Italy tackles Roma Gypsies.

Doctor DooM

dodgyme wrote: »

you already have made the generalisations, you just dont want to admit it.

Where? All I see is you picking at little pieces in our arguments instead of addressing them, tbh.

Maximilian

Sam Vimes wrote: »

take a look at stromfront.org. that's what they all say. it's what all racist people say. nobody hates, for example, black people simply because they're a different colour. they hate them because of how they believe these people behave because they've met some bad ones so they've assumed they're all like that

Well Sam, that's the point where I've nothing more to say to you. There really is no point. You just seem determined to blindly brand everyone as a racist. For the record, racists are ignorant or retarded or both. Their reasons (when they attempt to give them) are irrational and the facts they use to back up their point of view are fabricated or out of context.

In this case, what people (including myself) really object to is not a race or ethnicity but a culture. A culture that promotes nothing other than begging and taking whatever it can from society and giving nothing back.

How about the next time you imply someone is a racist, you take the time to actually consider what they have said, rather than what you think they have said. While you're at it, take the time to read the definition of racial discrimination posted earlier.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

then the word roma should never be mentioned at all. the fact that they're being deported has nothing to do with being a roma. it has nothing to do with any group they happen to be a member of. it's because they, as an individual, committed a crime

/facepalm

tororosso

Yes it does, because the example you have used is the norm rather than the exception unfortunately.....I was walking by a Polish food shop in Smithfield a few months ago and an entire family were involved in some kind of altercation with two women at the door to the shop. The woman who worked in the shop was strugglling with two of the gypsy girls and they broke free with whatever they were stealing and the whole family 7 or so went off. I went into the shop were the two women were and asked what was going on; both women were eastern european (hope that isn't too much of a generalisation but I couldn't be sure whether they were both Polish) and the shop worker was in tears. Apparently they went in and were shopllifting. When they were confronted about it they brazenly attempted to leave the shop with all the stuff (while still taking stuff on front of the lady). The problem is that shops know what to expect based on our human nature of "generalising" but its not PC to say anything. Racist? I think the above example is a good highlight of positive and negative elements coming under the guise of immigration....

Other examples as well in case people arent happy that any generalisations are unfounded....

Sam Vimes wrote: »

and how many romas? 50? does that make it ok to make a judgement about all romas on the planet?

dodgyme

SDooM wrote: »

Furthermore, there may be many here, but you never see them because they are just getting on with life.

Seriously you are talking pure mule now.

Jigsaw

The Roma people must be crushed!!!

Seriously though, all I can see is that they are lazy begging thieving b@stards. Why won't they get a job and take pride in themselves? I do not advocate physical violence but I would not be sorry if they were hunted by the government.

dodgyme

Sam Vimes wrote: »

and how many romas? 50? does that make it ok to make a judgement about all romas on the planet?

no, but it sure does help form an opinion:eek:

dodgyme

are Sdoom and sam vines the same person. ?

Sam Vimes

Maximilian wrote: »

Well Sam, that's the point where I've nothing more to say to you. There really is no point. You just seem determined to blindly brand everyone as a racist.

that's actually the first time i used the word racist on the thread.

Maximilian wrote: »

For the record, racists are ignorant or retarded or both. Their reasons (when they attempt to give them) are irrational and the facts they use to back up their point of view are fabricated or out of context.

whereas you have no facts, only a general feeling that a lot of them are criminals

Maximilian wrote: »

In this case, what people (including myself) really object to is not a race or ethnicity but a culture. A culture that promotes nothing other than begging and taking whatever it can from society and giving nothing back.

hating a culture of thievery is not wrong but assuming that everyone who belongs to a certain group prescribes to that culture is wrong.

saying that all members of the KKK are racist is perfectly legitimate because each member made an individual choice to join a racist group. however, people are born into the roma ethnic group. you cannot assume that they all think a certain way


you and me both hate criminals. it's completely unnecessary to mention what ethnic group a criminal may or may not come from

Sam Vimes

dodgyme wrote: »

no, but it sure does help form an opinion:eek:

a completely baseless opinion

Sam Vimes

dodgyme wrote: »

are Sdoom and sam vines the same person. ?

no, we're just people who don't like to see people judged because of the actions of others

Doctor DooM

dodgyme wrote: »

Seriously you are talking pure mule now.

Says the guy ignoring my arguments.

dodgyme wrote: »

are Sdoom and sam vines the same person. ?

