Aptitude test for medicine announced

an_upstart

http://www.tcd.ie/Communications/news.php?headerID=900&vs_date=2008-5-1

*****

New selection criteria for undergraduate entry to medicine from 2009

The Academic Councils of the four Universities with undergraduate medical schools, NUI Galway, TCD, UCC and UCD together with the RCSI have given their approval for new selection criteria for undergraduate entry to Medicine which adds a new test dimension to the traditional Leaving Certificate entry route. The Minister for Education and Science Batt O’Keefe TD welcomed the introduction of the new arrangements.

The admission test for entry in 2009 will take place on Saturday 14 February in test centres in Cork, Dublin, Galway, the North-West and the South-East at a cost of approximately €95 per candidate. An information brochure outlining the details of the new selection criteria is being sent to all secondary schools during May 2008. Further details are available from any of the University or RCSI admissions offices.

The new proposals represent the implementation of key recommendations of the Fottrell report which was approved by Government in 2006, for the reform of medical education. Under the new arrangements, students will sit a separate admissions test and their results will be combined with their Leaving Certificate Examination to create a new admission route to undergraduate medicine for 2009.

As well as the mandatory subjects, a threshold of 480 points in the same sitting of the Leaving Certificate will be required to be eligible. Leaving Certificate points up to 550 will count as normal and above this level, each band of 5 points will be given 1 point extra only. For example, a student with 555 points will be credited with 551 points, a student with 560 points will be credited with 552 points. The maximum Leaving Certificate point score will translate to 560.

The new admissions test is called HPAT- Ireland (Health Professions Admission Test – Ireland). The test will have a maximum score of 300. The students’ marks will be combined to a total maximum achievable mark of 860.

Commenting, on behalf of the Irish Medical Schools, on the new admission route Professor Bill Powderly, stressed the importance of the design of the new test. “A crucial element of the test is that it measures the student’s ability rather than prepared learning and this avoids a situation whereby scores could be improved through repeated testing and grind courses.”

The HPAT – Ireland test which was chosen through an international tender process will be independently administered by ACER (Australian Council for Educational Research). HPAT- Ireland examines mental ability, reasoning, personal skills and professional attributes.

Following the Fottrell Report (2006) Medical Education in Ireland: A New Direction, Report of the Working Group on Undergraduate Medical Education and Training, the cap on undergraduate medical places for EU students was raised from 305 to 480, spread across the four university medical schools and Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. When both the undergraduate and graduate entry routes come fully on stream the annual intake to medicine for EU students will be 720.

The Universities and RCSI fully support the principles of the reform outlined in the Fottrell Report and the combination of additional places and the new selection criteria for entry is good news for those competing for entry to undergraduate medicine.

Full details are available in the information brochure at: http://www.tcd.ie/Admissions/undergraduate/assets/pdfs/Medical%20entry%20for%202009.pdf

Supplementary information for A-level applicants at http://www.tcd.ie/Admissions/undergraduate/assets/pdfs/Medical%20entry%20for%20A%20Level%20Applicants%202009.pdf

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Happy Valentines!:p:p

ZorbaTehZ

Brochure wrote:

HPAT-Ireland
Format of test:
The HPAT-Ireland test is a 2½ hour paper-based test consisting of three modules or sections:

(i) Logical Reasoning and Problem Solving
(ii) Interpersonal Understanding
(iii) Non-Verbal Reasoning

All questions are in multiple choice format with 4 or 5 possible responses, from which the candidate is asked to choose the most
appropriate response. There is only one correct response. Further details regarding the test, including the approximate number of
questions in each section, can be found at www.hpat-ireland.acer.edu.au from September 2008. Reasonable accommodations will
be made for students with a physical and/or specific learning disability

I'll be waiting to see what the sample papers look like. Also note that you're going to have to pay 95 yoyos for the exam and also that a lot of people are going to have to travel to the test centres.

Is this really going to fix the problem? It's still a points race albeit 'non-academic' qualities being taken into account - the way I see it, 860 is the new 600 and thats about it.

uskidsgo

While I see why some people hate the points method, at least it's fair. I think this might be a really bad idea. I'm doing first year medicine at the moment and to be honest, someone who has to work hard to get 480/490 points doesn't really stand a chance imho, I think the cutoff point if there has to be one should be 550 or thereabouts.

