Librarian Jobs

AARRRGH

I tried to kill this debate, but I have to reply to this...

Chinafoot wrote: »

Without this qualification you cannot be a librarian, so yes, the qualification is really necessary.

But is it necessary to go on a course full-time for seven months funded by the tax payer?

Chinafoot wrote: »

People can do it distance learning but it takes a lot longer (often 3 times as long) and often requires a number of trips to the university involved. For example I had to spend 5 nights in Aberystwyth in April. The distance learning courses also cost pretty much double that of the 7 month full-time course here.

You just answered my above question. No, it is not necessary.

Thank you.

Chinafoot wrote: »

So qualified staff in public positions such as libraries aren't necessary? Well sure, we may aswell just scrap the libraries altogether since you clearly don't deem them necessary.

WTF. When did I say libraries or librarians are unnecessary?

Seriously, please read what I'm saying, ok?

Chinafoot wrote: »

If you were a shareholder in a private company that was spending thousands on training staff and sending them off to college would you be this indignant? Would you rather the money was kept for the shareholders? I'm guessing you wouldn't because you'd realise that having highly skilled and qualified staff allows the company to provide a better service which is in turn beneficial for you.

Companies do not let their important staff disappear off for seven months.

They make them do an evening course, or a weekend course, or maybe the odd week here and there, but they don't send them off for seven months.

I realise a handful of companies are willing to do this, but most aren't.

Chinafoot wrote: »

Why should libraries be any different? You say you think the libraries are great but you don't think the powers that be should help their staff to progress and provide you, the public, with the best service possible?

You answered this one for me already. It's not necessary. There are distance courses available.

Chinafoot wrote: »

See this is the problem....."extra" qualifications. It's not just a few more letters to bump up the person's CV. If you do not have this qualification you are not, nor will you ever be, a librarian. Libraries need librarians and library assistants need this qualification to be librarians.

Answer me once and for all: is it possible to get a librarian qualification before getting a job in a library? Or do you have to work in a library before you can get a library qualification?

If the answer is the former, you have no argument. It is a waste of money sending people on a seven month course, with full salary, if you could simply require everyone you hire already has the qualification.

Chinafoot wrote: »

The way you're going on you'd swear they sent them off in droves. The competition for these courses is huge and UCD is the only fulltime course available in this country at the moment.

C'est la vie! I realise you work for the Government so you have a lower pain threshold than the average worker, but we all have to put up with competition for college places.

Didn't get the points, that's not my fault.

Chinafoot wrote: »

Also, do you have any idea how much money library assistants make?! Trust me, it's not enough to head off to college on our own steam for 7 months and still manage to pay our mortgages.

This is ridiculous now.

Hey - I'd love to be a surfer, but you know what, do you know how much money I make? How am I supposed to become a surfer and still manage to pay my mortgage?

The answer is, of course, you find another way to get your qualification, or you accept you cannot afford to do it. You don't expect the tax payer to foot your bill. You are not entitled to anything.

Chinafoot wrote: »

I don't expect you to change your opinion on this but I do find your attitude saddening. You'd probably be the very one to give out about the crap library service if the staff weren't qualified.

I find your "I deserve it" attitude saddening. This is the attitude which has our country paying through it's arse for its civil servants, etc.

Chinafoot

dublindude wrote: »

Seriously, please read what I'm saying, ok?

The irony of that is wonderful.

dublindude wrote: »

Answer me once and for all: is it possible to get a librarian qualification before getting a job in a library? Or do you have to work in a library before you can get a library qualification?

I answered that in my last post. Try reading it.

dublindude wrote: »

Didn't get the points, that's not my fault.

It's not about gettting the points.

dublindude wrote: »

I find your "I deserve it" attitude saddening. This is the attitude which has our country paying through it's arse for our civil servants, etc.

LOL, I think you'll find I don't have any sort of "I deserve it attitude". Instead I can see why those in charge would rather give a tiny, tiny percentage of their staff the opportunity to get the qualification in a third of the time it would take someone to do it via distance learning. It's benefits the libraries and therefore the public.

But feel free to ignore/deliberately misunderstand this post like you have done all the previous ones.

Oh and...

dublindude wrote: »

I realise you work for the Government so you have a lower pain threshold than the average worker,

Insulting me because I disagree with what you're saying? That's quite pathetic tbh and any point you were trying to make is made instantly redundant as far as I'm concerned. I've nothing else to say to you.

