Aptitude test for medicine announced

Anthony16

Piste wrote: »

Oh really? Cool, can you give us a link?

Watch out 4 few bad qs on section 1. hpat-ireland.acer.edu.au and go in2 preparation. gd luck

Adventure

nerd3000 wrote: »

Just a question

I'm using NUIG Medicine for this example

so the scenario is that loads are people getting 570+ in the Leaving Cert every year enough for Med. Every year it is random selection which means all spaces are filled. Let's say there are 80 places in the course and 20 miss out on random selection. The results statistics show that every year there are in and around the same number of people applying for medicine in NUIG, and basically the same number of people getting enough points so much so that random selection is employed every year. So in 2009, 100 people get 570+ points and apply for Medicine in NUIG and get say they all get 300 in the HPAT. Giving them a combined 870.

All of these get accepted right?

Why all of a sudden are there more spaces for more undergraduates? Surely if they can accommodate 100 next year than they accommodate the same this year.

Most importantly, the whole idea of reducing it to 490 in the LC is defeated as all the spaces are going to be filled by the people that would have gotten Medicine anyway if it had stayed at 570?
Bit conveluted but does anyone see what I mean??

or am I totally mistaken and the Dept of Educa are hoping that people who perform well in the LC (570+) will somehow faulter when it comes to the HPAT? If they are using that premise then this idea may as well be scrapped!

Also, Why on earth is it in FEBURARY!??
I remember that as the most exhausting part of the year...it took me till then to realize I had the LC but also MOCKS & ORALS wedged in there too. and imagine your disappointment to know that the dream of medicine is over before you do the LC

Their 570 will be adjusted to 554.

I was told by a careers expert that the selection process will be done by merit , ie. highest combined points get it first and they then go down the list.
So basically its the same old points race. But the real question is , does a person with 480 have a chance?

postalservice

What I find funny is that grinds schools e.g Bruce in Cork are already taking bookings for grinds in the HPATs or watevr they're called.

I fear it will become more difficult for those from less well off background to get into Medicine even if they have worked their asses off to get the 570+ pts necessary in the old system.:pac:

PurpleFistMixer

postalservice wrote: »

I fear it will become more difficult for those from less well off background to get into Medicine even if they have worked their asses off to get the 570+ pts necessary in the old system.:pac:

Well, that's always been the case. Hopefully with the aptitude test though, it's not something that you can "buy" good grades in with grinds.

Piste

Anthony16 wrote: »

Watch out 4 few bad qs on section 1. hpat-ireland.acer.edu.au and go in2 preparation. gd luck

Oh cool thanks, I checked for it a few weeks ago and it wasn't up then.

Jeebus

The new system is a joke. An absolute travesty, it really angers me thinking about it.

Imagine this - you've just turned eighteen. You've spent your entire life working, striving towards obtaining the high points to become a doctor. You've put in countless hours of work, dedicating your life to study, so that you may earn the points to allow you to persue your vocation.

But now, all your work is essentially pointless, with daytrippers having essentially the same chance of getting to become doctors, as someone who has worked for it their entire lives. It actually makes me sick to think about it. You work, and work, and work, and you work enough to get your 600 points (a lot of work, as I am sure the students here can appreciate), but then you don't get in, because of a test that you can't even study for ?! It's a joke. As if getting prospective students to sit ANOTHER exam will solve ANYTHING.

Even if you're part of the "Oooh, but the Leaving Cert isn't a fair way to test doctors, I mean some of them might be great at book learning, but have no social skills..." argument, how the **** is getting us to sit another WRITTEN exam going to change things ? It's easy to say what people want to hear in exams, I mean "OK...I am applying to be a doctor, I should pretend I am cautious, well natured and dedicated....but really I'm just here for the day off school LOL". The only thing that could be any worse would be an interview, which would be abused beyond all measure (Only takes a phone call for Daddy to get his son/daughter into college then...).

