Italy tackles Roma Gypsies.

dodgyme

SDooM wrote: »

No you wouldn't be fecked, you would be abiding by the laws of our society. .

Oh I cant remember that you werent allowed generalise. Its a law of our society now is it?. Does it carry a manditory sentance?

Maximilian

Sam Vimes wrote: »

If you are suggesting that foreign national criminals be deported, why mention roma at all? Why not just talk about foreign national criminals? Why is it necessary to mention one specific group of people, tarring them all with the criminal brush with no evidence

I’m not suggesting the opposite. That would imply that I believe that roma are less likely to commit crimes than other nationalities. I don’t believe that. I don’t have any evidence either way. I just believe it’s wrong to say that one particular group of people are criminals because that unfairly judges good people

Because Roma are the topic at hand. Actually my point was that they don't contribute to society and should be kicked out. The other issues such as a propensity towards criminal behavior are more side issues, although relevant.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Because that’s discrimination. Criminals should be judged individually and their nationality should not be an issue

It has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. It is about a group of people who happen to be readily identifiable as Roma and who, as a group, behave in a fashion I and many others think is unacceptable.

Am I saying kick every single one out? No. I'm saying kick out all the ones who do nothing but beg & steal, that is to say the one who have no jobs, nothing to contribute, nothing of value to offer society at all.

That very same argument can be made against another of other homgenous groups too no doubt but that's not what this thread is about.

Doctor DooM

dodgyme wrote: »

Oh I cant remember that you werent allowed generalise. Its a law of our society now is it?. Does it carry a manditory sentance?

If you were to, for, example, not give someone a job based on generalising from their race or sex, yes, you would possibly be facing legal action.

Maximilian

SDooM wrote: »

I think you're a little confused.

Sam is saying good Roma do exist, just by definition you don't hear about them. This is in response to the "all Roma" generalisations floating around here.

He's already said that the dodgy ones should go- but it should be treated on a one to one basis, not by ethnic group.

Sure, fine by me & prettymuch everyone else I'm sure. Treat them all as individuals. Its only fair. Who suggested otherwise? That way you would ensure that you don't throw out people who merit being let live here.

2-ShortDa5foot5

In fairness, thay always have a rose to sell me when I'm p*ssed at the wknd in town with da girlfriend! And u can haggle with da f*ckers too!

dodgyme

Sam Vimes wrote: »

there are generalisations that work. for example, if i get hit by a car, i will most likely die. it doesn't matter if it's a ford or a honda or a toyata. a generalisation can be made there.

hah really bad example.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

but when dealing with people, generalisations are always unfair. .

that is a generalisation and a dangerous one at that.

Johnny works on a jewellery shop, johnny shows a few 10k rings to a group of roma customers. He is afraid to generalise and say 'they are roma' even though ... eerr they are roma, they dress like roma and oh act like roma, but he probably shouldnt call them roma, since that is racist or is it, he doesnt know?. While Johnny is thinking about his soul, right and wrong and 'the internal though police' the roma replace one of the 10k rings with a dude and leg it. Johnny gets the sack for not treating the roma customer slightly different to anyone else. Johnny thinks this is terrible and gets another job in the jewellery next store and the exact same thing happens again. Johnny must not form a generalisation though that the roma in general are more likely to get him sacked then anyone else. Johnny is not doing aswell as his friends, but Johnny will not generalise no????

Doctor DooM

dodgyme wrote: »

hah really bad example.

that is a generalisation and a dangerous one at that.

Johnny works on a jewellery shop, johnny shows a few 10k rings to a group of roma customers. He is afraid to generalise and say 'they are roma' even though ... eerr they are roma, they dress like roma and oh act like roma, but he probably shouldnt call them roma, since that is racist or is it, he doesnt know?. While Johnny is thinking about his soul, right and wrong and 'the internal though police' the roma replace one of the 10k rings with a dude and leg it. Johnny gets the sack for not treating the roma customer slightly different to anyone else. Johnny thinks this is terrible and gets another job in the jewellery next store and the exact same thing happens again. Johnny must not form a generalisation though that the roma in general are more likely to get him sacked then anyone else. Johnny is not doing aswell as his friends, but Johnny will not generalise no????

