Librarian Jobs

Unshelved

I do have a problem with tax money being spent on unnecessary things like a qualification someone should pay for themself

I'm sorry, but I don't think any of those things warrant our tax money paying them a full wage while they go off doing a full-time course for a year.

Last answer to this one, because it's getting tedious.

It's a scholarship
2-3 people per year qualify - everyone else pays for themselves, apart from those that are sponsored by their employers in the private sector (3-4 people per year)
It lasts about seven months
In most cases staff are expected to work evenings and Saturdays during this period as well as study full time
It qualifies them as Library Assistants to apply for jobs as professional Librarians

I really can't see why you're getting so annoyed by this. You obviously don't rate libraries or library staff at all. I'm not going to defend my profession any longer, but I will point out that all third level qualifications -including your own - are subsidised by the tax-payer to a greater or lesser extent.

In the meantime, the Library will always be there when you need it!

AARRRGH

Unshelved wrote: »

You obviously don't rate libraries or library staff at all.

What...

Have you even read my posts?

No private library would ever pay someone to head off for seven months to get a qualification for the job they are already doing. Why? Because it would be seen as a ridiculous waste of money.

Just because it's the Government doesn't mean it's no longer a waste of money.

I don't have a problem whatsoever with librarians or librarys.

I love education, I will (hopefully) be starting a Ph.D in about three years.

I have no problem with librarians going to college for twenty years. The issue is not education. The issue is our tax money paying someone to get an unnecessary qualification, or at least a qualification they should already have had before they got the job.

Unshelved wrote: »

I will point out that all third level qualifications -including your own - are subsidised by the tax-payer to a greater or lesser extent.

Apples and oranges.

I did not get paid a salary to do my degree.

Sangre

dublindude wrote: »

Would your employer (if it's a private company) pay your full wage as you go off getting other qualifications?

Mine will, twice actually. First time for 9 months, other for about 4. Both will be on a full wage. Starting work in September but because I'll be straight into college I won't be in the office until this time next year, hurrah!

AARRRGH

Sangre wrote: »

Mine will, twice actually. First time for 9 months, other for about 4. Both will be on a full wage. Starting work in September but because I'll be straight into college I won't be in the office until this time next year, hurrah!

Nice one. It's not my tax money, so I don't mind.

Anyway, this topic has gone enough off topic!

nesf

dublindude wrote: »

And let's be honest here, being a Librarian is hardly rocket science.

Depends on what you're doing as one. I take it from your posts that you'd be very hard pressed to actually explain or describe many of the activities that are actually undertaken in a library.

AARRRGH

nesf wrote: »

Depends on what you're doing as one. I take it from your posts that you'd be very hard pressed to actually explain or describe many of the activities that are actually undertaken in a library.

That quote looks bad out of context.

Dudess has already stated she worked for a while in a library and doesn't see what the big deal is.

I think libraries are important, for obvious reasons, but I do not think it is necessary for us (the tax payer) to have to fund a librarians further qualification (and more, we're funding the qualification AND her wage) to the extent that she can leave her job for seven months, with full pay, and return to the same job.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

Should every Government employee be allowed leave on full pay for a few months while they get further qualifications?

nesf

dublindude wrote: »

Dudess has already stated she worked for a while in a library and doesn't see what the big deal is.

Indeed. However, I worked there also and got to see what the big deal is on the back office with cataloguing, database management etc. Technology is rapidly becoming an integral part of the library and this shift is actually producing pressures for eduction and formal training in the methods of sorting information, it is actually quite interesting if you're into that kind of thing.

If you're just working at the desk, taking returns and helping people find books, yeah there isn't much to it that you couldn't pick up in a week's training. If you want to get more into the back office stuff it gets more complex. It isn't the most complicated job in the world but there's a lot more to it than a lot of the other office work I've done.

AARRRGH

nesf, I am sure there are plenty parts of the job which are tricky, and I am sure the librarianship education is useful, but is the extra qualification so necessary that they should get seven months off work, with full pay?

It seems wrong.

I'm sorry if I am offending Librarians, that really isn't my intention. You could replace Librarian with a hundred other Government jobs and I would have the same opinion.

Enii

dublindude wrote: »

Why can't the trainee Librarian get her qualification the way normal people do, i.e. pay for it herself? Is there no part-time option?

What about the male wannabe librarians? Do you expect them to pay for themselves too!!?!

Unshelved

No private library would ever pay someone to head off for seven months to get a qualification for the job they are already doing. Why? Because it would be seen as a ridiculous waste of money.

