Aptitude test for medicine announced

Kwekubo

Gangsta wrote: »

Man so you're telling me everyone who gets 780 will get in? You're havin a laugh. There isn't that many places. Look at the old matriculation requirements, they're even lower than 480! So going by your logic makes absolutely no sense....

He said it's the minimum, not the maximum. A person with less than 480 points will be ineligible for consideration under the new scheme, even if they were to get full marks in the HPAT.

Piste

4Xcut wrote: »

What if they want to get involved in medical research or medical law. Perhaps they will go on to hospital management. This is where the test falls down, the personality aptituteds needed to be a gp differ greatly to that of someone wishing to do research and so on.

This is a very good point, I want to do medicine but I'd really like to go into medical research when I graduate, I just don't know if I'd make a good doctor, but I think I'd make a good researcher, so I should have every right to a place (provided i get the points) as someone really caring with amazing interpersonal skills* who also scores the same points.









that's not to say I'm not wonderfully caring with amazing interpersonal skills >_>

Anthony16

Gangsta wrote: »

Man so you're telling me everyone who gets 780 will get in? You're havin a laugh. There isn't that many places. Look at the old matriculation requirements, they're even lower than 480! So going by your logic makes absolutely no sense....

Ur prob right man but i like to be optimistic. Do you think people will do that well in the aptitude test??Im not sure you know its possible many ppl will do badly.In england, if you get half to two thirds of the aptitude test correct it is considered a gr8 score,and you get in with that. usually.They say in the english one most ppl get half the answers correct so if that applied to the irish one the points would be lower.It may not happen but its worth discussion.

Plug-me-in

Wow am I thankful I got medicine this year!!




I do think that this new system will cause some controversy, as with everything there are people for and against, but no-one will no whether it will be a success till it's been tried out! Did i hear somewhere that people with the highest leaving points will still have priority? Isn't that kind of defeating the purpose? Maybe i'm wrong, better go read the opening article in some more depth...

TheDonMan

I don't get it. You have to have at least 480 points in your LC to take the HPAT but the test is in February?

Or am I wrong and anyone can take the HPAT and they will just disregard the scores of the people who got less than 480 in LC?

Piste

Yeah you're right with the second one. You take your HPAT before the LC and get the results just after the LC results.

TheDonMan

Piste wrote: »

Yeah you're right with the second one. You take your HPAT before the LC and get the results just after the LC results.

That kinda sucks for the people who get below 480 points and have payed their money.

Piste

Yip, though really it's highly unlikely to dip as low as 480 so they should be aiming for 550+

TheDonMan

Piste wrote: »

Yip, though really it's highly unlikely to dip as low as 480 so they should be aiming for 550+

Suppose so. People will have also most likely done their mocks by then (right?) so they will have something to go on before wasting their time and money taking the exam.

Piste

Well you have to register and pay in November I think, dunno if there's a refund!

nerd3000

Just a question

I'm using NUIG Medicine for this example

so the scenario is that loads are people getting 570+ in the Leaving Cert every year enough for Med. Every year it is random selection which means all spaces are filled. Let's say there are 80 places in the course and 20 miss out on random selection. The results statistics show that every year there are in and around the same number of people applying for medicine in NUIG, and basically the same number of people getting enough points so much so that random selection is employed every year. So in 2009, 100 people get 570+ points and apply for Medicine in NUIG and get say they all get 300 in the HPAT. Giving them a combined 870.

All of these get accepted right?

Why all of a sudden are there more spaces for more undergraduates? Surely if they can accommodate 100 next year than they accommodate the same this year.

Most importantly, the whole idea of reducing it to 490 in the LC is defeated as all the spaces are going to be filled by the people that would have gotten Medicine anyway if it had stayed at 570?
Bit conveluted but does anyone see what I mean??

or am I totally mistaken and the Dept of Educa are hoping that people who perform well in the LC (570+) will somehow faulter when it comes to the HPAT? If they are using that premise then this idea may as well be scrapped!