Have you read the thread? Both Sam Vimes and I have pointed out we work in retail and dealt with Roma shoplifters. They're shoplifters like everyone else- and here's the thing- the worst shop lifters are the ones who look like perfectly average Irish people, because you can't see them coming.

Your analogy is fail.

dodgyme

SDooM wrote: »

If you were to, for, example, not give someone a job based on generalising from their race or sex, yes, you would possibly be facing legal action.

If you were to, for, example, not give someone a job based on their race or sex, yes, you would possibly be facing legal action.

(see what I did there?)

Doctor DooM

Maximilian wrote: »

Sure, fine by me & prettymuch everyone else I'm sure. Treat them all as individuals. Its only fair. Who suggested otherwise? That way you would ensure that you don't throw out people who merit being let live here.

Dodgyme seems to think they should all be lumped together at the moment: Earlier Degsy made a comment which tbf he retracted.

Maximilian

SDooM wrote: »

Have you read the thread? Both Sam Vimes and I have pointed out we work in retail and dealt with Roma shoplifters. They're shoplifters like everyone else- and here's the thing- the worst shop lifters are the ones who look like perfectly average Irish people, because you can't see them coming.

Your analogy is fail.

Out of interest, did you deal with many Roma shoplifters?

dodgyme

SDooM wrote: »

- the worst shop lifters are the ones who look like perfectly average Irish people, because you can't see them coming.
.

How dare you generalise?

Did you not know you are breaking the LAW.:D

Doctor DooM

dodgyme wrote: »

If you were to, for, example, not give someone a job based on their race or sex, yes, you would possibly be facing legal action.

(see what I did there?)

Yes, you omitted a word which doesn't change the point at all. It's still generalising.

Zulu

Funny this should come up. I'm just back from Brussels where there appears to be very little tollerance to beggers. Shop keepers and cops run them. And I mean - roaring at them to move on.

It got me thinking.

Perhaps countries should just have a provisional visa for say the first 5 years. In that 5 years if you commit a crime - you get deported back to your country of orgin. ...or something similar.
Is that such a bad idea?

dodgyme

SDooM wrote: »

because you can't see them coming.

maybe you cant. Perhaps a bit more generalising and you might?

Doctor DooM

dodgyme wrote: »

How dare you generalise?

Did you not know you are breaking the LAW.:D

lol, thats not generalising, that merely stating I don't like it when I can't detect I am being robbed.

You need to divorce what goes on in your head and the rules by which society are governed dude. It's ok to generalise in one but not the other.

Doctor DooM

Maximilian wrote: »

Out of interest, did you deal with many Roma shoplifters?

I dealt with a good few. You got to know their faces ( just like all the other ones, and FWIW the vast majority were Irish druggies, and they were the dangerous ones.)

Sam Vimes

Maximilian wrote: »

Because Roma are the topic at hand. Actually my point was that they don't contribute to society and should be kicked out. The other issues such as a propensity towards criminal behavior are more side issues, although relevant.

who's they? romas? 95% of romas? 80% of romas? or foreign criminals, some of whom happen to be roma?

Maximilian wrote: »

It has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. It is about a group of people who happen to be readily identifiable as Roma and who, as a group, behave in a fashion I and many others think is unacceptable.

you're saying that someone is inclined to behave a certain way because of an ethnic group that they belong to. that is discrimination. the ones that you've had experience with have appeared to behave in a certain way. that doesn't mean that all of them behave that way and that doesn't mean you should should make any assumptions about someone because of the ethnic group they belong to.

Maximilian wrote: »

Am I saying kick every single one out? No. I'm saying kick out all the ones who do nothing but beg & steal, that is to say the one who have no jobs, nothing to contribute, nothing of value to offer society at all.

i agree. kick out all foreign nationals who have nothing to contribute. note how neither of us generalised there by mentioning a specific group and suggesting that they are more likely to be criminals because they belong to that group

dodgyme

SDooM wrote: »

Yes, you omitted a word which doesn't change the point at all. It's still generalising.

Dont think you really get it.

Doctor DooM

dodgyme wrote: »

maybe you cant. Perhaps a bit more generalising and you might?

