Ireland, want to do so for reasons other than race, colour, descent, ethnic origin, so its not "racial discrimination" then.

Bingo.

_blank_

For the last time.

I DON'T FÚCKING CARE THEY ARE ROMA!

I care that these people feel they are able to act like this.

Sam Vimes

Dudess wrote: »

It's sad the way it's actually seen as a dirty word. Well yes I am a liberal actually so I ain't insulted when I get called one...
But not all liberals are bleeding hearts either.

yeah i think that's hilarious. take america as an example. they use liberal like it's a dirty word but then proudly talk about how america is the best country in the world because it has the most liberty.

would these people prefer to live under a dictator or something?

Dudess

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Racism according to the UN:

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

Yep, nothing to do with having problems with a group of people, the majority of whose members' sole functions are to commit crime and to sponge. The fact that they happen to be from the same ethnic group is of no concern to me. That's not what I'm targeting, it's their behaviour that I'm targeting.

_blank_

Are the bleeding hearts going to answer questions soon, or continue to get nice links and quotes explaining what racism is?

Xavi6

SDooM wrote: »

+1, from another ex retailer. I have had many many bad encounters with Roma in the past. In fact I used to do a real life roll eye smiley when I saw them come in the door. But I still wouldn't make a statement like that.

Ehhhh what's the difference between thinking it and saying it?

Doctor DooM

Dudess wrote: »

I agree SDooM. Those "yor just a bunch of PC do-gooder liberal bla bla" comments drive me insane. They really make those who use them come across as very, very stupid. I don't mind "bleeding heart" though - I think there are some very naive individuals when it comes to issues such as, I suppose, crime and immigration mostly. Also there are some dreadfully militant super leftie... bigots really. They're as bad as their counterparts on the right. They preach "wah, wah, be nice to everyone" while being c*nts themselves. I think "bleeding heart" is a good term for them. I'm a moderate liberal and types like the above give the likes of me a bad name - and thus I regularly get the "PC", "do-gooder" comments thrown at me. What really makes me laugh is the term "liberal" being used as an insult: "oh stfu you bloody liberal". Er... yes. I'm so insulted because you just called me... a liberal! :eek: It's sad the way it's actually seen as a dirty word. Well yes I am a liberal actually so I ain't insulted when I get called one...
But not all liberals are bleeding hearts either.

Agree completely.

Once again, there is a problem, but going "All Roma are scum" isn't going to get it solved because the lefties will just dig in because it's racist and offends everything they stand for. If you were to state "I believe that every foreign national who is not contributing to society and is caught breaking the law should be fecked back to whence they came" without making it a left/right battle, maybe something would get bashed out.

FX Meister

po0k wrote: »

Show me a post-celtic-tiger cub who doesn't sh1t all over town on a Saturday night when out drinking with their kin, dropping rubbish everywhere, running around like petulant little children with no regard for common decency.

Yes, gas them all.

The post celtic tiger cubs pay tax, which helps to clean up after the mess you say they cause

Maximilian

Dudess wrote: »

I agree SDooM. Those "yor just a bunch of PC do-gooder liberal bla bla" comments drive me insane. They really make those who use them come across as very, very stupid. I don't mind "bleeding heart" though - I think there are some very naive individuals when it comes to issues such as, I suppose, crime and immigration mostly. Also there are some dreadfully militant super leftie... bigots really. They're as bad as their counterparts on the right. They preach "wah, wah, be nice to everyone" while being c*nts themselves. I think "bleeding heart" is a good term for them. I'm a moderate liberal and types like the above give the likes of me a bad name - and thus I regularly get the "PC", "do-gooder" comments thrown at me. What really makes me laugh is the term "liberal" being used as an insult: "oh stfu you bloody liberal". Er... yes. I'm so insulted because you just called me... a liberal! :eek: It's sad the way it's actually seen as a dirty word. Well yes I am a liberal actually so I ain't insulted when I get called one...
But not all liberals are bleeding hearts either.

There's nothing wrong with being liberal or right-wing per se as long as you are reasonable. Its only when things go to extremes that it all goes pear shaped.

Doctor DooM

Xavi6 wrote: »

Ehhhh what's the difference between thinking it and saying it?

Because when any known tea leaf walked into my store I rolled my eyes, and I try to keep an open mind.

Sam Vimes

DesF wrote: »

For the last time.

I DON'T FÚCKING CARE THEY ARE ROMA!

I care that these people feel they are able to act like this.

i think you're missing the point here. they are a sub group of people are you are judging this entire group or a vast majority of it. this is prejudice. if you said "everyone over 50 is useless" it would be the same. it's discrimination.

however, if you had statistics that said that 95% of roma gypsies are involved in crime it would no longer be prejudice. what you have is anecdotal evidence.

_blank_

SDooM wrote: »

"All Roma are scum"

Who said that?

Where?