Also, Why on earth is it in FEBURARY!??
I remember that as the most exhausting part of the year...it took me till then to realize I had the LC but also MOCKS & ORALS wedged in there too. and imagine your disappointment to know that the dream of medicine is over before you do the LC

Anthony16

Yes but there are moreplaces this year than in previous years.

PurpleFistMixer

I suppose the idea of the aptitude test is try and cut out some of the high-pointers. The real question then is just how effective it is at selecting those who are right, and how susceptible it is to what has happened to the LC - people just rote-learning and brute-forcing their way into good marks.

Kwekubo

nerd3000 wrote: »

so the scenario is that loads are people getting 570+ in the Leaving Cert every year enough for Med. Every year it is random selection which means all spaces are filled. Let's say there are 80 places in the course and 20 miss out on random selection. The results statistics show that every year there are in and around the same number of people applying for medicine in NUIG, and basically the same number of people getting enough points so much so that random selection is employed every year. So in 2009, 100 people get 570+ points and apply for Medicine in NUIG and get say they all get 300 in the HPAT. Giving them a combined 870.

All of these get accepted right?

Why all of a sudden are there more spaces for more undergraduates? Surely if they can accommodate 100 next year than they accommodate the same this year.

You make an interesting point. There are extra spaces coming on stream, but regardless of this, random selection might still apply if there are enough people with the same combined points score who are vying for the last few places. However, it may be that HPAT will include some way to choose between people with equal points, such as an essay; no-one knows until more info is released about HPAT.

Anthony16

How do you guys think ppl will score on the hpat?i doubt many will get over 250 points in it-bujt that is just my opinion

Piste

Really? If it's anything like the HPAT-Ulster I would expect most people to do very well...

Anthony16

Piste wrote: »

Really? If it's anything like the HPAT-Ulster I would expect most people to do very well...

From looking at the sample questions on both they seem significantly different.My bro (a medical student) heard that there was very little similarity

Piste

Is there a HPAT-Ireland sample paper up already?

Anthony16

Piste wrote: »

Is there a HPAT-Ireland sample paper up already?

Just a few sample questions but some answers make no since so i wz told to disregard them.They av bn up for a long time now

Piste

Oh really? Cool, can you give us a link?

Anthony16

Piste wrote: »

Oh really? Cool, can you give us a link?

Watch out 4 few bad qs on section 1. hpat-ireland.acer.edu.au and go in2 preparation. gd luck

Adventure

nerd3000 wrote: »

Just a question

I'm using NUIG Medicine for this example

so the scenario is that loads are people getting 570+ in the Leaving Cert every year enough for Med. Every year it is random selection which means all spaces are filled. Let's say there are 80 places in the course and 20 miss out on random selection. The results statistics show that every year there are in and around the same number of people applying for medicine in NUIG, and basically the same number of people getting enough points so much so that random selection is employed every year. So in 2009, 100 people get 570+ points and apply for Medicine in NUIG and get say they all get 300 in the HPAT. Giving them a combined 870.

All of these get accepted right?

Why all of a sudden are there more spaces for more undergraduates? Surely if they can accommodate 100 next year than they accommodate the same this year.

Most importantly, the whole idea of reducing it to 490 in the LC is defeated as all the spaces are going to be filled by the people that would have gotten Medicine anyway if it had stayed at 570?
Bit conveluted but does anyone see what I mean??

or am I totally mistaken and the Dept of Educa are hoping that people who perform well in the LC (570+) will somehow faulter when it comes to the HPAT? If they are using that premise then this idea may as well be scrapped!

Also, Why on earth is it in FEBURARY!??
I remember that as the most exhausting part of the year...it took me till then to realize I had the LC but also MOCKS & ORALS wedged in there too. and imagine your disappointment to know that the dream of medicine is over before you do the LC

Their 570 will be adjusted to 554.

I was told by a careers expert that the selection process will be done by merit , ie. highest combined points get it first and they then go down the list.
So basically its the same old points race. But the real question is , does a person with 480 have a chance?

postalservice

What I find funny is that grinds schools e.g Bruce in Cork are already taking bookings for grinds in the HPATs or watevr they're called.