I'm sorry, but this whole thing seems like a big joke to me - if you're working enough to get your 600 points, your dedicated and you can work hard , but now there is essentially no credit for getting anything over 550.

You know what someone said to me yesterday ? "Ooh, I am putting down Medicine as my first choice....just, you know...for the laugh. Sure, its only 480 points now if I can bluff my way through the aptitude test!". There will be countless students around the country doing the same thing, too. From that, you can see, its not making the people going through to the course any more qualified or suited to the job, all its doing is making it come down less to talent, less to dedication, less to hard work and more to blind, dumb luck.

If you think the healthcare system will improve in years to come, think again. While the doctors of yesteryear may, in some cases, have had horrible bedside manner, at least they were intelligent and hard-working enough to get their 600 points. In a few years time, the newly qualified doctors emerging from our Universities may have just "done it for the laugh".

Phototoxin

its designed to stop son of dr x being pushed into medicine. Its also designed to show up peoplw who can memorise bullsh*t in the leaving but who cannot actually apply it in real life.

Addionally there are some 'soft' subjects in the leaving.

Anthony16

Jeebus wrote: »

The new system is a joke. An absolute travesty, it really angers me thinking about it.

Imagine this - you've just turned eighteen. You've spent your entire life working, striving towards obtaining the high points to become a doctor. You've put in countless hours of work, dedicating your life to study, so that you may earn the points to allow you to persue your vocation.

But now, all your work is essentially pointless, with daytrippers having essentially the same chance of getting to become doctors, as someone who has worked for it their entire lives. It actually makes me sick to think about it. You work, and work, and work, and you work enough to get your 600 points (a lot of work, as I am sure the students here can appreciate), but then you don't get in, because of a test that you can't even study for ?! It's a joke. As if getting prospective students to sit ANOTHER exam will solve ANYTHING.

Even if you're part of the "Oooh, but the Leaving Cert isn't a fair way to test doctors, I mean some of them might be great at book learning, but have no social skills..." argument, how the **** is getting us to sit another WRITTEN exam going to change things ? It's easy to say what people want to hear in exams, I mean "OK...I am applying to be a doctor, I should pretend I am cautious, well natured and dedicated....but really I'm just here for the day off school LOL". The only thing that could be any worse would be an interview, which would be abused beyond all measure (Only takes a phone call for Daddy to get his son/daughter into college then...).

I'm sorry, but this whole thing seems like a big joke to me - if you're working enough to get your 600 points, your dedicated and you can work hard , but now there is essentially no credit for getting anything over 550.

You know what someone said to me yesterday ? "Ooh, I am putting down Medicine as my first choice....just, you know...for the laugh. Sure, its only 480 points now if I can bluff my way through the aptitude test!". There will be countless students around the country doing the same thing, too. From that, you can see, its not making the people going through to the course any more qualified or suited to the job, all its doing is making it come down less to talent, less to dedication, less to hard work and more to blind, dumb luck.

If you think the healthcare system will improve in years to come, think again. While the doctors of yesteryear may, in some cases, have had horrible bedside manner, at least they were intelligent and hard-working enough to get their 600 points. In a few years time, the newly qualified doctors emerging from our Universities may have just "done it for the laugh".

I agree with a lot of what u are saying but there are 2 sides to the argument.Those ppl u say are puttin medicine down as 1st choice "for a laugh" will not get through 1st yr medicine and dat s wit t minimal chance dat dey may get into the course.

Piste

Jeebus wrote: »

The new system is a joke. An absolute travesty, it really angers me thinking about it.

Imagine this - you've just turned eighteen. You've spent your entire life working, striving towards obtaining the high points to become a doctor. You've put in countless hours of work, dedicating your life to study, so that you may earn the points to allow you to persue your vocation.

But now, all your work is essentially pointless,

The person who worked for medicine got medicine, how is their work "pointless"?

with daytrippers having essentially the same chance of getting to become doctors, as someone who has worked for it their entire lives.