Yes, yes we are. *Waits for Sam to get banned *

dodgyme

Sam Vimes wrote: »

a completely baseless opinion

50 roma arrive and live on a roundabout looking for handouts. How TF is that baseless. ? Its based on fact.

dodgyme

SDooM wrote: »

Says the guy ignoring my arguments.

oh ya, I could learn alot from you. :rolleyes:

dodgyme

SDooM wrote: »

Says the guy ignoring my arguments.

I have made my points, you have choosen to ignore them. Let it go

Executive Steve

DesF wrote: »

If our government don't do something about the problem, I can see the rise of a proper right-wing party in Ireland in the next few years.

yes! if our government won't act like fascist nazi scum we'll have to make sure we get some proper fascist nazi scum to be our government!

:pac:

Sam Vimes

dodgyme wrote: »

50 roma arrive and live on a roundabout looking for handouts. How TF is that baseless. ? Its based on fact.

he said that it's ok to form an opinion on every roma based on the action of 50. it's not. in terms of an entire population of people, a sample size of 50 is negligible

there are more than 50 irish people in prison. does that mean irish people are criminals?

there are more men in prison than there are romas on the planet. men must be criminals so?

Adam

Bleeding Hearts, unite under the commen (read: lost) cause! :oldrolleyes:

I agree entirely that these gits should be fúcked out on their ear. I've never met one that wasn't waving a child/big issue/fake ring in my face, and they all get greated with a very hearty fúck off!!! from me. I tried a polite "No thanks" for a long time. It didn't work.

If I ever meet a hard working, law abiding example, I still wouldn't change my tune. The example can stay, the rest can twat off!

FYI, they've moved on from begging at ATMs, they're now stealing at them. Wait for you to approach and enter your card and pin, stick a big issue under your nose and hit the highest amount, grab the cash and run. My friend got stung for 200 euro this way.

To all you nay sayers, argue this: Do you not find that the vast majority of these people are soceital leeches?

Executive Steve

DesF wrote: »

Bleeding hearts, answer this.

Should Ireland allow every Tom, Dick and Harry from all corners of the globe into the country, and then allow them to live in the filth and frankly animal conditions that existed on the M50 Roundabout?

sure you'd be even less impressed if we put them in the shelbourne instead of the M50 roundabout, i'd imagine...

monkeyfudge

ooh... I'm coming in late to this one.... Well done to SDooM and Sam Vimes on their voices of reason.

What I find surprising is that people seem to also have a low opinion of the Roma who do seem to try and work for their money as opposed to resorting to crime and begging.

Do people really have a problem with the buskers and the flower sellers as well?

javaboy

Sam Vimes wrote: »

you and me both hate criminals. it's completely unnecessary to mention what ethnic group a criminal may or may not come from

Have you seen Superbad? Specifically the part where the two cops are trying to get a description from the store employee of who just robber the place.



...I don't see much of a problem in using generalisations where they have a foundation in fact as long as they are recognised as generalisations and not put forward as absolute rules.

e.g. I think it's ok for a shopkeeper to be more alert to shoplifting while a Scandinavian person is in his shop if his past experience has shown Scandinavians to be more likely to shoplift.

monkeyfudge

Mirror wrote: »

FYI, they've moved on from begging at ATMs, they're now stealing at them. Wait for you to approach and enter your card and pin, stick a big issue under your nose and hit the highest amount, grab the cash and run. My friend got stung for 200 euro this way.

oh no... not this again..

Doctor DooM

dodgyme wrote: »

I have made my points, you have choosen to ignore them. Let it go

I argued against them and then you went to strawman arguments. Society cannot judge individuals by ethnicity, thats all I am saying here

javaboy

monkeyfudge wrote: »

ooh... I'm coming in late to this one.... Well done to SDooM and Sam Vimes on their voices of reason.

What I find surprising is that people seem to also have a low opinion of the Roma who do seem to try and work for their money as opposed to resorting to crime and begging.

Do people really have a problem with the buskers and the flower sellers as well?

If they're paying tax on the money they make then no I don't.

tororosso

But where are they getting the flowers?

Adam

javaboy wrote: »

If they're paying tax on the money they make then no I don't.

+1

Monkeyfudge, was there a problem with my post? My point behind it was that there are examples of simple, outright crime, they are not all simply beggars.

I'm not saying that they are all criminals either, but we all know that was not an isolated event.

monkeyfudge

tororosso wrote: »

But where are they getting the flowers?

That's the mystery isn't it... They must be grown somewhere with an ancient gypsy recipe.