Some links for the OP:

Fingal County Council jobs section.
Dublin City Council jobs section
Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council
South Dublin County Council.

You should also sign up to www.publicjobs.ie and you'll get notified of relevant positions.

AARRRGH

Chinafoot wrote: »

I've nothing else to say to you.

Because you lost. Nice try though.

Let's end this debate. We'll just go on forever.

Chinafoot

dublindude wrote: »

Because you lost. Nice try though.

Nah I think you'll find it's because not only are you refusing to read what's being written but you've resorted to insulting me because of where I work. It's not worth my time when this obviously boils down to your issues with the civil service. But ya know....whatever makes you feel better :rolleyes:

And again to try and get back to the OP,

Aberystwyth University website. If you do get into libraries and decide to go the distance learning route like me, this is deemed to be the best university for Information and Library studies. Many of my co-workers have gained their qualification here.

nesf

dublindude wrote: »

Let's end this debate. We'll just go on forever.

Please don't, I'm enjoying watching your under informed rant about public sector wastage getting pieced apart slowly and you refusing to admit it.

randylonghorn

dublindude wrote: »

Because you lost.

Ah ... so there were prizes going? I was wondering why you were so determined to win the argument regardless ...

So ... what have we here?

A scheme whereby a tiny number of scholarships are available to library assistants (a fairly poorly paid job with absolutely no promotional prospects unless you have specific qualifications) who perform particularly well and seem to have the potential, interest and commitment to contribute more and at a higher level, given the opportunity, to go and get the necessary qualification.

Sounds like good human resources policy to me.

a) the employer benefits from an employee who is better trained

b) it acts as an incentive scheme for library assistants to put in the effort to impress their employers (because lord knows the wages aren't much of a carrot)

c) the employee gets an opportunity for education / training and eventual progression and satisfaction in their job, and that usually means improved productivity, or so the psychologists tell us.

And all this costs the taxpayer what? ... about the same as one TD's expenses? (it's not an expensive course, btw, relatively speaking)

And private sector companies don't fund promising employees for further training and education, both inside and outside of "normal" work hours? Of course they do ... or rather the better ones do. Hell, I know one guy who started his job straight out of college 5 years ago who has had as much spent on him in that period as would fund this scheme for a couple of years. And the reality is that in the long-term he will more than repay his employers for their investment ... they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts!


Oh, and btw, I'm not a librarian or a library assistant, and have no axe to grind. Actually, I only found this thread because you linked to it from elsewhere.

AARRRGH

Chinafoot wrote: »

Nah I think you'll find it's because not only are you refusing to read what's being written but you've resorted to insulting me because of where I work. It's not worth my time when this obviously boils down to your issues with the civil service. But ya know....whatever makes you feel better :rolleyes:

No... it's because you've realised the seven month course with full wages is unnecessary as there is a distance course you can do. Yes, the distance course takes a bit longer, but it doesn't cost the tax payer nearly as much.

I understand you don't want to have to spend a bit longer getting your qualification, but you can't always get what you want, and you should not expect (and you do expect!) the tax payer to foot the bill because of your impatience.

It's a huge problem in Ireland: people who work for the Government want to take as much as they can. I think this is wrong. If I were in charge of Library funding, I would force the staff to get their qualifications via distance learning and I would spend the few hundred thousand I'd saved on something more pressing, like better facilities or advertising the library to the local community.

Spending tax money on a course which is not necessary is not the way tax money should be spent. I know we've long lost the idea of having a trim and efficient Government, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it.

Can we end the argument? I'll accept a draw. I don't like arguing in the work forum.

AARRRGH

randylonghorn wrote: »

it's not an expensive course, btw, relatively speaking)

You've missed the bit where it is a full-time course for seven months where they get to keep their full wage.

There are alternative, cheaper courses.

It is a waste of tax payers money. End of story.

Chinafoot

dublindude wrote: »

No... it's because you've realised the seven month course with full wages is unnecessary as there is a distance course you can do. Yes, the distance course takes a bit longer, but it doesn't cost the tax payer nearly as much.

It's a tiny percentage that get sent for the 7 months. In my organisation its a maximum of 2 out of hundreds. Some years they dont send anyone. Perhaps HR would rather pay that little bit extra to have a decent supply of qualified librarians for their branches instead of waiting 3+ years for it.

dublindude wrote: »

I understand you don't want to have to spend a bit longer getting your qualification, but you can't always get what you want, and you should not expect (and you do expect!) the tax payer to foot the bill because of your impatience.