The strawman arguing is getting old.

You think we should be allowed to judge by "social group" or whatever way you avoid saying race: I'm merely pointing out that I believe, from my experience, you're wrong.

Degsy

Sam Vimes wrote: »

No, it’s really really not. That’s why we have anti-racism laws in civilised societies. What you’re talking about is a case of guilty until proven innocent

if your dad was a criminal, would you be ok with going to jail because you couldn't prove you WEREN'T involved in his criminal activities?

Look you're fightinga losing baqttle here based on semantics.If you put your mind to it you could easily make a case that "ALL" roma in this country are engaged in anti social activity if not actual crime.You could analyse each and every one of them and find out what they do for a living.You could ask Gardai,the courts service,the dept of Justice,The minster for justice,The Romanian ambassador,the Media,The Roma themselves..."How do these peopel support themselves?By fair means or foul".
You know whatthe results would be so stop trying to play devil's advocate.

Sam Vimes

dodgyme wrote: »

Johnny works on a jewellery shop, johnny shows a few 10k rings to a group of roma customers. He is afraid to generalise and say 'they are roma' even though ... eerr they are roma, they dress like roma and oh act like roma, but he probably shouldnt call them roma, since that is racist or is it, he doesnt know?. While Johnny is thinking about his soul, right and wrong and 'the internal though police' the roma replace one of the 10k rings with a dude and leg it. Johnny gets the sack for not treating the roma customer slightly different to anyone else. Johnny thinks this is terrible and gets another job in the jewellery next store and the exact same thing happens again. Johnny must not form a generalisation though that the roma in general are more likely to get him sacked then anyone else. Johnny is not doing aswell as his friends, but Johnny will not generalise no????

jonny should be careful when showing anyone he doesn't know jewellery. he shouldn't make the assumption that it's ok to let his guard down because they're irish


bear in mind that myself and SDooM both worked in phone shops and as such dealt with theiving roma scum trying to scam us with fake passports and other people's names on a daily basis. i think it's safe to say we had far more bad experiences with romas than the majority of people here and we're still saying it's wrong to make a generalisation about them, because it is

Sam Vimes

Degsy wrote: »

Look you're fightinga losing baqttle here based on semantics.If you put your mind to it you could easily make a case that "ALL" roma in this country are engaged in anti social activity if not actual crime.You could analyse each and every one of them and find out what they do for a living.You could ask Gardai,the courts service,the dept of Justice,The minster for justice,The Romanian ambassador,the Media,The Roma themselves..."How do these peopel support themselves?By fair means or foul".
You know whatthe results would be so stop trying to play devil's advocate.

i don't know what the results would be and neither do you. if i were to make the assmption i would come to the same conclusion as yourself but that assumption would be made on anecdotal evidence and as such, a useless assumption

Doctor DooM

Degsy wrote: »

Look you're fightinga losing baqttle here based on semantics.If you put your mind to it you could easily make a case that "ALL" roma in this country are engaged in anti social activity if not actual crime.You could analyse each and every one of them and find out what they do for a living.You could ask Gardai,the courts service,the dept of Justice,The minster for justice,The Romanian ambassador,the Media,The Roma themselves..."How do these peopel support themselves?By fair means or foul".
You know whatthe results would be so stop trying to play devil's advocate.

Yeah but for the good of society you can't just be fecking an entire ethnic minority out if you RECKON they're all trouble. Society would collapse in on itself as we decide who is "good" and who is "evil." So you got to do it fairly. Thats Sams point I think.

pickarooney

What would you do with the Romas? Deporting them is not an answer, it's just moving them somewhere you don't have to look at them. Say you're the king of Europe and it's your problem to solve without recourse to simply exporting them to another continent. Do you, when a Roma has been caught committing a crime:

a) murder them

b) imprison them

c) educate them and give them a job

d) some really clever answer?

paperclip2

I dunno folks from what I've read here it strikes me that the basic problem is cultural rather than any issue about race.

Any other ethnic group that engendered the same negative perceptions would be equally villified. Therefore its not really about the Romas ethnic heritage but more about aspects of their culture that are seen as being less than compatible with Irish society. Its not about disliking them for who they are but more for what they do (or are percieved as doing).

