Italy tackles Roma Gypsies.

_blank_

togster wrote: »

However i do think that they should be given a chance to contribute.

How much of a chance?

A week? A month? A year?

javaboy

DesF wrote: »

Man, that is such a brilliant quote.

Thanks a lot for that interjection of humour.

"The likes of Roma couldn`t beat a top English or Spanish side"

Eamon's been guilty of a bit of ethnic criticism himself though

Degsy

Sam Vimes wrote: »

no, i wouldn't say that. that would be a generalisation



assuming i had said that, i would do a census of red heads and find out if it was true.

i don't really understand your point here

No you wouldnt "do a census"..you'd generalise to the tune that all red-headed women had big tits based on your experience.If everybody else said the same you'd come to the conclusion that you were right to generalise.If everybody's experiences of roma are negative then it no longer behoves people to prove the positive,it becomes accepted that there are no positive aspects to thier behaviour.You see?

Maximilian

stevoman wrote: »

wait for it..............

so they have to work:eek:

That's the point of a work permit, alas.

togster

DesF wrote: »

How much of a chance?

A week? A month? A year?

Depends on a multitude of factors.

Maximilian

Degsy wrote: »

No you wouldnt "do a census"..you'd generalise to the tune that all red-headed women had big tits based on your experience.If everybody else said the same you'd come to the conclusion that you were right to generalise.If everybody's experiences of roma are negative then it no longer behoves people to prove the positive,it becomes accepted that there are no positive aspects to thier behaviour.You see?

Also, all red headed women have in fact small breasts.

stevoman

all the stars wrote: »

Well,
Glad to see something being done anyway -

1) I know a Romanian lady, she is horrified by the Roma's living locally when they try talking to her... she is mortified that people will think she is like them or indeed that they will think she is like them.

+1

I work with a lady from romania and she is an absolute lady so she is!



Roma are a different race. If you look back to WW2 hitler exterminated laods of them as they were an ethnic minority. The romanian goverment sided with hitler!

I dont think its fair to tar people from romania with the ROMA brush.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_people

javaboy

stevoman wrote: »

+1

I work with a lady from romania and she is an absolute lady so she is!

Roma are a different race. If you look back to WW2 hitler exterminated laods of them as they were an ethnic minority. The romanian goverment sided with hitler!

Uh-oh.

Sam Vimes

Degsy wrote: »

No you wouldnt "do a census"..you'd generalise to the tune that all red-headed women had big tits based on your experience.If everybody else said the same you'd come to the conclusion that you were right to generalise.If everybody's experiences of roma are negative then it no longer behoves people to prove the positive,it becomes accepted that there are no positive aspects to thier behaviour.You see?

No I don’t see. That’s called discrimination. Think of it this way. You only ever see the thieves and beggars and general scum. Maybe there are thousands of roma who work hard and just live their lives like normal people but they walk past you in the street and you never even notice them because they’re not in your face.

And that is why anecdotal evidence should not be considered when dealing with a group of people

every roma you've had experience of has been scum but that's only because you haven't had any experiences with the good ones. until you've met every single roma and determined that they are all thieves, you are discriminating and you are wrong to do so

Gone West

Anyways, Goodwins law, I'm off. Enjoy the thread guys.

Dudess, you're doing a stand up job with AH, keep it up
Max, I doubt sense can be beaten into extremists on either side of anything!

Doctor DooM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

No I don’t see. That’s called discrimination. Think of it this way. You only ever see the thieves and beggars and general scum. Maybe there are thousands of roma who work hard and just live their lives like normal people but they walk past you in the street and you never even notice them because they’re not in your face.

And that is why anecdotal evidence should not be considered when dealing with a group of people

every roma you've had experience of has been scum but that's only because you haven't had any experiences with the good ones. until you've met every single roma and determined that they are all theives, you are discriminating and you are wrong to do so

Hit the nail on the head there.

justsomebloke

all the stars wrote: »

1) I know a Romanian lady, she is horrified by the Roma's living locally when they try talking to her...

just remember there is a difference between Romanians and Romas.

The few Romanians that I have meet put me to shame with how nice they actually are

Every Roma I have come across on the other hand as been a sponge on society and don't deserve to be here. That said I would lump every Irish sponger in with this aswell however as they are technically our problem there is very little we can do about them

all the stars

jsb wrote: »

just remember there is a difference between Romanians and Romas.