Lol no, you seriously think the "daytrippers" will have a chance of getting into medicine? The points are still gonna be seriously high!

It actually makes me sick to think about it. You work, and work, and work, and you work enough to get your 600 points (a lot of work, as I am sure the students here can appreciate), but then you don't get in, because of a test that you can't even study for ?!

If you get 600 points and only get 200 points in the test you're still better off than someone who got 500 points and got 250 points in the test.

Even if you're part of the "Oooh, but the Leaving Cert isn't a fair way to test doctors, I mean some of them might be great at book learning, but have no social skills..." argument, how the **** is getting us to sit another WRITTEN exam going to change things ? It's easy to say what people want to hear in exams, I mean "OK...I am applying to be a doctor, I should pretend I am cautious, well natured and dedicated....but really I'm just here for the day off school LOL".

Have you actually looked at the sample paper? It tests innate skills other than understanding and memorising.

I'm sorry, but this whole thing seems like a big joke to me - if you're working enough to get your 600 points, your dedicated and you can work hard , but now there is essentially no credit for getting anything over 550.

I'm sure there are several people out there who got 500 points and worked just as hard as someone who got 600 points. If they beat the 600-pointer then they scored better in the aptitude test which measures important skills- how is this bad?

You know what someone said to me yesterday ? "Ooh, I am putting down Medicine as my first choice....just, you know...for the laugh. Sure, its only 480 points now if I can bluff my way through the aptitude test!". There will be countless students around the country doing the same thing, too.

And thankfully, unless they get scarily-high points, none of them will get medicine

From that, you can see, its not making the people going through to the course any more qualified or suited to the job, all its doing is making it come down less to talent, less to dedication, less to hard work and more to blind, dumb luck.

I really wouldn't agree that the LC is a measure of talent. And luck doesn't really come into the aptitude test. It's not as if the entrie test is "flip this coin, if you get heads you're into medicine!"

If you think the healthcare system will improve in years to come, think again. While the doctors of yesteryear may, in some cases, have had horrible bedside manner, at least they were intelligent and hard-working enough to get their 600 points. In a few years time, the newly qualified doctors emerging from our Universities may have just "done it for the laugh".

Lol, do you really think anyone doing it for the lulz will even pass pre-med? I think you underestimate how much work is required in medicine!

Anthony16

The grind courses for hpat will probably prove useful to a lot of candidates.I wont b doing them cos of the cost but id recommend ppl try them

timmywex

Few things a bout this;

Really wont make much difference imho, my guidance teacher just thinks it will end up worse than it was, itll be corrupt and so on so forth!

The 95euro charge is steep, but thats to discourage chancers like me wanting to do it, ive no interest in medicine, even though i would prob have got the points the old way anyways, if the fee wasnt much, id do the aptitude test for the expiriece anyways!

So basically, this whole thing will just make it harder, doing and applying for hpat earlier, some people would only decide for medine coming nearer christmas when they read all the prospectus', but, oh well, they may decide sooner!

smndly

I'm repeating my leaving cert now after getting 535 last year. The worst thing about it isnt the aptitude test; its the new matric rules that apply for medicine ONLY! I have to repeat irish maths english and french even though i passed all of them last year!!! When was the last time a doctor needed french??? Its international convention that ALL medical conferences are now in English.

What makes me sick though is the thought of putting myself in the shoes of someone whos repeating for the second time for medicine: Last year they would have repeated safe in the knowledge that they never have to satisfy the matric requirements ever again. Now they have to take up subjects such as irish and maths which they havent done in over a year!!! The department springs this on everyone in the middle of 2008!!

What i dont understand is WHY they've imposed this rule and why does it apply to medicine only??

Stompbox

Jeebus wrote: »

The new system is a joke. An absolute travesty, it really angers me thinking about it.