If I was to start a thread lambasting Polish or Latvian immigrants then I'm pretty sure I would be called to account very quickly. And part of the reason would be because these groups are at some level seen as sharing similar cultural values as the rest of us, i.e. they work hard, they like to socialise in a similar way and are more open to integration. They have a better hegemonic (sp!) fit.

Its also interesting to note how the negative empahsis on the Roma culture in the thread is largely focused on issues of work and property, i.e that they are percieved as being spongers, that they are thieves, that they don't work. To me this seems to resonate with the way the celtic tiger thinking has infiltrated our collective value system. Personally I think that the way women and girls are sometimes viewed by Roma society is more objectionable than their sometimes casual attitude to my property.

Have a good day y'all!

Degsy

SDooM wrote: »

Yeah but for the good of society you can't just be fecking an entire ethnic minority out if you RECKON they're all trouble. Society would collapse in on itself as we decide who is "good" and who is "evil." So you got to do it fairly. Thats Sams point I think.

Well in the case of the elected representatives in Italy,they seem to have done thier homework on who is and isnt trouble.I seem to remeber the justice minister last year made a similar decision on the camp at the m50 roundabout.So really it doesnt matter what I think,as long as the government think the same and are acting accordingly.

Degsy

pickarooney wrote: »

What would you do with the Romas? Deporting them is not an answer, it's just moving them somewhere you don't have to look at them. Say you're the king of Europe and it's your problem to solve without recourse to simply exporting them to another continent. Do you, when a Roma has been caught committing a crime:

a) murder them

b) imprison them

c) educate them and give them a job

d) some really clever answer?

Your post isnt as clever as you think it is.Deporting them DOES work.It removes them from the country and ergo prevents them from commiting crime here.And imprisonment is the harshest penalty available under irish law.They cant be executed or murdered.Compulsary education of foreieng criminals is a ridiculous idea suggested by somebody who doesnt know what they're talking about.

Naked Lepper

ireland is an EXTREMELY racist country, and even the so called non-racists that i know seem to love to go on about how they hate roma gypsies, even tho theyre not racsit apparently.

Doctor DooM

Degsy wrote: »

Your post isnt as clever as you think it is.Deporting them DOES work.It removes them from the country and ergo prevents them from commiting crime here.And imprisonment is the harshest penalty available under irish law.They cant be executed or murdered.Compulsary education of foreieng criminals is a ridiculous idea suggested by somebody who doesnt know what they're talking about.

Agreed. Irelands a good, stable country to live in. The simple price to stay here should be to get a job and not commit crimes. It's not a big ask.

Sam Vimes

Degsy wrote: »

Well in the case of the elected representatives in Italy,they seem to have done thier homework on who is and isnt trouble.I seem to remeber the justice minister last year made a similar decision on the camp at the m50 roundabout.So really it doesnt matter what I think,as long as the government think the same and are acting accordingly.

the irish government are not thinking like you. The ones on the roundabout were judged on an individual basis. They were all breaking the law and were therefore removed.

but as they were driving to the airport, if they picked up people who'd never met the offenders but were also roma and threw them in the van too, they'd be thinking more like you

Degsy

Sam Vimes wrote: »

the irish government are not thinking like you. The ones on the roundabout were judged on an individual basis. They were all breaking the law and were therefore removed.

but as they were driving to the airport, if they picked up people who'd never met the offenders but were also roma and threw them in the van too, they'd be thinking more like you

So they'd be Roma but would somehow "never met the offenders"?Is that likely?In the real world however...

Sam Vimes

Degsy wrote: »

So they'd be Roma but would somehow "never met the offenders"?Is that likely?In the real world however...

well firstly, yes i'd say it's highly unlikely that every roma in the country knows every other roma personally

and secondly, you kind of missed the point. those specific roma commited a crime and were removed. but removing someone who had not been proven to commit a crime because he is a member of the same ethnic group is discrimination and is not practised by the irish government

Doctor DooM

Degsy wrote: »

So they'd be Roma but would somehow "never met the offenders"?Is that likely?In the real world however...

Thats dodging the point.