Caoimhín

tororosso wrote: »

But where are they getting the flowers?

They grow them on the roundabouts.

monkeyfudge

Mirror wrote: »

+1

Monkeyfudge, was there a problem with my post? My point behind it was that there are examples of simple, outright crime, they are not all simply beggars.

I'm not saying that they are all criminals either, but we all know that was not an isolated event.

There just seems to be a lot of issues with the ATM theft thing. What happened to your friends ATM card? That has to be removed before cash is dispensed... it's also accompanied by loud beeping. I don't think I've ever gotten a full explanation for how this particular crime is pulled off.

Adam

monkeyfudge wrote: »

There just seems to be a lot of issues with the ATM theft thing. What happened to your friends ATM card? That has to be removed before cash is dispensed... it's also accompanied by loud beeping. I don't think I've ever gotten a full explanation for how this particular crime is pulled off.

I actually don't know, now that you mention it, but I was up the street when it happened, we spoke to the guards minutes afterwards as it took place on O'Connell St. and they said it was the fifth one that night.

Dinter

Couple of points that I found interesting but you can all draw your own conclusions.

The first language that various signs in the Four Courts were translated into from English and Irish was Romanian. This was because of increased need for them.

The first flyers that were printed up addressing rights a prisoner could expect were in Romanian.

An anecdote from a source I trust but dont have pictures I'm afraid! Back in around 2003 there was a Roma being interviewed in Donnybrook Garda Station. A translator was called and after the lad got out on police bail the translator wept at how horrified he was that the Irish public might begin to confuse Romas and Romanians.

Romanians are not at all similar to Romas. They do not want to be identified with them.

Personally I don't like anyone coming up begging from me when I already pay a large proportion of my salary to ensure noone goes without necessities. Couldn't care less where they come from.

Can anyone tell me the logic involved in decriminalising begging? Surely it's just an admission by the Government that the Welfare State is unable to work.

tororosso

"magic gypsy recipe"

Rb

I really,really,really,really,really don't see how anyone can defend Roma Gypsies. The only reason I can think of is purely to go against the grain, only for the sake of it.

Susannahmia

Dinter wrote: »

An anecdote from a source I trust but dont have pictures I'm afraid! Back in around 2003 there was a Roma being interviewed in Donnybrook Garda Station. A translator was called and after the lad got out on police bail the translator wept at how horrified he was that the Irish public might begin to confuse Romas and Romanians.

Romanians are not at all similar to Romas. They do not want to be identified with them.

.

Sadly that is a point which is very hard to get into some peoples heads.:(

Sam Vimes

rb_ie wrote: »

I really,really,really,really,really don't see how anyone can defend Roma Gypsies. The only reason I can think of is purely to go against the grain, only for the sake of it.

i don't defend criminals. show me proof that every roma gypsy in the country has a conviction and all future roma children will definitely get a conviction and that all ones who will come here in the future will get one and i'll stop defending them

Doctor DooM

rb_ie wrote: »

I really,really,really,really,really don't see how anyone can defend Roma Gypsies. The only reason I can think of is purely to go against the grain, only for the sake of it.

Besides, you know, defending their human rights.

I don't defend anyone who willingly commits a serious crime. Out of the country. thats fine and dandy. But it has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the person, but their actions and their actions alone.

tbh

Degsy wrote: »

Because the fact is that they're not working.Roma by their very nature,culture,upbringing DONT work.How could a roma kid,given its upbringing decide to enter the education system or jobs market?It's be like a story from dickens.

now here's an interesting point. So from what I can gather, the general feeling here is that Roma = Freeloading scum. (stay with me mods, I'm going somewhere with this).

Another point that's frequently made is how unfair it is on their children, not being able to go to school, having to beg, not learning right from wrong, etc etc.

So, can someone tell me, at what point should I stop feeling sorry for the child, and start hating them? 12? 14? 18?

I was messing with one of those roma sellers last week,the ones with the flowers, when a few wee bags of coke fell out of her pocket.We were going to say something to the police but a hurly roma man came over and picked up the bags.So we kept our mouths shut.

Doctor DooM

tbh wrote: »

now here's an interesting point. So from what I can gather, the general feeling here is that Roma = Freeloading scum. (stay with me mods, I'm going somewhere with this).

Another point that's frequently made is how unfair it is on their children, not being able to go to school, having to beg, not learning right from wrong, etc etc.

So, can someone tell me, at what point should I stop feeling sorry for the child, and start hating them? 12? 14? 18?