Commenting, on behalf of the Irish Medical Schools, on the new admission route Professor Bill Powderly, stressed the importance of the design of the new test. “A crucial element of the test is that it measures the student’s ability rather than prepared learning and this avoids a situation whereby scores could be improved through repeated testing and grind courses.”

Does anyone believe that? I would be really surprised if courses offering to improve your HPAT test score in exchange for a small fortune don't start springing up by next Christmas.

It's definitely not right that some people who don't have the neccessary interpersonal skills or genuine care and concern for patients to be effective doctors but who are able to memorise numerous essays and knowledge of a vast array of subjects for the leaving take the place of those who dream of being a doctor and would be great at it but fall short in points. However, if the best these students can aspire to is high 400s, low 500s then the likelihood is they won't make it through first and second year and won't make it to the hospitals anyway.
Maybe I'm wrong but I can't see a 480/490 person making it through this course, it's a long, hard slog just to pass first year exams! Anyway, what do people yet to face into the big, bad LC think of this announcement?

PS Just struck me that I might have painted med in a very dreary, boring light. I actually love it (despite the endless hours of study), would really recommend it to anyone if they're goin into it for the right reasons and are willing to do the work!!

PPS Good luck to eeryone reading this who's doing the Leaving this year. It's not that bad....course that's easy for him up in college to say:D:D

ZorbaTehZ

uskidsgo wrote: »

It's definitely not right that some people who don't have the neccessary interpersonal skills or genuine care and concern for patients to be effective doctors

I really don't believe that they're going to be able to measure these kinds of skills properly on a written exam.

uskidsgo wrote: »

However, if the best these students can aspire to is high 400s, low 500s then the likelihood is they won't make it through first and second year and won't make it to the hospitals anyway.
Maybe I'm wrong but I can't see a 480/490 person making it through this course, it's a long, hard slog just to pass first year exams! Anyway, what do people yet to face into the big, bad LC think of this announcement?

Yes, but inevitably in scaling the HPAT scores, it's going to make it just as competitive and intensive/difficult as trying to score in the top 5 percentiles of the LC - I mean the demand is going to at least stay the same and most likely increase (because of the lower points requirement), probably making it even more difficult.

The australian equivalent of this exam is the UMAT (administered by the same group as this exam) and after doing some reading on it, I wouldn't be too hopeful of this being a good alternative.

an_upstart

uskidsgo wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong but I can't see a 480/490 person making it through this course, it's a long, hard slog just to pass first year exams! Anyway, what do people yet to face into the big, bad LC think of this announcement?

I'm actually quite worried about this exam (im doing my lc in 2009):(.. according to the Independent, anybody who miss the points this year could apply next year... but wouldn't that significantly decrease the places for the 2009 candidates?? Hopefully they'll give the majority of places to us and if there are places left, give it to this year's candidates...(fingers crossed!:))

uskidsgo

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

I really don't believe that they're going to be able to measure these kinds of skills properly on a written exam.



Yes, but inevitably in scaling the HPAT scores, it's going to make it just as competitive and intensive/difficult as trying to score in the top 5 percentiles of the LC - I mean the demand is going to at least stay the same and most likely increase (because of the lower points requirement), probably making it even more difficult.

The australian equivalent of this exam is the UMAT (administered by the same group as this exam) and after doing some reading on it, I wouldn't be too hopeful of this being a good alternative.

Ya, I would agree with everything you said there. I've been thinking about this a bit... The leaving cert is actually a really good filter for selecting students who have the aptitude to get through first and second years, after that though, once you get into the hospitals I think those with better, more natural communication skills will start moving to the top of the class (although I'm not speaking from experience about this). The problem is that first and second year are very similar to the leaving cert ie memorising vast amounts of information and being able to reproduce it in an exam situation, so the people who wouldn't achieve very high marks in the leaving would really struggle to get through these years and make it into the hospitals.

carlowboy

uskidsgo wrote: »

While I see why some people hate the points method, at least it's fair. I think this might be a really bad idea. I'm doing first year medicine at the moment and to be honest, someone who has to work hard to get 480/490 points doesn't really stand a chance imho, I think the cutoff point if there has to be one should be 550 or thereabouts.

Does anyone believe that? I would be really surprised if courses offering to improve your HPAT test score in exchange for a small fortune don't start springing up by next Christmas.