The few Romanians that I have meet put me to shame with how nice they actually are

oh i know there is a differance, was just saying how mad it is that even the romanian lady is mortified if they try talking to her - she doesn't want to even speak to them! She kinda looks down on them as she is very qualified at what she does and works very hard..

Maximilian

Sam Vimes wrote: »

No I don’t see. That’s called discrimination. Think of it this way. You only ever see the thieves and beggars and general scum. Maybe there are thousands of roma who work hard and just live their lives like normal people but they walk past you in the street and you never even notice them because they’re not in your face.

And that is why anecdotal evidence should not be considered when dealing with a group of people

every roma you've had experience of has been scum but that's only because you haven't had any experiences with the good ones. until you've met every single roma and determined that they are all theives, you are discriminating and you are wrong to do so

That would be a fine argument if it were true as regards Roma. The fact is peoples assumptions about the minority do hold as against the majority also.

Hold up against anybody else's experiences. Against almost anything you ever read about them in a newspaper or saw on the news. etc.

As generalisations go, its a pretty accurate one but nobody is saying that it applies to 100% of them and is anything other than a generalisation, short hand to assist in the discussion of a larger issue. One that seems to have drifted into an OT discussion of who's a racist/liberal/nazi/inductive reasoner/roma/bleedin heart/large-chested red-head/etc.

The argument isn't about chucking out all the Romas, its about chucking out all the Roma beggers, thieves & leetches. Chuck out any other ones too. Romas who have something to contribute should stay of course.

To anyone who says otherwise: why do you want to have such people in this country? You are the people that need to defend your views, not the other way around?

boneless

Stormfront Forum???

tororosso

Completely agree. I have no time for them (the collective group of non contributing people). Have had a fair few experiences with them and seen them in action; obviously not all roma gypsies are the same but they (the majority of them in operation here) have earned a reputation from their own actions simple as that...I've been to Italy a fair few times and the number of roma gyspies is significantly higher over there. About a year ago the issue was high on the News agendas because a woman was raped and brutally murdered by a man near a railway station. Anyway, the man happened to be a roma gyspy and as the news story grew they began to document the case of roma gypsies squatting in hidden locations around the city of Rome. The programme I saw at the time was fascinating as the news crew followed the Carabineri around as they uncovered and dismantled illegal settlements..you wouldn't believe the amount of huts and sheds they had constructed under bridges and along the Tiber....the problem the police faced was that they could only dismantle and remove the building materials (scrap/wood etc) and the roma would go to another location and start again...the reality is that the majority of italians don't want underworld style settlements developing in their cities.

togster wrote: »

Anyone who is a foreign national and is not contributing in a constrctive manner should be deported, yes. However i do think that they should be given a chance to contribute. Look at the polish and the lithuanians etc etc.

Dudess

boneless wrote: »

Stormfront Forum???

I must admit I don't fully understand the above remark. However I'm gonna assume it's a dig at those who object to the anti social practices endemic within considerable pockets of Roma immigrant society. If so, what utter crap. And quite insulting actually. Again, this is a perfect example of mindless bigotry coming from the left - and I'm left-wing and regularly accused of being "PC" etc. Read the posts properly.

Doctor DooM

Dudess wrote: »

I must admit I don't fully understand the above remark. However I'm gonna assume it's a dig at those who object to the anti social practices endemic within considerable pockets of Roma immigrant society. If so, what utter crap. And quite insulting actually. Again, this is a perfect example of mindless bigotry coming from the left - and I'm left-wing and regularly accused of being "PC" etc. Read the posts properly.

...bleeding heart...

Sam Vimes

Maximilian wrote: »

Hold up against anybody else's experiences. Against almost anything you ever read about them in a newspaper or saw on the news. etc.

You see that’s exactly the point. People who work 9-5 to feed their kids don’t make the papers or the news.

Maximilian wrote: »

As generalisations go, its a pretty accurate one but nobody is saying that it applies to 100% of them and is anything other than a generalisation, short hand to assist in the discussion of a larger issue. One that seems to have drifted into an OT discussion of who's a racist/liberal/nazi/inductive reasoner/roma/bleedin heart/large-chested red-head/etc.

