Tito Ortiz

Vince135792003

With UFC 84 coming up, aside from the main event, the biggest story leading into it has many parallels to pro-wrestling.

Tito Ortiz is fighting the last fight agreed on his contract and it is expected to be his last fight ever in the UFC. Relations with Dana White are tremendously bad with arguments over money being rampant for the guts of 12 months now. They are so bad in fact that the president of the UFC, Dana White openly said that he wants Lyoto Machida (Tito's opponent) to knock him out.

So how does everyone think the fight will go? What will happen if Tito loses? What will happen if Tito wins? Will they let him talk?

So many questions, let the discussion begin.


Here's a good article that explains the whole siutuation better than I ever could:

Ortiz vs. White is UFC’s hottest feud

By Dave Meltzer, Yahoo! Sports May 16, 4:20 pm EDT



Whether he wins or loses May 24 in Las Vegas against Lyoto Machida, it certainly appears Tito Ortiz will end his 11-year Ultimate Fighting Championship career. But there will be no televised celebration of his accomplishments when the fight is over.

UFC president Dana White will want it to end as quietly as possible, with Ortiz as an afterthought, and the crowning of the undefeated Machida as a new top star.

After years of a very public war between the promoter and one of his top stars, the UFC 84 fight essentially determines who gets in the last word.

“He’s one of the most dishonest human beings I’ve ever met,” White said. “I put up with him when he was a good fighter. He’s not anymore. He’s done. I’m no longer in the Tito Ortiz business.”

“Dana White, when he was my manager, he was the one fighting with the owners at the time to get me more money,” Ortiz said. “I’m just doing the things he was doing for me.”

Ortiz has had more fights (21) in the octagon than any man in history. He was the longest-reigning champion in company history, a three-and-a-half year run as light heavyweight champion from 2000-03. And the Huntington Beach, Calif., native headlined the company’s two most successful pay-per-view events in matches with Ken Shamrock (770,000 buys) and Chuck Liddell (1.05 million), and the company’s highest rated television special (3.1), in a third match with Shamrock.

The war of words between the two is nothing new, as they’ve had issues since 2003, when UFC wanted to put together the first Ortiz vs. Liddell match and Ortiz claimed he didn’t want to take the fight because the two were close friends and had an agreement not to fight each other (Liddell claimed there was no such agreement).

But the problems between White and Ortiz escalated in 2007 and have grown even worse in recent weeks as the story’s apparent final act gets set to unfold.

Ortiz’s contract expires with this fight. Things got so bad that Lorenzo Fertitta, the company’s co-owner, and not White, was involved in trying to negotiate a new deal. But they couldn’t come to terms.

“They told me I wasn’t worth as much as I was in the past,” Ortiz said.

Technically, there is a 30-day period after the contract expires where he can only negotiate with UFC, and then a period where UFC has the right to match any outside offer.

“I’m looking for something where I can be a promoter (as part of a contract with a new company),” said Ortiz, noting that would guarantee something the UFC wouldn’t match and he’d be a free agent.

“There’s not going to be any bidding war,” White said. “Gary Shaw (promoter at Elite XC) should offer him $30 a fight, because we’re not going to match it.”

While money issues are a big part of the problems between the two, Ortiz conceded that the final six-fight deal Fertitta offered him was probably worth more than he would be able to get elsewhere. But he turned it down, wanting to be away from White.

“I think it’s time to start a new chapter in my life,” Ortiz said.

“This guy went on Howard Stern and said he was getting $200,000 a fight,” White said. “That was such a lie. Tito made $5.8 million in 2006. He only fought once in 2007. He made $710,000 for that fight (with Rashad Evans) and that was the third match from the top (on the card). He goes around saying we made $231 million last year. He’s a moron. This guy talks about what a businessman he is, and he was on ‘The Apprentice’ and he doesn’t know the difference between revenue and profit.”