Oh God - for the LAST TIME - I have already stated TWICE that in my class in Library school there were four people who were from the private sector - three from law firms and one from accountancy firms - who were paid by their jobs to attend the class. They were on their full salary and they had their fees paid. It's common practice in the profession both in the public and in the private sector.

However, the vast majority pay their own fees.

I accept that you think it's a stupid job that any monkey could do. However, getting het up over 2-3 people getting paid to spend 7 months in college WHILE THEY WORK EVENINGS AND SATURDAYS IN THEIR LIBRARIES is really incredibly petty. Remember that these people are taxpayers too - perhaps they are paying for something that you are taking advantage of that we might think is wasteful.

nesf

dublindude wrote: »

nesf, I am sure there are plenty parts of the job which are tricky, and I am sure the librarianship education is useful, but is the extra qualification so necessary that they should get seven months off work, with full pay?

If it's any consolation the Cork people do the course part time through distance learning. The course is paid for but they don't get any time off.

The extra qualification is specifically on librarianship. You can also do it as a degree in UCD iirc. It's actually relevant to the job. As an investment, in that most people who would actually get the nod for doing it are "lifers", it's not actually a bad idea. It's not like there's a high turnover of staff or anything like that and it's not like they can disappear and go off to the private sector for more money after getting the qualification. There isn't as many potential problems involved in the investment as there is in other areas of the public service where the qualifications are actually worth a fair bit in the private sector.

It would also be useful to point out that since librarians are public servants and not civil servants, the pay isn't as good as the civil servant grades. It might be different in Dublin though.

AARRRGH

Unshelved wrote: »

I accept that you think it's a stupid job that any monkey could do.

You're not even reading my posts.

There's no point continuing this conversation.

nesf wrote: »

If it's any consolation the Cork people do the course part time through distance learning. The course is paid for but they don't get any time off.

I have absolutely no problem with that. In fact, I would support that kind of thing: working during the day and studying part-time.

nesf

dublindude wrote: »

I have absolutely no problem with that. In fact, I would support that kind of thing: working during the day and studying part-time.

Working evenings and Saturdays is also equivalent. Especially when you consider that these are far more anti-social hours to be working than a normal 9-5.

eth0_

dublindude wrote: »

.

Should every Government employee be allowed leave on full pay for a few months while they get further qualifications?

That's a ridiculous question to ask, given that unshelved said there was 2-3 people in her course that were sent there from work on full pay. Given that there are only two universities in the country which offer this course, I think it's insane to try and rationalise this with giving 'every govt employee' time off on full pay for education...!

Chinafoot

I'm a library assistant for a local authority and I started an MSc in Information and Library Studies in Aberystwyth University via distance learning. My course is paid for by my employer and I am still working full-time.

I really don't want to get into the whole "why should my taxes pay your college fees?" debate because I find it ridiculous tbh and nesf's response sums up what I think. The local authorities are helping to provide qualified staff and if you reckon it shouldn't happen because you think the job is a piece of píss, the you need to seriously educate yourself as to what is involved in the job. It's a lot more than just shelving and stamping.

To answer the OP's question, if you want to get into libraries your best bet is to keep an eye on the jobs section of the various local authorites. You should apply for library assistant positions as they don't require any experience or a degree. Fingal County Council recently advertised so it may be a while before they do so again.

It's a really good job and there are loads of different things to keep you interested, although obviously starting off you're not going to be handed all the responsibilty in the place. You'll need to build up experience first but there are definite prospects to be found in libraries. I personally get bored quite easily but I haven't with this job and I've been in it almost 2 years now.

AARRRGH

nesf wrote: »

Working evenings and Saturdays is also equivalent. Especially when you consider that these are far more anti-social hours to be working than a normal 9-5.

Unshelved only mentioned the "they still have to work" part about an hour ago.

That changes things slightly...!

Not sure why she waited so long to mention it.

eth0_ wrote: »

That's a ridiculous question to ask, given that unshelved said there was 2-3 people in her course that were sent there from work on full pay. Given that there are only two universities in the country which offer this course, I think it's insane to try and rationalise this with giving 'every govt employee' time off on full pay for education...!

OK, let me rephrase. Should 2 or 3 people in every course be Government workers, off doing a college course for seven months on a full-time wage?

AARRRGH

Chinafoot wrote: »

The local authorities are helping to provide qualified staff and if you reckon it shouldn't happen because you think the job is a piece of píss, the you need to seriously educate as to what is involved in the job.

No, god, what?!

How many times do I have to say this...

My problem is a person who is lacking a qualification is allowed go off work for seven months to do a college course while keeping their full-time wage.

If it was a private company doing this, I wouldn't give a ****, but it's the Government doing it, with our tax money.