You only have an assumption that it’s an accurate one. You can say that it’s the majority and not all of them are like that etc but the effect is the same as if you said it was 100%.unless you have named exceptions you are tarring them all with the same brush.

Maximilian wrote: »

The argument isn't about chucking our all the Romas, its about chucking out all the Roma beggers, thieves & leetches.

Let’s rephrase that: The argument isn't about chucking our all the Romas, its about chucking out all the beggers, thieves & leetches.

Why pick on romas? Why even mention romas if all you have a problem with is thieves?

People should be judged on an individual basis. All foreign national criminals should be deported. If that results in the removal of 95% of romas from our country then so be it. Nothing racist has occured

justsomebloke

Dudess wrote: »

I must admit I don't fully understand the above remark. However I'm gonna assume it's a dig at those who object to the anti social practices endemic within considerable pockets of Roma immigrant society. If so, what utter crap. And quite insulting actually. Again, this is a perfect example of mindless bigotry coming from the left - and I'm left-wing and regularly accused of being "PC" etc. Read the posts properly.

feckin feminist

dodgyme

Lets get a few thing straight. Romanians are not roma. If you hate roma dont confuse them with romanians. My opinion of romanians is generally positive. I worked there back in the day pre2000 and again on and off in the years in between and saw a massive shift in mentality as the country developed beyond ceauceseau. I think people need reminding of the fact that this was the toughest of all the communist regimes. Also people need to know the country is quite large and the closer to bucharest you got the more affected by the regime people were (I was told this alot when I was there). I also worked in Transilvania and found differences in attitude due to the distance from the capital. People come to Ireland and compare kerry and dublin so I guess I was doing the same. People form opinions and perhaps generalise.

One thing I noticed was when I was first there,how hated the roma were and the place was full of them (to coin a phase:o!) however when I was last (2006)there the numbers had fallen so much you didnt seem to see as many of them on the streets etc. It did strike me that Dublin at that stage was having an alarming increase in roma (which now seems possibly to have tapered off slightly) so I guessed while they were leaving bucharest and other places they were moving to Dublin and other places.

Now to those in the debate that claim you cant generalise well good luck to you since that is the only way to make sense of the world. You cannot go and meet ever single Roma so you have to generealise, and by generalising you will form an opinion like I did. The human brain is conditioned to generalise and learn from its mistakes. I generally like romanians perhaps because I know the country well and have friends there, I generally see roma as a nuisance moving around looking for the next scam. I dont think i need to live in a gyspy camp for a year to prove my point. Perhaps the person who says you have to meet every one of them to judge them etc should do this.

Slow Motion

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You see that’s exactly the point. People who work 9-5 to feed their kids don’t make the papers or the news.

If Romas are working 9-5 to feed their kids then why aren't they posting on boards like the rest of us hard working members of society?

Blackpitts

I think i can give you a better point of view of the real situation as I'm from Naples.
The sparkle that caused all these riots was an attempt of kidnapping a 6month yo baby by one gipsy girl. Fortunately she got caught by the parents of the baby just before she left the house. It's not the first time that gipsies are stealing babies and put them on the streets in order to get more money when they beg for it. it's an absolute shame!
Anyway the people setting fire to gipsies' caravans or throwing molotov at them are (in most cases) belonging to the local mafia (called Camorra) which has the complete dominion on the territory and doesn't want gipsies as they are out of their control.
I wish the italian police was so "effective" also with the mafia guys, but this is not going to happen. (I suggest to read "Gomorrah" to have an insight view of what i'm talking about, it's a bestseller in many countries now)
I'm not against the Roma, I just want all the criminal people outside from my country, i don't care if they come from romania or wherever else in the world. In Italy at the moment 38% of people in prison are foreigners, it's a shocking percentage.

Dudess

Would I be correct in assuming Berlusconi's government is pretty scary?