SDooM wrote: »

"I believe that every foreign national who is not contributing to society and is caught breaking the law should be fecked back to whence they came"

The bleeding hearts though.

They are the ones who start getting hysterical about racism etc etc, without looking at the issues.

"oh oh no, you aren't going to start saying that about anyone, nuh-uh, that's racist that is".

Degsy

Sam Vimes wrote: »

yeah i think that's hilarious. take america as an example. they use liberal like it's a dirty word but then proudly talk about how america is the best country in the world because it has the most liberty.

would these people prefer to live under a dictator or something?

Whether you like it or not,America has the most widely copied culture in the world.Its democratic constitution is also widely copied and its immigration ploicies were the envy of the world.The unfortunate truth is Ireland isnt america,we dont have the space and we dont have the rescources to just put up anybody who arrives on our shores.

Dudess

Maximilian wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with being liberal or right-wing per se as long as you are reasonable. Its only when things go to extremes that it all goes pear shaped.

Exactly. I've no time for fanatics or extremists of any persuasion. And it's also a problem when the fanatical behaviour of one group is used to dismiss someone who holds the same beliefs but who is actually a reasonable, moderate person. I'm a feminist but I'm far, far from a militant man hating nut job - yet sometimes I'd be almost afraid to say I'm a feminist...

_blank_

Sam Vimes wrote: »

i think you're missing the point here. they are a sub group of people are you are judging this entire group or a vast majority of it. this is prejudice. if you said "everyone over 50 is useless" it would be the same. it's discrimination.

however, if you had statistics that said that 95% of roma gypsies are involved in crime it would no longer be prejudice. what you have is anecdotal evidence.

OK.

I apologise for my generalisation.

Now, will you address the issues, instead of being a pedantic bleeding heart.

togster

DesF wrote: »

Are the bleeding hearts going to answer questions soon, or continue to get nice links and quotes explaining what racism is?

Are the racists going to stop spoutinh horse sh!t?

What's your question? Whether we should kick out the bad ones and keep the good ones?

FX Meister

DesF wrote: »

They aren't a different race.

Yes they are. You might not like it though.

Sam Vimes

Degsy wrote: »

Whether you like it or not,America has the most widely copied culture in the world.Its democratic constitution is also widely copied and its immigration ploicies were the envy of the world.The unfortunate truth is Ireland isnt america,we dont have the space and we dont have the rescources to just put up anybody who arrives on our shores.

i never said anything about whether i like it or not, i was just pointing out how some people use the word liberal with negative connotations and then talk about how liberty is such a great thing. a contradiction no?

Degsy

Sam Vimes wrote: »

i think you're missing the point here. they are a sub group of people are you are judging this entire group or a vast majority of it. this is prejudice. if you said "everyone over 50 is useless" it would be the same. it's discrimination.

however, if you had statistics that said that 95% of roma gypsies are involved in crime it would no longer be prejudice. what you have is anecdotal evidence.

Lets just say if every single red-headed woman you ever say had big tits,would you then say that in your opinion all red-headed women had big tits?What would you say if somebody asked you to prove it??

javaboy

SDooM wrote:

Agree completely.

Once again, there is a problem, but going "All Roma are scum" isn't going to get it solved because the lefties will just dig in because it's racist and offends everything they stand for. If you were to state "I believe that every foreign national who is not contributing to society and is caught breaking the law should be fecked back to whence they came" without making it a left/right battle, maybe something would get bashed out.

Unfortunately a reasonable person can make that statement but along the way towards some extremely liberal people's ears, it becomes

"I believe that every foreign national who is not contributing to society and is caught breaking the law should be fecked back to whence they came".

and that pretty much makes any discussion on the topic impossible. I consider myself a moderate liberal as Elvis said above but I do believe any foreign national who is not making an attempt to contribute or who is not a genuine asylum seeker should be sent packing. But I am very careful about how I say that and who I say it to because it will as often as not be picked up as racism.

Doctor DooM

Admittedly "all roma are scum" was a paraphrase, but the term scum has been applied to them before here and they have been referred to as animals in this thread.

DesF wrote: »

This is what they are like. This is what they do.

Here is the offending article.

How are you defining bleeding heart, btw? I'm left wing. What do you want answers to?

TBH you are using very emotive language for the opposing side which is prob the reason you are not getting well written answers.

togster

Degsy wrote: »

Lets just say if every single red-headed woman you ever say had big tits,would you then say that in your opinion all red-headed women had big tits?What would you say if somebody asked you to prove it??

OK so evidence is pointless?

chopperbyrne

DesF wrote: »

It isn't racism tbh.

It's ethnic criticism Bill!

Sam Vimes

DesF wrote: »

OK.

I apologise for my generalisation.