Imagine this - you've just turned eighteen. You've spent your entire life working, striving towards obtaining the high points to become a doctor. You've put in countless hours of work, dedicating your life to study, so that you may earn the points to allow you to persue your vocation.

But now, all your work is essentially pointless, with daytrippers having essentially the same chance of getting to become doctors, as someone who has worked for it their entire lives. It actually makes me sick to think about it. You work, and work, and work, and you work enough to get your 600 points (a lot of work, as I am sure the students here can appreciate), but then you don't get in, because of a test that you can't even study for ?! It's a joke. As if getting prospective students to sit ANOTHER exam will solve ANYTHING.

Even if you're part of the "Oooh, but the Leaving Cert isn't a fair way to test doctors, I mean some of them might be great at book learning, but have no social skills..." argument, how the **** is getting us to sit another WRITTEN exam going to change things ? It's easy to say what people want to hear in exams, I mean "OK...I am applying to be a doctor, I should pretend I am cautious, well natured and dedicated....but really I'm just here for the day off school LOL". The only thing that could be any worse would be an interview, which would be abused beyond all measure (Only takes a phone call for Daddy to get his son/daughter into college then...).

I'm sorry, but this whole thing seems like a big joke to me - if you're working enough to get your 600 points, your dedicated and you can work hard , but now there is essentially no credit for getting anything over 550.

You know what someone said to me yesterday ? "Ooh, I am putting down Medicine as my first choice....just, you know...for the laugh. Sure, its only 480 points now if I can bluff my way through the aptitude test!". There will be countless students around the country doing the same thing, too. From that, you can see, its not making the people going through to the course any more qualified or suited to the job, all its doing is making it come down less to talent, less to dedication, less to hard work and more to blind, dumb luck.

If you think the healthcare system will improve in years to come, think again. While the doctors of yesteryear may, in some cases, have had horrible bedside manner, at least they were intelligent and hard-working enough to get their 600 points. In a few years time, the newly qualified doctors emerging from our Universities may have just "done it for the laugh".

I'm sorry but you really missed the point. The aforementioned 'daytrippers' would have to secure at least 540 to really be in with a shot. People obtaining 480 points are out of the race I'm afraid. I don't necessarily believe that 'intelligence' and '600 points' are mutually exclusive. The converse could be said for the HPAT however.

Those would wish to study medicine 'just for the laugh' are sorely misguided and as a previous poster already mentioned, the charge of 95 big ones is likely to deter many prospective low-500s, not least those who score below 500.

'but then you don't get in, because of a test that you can't even study for ?!'

Surely this is the point, it's what aptitude tests are for. To test that which cannot be studied. In my experience, I've seen many high-achievers, prospective doctors due to their points in previous years, and qualified doctors who are socially inept and they do not make good doctors.

Remember, high points may not translate into good doctoring.

And I'm gonna be scathingly honest here but it would seem as though you are intimidated by the aptitude test. Why not embrace it? Secure your high points, prepare for the aptitude test instead of whinging about it. This is advice here, not criticism.

With you on this one Piste!

Adventure

Piste wrote: »

If you get 600 points and only get 200 points in the test you're still better off than someone who got 500 points and got 250 points in the test.

He'll only be 10 points ahead.......


Besides, its a stupid system.

All they should have done was: require that subject requirement grades must be together on the same sitting of LC points. The points would have instantly fell, back down to the 535's like in 2000.

That , or, have strict subject requirements like three sciences.. or something.

Oh and people remember : HIGH demand but small places = HIGH points but same places.

Anthony16

Adventure wrote: »

He'll only be 10 points ahead.......


Besides, its a stupid system.

All they should have done was: require that subject requirement grades must be together on the same sitting of LC points. The points would have instantly fell, back down to the 535's like in 2000.

That , or, have strict subject requirements like three sciences.. or something.

Oh and people remember : HIGH demand but small places = HIGH points but same places.

I heard there are more places.Anyway,the practice test is not difficult so i assume most ppl will do extremely well

Piste

Are you talking bout the online sample test or the one you can buy from the site?