Degsy

Naked Lepper wrote: »

ireland is an EXTREMELY racist country

No its isnt.There's been far fewer problems with immigration here than anybody could've forseen.Sure you get the scumbags on the boardwalk in town shouting abuse at people but can we really change that particular group of people?When yu use a word like racism,be aware its a two-edged sword..a shop in Drogheda had a sign in the window saying "No Whites",I've heard toilet attendents saying "all you europeans are the same" and so on.

Degsy

SDooM wrote: »

Thats dodging the point.

No its isnt.What do the Romas come here to do?Do they come to work because i'd love to hear about it.

Degsy

Sam Vimes wrote: »

and secondly, you kind of missed the point. those specific roma commited a crime and were removed. but removing someone who had not been proven to commit a crime because he is a member of the same ethnic group is discrimination and is not practised by the irish government

No its not practised by the irish government but they are arresting those roma that commit crimes.I wonder how many Roma out of the population we have at the moment,HAVNT been arrested for something...

Sam Vimes

Degsy wrote: »

No its isnt.What do the Romas come here to do?Do they come to work because i'd love to hear about it.

yes it is dodging the point. i said that the government judged them on an individual basis contrary to what you were suggesting.

you responded with a statement about how many of them know each other

Dyr

In all fairness there are people who are roma/romany across europe that are settled and lived in the same area for generations and arent human parasites. Its just the migranting ones that we get are the parasitic variant.

Doctor DooM

Degsy wrote: »

No its isnt.What do the Romas come here to do? Do they come to work because i'd love to hear about it.

It's the circle of life here today...

Even if exactly 1 Roma has ever come here to work, you can't judge them all like that, because it's the slippery spiral. Furthermore, there may be many here, but you never see them because they are just getting on with life.

Sam Vimes

Degsy wrote: »

No its not practised by the irish government but they are arresting those roma that commit crimes.

no, they are arresting PEOPLE that commit crimes. the fact that they are roma is irrelevant.

Degsy wrote: »

I wonder how many Roma out of the population we have at the moment,HAVNT been arrested for something...

well i don't know. how about you go and find out instead of assuming they all have

Degsy

SDooM wrote: »

It's the circle of life here today...

Even if exactly 1 Roma has ever come here to work, you can't judge them all like that, because it's the slippery spiral. Furthermore, there may be many here, but you never see them because they are just getting on with life.

You're living in dreamland if you beleive that.Check with the dept of justice as to how many work permits were issued to romanian nationals.300?Something like that.Now,check how many romanian nationals DIDNT apply..2000,something like that?The 300 that did apply NOT ONE was a Roma gypsy.NOT ONE.

Maximilian

Sam Vimes wrote: »

who's they? romas? 95% of romas? 80% of romas? or foreign criminals, some of whom happen to be roma?

I'm getting tired of arguing about the irrelevant minutiae. I'm saying the majority of them are useless beggers and some are worse - kick them out. Not because they are Roma but because they are a bunch of people who contribute nothing to society (and happen to be Roma). Do it fairly of course, on an individual basis. Yes, don't stop there, lets include other foreigners too (even though this thread wasn't about them). The generalisation is, as I said earlier, effectively a short-hand to aid discussion of the issue, not the issue itself.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

you're saying that someone is inclined to behave a certain way because of an ethnic group that they belong to. etc etc

No, I am saying that a bunch of people I think should be deported happen to make up a large proportion of a certain ethnic group. Seriously, how many times do I need to explain this has nothing whatsoever to do with race and everything to do with behavior.

I remember now, why I don't bother getting involved in serious AH discussions. Honestly, you get off the fence on an issue and people start arguing about the bloody fence instead.

0ubliette

SDooM wrote: »

TBH, it is basically.

I've never met a nice German, I have met two nasty ones. Should I assume they're all gits?

And how many germans have you met who flew to Ireland, camped on a roundabout on the M50 and DEMANDED the government give them free housing? None?