Ortiz has been unhappy with White’s public comments, in which the UFC president called both Ortiz and girlfriend Jenna Jameson, who had done some negotiating with UFC for him, “morons.”

“He lied when he said he took me back (in 2006) because my wife called him up and begged him,” Ortiz said. “I was negotiating with the WFA (the World Fighting Alliance, a rival organization that fell apart after one show; UFC purchased the remnants) and they brought me back on the terms that I wanted to keep me from going there.”

“Kristen (Ortiz’s wife at the time) called me,” White said. “She was all upset and asked me to take him back. If he thinks it was about the WFA, look at what happened to the WFA. Rampage (Quinton Jackson) still bitches about them to this day. Ask B.J. Penn. Ask any of the guys who have left and have come back. The grass isn’t always greener.”

The 2006 contract also had a clause that the two would do a three-round boxing match. While the idea sounds ridiculous on the surface, White was a former amateur boxer and early in Ortiz’s career, when he was still primarily a wrestler, they trained boxing together and at the time White was the better boxer.

A special on Spike TV that aired in April 2007 was portrayed as if Ortiz backed out of the match, which did no favors for his reputation or drawing power.

“The special was all about Dana White, flying around in Lear jets,” Ortiz said. “We agreed to do a 50/50 split on revenues, but then he would never sign a bout agreement. I did all my medicals, just like a regular fight. Then they made it look like he was standing there at the weigh-ins and I didn’t show up.”

White said the boxing match was supposed to be private, until Ortiz talked about it with a reporter and suddenly interest escalated, but whatever money was to go to charity.

From a business standpoint, Ortiz in 2006 was pure gold. But in 2008, it’s very much a question. Ortiz hasn’t had a win against a true top opponent in years.

Even Ortiz’s 15-5-1 record is interpreted completely different by both.

“In the last eight years, the only people who have beaten me are Randy Couture and Chuck Liddell, two of the best fighters in the world,” Ortiz said.

“Look at his record,” White said. “When was the last time he beat a legitimate top contender? Forrest Griffin was right out of ‘The Ultimate Fighter’ and a lot of people think Griffin won that fight. You have to go back to Vitor Belfort (in early 2005). He’s not ranked in anyone’s top 10.”

Ortiz said the difference is for the first time in five years, his back problems, which hampered his formerly explosive takedown shots, is healed.

“I feel 100 percent,” he said. “I was 60 to 70 percent when I fought Rashad (Evans) and Chuck. I didn’t have to get injections in my back two weeks before the fight like with Evans. I’m wrestling the way I used to wrestle for the first time in years.”

And even White concedes Ortiz can help them and come across as a top star on the outside.

“He’ll probably dominate, because he won’t be fighting the same level of competition,” he said. “Kimbo Slice? Three months ago he was fighting in your backyard.”

Ortiz feels he’s got several potential big fights outside of the UFC.

“There’s a rematch with Randy Couture, a rematch with Frank Shamrock, and maybe (heavyweights) Kimbo Slice or Fedor Emelianenko,” he said. “Yes, they are (except Shamrock) heavyweights, but we can fight at a catch weight. Babalu (Renato Sobral) is another one. I have three or four years left.”

It’s no secret why UFC booked Machida, 12-0, a highly respected but uncharismatic relative unknown to the casual UFC fans, as Ortiz’s last opponent. The expectation is Machida would get a win over a huge name opponent, and hopefully become a star in the process, and become someone who can draw if challenging for the marquee light heavyweight title.

The match has more intrigue within the MMA world than any fight in a long time, because Machida is seen as White’s surrogate fighter, and the question becomes, if Ortiz wins, what will he do, and what will he say, in his final interview. Or will White allow him a final interview?

“He did not want to fight Machida,” White said. “He ranted and raved to (UFC matchmaker) Joe Silva about it. “I can’t do anything about the matches once they’re in the cage. Everyone knows my feelings for Chuck Liddell, but when he’s in the cage, there’s nothing I can do and either he wins or he loses. But this time, I want to see Machida win. But if Tito knocks Machida out, I’m still out of the Tito Ortiz business.”