Sam Vimes

dodgyme wrote: »

Now to those in the debate that claim you cant generalise well good luck to you since that is the only way to make sense of the world. You cannot go and meet ever single Roma so you have to generealise, and by generalising you will form an opinion like I did. The human brain is conditioned to generalise and learn from its mistakes.

yes it is. that's why racism is so common. i tend to hate roma too. that's why i have to remind myself that the human tendency to generalise is wrong when it comes to judging groups of people

dodgyme wrote: »

Perhaps the person who says you have to meet every one of them to judge them etc should do this.

well i'm not the one making a sweeping generalisation about them so i don't think i should. the burden of proof is on the people who are saying that the majority of them are a certain way

FruitLover

I don't think it's fair to say 100% of Roma gypsies are human trash.











However, 100% of the Roma gypsies that I've had the misfortune to deal with are human trash.

Maximilian

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You see that’s exactly the point. People who work 9-5 to feed their kids don’t make the papers or the news.

And those people have precisely what to do with anything concerning this topic? Is anyone suggesting that such people (I assume you mean Roma) be deported? I only ask because I know I'm not.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You only have an assumption that it’s an accurate one. You can say that it’s the majority and not all of them are like that etc but the effect is the same as if you said it was 100%.unless you have named exceptions you are tarring them all with the same brush.

You are a hypocrite. You seemingly have only the reverse assumption, with even less evidence and more sanctimony.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Why pick on romas? Why even mention romas if all you have a problem with is thieves?

Its an argument that applies to all such foreign nationals. As regards Romas though, they are a readily identifiable group of people, the overwhelming majority of which are nothing but a problem. Why shouldn't they be singled out & singled out as a group for that matter.

What reason do you have for suggesting that these people - the ones who quite obviously do nothing for society, beg, cause a disproportionate amount of crime and steal the round, grassy parts of our transportation system - should stay? I'd love to hear it.

Sam Vimes

Slow Motion wrote: »

If Romas are working 9-5 to feed their kids then why aren't they posting on boards like the rest of us hard working members of society?

you've hit the nail on the head there. the romas that do work are so incredibly diligent they don't takes any boards breaks :eek:

togster

Dudess wrote: »

I must admit I don't fully understand the above remark. However I'm gonna assume it's a dig at those who object to the anti social practices endemic within considerable pockets of Roma immigrant society. If so, what utter crap. And quite insulting actually. Again, this is a perfect example of mindless bigotry coming from the left - and I'm left-wing and regularly accused of being "PC" etc. Read the posts properly.

Well in fairness, there has been alot of "crap" thrown at the "bleeding hearts" here too.

Susannahmia

DesF wrote: »

They aren't a different race.

Race is a social construstion, it does not exist only for the meanings we give it.

marco murphy

For once I'm not afraid to generalise. Shower of hurs.

Susannahmia

daisy123 wrote: »

Are they Roma or Romanians?

They are roma, completly seperate from romanians, my cousin was adopted from romania and you wouldnt believe the amount of discrimination he has experienced since the Romas came and were wrongly associated by the Irish with Romanians in general. I really wish people would stop calling them Romanians!:mad:

justsomebloke

as I thought SEPT 23 1989's quotes where actually quite appropriate but have all been deleted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdtfH2D8j9g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFmJQY6hO10

Doctor DooM

Maximilian wrote: »

And those people have precisely what to do with anything concerning this topic? Is anyone suggesting that such people (I assume you mean Roma) be deported? I only ask because I know I'm not.

Its an argument that applies to all such foreign nationals. As regards Romas though, they are a readily identifiable group of people, the overwhelming majority of which are nothing but a problem. Why shouldn't they be singled out & singled out as a group for that matter.

What reason do you have for suggesting that these people - the ones who quite obviously do nothing for society, beg, cause a disproportionate amount of crime and steal the round, grassy parts of our transportation system - should stay? I'd love to hear it.

I think you're a little confused.

Sam is saying good Roma do exist, just by definition you don't hear about them. This is in response to the "all Roma" generalisations floating around here.

He's already said that the dodgy ones should go- but it should be treated on a one to one basis, not by ethnic group.

togster

SDooM wrote: »

He's already said that the dodgy ones should go- but it should be treated on a one to one basis, not by ethnic group.

So far the most sensible thing said on this thread.

Dennis the Stone

Could everyone stop using the term 'bleeding heart'? I suffer from this rare medical condition and spend most of my life in extreme agony.

Sam Vimes

Maximilian wrote: »

And those people have precisely what to do with anything concerning this topic? Is anyone suggesting that such people (I assume you mean Roma) be deported? I only ask because I know I'm not.