Now, will you address the issues, instead of being a pedantic bleeding heart.

i'm not being pedantic. making a sweeping generalisation about roma's is discrimination. you may be right (and from hundreds of personal experiences i believe you are) but until there is hard evidence to support it all we have is a feeling that most of them are like that and it's unfair to tar them all with the same brush

in our society you can't pick on one group of people. you can only judge them on an individual basis. so what we should do is remove foreign nationals from our country that have commited crimes, rather than letting them away with it as currently happens. if you and me are right, that will remove 95% of roma gypsies in a few months without any suggestion of racism

but if you just put every roma gypsy on a boat whether they've been proven to commit a crime or not, you are discriminating

_blank_

DesF wrote: »

Bleeding hearts, answer this.

Should Ireland allow every Tom, Dick and Harry from all corners of the globe into the country, and then allow them to live in the filth and frankly animal conditions that existed on the M50 Roundabout?

DesF wrote: »

Also the fact that Begging was basically made legal recently, it gave these societal leeches a carte blanche.

Bleeding Hearts answer this.

Is it ok for these people to shove their young kids in the faces of passing pedestrians and motorists while begging?

DesF wrote: »

All you are doing is bandying around the racist tag.

Why shouldn't we deport them, why should we put up with the ones who are acting outside the law?

DesF wrote: »

Now, why the fúck are you defending them? The ones that sponge, leech and are general parasite.

The ones that beg with children.

SDooM wrote: »

Here is the offending article.

Which I've already apologised for, so here we go again. Round and round in circles, at the behest of the bleeding hearts.

It's tiresome.

togster

javaboy wrote: »

Unfortunately a reasonable person can make that statement but along the way towards some extremely liberal people's ears, it becomes

"I believe that every foreign national who is not contributing to society and is caught breaking the law should be fecked back to whence they came".

and that pretty much makes any discussion on the topic impossible. I consider myself a moderate liberal as Elvis said above but I do believe any foreign national who is not making an attempt to contribute or who is not a genuine asylum seeker should be sent packing. But I am very careful about how I say that and who I say it to because it will as often as not be picked up as racism.

Thats not racism.

+1 from me. It's when people make retarded general statements about bleeding hearts and ALL people of that society are bad people, that's what pisses me off, but really it's there own problem.

Maximilian

Sam Vimes wrote: »

i think you're missing the point here. they are a sub group of people are you are judging this entire group or a vast majority of it. this is prejudice. if you said "everyone over 50 is useless" it would be the same. it's discrimination.

however, if you had statistics that said that 95% of roma gypsies are involved in crime it would no longer be prejudice. what you have is anecdotal evidence.

This really is arse. Call it prejudice if you like but such things don't develop in a vacuum. Particularly where intelligent, educated people are involved.

People's opinions on Romas are primarily formed from their own experiences, not from the experiences of others. So common and widespread are these experiences, that it becomes reasonable to conclude that it applies to many more Roma. When you then meet many other people who share the same view from similar experience, it becomes more reasonable to conclude it applies to a majority of Roma.

If it were the case that assuming the vast majority of Roma are beggers etc.
is actually wrong, by all means bring forth the evidence to show you.

_blank_

chopperbyrne wrote: »

It's ethnic criticism Bill!

Man, that is such a brilliant quote.

Thanks a lot for that interjection of humour.

Sam Vimes

Degsy wrote: »

Lets just say if every single red-headed woman you ever say had big tits,would you then say that in your opinion all red-headed women had big tits?

no, i wouldn't say that. that would be a generalisation

Degsy wrote: »

What would you say if somebody asked you to prove it??

assuming i had said that, i would do a census of red heads and find out if it was true.

i don't really understand your point here

togster

DesF wrote: »

OK.

Now, will you address the issues, instead of being a pedantic bleeding heart.

Anyone who is a foreign national and is not contributing in a constrctive manner should be deported, yes. However i do think that they should be given a chance to contribute. Look at the polish and the lithuanians etc etc.

See Des not ALL of us "do-gooders" are bleeding heart softies. Generalistion is a weak trait in a person tbh.

Doctor DooM

DesF wrote: »

Which I've already apologised for, so here we go again. Round and round in circles, at the behest of the bleeding hearts.

It's tiresome.

I've answered many times:

If someone commits a crime, feck them out.

Don't feck them out because of nationality, so we actually agree.

I believe the time has come to say "Yore ma".

stevoman

Maximilian wrote: »

What the hell do they need work permits for?

wait for it..............

so they have to work:eek:

all the stars

Well,
Glad to see something being done anyway -

1) I know a Romanian lady, she is horrified by the Roma's living locally when they try talking to her... she is mortified that people will think she is like them or indeed that they will think she is like them.

2) they bug the sh*te outta me, selling flippin sparkly cowboy hats... where i live aint exactly Dublin... also, quite a few of the women are involved in prostitution - i happen to know this as fact (unfortunately)... and they do this with Husband & kid in the house!! :eek:

3) how can people be allowed into a country when they are destitute? or have no income, savings,house, job lined or and all that kinda thing (this is a question - i really dont understand )