I do expect? Really? There was me thinking I had started my course via distance learning and that I'd be gaining my MSc in 3 years as opposed to 7 months. Yeah, how impatient of me. Read the posts for christ sake.

dublindude wrote: »

It's a huge problem in Ireland: people who work for the Government want to take as much as they can. I think this is wrong. If I were in charge of Library funding, I would force the staff to get their qualifications via distance learning and I would spend the few hundred thousand I'd saved on something more pressing, like better facilities or advertising the library to the local community.

Well since you clearly don't rate staff development it'd be pretty useless having better facilities without the staff to run it.

dublindude wrote: »

Spending tax money on a course which is not necessary is not the way tax money should be spent. I know we've long lost the idea of having a trim and efficient Government, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it.

Underline it all you want. It's not going to make it true.

dublindude wrote: »

Can we end the argument? I'll accept a draw. I don't like arguing in the work forum.

Like I said, you lost the argument once you started throwing insults.

AARRRGH

Chinafoot wrote: »

I do expect? Really? There was me thinking I had started my course via distance learning and that I'd be gaining my MSc in 3 years as opposed to 7 months. Yeah, how impatient of me. Read the posts for christ sake.

Whether you are doing the course or not is irrelevant, you believe you (or your colleagues) deserve it.

Chinafoot wrote: »

Well since you clearly don't rate staff development it'd be pretty useless having better facilities without the staff to run it.

Will you stop with the emotional nonsense.

Of course I rate staff development.

Again, if you read what I am typing, I think if a cheaper alternative exists, let's not pick the really really expensive option.

Doesn't that make sense?

It's not your money paying for it. It's the tax payers money.

The Government should be careful how it spends the tax payers money.

You do know we have a huge budget deficit?

The full-time course is a total luxury. There is no need for it. There is a cheaper, distance learning course.

Chinafoot wrote: »

Like I said, you lost the argument once you started throwing insults.

I never threw any insults.

If you are referring to my comment that Government workers expect more than private workers, no sane person can disagree with that.

randylonghorn

dublindude wrote: »

You've missed the bit where it is a full-time course for seven months where they get to keep their full wage.

There are alternative, cheaper courses.

It is a waste of tax payers money. End of story.

No, I didn't forget that. I was trying to avoid writing the 14th Epistle of RLH to the Tunnel-visioned.

There are alternative courses, yes. Equally good ones, yes. Cheaper ones? ... in the long run, no.

It's one of the (at first glance) odd things about distance learning courses that the fees are higher than contact courses, for reasons that are fairly irrelevant to this discussion.

Funding a library assistant on the Aberystwyth course would actually cost the employer more than the UCD one (and that's not taking into account such things as travel costs for intensive summer schools, etc.)

And as has already been pointed out, most people sponsored in this way on a "full-time" course are still required to work for their library in the evenings / weekends etc. ... just as ordinary "full-time" students might work off their own bat in the evenings and weekends.

dublindude wrote: »

Again, if you read what I am typing, I think if a cheaper alternative exists, let's not pick the really really expensive option.

But it's NOT the really ... oh, never mind!!

dublindude wrote: »

It is a waste of tax payers money. End of story.

Oh, hell! I missed the "end of" magical incantation. I'm sorry! I yield! Of course you are right ... oh wait, the magic doesn't seem to be working, Harry!

Look, I can be as skeptical and critical of waste of public money as the next person, there's plenty of it goes on out there.

You really haven't picked the best example to dance the tango on your soapbox about though ...

AARRRGH

randylonghorn wrote: »

There are alternative courses, yes. Equally good ones, yes. Cheaper ones? ... in the long run, no.

Maybe.

If I can see stats which showed the full-time course works out cheaper in the long run, I will happily retract everything I have said.

I think it's very unlikely though.

Losing a member of staff for seven months... still paying them their full wage... having to replace them while they're away... having to pay for their course...

That's gotta be a huge amount of money.

Chinafoot wrote: »

And as has already been pointed out, most peole sponsored in this way on a "full-time" course are still required to work for their library in the evenings / weekends etc. ... just as ordinary "full-time" students might work off their own bat in the evenings and weekends.

Yes, that does make a huge difference.

I guess part of the issue which is riling me is the librarians sense of entitlement. They should be entitled to do this course, even though (let's be honest, as harsh as it sounds) it was their fault they didn't get a librarianship qualification before applying for a job in the library.