The Librarian is already doing the job. Do you really think the extra qualification is really necessary? Could the Librarian not get on the job training or do a distance course instead?

Could she not have gotten the extra qualification before getting her job, like most non-Government workers? (Or at least, get the qualification in her own time?)

Shouldn't our Government only be spending our tax money on necessities?

nesf

dublindude wrote: »

OK, let me rephrase. Should 2 or 3 people in every course be Government workers, off doing a college course for seven months on a full-time wage?

Eh. What the **** are you on about. The vast majority of college courses are academic and not professional qualifications. You're talking rubbish.

Government workers being sent to get qualifications that they need to be good at their job is hardly a waste of fecking money. The wastage comes from overstaffing and pushing paper around etc et al, not assistant librarians being sent to get qualifications to become librarians.

AARRRGH

nesf wrote: »

Eh. What the **** are you on about. The vast majority of college courses are academic and not professional qualifications. You're talking rubbish.

Haha No... my point is if there were 2 or 3 people in your graphic design course on their Government wage, or 2 or 3 people in my Computer Science course on their Government wage, we'd be thinking:

"What the ****?"
"Why can't they do this part-time?"
"Why can't they do this via distance learning?"
"What a waste of tax payers money".

nesf wrote: »

Government workers being sent to get qualifications that they need to be good at their job is hardly a waste of fecking money. The wastage comes from overstaffing and pushing paper around etc et al, not assistant librarians being sent to get qualifications to become librarians.

Extra qualifications are great. But not full-time for seven months, with full pay!

I don't think my opinion is going to change, so maybe we should agree to disagree...

Since I'm the only one arguing my side of the battle, I will accept I am probably wrong, if that helps things.

Chinafoot

dublindude wrote: »

The Librarian is already doing the job. Do you really think the extra qualification is really necessary? Could the Librarian not get on the job training or do a distance course instead?

The Librarian? Have you read any of this thread? Without this qualification you cannot be a librarian, so yes, the qualification is really necessary. I'm a library assistant, do you think I'm "already doing the job" that someone 2 grades above me is doing? Of course not. I'm not qualified yet.

People can do it distance learning but it takes a lot longer (often 3 times as long) and often requires a number of trips to the university involved. For example I had to spend 5 nights in Aberystwyth in April. The distance learning courses also cost pretty much double that of the 7 month full-time course here.

dublindude wrote: »

Could she not have gotten the extra qualification before getting her job, like most non-Government workers?

You won't get accepted to these courses without library experience. If she's been in long enough to be chosen to be sent on the course then she more than likely has been in public libraries since she started in libraries

dublindude wrote: »

Shouldn't our Government only be spending our tax money on necessities?

So qualified staff in public positions such as libraries aren't necessary? Well sure, we may aswell just scrap the libraries altogether since you clearly don't deem them necessary. Libraries have a set budget every year and the money for staff development is factored into it.

If you were a shareholder in a private company that was spending thousands on training staff and sending them off to college would you be this indignant? Would you rather the money was kept for the shareholders? I'm guessing you wouldn't because you'd realise that having highly skilled and qualified staff allows the company to provide a better service which is in turn beneficial for you. Why should libraries be any different? You say you think the libraries are great but you don't think the powers that be should help their staff to progress and provide you, the public, with the best service possible?

dublindude wrote:

Extra qualifications are great. But not full-time for seven months, with full pay!

See this is the problem....."extra" qualifications. It's not just a few more letters to bump up the person's CV. If you do not have this qualification you are not, nor will you ever be, a librarian. Libraries need librarians and library assistants need this qualification to be librarians.

As for the "not full time...with full pay!", 7 months with full pay means the local authority get their qualified staff a lot quicker than if someone did it distance learning and still worked. It makes a lot more sense for them to try to give their staff the opportunity to get the qualification quickly as it benefits the entire library service. Fingal County Council (and I'd imagine the other local authorities do the same) send two people every year....TWO. The way you're going on you'd swear they sent them off in droves. The competition for these courses is huge and UCD is the only fulltime course available in this country at the moment. Also, do you have any idea how much money library assistants make?! I love how you refer to it as a "government wage" as if we were making the same as those at the top of the public service. Trust me, what we get is not enough to head off to college on our own steam for 7 months and still manage to pay our mortgages.


I don't expect you to change your opinion on this but I do find your attitude saddening. You'd probably be the very one to give out about the crap library service if the staff weren't qualified.

AARRRGH

I tried to kill this debate, but I have to reply to this...

Chinafoot wrote: »

Without this qualification you cannot be a librarian, so yes, the qualification is really necessary.