It's definitely not right that some people who don't have the neccessary interpersonal skills or genuine care and concern for patients to be effective doctors but who are able to memorise numerous essays and knowledge of a vast array of subjects for the leaving take the place of those who dream of being a doctor and would be great at it but fall short in points. However, if the best these students can aspire to is high 400s, low 500s then the likelihood is they won't make it through first and second year and won't make it to the hospitals anyway.
Maybe I'm wrong but I can't see a 480/490 person making it through this course, it's a long, hard slog just to pass first year exams! Anyway, what do people yet to face into the big, bad LC think of this announcement?

PS Just struck me that I might have painted med in a very dreary, boring light. I actually love it (despite the endless hours of study), would really recommend it to anyone if they're goin into it for the right reasons and are willing to do the work!!

PPS Good luck to eeryone reading this who's doing the Leaving this year. It's not that bad....course that's easy for him up in college to say:D:D

You'd swear medicine was by far the hardest University course there is by the sound of that. Are you in pre-med or actual first year?

Kwekubo

an_upstart wrote: »

I'm actually quite worried about this exam (im doing my lc in 2009):(.. according to the Independent, anybody who miss the points this year could apply next year... but wouldn't that significantly decrease the places for the 2009 candidates?? Hopefully they'll give the majority of places to us and if there are places left, give it to this year's candidates...(fingers crossed!:))

I don't see how it would be any different to other years. Loads of people sitting the LC this year will be repeats who missed out on medicine last year

an_upstart

Kwekubo wrote: »

I don't see how it would be any different to other years. Loads of people sitting the LC this year will be repeats who missed out on medicine last year

Yes, but now they don't have to resit the lc...they can use the points that they already have

uskidsgo

I'm in actual first year. It's not that hard in that most of the stuff you cover isn't that hard to pick up, it's just the sheer amount of stuff to cover that makes it difficult. Like, I'd imagine a lot of other courses (maths or physics or something like that) cover much more complicated concepts than we do but don't cram as much stuff into one year (or maybe that's an incorrect assumption of me). I've also heard that the work load is less in the next few years of medicine but again I may be wrong there. I hope I'm not coming across as describing medicine as boring or awful...I love it and if you know it's what you want to do, go for it!!

EamonnKeane

uskidsgo wrote: »

It's definitely not right that some people who don't have the neccessary interpersonal skills or genuine care and concern for patients to be effective doctors but who are able to memorise numerous essays and knowledge of a vast array of subjects for the leaving take the place of those who dream of being a doctor and would be great at it but fall short in points.

Yeah, because the ability to memorise a vast array of facts is a useless skill for a medical student. Far better that he have a love for all the children of the world.

Piste

Sample HPAT paper:

http://www.hpat.org.uk/media/sampleq/HPAT_SQ_06.pdf



Looks easy enough.

k4-4-life

uskidsgo wrote: »

However, if the best these students can aspire to is high 400s, low 500s then the likelihood is they won't make it through first and second year and won't make it to the hospitals anyway.
Maybe I'm wrong but I can't see a 480/490 person making it through this course, it's a long, hard slog just to pass first year exams!

I'll have you know that most of the foreign students studying medicine over here only require 420 leaving cert points to study the same course that so many talented homegrown students (who are frequently let down by the points system) aspire to do. Also from personal experience, I know that many of these foreign students do not struggle with the course, do infact make it into 2nd and subsequent years and graduate to become competent doctors.

To tar everyone with the one brush and say that those with lower points will struggle is completely foolish. Lets not forget that most consultants operating in the healthcare system did not require the vast amount of points required by today's aspiring doctors. This doesn't make them any less competent than those achieving 600 points in subjects that have no relavence to the healthcare profession. Lets face it; the leaving cert is a points race at the end of the day and in no way gives any indication on the type of doctors these high flying students will produce.

Im fully convinced that this new system will not only benefit those trying to gain entry into medicine but will also benefit the healthcare system, producing doctors that are not only talented, but suited to the profession.

Anthony16

Hello,im currently a 5th yr student but will begin my leaving cert course this september. I would be confident of obtaining around 550 points (with hard work of course), in the leaving cert,and wish to study medicine. Let's be sure on 1 thing: yes the board of education and most other ppl believe the new aptitude tests will bring about better doctors BUT does any1 know that these tests are highly controversial across the world?? They may nt necessarily distinguish good from bad potential doctors as they contain sections which some ppl believe are irrelevant wen it comes to studying medicine.