Again, if it was a private company, I wouldn't give a ****, but our tax money is being wasted everywhere, and our country is in financial trouble.

Considering we are going to have to borrow billions in the next budget, I don't think it makes any sense to be spending money on things which are not absolutely necessary.

Chinafoot

dublindude wrote: »

Whether you are doing the course or not is irrelevant, you believe you (or your colleagues) deserve it.

And there we have that word again - deserve. Would you get a grip. Do you think every one in the civil service thinks they're entitled to anything they can get? Again, this all comes down to your issues with the civil service in general. Why not go ring Joe Duffy and vent your frustrations.

dublindude wrote: »

Will you stop with the emotional nonsense.

Emotional. My lord, your eally do just see what you want don't you?

dublindude wrote: »

Of course I rate staff development.

Again, if you read what I am typing, I think if a cheaper alternative exists, let's not pick the really really expensive option.

You are speaking as though the more expensive option is the main option. It's not. At all. The majority of people gain their qualification through distance learning. As randylonghorn pointed out, the full-time is a good incentive and also provides qualified staff much faster.

dublindude wrote: »

It's not your money paying for it. It's the tax payers money.

The Government should be careful how it spends the tax payers money.

I don't pay tax?

dublindude wrote: »

I never threw any insults.

If you are referring to my comment that Government workers expect more than private workers, no sane person can disagree with that.

And again with the beef with public workers. You did intend to insult me. Of course you did. "A lower pain threshold", you'll be telling me to get a "real" job next.

Your points have been refuted by multiple people at this point and I have absolutely no interest in trying to change your mind as that would involve you getting over whatever your problem is with the public service. You have made it clear that you won't be doing that anytime soon.

Chinafoot

dublindude wrote: »

to replace them while they're away

Doesn't happen.

dublindude wrote: »

I guess part of the issue which is riling me is the librarians sense of entitlement. They should be entitled to do this course, even though (let's be honest, as harsh as it sounds) it was their fault they didn't get a librarianship qualification before applying for a job in the library.

For the last time....You need library experience before you can be accepted to a postgraduate library studies course. This has been pointed out to you already.

AARRRGH

Chinafoot wrote: »

Do you think every one in the civil service thinks they're entitled to anything they can get?

Eh, I think it is common knowledge that they do?

Have you seen how much money civil servants earn?

You do know they are trying to get even more?

Sure you can farm it out to your union, but aren't you a member of that union?

Chinafoot wrote: »

Again, this all comes down to your issues with the civil service in general. Why not go ring Joe Duffy and vent your frustrations.

Well, it would be more down to my issues with wastage and civil servants thinking the Government has unlimited money.

Chinafoot wrote: »

Emotional. My lord, your eally do just see what you want don't you?

Well, you keep saying I think education and libraries and librarians are unimportant and unnecessary. If these aren't emotional statements (considering I haven't said anything like what you think I've said), well then I have no idea what they are.

Chinafoot wrote: »

You are speaking as though the more expensive option is the main option. It's not. At all. The majority of people gain their qualification through distance learning. As randylonghorn pointed out, the full-time is a good incentive and also provides qualified staff much faster.

If the full-time course turns out to be cheaper, I will apologise.

However, I used to be a Financial Controller (I'm an ex-Accountant, I now work in Software Development) so I would be quite familiar with expenses. I would be shocked if the full-time course turns out to be cheaper.

Chinafoot wrote: »

I don't pay tax?

Eh... think about that one for a second.

Chinafoot wrote: »

you'll be telling me to get a "real" job next.

Seriously... will you stop with that kind of talk.

AARRRGH

Chinafoot wrote: »

For the last time....You need library experience before you can be accepted to a postgraduate library studies course. This has been pointed out to you already.

You can't get a job as a librarian unless you've worked as a library assistant?

Red Hand

Chinafoot wrote: »

Doesn't happen.




For the last time....You need library experience before you can be accepted to a postgraduate library studies course. This has been pointed out to you already.

You're quoting and posting to someone who doesn't want to know. dublindude has his mind made up and there seems to be no changing it.

And we hear so much talk about public sector employees having tunnel vision and being inflexible!:)

(Sorry dublindude...I often agree with you on stuff but not this one.:))

AARRRGH

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

You're quoting and posting to someone who doesn't want to know. dublindude has his mind made up and there seems to be no changing it.

And we hear so much talk about public sector employees having tunnel vision and being inflexible!:)

(Sorry dublindude...I often agree with you on stuff but not this one.:))

That's OK It would be a boring place if we all agreed with each other on everything.