If you are suggesting that foreign national criminals be deported, why mention roma at all? Why not just talk about foreign national criminals? Why is it necessary to mention one specific group of people, tarring them all with the criminal brush with no evidence

Maximilian wrote: »

You are a hypocrite. You seemingly have only the reverse assumption, with even less evidence and more sanctimony.

I’m not suggesting the opposite. That would imply that I believe that roma are less likely to commit crimes than other nationalities. I don’t believe that. I don’t have any evidence either way. I just believe it’s wrong to say that one particular group of people are criminals because that unfairly judges good people

Maximilian wrote: »

Its an argument that applies to all such foreign nationals. As regards Romas though, they are a readily identifiable group of people, the overwhelming majority of which are nothing but a problem. Why shouldn't they be singled out & singled out as a group for that matter.

Because that’s discrimination. Criminals should be judged individually and their nationality should not be an issue

Maximilian wrote: »

What reason do you have for suggesting that these people - the ones who quite obviously do nothing for society, beg, cause a disproportionate amount of crime and steal the round, grassy parts of our transportation system - should stay? I'd love to hear it.

If you had read my posts you would have seen that I said over and over that foreign national criminals should be deported. I hate criminals but to judge an entire group of people to be criminals is wrong

There should be a policy to deal with foreign criminals, not a policy to deal with romas or even roma criminals. If you’re right in saying that most romas are criminals, then the problem can be solved by a non-racist law

dodgyme

Sam Vimes wrote: »

the human tendency to generalise is wrong when it comes to judging groups of people

Look mate, everybody knows what you mean, your not some genius or god like figure for second guessing a sweeping generalisation you might make. But somethings are as obvious as the nose on your face and denying that is plain stupid. By definition a 'group' are defined by certain customs/characteristics/genetics etc, which makes it a group whether its the pioneers or the roma. Sweeping generalisations are different to informed generalisation i.e. making sense of the world around you. One is based on experience and knowledge, the other on ignorance. If I decided today not to generalise on anything I would be fairly Fecked ...no?

Sam Vimes wrote: »

well i'm not the one making a sweeping generalisation about them so i don't think i should.

you are making sweeping generalisations that all the people who disagree with you , are somehow stupid.

WooPeeA

FuzzyLogic wrote: »

The roma gypsies have no work ethic, they simply don't. want. to. work.
I know this is a generalisation, but I've never seen a roma gypsy working at anything. I've seen them selling fake gold rings on the street, begging at ATMs, robbing bikes from a house, robbing plants from inside a window, begging al lover the place, pretending they were blind and deaf, using their children as begging aids, and more.

No, it's not generalization. They are not working. And they don't want to work no matter are they from Romania, Germany or Asia. In their culture working or integrating with others is humiliation in their eyes.

Phaetonman

Tago Mago wrote: »

Could everyone stop using the term 'bleeding heart'? I suffer from this rare medical condition and spend most of my life in extreme agony.

A genuinely funny post on boards. I love it.

People are bring out the race card here but we're not talking about a different race but a different species.

If a human tried to breed with a gypsy the resulting the result would be a sterile creature not unlike a mule.

Degsy

Slow Motion wrote: »

If Romas are working 9-5 to feed their kids then why aren't they posting on boards like the rest of us hard working members of society?

Because the fact is that they're not working.Roma by their very nature,culture,upbringing DONT work.How could a roma kid,given its upbringing decide to enter the education system or jobs market?It's be like a story from dickens.

Sam Vimes

dodgyme wrote: »

Look mate, everybody knows what you mean, your not some genius or god like figure for second guessing a sweeping generalisation you might make. But somethings are as obvious as the nose on your face and denying that is plain stupid. By definition a 'group' are defined by certain customs/characteristics/genetics etc, which makes it a group whether its the pioneers or the roma. Sweeping generalisations are different to informed generalisation i.e. making sense of the world around you. One is based on experience and knowledge, the other on ignorance. If I decided today not to generalise on anything I would be fairly Fecked ...no?

there are generalisations that work. for example, if i get hit by a car, i will most likely die. it doesn't matter if it's a ford or a honda or a toyata. a generalisation can be made there.