I fear it will become more difficult for those from less well off background to get into Medicine even if they have worked their asses off to get the 570+ pts necessary in the old system.:pac:

PurpleFistMixer

postalservice wrote: »

I fear it will become more difficult for those from less well off background to get into Medicine even if they have worked their asses off to get the 570+ pts necessary in the old system.:pac:

Well, that's always been the case. Hopefully with the aptitude test though, it's not something that you can "buy" good grades in with grinds.

Piste

Anthony16 wrote: »

Watch out 4 few bad qs on section 1. hpat-ireland.acer.edu.au and go in2 preparation. gd luck

Oh cool thanks, I checked for it a few weeks ago and it wasn't up then.

Jeebus

The new system is a joke. An absolute travesty, it really angers me thinking about it.

Imagine this - you've just turned eighteen. You've spent your entire life working, striving towards obtaining the high points to become a doctor. You've put in countless hours of work, dedicating your life to study, so that you may earn the points to allow you to persue your vocation.

But now, all your work is essentially pointless, with daytrippers having essentially the same chance of getting to become doctors, as someone who has worked for it their entire lives. It actually makes me sick to think about it. You work, and work, and work, and you work enough to get your 600 points (a lot of work, as I am sure the students here can appreciate), but then you don't get in, because of a test that you can't even study for ?! It's a joke. As if getting prospective students to sit ANOTHER exam will solve ANYTHING.

Even if you're part of the "Oooh, but the Leaving Cert isn't a fair way to test doctors, I mean some of them might be great at book learning, but have no social skills..." argument, how the **** is getting us to sit another WRITTEN exam going to change things ? It's easy to say what people want to hear in exams, I mean "OK...I am applying to be a doctor, I should pretend I am cautious, well natured and dedicated....but really I'm just here for the day off school LOL". The only thing that could be any worse would be an interview, which would be abused beyond all measure (Only takes a phone call for Daddy to get his son/daughter into college then...).

I'm sorry, but this whole thing seems like a big joke to me - if you're working enough to get your 600 points, your dedicated and you can work hard , but now there is essentially no credit for getting anything over 550.

You know what someone said to me yesterday ? "Ooh, I am putting down Medicine as my first choice....just, you know...for the laugh. Sure, its only 480 points now if I can bluff my way through the aptitude test!". There will be countless students around the country doing the same thing, too. From that, you can see, its not making the people going through to the course any more qualified or suited to the job, all its doing is making it come down less to talent, less to dedication, less to hard work and more to blind, dumb luck.

If you think the healthcare system will improve in years to come, think again. While the doctors of yesteryear may, in some cases, have had horrible bedside manner, at least they were intelligent and hard-working enough to get their 600 points. In a few years time, the newly qualified doctors emerging from our Universities may have just "done it for the laugh".

Phototoxin

its designed to stop son of dr x being pushed into medicine. Its also designed to show up peoplw who can memorise bullsh*t in the leaving but who cannot actually apply it in real life.

Addionally there are some 'soft' subjects in the leaving.

Anthony16

Jeebus wrote: »

The new system is a joke. An absolute travesty, it really angers me thinking about it.

Imagine this - you've just turned eighteen. You've spent your entire life working, striving towards obtaining the high points to become a doctor. You've put in countless hours of work, dedicating your life to study, so that you may earn the points to allow you to persue your vocation.

But now, all your work is essentially pointless, with daytrippers having essentially the same chance of getting to become doctors, as someone who has worked for it their entire lives. It actually makes me sick to think about it. You work, and work, and work, and you work enough to get your 600 points (a lot of work, as I am sure the students here can appreciate), but then you don't get in, because of a test that you can't even study for ?! It's a joke. As if getting prospective students to sit ANOTHER exam will solve ANYTHING.

Even if you're part of the "Oooh, but the Leaving Cert isn't a fair way to test doctors, I mean some of them might be great at book learning, but have no social skills..." argument, how the **** is getting us to sit another WRITTEN exam going to change things ? It's easy to say what people want to hear in exams, I mean "OK...I am applying to be a doctor, I should pretend I am cautious, well natured and dedicated....but really I'm just here for the day off school LOL". The only thing that could be any worse would be an interview, which would be abused beyond all measure (Only takes a phone call for Daddy to get his son/daughter into college then...).