JSK 252

What doesnt make sense to me is why this medical entrance exam only applies to medicine? What about Veterinary, Pharmacy, Physiotherapy?

Anthony16

i think that is due to the fact that there is such a high demand for entry to medicine,more so than any other course

Piste

Anthony16 wrote: »

Hello,im currently a 5th yr student but will begin my leaving cert course this september. I would be confident of obtaining around 550 points (with hard work of course), in the leaving cert,and wish to study medicine. Let's be sure on 1 thing: yes the board of education and most other ppl believe the new aptitude tests will bring about better doctors BUT does any1 know that these tests are highly controversial across the world?? They may nt necessarily distinguish good from bad potential doctors as they contain sections which some ppl believe are irrelevant wen it comes to studying medicine.

The aptitude test isn't all about evaluating emotional responses and human interatction, it shows ability to compile information, rework information and expres yourself, there is also a section that tests emotional responses. I posted a link to a sample HPAT paper you might like to take a look at if you want to see what the test will be like.

JSK 252 wrote: »

What doesnt make sense to me is why this medical entrance exam only applies to medicine? What about Veterinary, Pharmacy, Physiotherapy?

I think there's talk of seeing how this works out for medicine and then possibly introducing a similar scheme for other courses.

Resi12

I'd love to be a Surgeon and go into Medicine, but there's no way in hell i could get points like that. Plus I can't stand Blood

Kwekubo

Piste wrote: »

The aptitude test isn't all about evaluating emotional responses and human interatction, it shows ability to compile information, rework information and expres yourself, there is also a section that tests emotional responses. I posted a link to a sample HPAT paper you might like to take a look at if you want to see what the test will be like.

Note that the paper you linked is a sample for the University of Ulster's HPAT, not the HPAT for CAO courses. No detailed information or sample papers have been released yet with regard to the CAO HPAT exam; it may be significantly different.

Anthony16

I think that is the ulster hpat that u linked. Anyway,they say its not an academic exam so worrying about it too much would be useless. got to get the points 1st.Honestly though, aptitude tests are highly controversial and a lot of colleges do not agree with them for various reasons.

kellykl

The idea that someone would need to have achieved over 550 points to pass first year Medicine is ridiculous!
Say a student recieves A1's in higher level biology, chemistry and maths but is useless at languages so barely scrapes by in English, Irish and French/German/Spanish.
Okay, its unlikely but its possible.
That student wouldn't achieve over 550 but would be perfectly capable of first year medicine!
The very fact that the medical schools agreed to this means that they think it must be possible for someone with 480 to pass.
Also, remember that points are only dictated by demand. So, in the old system, if by some strange fluke hardly anyone applied for medicine, then the points would have plumetted. I.e. - it's not a prerequisit!
Okay, rant over. Can you tell that I didn't get the points?

Incidently, even though I've completed a degree since, I will be applying for entry in 2009 based upon my points from when I sat the leaving cert in 2004. It's a funny old world!

Piste

kellykl wrote: »

I will be applying for entry in 2009 based upon my points from when I sat the leaving cert in 2004. It's a funny old world!

I don't think you can do that, I think you have to combine the points from the leaving cert with the points from the aptitude test and both have to be sat in the same year.

4Xcut

uskidsgo wrote: »

While I see why some people hate the points method, at least it's fair. I think this might be a really bad idea. I'm doing first year medicine at the moment and to be honest, someone who has to work hard to get 480/490 points doesn't really stand a chance imho, I think the cutoff point if there has to be one should be 550 or thereabouts.

Does anyone believe that? I would be really surprised if courses offering to improve your HPAT test score in exchange for a small fortune don't start springing up by next Christmas.

It's definitely not right that some people who don't have the neccessary interpersonal skills or genuine care and concern for patients to be effective doctors but who are able to memorise numerous essays and knowledge of a vast array of subjects for the leaving take the place of those who dream of being a doctor and would be great at it but fall short in points. However, if the best these students can aspire to is high 400s, low 500s then the likelihood is they won't make it through first and second year and won't make it to the hospitals anyway.
Maybe I'm wrong but I can't see a 480/490 person making it through this course, it's a long, hard slog just to pass first year exams! Anyway, what do people yet to face into the big, bad LC think of this announcement?