Dave Meltzer covers mixed martial arts for Yahoo! Sports. Meltzer, who has published the pro wrestling trade industry publication the Wrestling Observer Newsletter since 1982, began covering MMA with UFC 1 in 1993. He is a graduate of San Jose State University, and has written for the Oakland Tribune, Los Angeles Times, and The National. Send Dave a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.

ShawnRaven

(cue the "Martial Arts forum" trolls)

Tito Ortiz is an awesome fighter and exciting to watch nine times out of ten. He and Dana's working relationship has become somewhat strained over the years, probably because Ortiz is known for being a total dick outside of the Octagon. That said, people pay money to see him get his, so as a result, he'll draw cash. If he'll draw cash, then Dana, if he has any sense, which he does, will most likely work out some short term contract until someone beats lumps out of him.

Actually once Lesnar learns how to defend properly, Lesnar v Ortiz would be worth checking out.

VR!

Kid Nothing

I honestly think the whole thing is a stroke of genius from the 2 of them.....granted they have their problems but they have obviously worked together on building this up as a really heated feud, almost wrestling-style if you will. I've a funny feeling the show is gonna end up drawing a decent number for them and a nice payoff as well.

Vince135792003

I don't think it's worked really. It's not like they are talking about this on any of their hype shows at least from internet previews I've seen. It's very much an internet thing that hardcores no about. And hardcore fans will be buying the show anyway.

Fozzy

Tito used to be really good. But he hasn't looked great in a good while. He says that his back is healed up and his conditioning is as good as ever, but I wouldn't be so sure

I think Machida will outstrike him. I think Machida is underrated by most people. For the wrestling tie-in, he's Antonio Inoki's protege and he made his MMA debut on a New Japan show

I don't think they'll interview Tito afterwards. He'll probably end up in EXC, I wouldn't be surprised if he has a t-shirt saying that

ShawnRaven

I'm still a Tito Believer.
"If you fight Tito Ortiz, you WILL Lose!"

VR!

Vince135792003

Fozzy wrote: »

T
I don't think they'll interview Tito afterwards.

Me neither. For my entertainment I hope they do though.

Fozzy

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Me neither. For my entertainment I hope they do though.

I hope he chases Joe Rogan around the ring

I'm not sure if it's in that article above or some other one I read, but Tito said that after the fight he'll point to the Fertittas and say thanks and then point to Dana and tell him to **** off. He also said that he'll have a t-shirt indicating what his next move will be or something like that

Vince135792003

Fozzy wrote: »

I hope he chases Joe Rogan around the ring

I'm not sure if it's in that article above or some other one I read, but Tito said that after the fight he'll point to the Fertittas and say thanks and then point to Dana and tell him to **** off. He also said that he'll have a t-shirt indicating what his next move will be or something like that

I want some sort of a Dana/Tito confrontation! Cant see it happening though. From UFC's perspective, I guess their objective will be to make it as low key as possible.

They could do a hell of an angle if they re-signed him. In each preview show Dana could go on saying "I've hand picked _________ to finally get Ortiz". I guess Tito would have to win a few times to make it wok though. Plus, Ortiz isn't exactly at his best playing the underdog babyface. Could still work though I think!

Vince135792003

Very interesting, passionate interview by Tito on the whole thing. Worth watching:

http://www.sherdog.com/videos/videos.asp?v_id=1585

Machismo Fan

Fozzy wrote: »

I don't think they'll interview Tito afterwards. He'll probably end up in EXC, I wouldn't be surprised if he has a t-shirt saying that

Or he could go back to his referee job in TNA.;)

Dont be surprised seeing him sign a new contract. He does get on with Dana White but he doesnt see him every day either. He needs UFC as much as UFC needs him .
Its a win win really , unless he decides to take a break.