I'm not so arrogant to think I'm definitely right, but I see no flexibility on the other side of the fence...

AARRRGH

Wow, it's 02:18!

Right, let's make some compromises so we can put this to rest.

Librarians: you agree the Government is in financial trouble and needs to be really careful what it spends its money on. This may or may not include your full-time course.

Dublindude: I'll agree Librarians really believe this course is necessary and really believe it isn't a waste of money. They're not just sponging.

Chinafoot

dublindude wrote: »

Eh, I think it is common knowledge that they do?

Have you seen how much money civil servants earn?

You do know they are trying to get even more?

I've seen how much those at the top earn yes. Those at the bottom, very different story.

dublindude wrote: »

Sure you can farm it out to your union, but aren't you a member of that union?

I'm not involved in any union.

dublindude wrote: »

Well, it would be more down to my issues with wastage and civil servants thinking the Government has unlimited money.

And I agree with you on the wastage. However, I think your ranting on this one is misplaced.

dublindude wrote: »

You can't get a job as a librarian unless you've worked as a library assistant?

Of course not. You can't stroll in with absolutely no work experience in the area and become a librarian. You can't even get a place on the postgraduate library studies courses without experience (as has been pointed out to you more than once) so how on earth would you be able to get a position as a librarian?

Jeremiah, I agree completely.

dublindude wrote:

Librarians: you agree the Government is in financial trouble and needs to be really careful what it spends its money on. This may or may not include your precious course.

Dublindude: I'll agree Librarians really believe this course is necessary and really believe it isn't a waste of money.

And on that arrogant note, I'm out.

AARRRGH

Chinafoot wrote: »

And on that arrogant note, I'm out.

Very mature... Good night!

randylonghorn

I don't have all the figures you're looking for ... as I said I'm not a Librarian.

However ... girl I know (does NOT work in state sector) got agreement from her boss that the company would fund her to do the p/t Masters in Aberystwyth ... and yes, it was relevant to her work.

Two weeks later he came back and told her to apply for the UCD course instead, as it would end up costing them the same or less by the time they took into account relative time away, fees, travel, etc. and she would be finished much faster.

He's a fairly hard-headed businessman, and she is married, and while very sound, no Lolita, so I assume he knew what he was talking about!

She still worked an average 22.5 hour week, but was paid her full wages.

She did not have to travel to Aberystwyth for the residential modules (which would also entail time off work, expense, etc.)

EDIT:

dublindude wrote: »

Eh, I think it is common knowledge that they do?

i.e. that everybody in the Civil Service think they're entitled to anything they can get.

Em ... seriously, what kind of way to prove a point is that?

deecom

Calm down guys!!!! So far away from the question here! :eek:

AARRRGH

@randylonghorn:

Fair enough!

If it's true that there is now only one librarianship course in Ireland, and you are forced to work as a library assistant before doing it, that's pretty ****ed...

@deecom:

I think we're done.

randylonghorn

dublindude wrote: »

@randylonghorn:

Fair enough!

If it's true that there is now only one librarianship course in Ireland, and you are forced to work as a library assistant before doing it, that's pretty ****ed...

There is only one college doing it in Ireland, to the best of my knowledge.

I'm not sure you're forced to work as a library assistant, exactly, but you must have a certain level of professional experience before being admitted ... otherwise the whole thing is likely to make no sense / go over your head.

Given your comments on on-the-job training, I thought you would support that type of approach!

Look, I agree generally with you on the wastage issue, I just don't think you've picked a good example to get riled about.

Start a campaign to cut the number of TDs in half, for example, and I'm your man!


Deecom: I'm calm. I'm very calm!! ROIGHT?!! :mad:

(joking!)

Peig Sayers

Mods, can you lock this post now please? I've received the answer to my question. Thank you to all who provided links for me. Much appreciated.

passinginterest

dublindude wrote: »

Have you seen how much money civil servants earn?

€477.37 before tax this week. I'll be a millionare before I'm 30.

No. Wait. I'll be just about paying all my bills.

The high grades might get paid well. Try living on a Clerical Officer wage in Dublin.

By the way I've never seen someone miss the point so badly, having been shown up to be outrageously wrong repeatedly.

Now I'm off to finish reading this thread to see if you admit you're wrong.

nesf

Peig Sayers wrote: »

Mods, can you lock this post now please? I've received the answer to my question. Thank you to all who provided links for me. Much appreciated.

No problem.