14, thats when they begin being able to shoot lasers from their eyes.

tbh

rb_ie wrote: »

I really,really,really,really,really don't see how anyone can defend Roma Gypsies. The only reason I can think of is purely to go against the grain, only for the sake of it.

wow. So basically you think that anyone who doesn't think the same as you is doing it out of badness. that's pretty arrogant, don't you think?

Degsy

monkeyfudge wrote: »

There just seems to be a lot of issues with the ATM theft thing. What happened to your friends ATM card? That has to be removed before cash is dispensed... it's also accompanied by loud beeping. I don't think I've ever gotten a full explanation for how this particular crime is pulled off.

I reckon you're trolling.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200708/cmhansrd/cm080206/halltext/80206h0001.htm
http://www.topix.com/world/romania/2007/10/romanian-gangs-behind-85-of-atm-theft-in-uk
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1110/atm.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/three-jailed-over-atm-scam-that-tapped-into-90-accounts-172562.html
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhojojauauau/

there's enough evidence as to how it works,no?

Degsy

SDooM wrote: »

14, thats when they begin being able to shoot lasers from their eyes.

Whats that contributing to your "argument"?

KBarry

Deleted User wrote: »

I was messing with one of those roma sellers last week,the ones with the flowers, when a few wee bags of coke fell out of her pocket.We were going to say something to the police but a hurly roma man came over and picked up the bags.So we kept our mouths shut.

That was more likely the magic gypsy recipe they grow the flowers with.

Doctor DooM

Degsy wrote: »

Whats that contributing to your "argument"?

I think it's pretty clear that's an attempt at humour. A crap one, obviously.

dodgyme

:rolleyes:

Sam Vimes wrote: »

he said that it's ok to form an opinion on every roma based on the action of 50. it's not. in terms of an entire population of people, a sample size of 50 is negligible. ?

Look you can expand the context however you want. 50 roma come into a country and live on a roundabout, but ofcourse that has nothing to do with them being roma except that they ARE roma. no germans just roma.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

there are more than 50 irish people in prison. does that mean irish people are criminals?

good point, you must be right. great skill there. :rolleyes:

Sam Vimes wrote: »

there are more men in prison than there are romas on the planet. men must be criminals so?

you can keep going with the elastic argument but it broke way back in this argument

Doctor DooM

dodgyme wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Look you can expand the context however you want. 50 roma come into a country and live on a roundabout, but ofcourse that has nothing to do with them being roma except that they ARE roma. no germans just roma.

good point, you must be right. great skill there. :rolleyes:
you can keep going with the elastic argument but it broke way back in this argument

Rolling your eyes does not an argument win. Can I ask if you honestly think that Roma should not be treated on a one on one basis, as you seem to be ignoring that?

Adam

SDooM wrote: »

Rolling your eyes does not an argument win. Can I ask if you honestly think that Roma should not be treated on a one on one basis, as you seem to be ignoring that?

You're right, rolling your eyes doesn't win the argument.

Let's put it this way:

Are the majority of Irish people contributing positively to the Irish economy, and soceity in general?

Are the majority of Roma people contributing positively to the Irish economy, and soceity in general?

dodgyme

SDooM wrote: »

Rolling your eyes does not an argument win. Can I ask if you honestly think that Roma should not be treated on a one on one basis, as you seem to be ignoring that?

Are you Sams older brother or something. Can he not defend himself on a one on one basis.?

I have made my points. I would be more suspicious of someone who is a roma then say a romanian or an englishman,... why because they have a culture of sponging and begging.

Degsy

SDooM wrote: »

Rolling your eyes does not an argument win. Can I ask if you honestly think that Roma should not be treated on a one on one basis, as you seem to be ignoring that?

You've lost the argument.Really you have,you're just reinventing the wheel.

Adam

dodgyme wrote: »

Are you Sams older brother or something. Can he not defend himself on a one on one basis.?

I have made my points. I would be more suspicious of someone who is a roma then say a romanian or an englishman,... why because they have a culture of sponging and begging.

Actually this is incorrect.

I can't remember where I heard this, but it was explained to me the the Roma's that beg in their home country are treated like dogs and aren't tolerated at all, and come to this country for the simple reason that we put up with them. So their culture is seemingly more intelligent than ours when it comes to tolerating this bullshít.

So we're like the dumping pot for another country because of idiotic tolerance of a people that are clearly not doing us any good.

Holsten

We should follow suit as soon as possible.