I'm sorry, but this whole thing seems like a big joke to me - if you're working enough to get your 600 points, your dedicated and you can work hard , but now there is essentially no credit for getting anything over 550.

You know what someone said to me yesterday ? "Ooh, I am putting down Medicine as my first choice....just, you know...for the laugh. Sure, its only 480 points now if I can bluff my way through the aptitude test!". There will be countless students around the country doing the same thing, too. From that, you can see, its not making the people going through to the course any more qualified or suited to the job, all its doing is making it come down less to talent, less to dedication, less to hard work and more to blind, dumb luck.

If you think the healthcare system will improve in years to come, think again. While the doctors of yesteryear may, in some cases, have had horrible bedside manner, at least they were intelligent and hard-working enough to get their 600 points. In a few years time, the newly qualified doctors emerging from our Universities may have just "done it for the laugh".

I agree with a lot of what u are saying but there are 2 sides to the argument.Those ppl u say are puttin medicine down as 1st choice "for a laugh" will not get through 1st yr medicine and dat s wit t minimal chance dat dey may get into the course.

Piste

Jeebus wrote: »

The new system is a joke. An absolute travesty, it really angers me thinking about it.

Imagine this - you've just turned eighteen. You've spent your entire life working, striving towards obtaining the high points to become a doctor. You've put in countless hours of work, dedicating your life to study, so that you may earn the points to allow you to persue your vocation.

But now, all your work is essentially pointless,

The person who worked for medicine got medicine, how is their work "pointless"?

with daytrippers having essentially the same chance of getting to become doctors, as someone who has worked for it their entire lives.

Lol no, you seriously think the "daytrippers" will have a chance of getting into medicine? The points are still gonna be seriously high!

It actually makes me sick to think about it. You work, and work, and work, and you work enough to get your 600 points (a lot of work, as I am sure the students here can appreciate), but then you don't get in, because of a test that you can't even study for ?!

If you get 600 points and only get 200 points in the test you're still better off than someone who got 500 points and got 250 points in the test.

Even if you're part of the "Oooh, but the Leaving Cert isn't a fair way to test doctors, I mean some of them might be great at book learning, but have no social skills..." argument, how the **** is getting us to sit another WRITTEN exam going to change things ? It's easy to say what people want to hear in exams, I mean "OK...I am applying to be a doctor, I should pretend I am cautious, well natured and dedicated....but really I'm just here for the day off school LOL".

Have you actually looked at the sample paper? It tests innate skills other than understanding and memorising.

I'm sorry, but this whole thing seems like a big joke to me - if you're working enough to get your 600 points, your dedicated and you can work hard , but now there is essentially no credit for getting anything over 550.

I'm sure there are several people out there who got 500 points and worked just as hard as someone who got 600 points. If they beat the 600-pointer then they scored better in the aptitude test which measures important skills- how is this bad?

You know what someone said to me yesterday ? "Ooh, I am putting down Medicine as my first choice....just, you know...for the laugh. Sure, its only 480 points now if I can bluff my way through the aptitude test!". There will be countless students around the country doing the same thing, too.

And thankfully, unless they get scarily-high points, none of them will get medicine

From that, you can see, its not making the people going through to the course any more qualified or suited to the job, all its doing is making it come down less to talent, less to dedication, less to hard work and more to blind, dumb luck.

I really wouldn't agree that the LC is a measure of talent. And luck doesn't really come into the aptitude test. It's not as if the entrie test is "flip this coin, if you get heads you're into medicine!"

If you think the healthcare system will improve in years to come, think again. While the doctors of yesteryear may, in some cases, have had horrible bedside manner, at least they were intelligent and hard-working enough to get their 600 points. In a few years time, the newly qualified doctors emerging from our Universities may have just "done it for the laugh".

Lol, do you really think anyone doing it for the lulz will even pass pre-med? I think you underestimate how much work is required in medicine!

Anthony16

The grind courses for hpat will probably prove useful to a lot of candidates.I wont b doing them cos of the cost but id recommend ppl try them