Much like other posters here i have never seen a roma gypsy working (be it in the service industry, or an office, or ANY form of gainful, legitimate employment)
I have however seen roaming gangs of them begging, have seen a family of THIRTEEN gypsies living in ONE 3 bed house across the road from me and witnessed them attempting to rob an old woman who lives on my road, and heard reports of them trying the 'knock ont he door and ask for a glass of water then force your way into an old persons home and rob as much **** as you can before the cops come' trick.
They are now begging on almost any street you care to name in the city centre, and ive soptted them preparing for a hard days begging near the luas tracks, stashing their bags and food in a bush before going out with the ol paper cup and and a sad expression int he middle of the road.
Call me a racist all you want if it makes you feel better, but these people contribute NOTHING and take ANYTHING they can from our society and as such should not be allowed to stay here anymore.

Sam Vimes

Degsy wrote: »

You're living in dreamland if you beleive that.Check with the dept of justice as to how many work permits were issued to romanian nationals.300?Something like that.Now,check how many romanian nationals DIDNT apply..2000,something like that?The 300 that did apply NOT ONE was a Roma gypsy.NOT ONE.

Even if that is the case, that doesn’t give you the right to brand them all as criminals.

Answer me this, would you have a problem with this law:

“All foreign nationals who commit a crime in Ireland will be deported.”

I’m happy because we’re not discriminating against one group of people and you’re happy because if you’re right there won’t be a single roma gypsy left in the country.

Why must we be racist? If you’re right it should be completely unnecessary

javaboy

Maximilian wrote: »

I remember now, why I don't bother getting involved in serious AH discussions. Honestly, you get off the fence on an issue and people start arguing about the bloody fence instead.

BikiQuotes project methinks.

Sam Vimes

Maximilian wrote: »

I'm getting tired of arguing about the irrelevant minutiae. I'm saying the majority of them are useless beggers and some are worse - kick them out. Not because they are Roma but because they are a bunch of people who contribute nothing to society (and happen to be Roma).

take a look at stromfront.org. that's what they all say. it's what all racist people say. nobody hates, for example, black people simply because they're a different colour. they hate them because of how they believe these people behave because they've met some bad ones so they've assumed they're all like that

if someone meets a bad white person, they say "that person is bad". if someone meets a bad black person they say "black people are bad". it's an unfortunate glitch in human reasoning

Maximilian wrote: »

Do it fairly of course, on an individual basis. Yes, don't stop there, lets include other foreigners too (even though this thread wasn't about them). The generalisation is, as I said earlier, effectively a short-hand to aid discussion of the issue, not the issue itself.

then the word roma should never be mentioned at all. the fact that they're being deported has nothing to do with being a roma. it has nothing to do with any group they happen to be a member of. it's because they, as an individual, committed a crime

there should be no policy on roma criminals. there should be a policy on criminals. anything else is discrimination

Doctor DooM

Degsy wrote: »

You're living in dreamland if you beleive that.Check with the dept of justice as to how many work permits were issued to romanian nationals.300?Something like that.Now,check how many romanian nationals DIDNT apply..2000,something like that?The 300 that did apply NOT ONE was a Roma gypsy.NOT ONE.

And that matters how?

Do you honestly think there's not one good Roma out there somewhere in the world?

Even if all Roma in Ireland are scumbags, it doesn't change the fact they should be treated as individuals. I was merely pointing out WHY that should be so. I actually agree it should be dealt with, I'm just saying you cant deal with foreign nationals that way. Where's the problem here?


"then the word roma should never be mentioned at all. the fact that they're being deported has nothing to do with being a roma. it has nothing to do with any group they happen to be a member of. it's because they, as an individual, committed a crime."

Sam Vimes

0ubliette wrote: »

And how many germans have you met who flew to Ireland, camped on a roundabout on the M50 and DEMANDED the government give them free housing? None?

and how many romas? 50? does that make it ok to make a judgement about all romas on the planet?

dodgyme

Sam Vimes wrote: »

bear in mind that myself and SDooM both worked in phone shops and as such dealt with theiving roma scum trying to scam us with fake passports and other people's names on a daily basis. i think it's safe to say we had far more bad experiences with romas than the majority of people here and we're still saying it's wrong to make a generalisation about them, because it is

you already have made the generalisations, you just dont want to admit it.

Sam Vimes

dodgyme wrote: »

you already have made the generalisations, you just dont want to admit it.

which generalisations?