PS Just struck me that I might have painted med in a very dreary, boring light. I actually love it (despite the endless hours of study), would really recommend it to anyone if they're goin into it for the right reasons and are willing to do the work!!

PPS Good luck to eeryone reading this who's doing the Leaving this year. It's not that bad....course that's easy for him up in college to say:D:D

What if they want to get involved in medical research or medical law. Perhaps they will go on to hospital management. This is where the test falls down, the personality aptituteds needed to be a gp differ greatly to that of someone wishing to do research and so on.

If they really wanted to sort out the situation the govt. should buy back the places going to foreign students. Not only this but it should be the case that students who apply for and are gien a course where below a certain percent of the applicants get it are obliged to pay the entire cost of their course if they decide to drop out half way through. This would put pressure on people to put more thought into their course rather than just using all their points. Anyone, regardless of income, who genuinely wished to study medicine and has put serious thought into it will not have to worry about anything.

kellykl

Piste wrote: »

I don't think you can do that, I think you have to combine the points from the leaving cert with the points from the aptitude test and both have to be sat in the same year.

I didn't realise they had to be from the same year. So much for that then!

Anthony16

I don't like the idea of aptitude tests but they seem fair and there are more places for applicants so i should not be complaining. Come to think of it,if 480 pts is enough along wit the aptitude test,then the combined total(between leaving cert points and aptitude test), must be at very least780 points.

Gangsta

Anthony16 wrote: »

I don't like the idea of aptitude tests but they seem fair and there are more places for applicants so i should not be complaining. Come to think of it,if 480 pts is enough along wit the aptitude test,then the combined total(between leaving cert points and aptitude test), must be at very least780 points.

Tbh, I think you'll need well over 800 to get in.

Anthony16

Gangsta wrote: »

Tbh, I think you'll need well over 800 to get in.

I respect ur opinion but what u are suggesting is not possible. Ppl who attain 480 pts cn sit the aptitude test right. The aptitude test carries a max score of 300 pts. 480 + 300 = 780 pts.Tat must be the minimum allowed to gain entry,anything else is not possible

ZorbaTehZ

Anthony16 wrote: »

I respect ur opinion but what u are suggesting is not possible. Ppl who attain 480 pts cn sit the aptitude test right. The aptitude test carries a max score of 300 pts. 480 + 300 = 780 pts.Tat must be the minimum allowed to gain entry,anything else is not possible

The maximum from the new system is 860 - 600 points in your leaving and a score of 300 in the HPAT. 480 points is only the cut-off for applicants. When you have satisfied the basic criteria (480 LC points, pass in HPAT) then it is essentially the top X students in terms of number of combined points that will receive places. Unfortunately Gangsta is probably right.

Anthony16

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

The maximum from the new system is 860 - 600 points in your leaving and a score of 300 in the HPAT. 480 points is only the cut-off for applicants. When you have satisfied the basic criteria (480 LC points, pass in HPAT) then it is essentially the top X students in terms of number of combined points that will receive places. Unfortunately Gangsta is probably right.

But what would be the point in making 480 the cut off if it is impossible for those applicants to gain entry?If this is true i do feel sorry for those ppl who won't be able to get well over 500 in the leaving cert. They hav been given false hope and i don't think that is right

tabouli

Piste wrote: »

I don't think you can do that, I think you have to combine the points from the leaving cert with the points from the aptitude test and both have to be sat in the same year.

CAO Med Entry PDF wrote:

In 2009, undergraduate entry to medicine for school leavers will be based on both:
• achieving a minimum of 480 points and meeting the minimum entry requirements for the programme in the same sitting
of the Irish Leaving Certificate Examination (or equivalent*)
and
• completing the required admissions test (HPAT-Ireland) within the 2 year period immediately preceding admission to the
medicine programme

So as long as you've met all the course requirements in any one sitting and have done the HPAT in the last two years, you can get in.

Gangsta

Anthony16 wrote: »

I respect ur opinion but what u are suggesting is not possible. Ppl who attain 480 pts cn sit the aptitude test right. The aptitude test carries a max score of 300 pts. 480 + 300 = 780 pts.Tat must be the minimum allowed to gain entry,anything else is not possible

Man so you're telling me everyone who gets 780 will get in? You're havin a laugh. There isn't that many places. Look at the old matriculation requirements, they're even lower than 480! So going by your logic makes absolutely no sense....