ShawnRaven

I'd have to agree here, for as long as Dana can make money off Tito, he'll work with him, regardless on if he gets on well with him or not.

VR!

Vince135792003

Deleted User wrote: »

He needs UFC as much as UFC needs him .

I don't think UFC needs him. Don't get me wrong, Tito will always be a draw to an extent but because of his prolonged absence, I think he's been passed by to a degree.

UFC no longer needs him like they did when he was at his peak. They've moved on.

I don't get how you can say the 2 get on either. I agree with you on the part about agreeing a contract. That wouldn't be a total shock to me.

ShawnRaven

Vince135792003 wrote: »

I don't get how you can say the 2 get on either. I agree with you on the part about agreeing a contract. That wouldn't be a total shock to me.

I think he might have been trying to say that for the sake of business, they would get along as both could make the cash from it, and as he said, it'd be a win/win situation.

VR!

Vince135792003

validreasoning! wrote: »

I think he might have been trying to say that for the sake of business, they would get along as both could make the cash from it, and as he said, it'd be a win/win situation.

Make cash for this fight or future fights?

Like I said, it wouldn't shock me if Tito beats Machida that UFC will offer Tito a new contract. That's openly not their preferred outcome for the match though. They've booked Tito to lose and to have his stock as low as possible.

Sorry, i meant to say he doesnt get on with Dana. But that is actually from a business point of view. Out of business its a different story.

ShawnRaven

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Make cash for this fight or future fights?

Both! As you said, it won't shock you if he re-signs.

Like I said, it wouldn't shock me if Tito beats Machida that UFC will offer Tito a new contract. That's openly not their preferred outcome for the match though. They've booked Tito to lose and to have his stock as low as possible.

In the sense that you think they placed Machida against Ortiz, with Machida being the stronger opponent that would be most likely to destroy Ortiz?

Sorry, i'm just not used to the term "booked" used in MMA discussion
VR!

Vince135792003

validreasoning! wrote: »

In the sense that you think they placed Machida against Ortiz, with Machida being the stronger opponent that would be most likely to destroy Ortiz?

I believe Dana White when he said it. Last paragraph of the article I linked:

“He did not want to fight Machida,” White said. “He ranted and raved to (UFC matchmaker) Joe Silva about it. “I can’t do anything about the matches once they’re in the cage. Everyone knows my feelings for Chuck Liddell, but when he’s in the cage, there’s nothing I can do and either he wins or he loses. But this time, I want to see Machida win. But if Tito knocks Machida out, I’m still out of the Tito Ortiz business.”

Like I said I wouldn't be shocked if Tito resigned. I'd be surprised though. I think Machida is beating him on Saturday and that will end his run with the UFC. I hope not though. Guys with Tito's charisma don't come along all the time and I'd like to see him do well.

ShawnRaven

The thing about MMA is it's unpredictabilily. Go back to last year, nobody gave Congo a chance against Cro-Cop. Congo won the fight and Cro-Cop's career has yet to recover.

It really is a case of anything can happen. I think Dana has his head screwed on theory wise, in practice. I guess we won't have too much longer to wait.

VR!

Vince135792003

validreasoning! wrote: »

The thing about MMA is it's unpredictabilily.

That's true but normally (and there are exceptions like Silvia and Nogueira in which Silvia was on the last fight of his contract) the UFC book matches where either outcome is positive for them. That's not the case with this match. As a company they want 1 outcome and that's what makes it intriguing.

ShawnRaven

So it's worked, but it's not worked at the same in the sense that Dana would much rather prefer one persion win a specific fight (and in this case, it's obviously Machida).

I know, it's a weird way of viewing it. But nobody ever said Dana wasn't entirely twisted either.

VR!

Vince135792003

validreasoning! wrote: »

. But nobody ever said Dana wasn't entirely twisted either.

Their's a tremendous video of Dana White doing what can only be described as as a phenomenal promo on all his competitors during an interview in Canada from a month ago. He morphs into a scarier version of Vince McMahon half way though it.