but when dealing with people, generalisations are always unfair. there are always exceptions to the generalisation that get treated badly anyway. id did it myself a few times. i was working in a phone shop and people who looked like roma gypsies came in and i made the assumption that they were trying to scam me out of a cheap phone on a contract and was wary of them. often i turned out to be right. but often i turned out to be wrong.

dodgyme wrote: »

you are making sweeping generalisations that all the people who disagree with you , are somehow stupid.

firstly, i'm not saying anything about the intelligence or lack thereof of the people who disagree with me.

secondly, there is a difference between saying "the majority of romas are criminals" and "the people who disagree with me are wrong". if people say that they disagree with me, then i can say they are wrong without generalising. i may be right and i may be wrong. but i am not generalising

however, if i made the assumption that your whole family disagreed with me because you do and said they're also wrong, that would be generalising

lost marbles

just a quick question
does anyone here on boards work with or employ a roma gypsie ???

Doctor DooM

Tago Mago wrote: »

Could everyone stop using the term 'bleeding heart'? I suffer from this rare medical condition and spend most of my life in extreme agony.

Now THAT is funny.

dodgyme wrote: »

Look mate, everybody knows what you mean, your not some genius or god like figure for second guessing a sweeping generalisation you might make. But somethings are as obvious as the nose on your face and denying that is plain stupid. By definition a 'group' are defined by certain customs/characteristics/genetics etc, which makes it a group whether its the pioneers or the roma. Sweeping generalisations are different to informed generalisation i.e. making sense of the world around you. One is based on experience and knowledge, the other on ignorance. If I decided today not to generalise on anything I would be fairly Fecked ...no?




you are making sweeping generalisations that all the people who disagree with you , are somehow stupid.

No you wouldn't be fecked, you would be abiding by the laws of our society. And TBH, if anything is making you look stupid, it is not Sams debating skills.

Degsy wrote: »

Because the fact is that they're not working.Roma by their very nature,culture,upbringing DONT work.How could a roma kid,given its upbringing decide to enter the education system or jobs market?It's be like a story from dickens.

Ok, well heres the point- it doesn't matter where they come from- once again- the dodgy ones should go- but it should be treated on a one to one basis, not by ethnic group.

There, we're all happy.

Degsy

Sam Vimes wrote: »

there are generalisations that work. for example, if i get hit by a car, i will most likely die. it doesn't matter if it's a ford or a honda or a toyata. a generalisation can be made there.

but when dealing with people, generalisations are always unfair. there are always exceptions to the generalisation that get treated badly anyway. id di it myself a few times. i was working in a phone shop and people who looked like roma gypsies came in and i made the assumption that they were trying to scam me out of a cheap phone on a contract and was wary of them. often i turned out to be right. but often i turned out to be wrong.



firstly, i'm not saying anything about the intelligence or lack thereof of the people who disagree with me.

secondly, there is a difference between saying "the majority of romas are criminals" and "the people who disagree with me are wrong". if people say that they disagree with me, then i can say they are wrong without generalising. i may be right and i may be wrong. but i am not generalising

however, if i made the assumption that your whole family disagreed with me and said they're also wrong, that would be generalising

So people generalise?Big deal get over it.Its up to the mythical minority of good,decent romas to prove the generalisers wrong and not the other way round.

Degsy

SDooM wrote: »

Ok, well heres the point- it doesn't matter where they come from- again-When it comes to criminal activity ethnicity should not come into it, it should be dealt on a 1 to 1 basis.

I agree.I also beleive that in the case of foreign criminals,they should be fecked out of the country as soon as they've been convicted.

Dudess

Phaetonman wrote: »

People are bring out the race card here but we're not talking about a different race but a different species.

If a human tried to breed with a gypsy the resulting the result would be a sterile creature not unlike a mule.

Banned.

Bendihorse

''The problem with racism in this country is the foreigners''

Sam Vimes

Degsy wrote: »

So people generalise?Big deal get over it.Its up to the mythical minority of good,decent romas to prove the generalisers wrong and not the other way round.

No, it’s really really not. That’s why we have anti-racism laws in civilised societies. What you’re talking about is a case of guilty until proven innocent

if your dad was a criminal, would you be ok with going to jail because you couldn't prove you WEREN'T involved in his criminal activities?

lost marbles

i can hear the key turning in that lock as i type