Justlookin

So i'm really considering doing medicine. Just cant get it out of my head. Only have 520 points though, is there much point doing the hpat? Do i stand a fair chance of getting in? I know its the first year and all so people dont know for certain and by theory i should but we all know things very rarely work as the theory says they should. So yeah to summerise do my chances look good?

Piste

Do you think you'll only get 520 points in the Leaving Cert? You never know, you might get more!

Justlookin

Oh sorry i meant to say that i sat the leaving cert last year and only got 520, i'm thinking of taking the hpat this year using the points from last year. Just wondering if i bother getting my hopes up or not?

Piste

Oh ok, well 520 might get you in depending on how good your HPAT is, I'd say you'd need to do really well. Do you have all the subject requirements too?

Justlookin

For everywhere except trinity, never knew what i wanted to do so i only took one science subject. Typical really. I guess it all comes down to the apptitude test, no pressure then :rolleyes:

yay_for_summer

smndly wrote: »

The worst thing about it isnt the aptitude test; its the new matric rules that apply for medicine ONLY! I have to repeat irish maths english and french even though i passed all of them last year!!! When was the last time a doctor needed french??? Its international convention that ALL medical conferences are now in English.

To be honest I think that's really fair. In the old system, someone could get their C3 in chem, pass English, Irish, maths and French and get say 500 points? Then repeat, do "soft" subjects and get their 580/590/600 with A1s in geography, history, business, accounting, construction, French...subjects that have absolutely nothing to do with medicine. (I'm not saying those subjects are necessarily easy by the way, I did accounting and it took a lot of work!) At least with the new matric requirements everyone's on a an evenish footing.

EamonnKeane

Sweet wrote: »

Remember, high points may not translate into good doctoring.

And I'm gonna be scathingly honest here but it would seem as though you are intimidated by the aptitude test. Why not embrace it? Secure your high points, prepare for the aptitude test instead of whinging about it. This is advice here, not criticism.

High points represent an ability to memorise and interpret large volumes of information, one of a doctor's most vital skills. "o no but nreds has no bedsid manerz!!" - if the HSE want to improve doctors' personal conduct, then perhaps they should stop forcing them to work 36-hour shifts. That might be more effective than some test. And if they were genuinely concerned about how difficult entry was, the universities would stop giving so many places to foreign students.

Piste

EamonnKeane wrote: »

High points represent an ability to memorise and interpret large volumes of information, one of a doctor's most vital skills. "o no but nreds has no bedsid manerz!!" - if the HSE want to improve doctors' personal conduct, then perhaps they should stop forcing them to work 36-hour shifts. That might be more effective than some test.

Yeah I agree with this, Doctor's do need to be able to recall vast amounts of information under pressure, and also need to be able to present information clearly and consisely so the Leaving Cert does help with this and is a good indicator of the best types of people with the skills for medicine. I think that the HPAT is also important though because it measures skills that the Leaving Cert does not so it's a good thing that it's being taken into account as well as the Leaving Cert.

Justlookin

I think the test will help people make more informed decisions, getting 600 points doesnt mean you'll be a good doctor. Anyone know how many places for medicine are being offered in total this year?

deleriumtremens

Hey, just curious about something here. I did the leaving in 2007 and got into a good course but I had to either repeat first year or do the exams i failed next summer without attending lectures. So I chose to take this year out to work and do a different course next year,starting in autumn 2009. Im thinking of applying for medicine and am aware that there is a new entry system that requires applicants to get 480 points and pass an assessment of sorts.
So my question is do you present 6th years hear of many people planning on applying for medicine just because they think they can get 480 or so points? I got 570 and am just wondering if due to the increased numbers of people likely to try their hands at getting a place in one of the medical course that my chances are signicantly lowered?

deleriumtremens

just noticed theres a thread about this stuff already...sorry!

Piste

No worries, I'll move this thread over there.