I'll look for it and and post it if I can find it.

Fozzy

I want Tito to fight Frank Shamrock again. The buildup would be amazing with those two

Vince135792003

http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/04/18/dana-white-on-ufc-83-syliva-fedor-more-video/


Click the last video and go to the 5 or 6 minute mark. It's tremendous and kind of motivating in a weird way. If I'm the Fertitas I'm glad he's running my business.

ShawnRaven

Oh my god, Minto and myself were discussing this earlier, lol.
Nice to see Dana backed it up, and that was actually the first time i'd seen that.

He is right on the money though, with every word.
VR!

Vince135792003

Fozzy wrote: »

I want Tito to fight Frank Shamrock again. The buildup would be amazing with those two

Me too. I'm a big Frank Shamrock fan. Obviously he hasn't been the most active in fighting top guys but there's few guys I prefer to watch than him.

If I was Frank though, I'm not sure that would be the first fight on my list to make.

Fozzy

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Me too. I'm a big Frank Shamrock fan. Obviously he hasn't been the most active in fighting top guys but there's few guys I prefer to watch than him.

If I was Frank though, I'm not sure that would be the first fight on my list to make.

I think Frank would take him. Although the time is sort of ticking on any potential fight vs Ken, and a Cung Le rematch would be great. I'm not convinced that Tito is at the sort of level that Frank is at. This Machida fight should answer a lot of questions

There's talk of a fight vs Kimbo Slice too, if that's where Tito heads after UFC. I'm not sure if that'd be a smart move, because although I don't think Tito is at the top of the sport anymore, I'm sure his ground game is much better than Kimbos, and it could kill a lot of Kimbo's popularity. Still though, it shows that there is plenty for Tito to do if he doesn't resign with the UFC

Vince135792003

Fozzy wrote: »

I'm sure his ground game is much better than Kimbos, and it could kill a lot of Kimbo's popularity

Well if i was EXC I'd much rather somebody like Tito beat him than a guy like James Thompson.

Vince135792003

From bloodyellow.com, here's what Tito made for his last few fights:

Key stats:

-He is on Randy's payscale which is as follows:
* 100,000 - 175,000 buys - $1 per buy
* 175,000 - 300,000 buys - $1.50 per buy
* 300,000 - 330,000 buys - $2 per buy
* 330,000 - plus buys - $3 per buy

-He made $5,607,500 in 2006 combined.

-$787,000 for the fight with Forrest

-$1,917,500 for the fight with Ken on PPV

-$2,692,500 for the fight with Chuck.

Vince135792003

Weigh in news from Dave Meltzer:

Main card
Wilson Gouveia (205) vs. Goran Reljic (205)
Thiago Silva (205) vs. Antonio Mendes (203)
Tito Ortiz (205) vs. Lyoto Machida (203)
Wanderlei Silva (205) vs. Keith Jardine (205)
B.J. Penn (155) vs. Sean Sherk (155) for lightweight title

Notes: Ortiz got the biggest reaction, more cheers than boos. He was wearing a "Dana is my bitch" T-shirt that got a big reaction. No Dana White at yesterday's press conference, today's Ultimate Fighter media day or at the weigh-ins. Obviously something major is wrong.

The show sold out well in advance and they are doing a closed-circuit telecast at a 5,000-seat ballroom where they held the weigh-ins, which drew 4,500, one of the bigger weigh-in crowds.

Machida was booed, but not heavily. Sherk was booed unmercifully with loud "steroid" catcalls. If those people only knew. Besides Ortiz, the only superstar reactions were to Wanderlei Silva and Penn.

ShawnRaven

Hah gotsta love that shirt though!!
He still has a head you'd just love to punch right in.

VR!

Charlie

As much as I love Tito's gusto, and his T-shirts, it's a bit rich calling the man, who has made tens of millions of dollars off of you getting pummelled for years, his 'bitch'. It's the otherway around tbh.