But is it necessary to go on a course full-time for seven months funded by the tax payer?

Chinafoot wrote: »

People can do it distance learning but it takes a lot longer (often 3 times as long) and often requires a number of trips to the university involved. For example I had to spend 5 nights in Aberystwyth in April. The distance learning courses also cost pretty much double that of the 7 month full-time course here.

You just answered my above question. No, it is not necessary.

Thank you.

Chinafoot wrote: »

So qualified staff in public positions such as libraries aren't necessary? Well sure, we may aswell just scrap the libraries altogether since you clearly don't deem them necessary.

WTF. When did I say libraries or librarians are unnecessary?

Seriously, please read what I'm saying, ok?

Chinafoot wrote: »

If you were a shareholder in a private company that was spending thousands on training staff and sending them off to college would you be this indignant? Would you rather the money was kept for the shareholders? I'm guessing you wouldn't because you'd realise that having highly skilled and qualified staff allows the company to provide a better service which is in turn beneficial for you.

Companies do not let their important staff disappear off for seven months.

They make them do an evening course, or a weekend course, or maybe the odd week here and there, but they don't send them off for seven months.

I realise a handful of companies are willing to do this, but most aren't.

Chinafoot wrote: »

Why should libraries be any different? You say you think the libraries are great but you don't think the powers that be should help their staff to progress and provide you, the public, with the best service possible?

You answered this one for me already. It's not necessary. There are distance courses available.

Chinafoot wrote: »

See this is the problem....."extra" qualifications. It's not just a few more letters to bump up the person's CV. If you do not have this qualification you are not, nor will you ever be, a librarian. Libraries need librarians and library assistants need this qualification to be librarians.

Answer me once and for all: is it possible to get a librarian qualification before getting a job in a library? Or do you have to work in a library before you can get a library qualification?

If the answer is the former, you have no argument. It is a waste of money sending people on a seven month course, with full salary, if you could simply require everyone you hire already has the qualification.

Chinafoot wrote: »

The way you're going on you'd swear they sent them off in droves. The competition for these courses is huge and UCD is the only fulltime course available in this country at the moment.

C'est la vie! I realise you work for the Government so you have a lower pain threshold than the average worker, but we all have to put up with competition for college places.

Didn't get the points, that's not my fault.

Chinafoot wrote: »

Also, do you have any idea how much money library assistants make?! Trust me, it's not enough to head off to college on our own steam for 7 months and still manage to pay our mortgages.

This is ridiculous now.

Hey - I'd love to be a surfer, but you know what, do you know how much money I make? How am I supposed to become a surfer and still manage to pay my mortgage?

The answer is, of course, you find another way to get your qualification, or you accept you cannot afford to do it. You don't expect the tax payer to foot your bill. You are not entitled to anything.

Chinafoot wrote: »

I don't expect you to change your opinion on this but I do find your attitude saddening. You'd probably be the very one to give out about the crap library service if the staff weren't qualified.

I find your "I deserve it" attitude saddening. This is the attitude which has our country paying through it's arse for its civil servants, etc.

Chinafoot

dublindude wrote: »

Seriously, please read what I'm saying, ok?

The irony of that is wonderful.

dublindude wrote: »

Answer me once and for all: is it possible to get a librarian qualification before getting a job in a library? Or do you have to work in a library before you can get a library qualification?

I answered that in my last post. Try reading it.

dublindude wrote: »

Didn't get the points, that's not my fault.

It's not about gettting the points.

dublindude wrote: »

I find your "I deserve it" attitude saddening. This is the attitude which has our country paying through it's arse for our civil servants, etc.

LOL, I think you'll find I don't have any sort of "I deserve it attitude". Instead I can see why those in charge would rather give a tiny, tiny percentage of their staff the opportunity to get the qualification in a third of the time it would take someone to do it via distance learning. It's benefits the libraries and therefore the public.

But feel free to ignore/deliberately misunderstand this post like you have done all the previous ones.

Oh and...

dublindude wrote: »

I realise you work for the Government so you have a lower pain threshold than the average worker,

Insulting me because I disagree with what you're saying? That's quite pathetic tbh and any point you were trying to make is made instantly redundant as far as I'm concerned. I've nothing else to say to you.

Some links for the OP:

Fingal County Council jobs section.
Dublin City Council jobs section
Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council
South Dublin County Council.

You should also sign up to www.publicjobs.ie and you'll get notified of relevant positions.

AARRRGH

Chinafoot wrote: »

I've nothing else to say to you.

Because you lost. Nice try though.

Let's end this debate. We'll just go on forever.

Chinafoot

dublindude wrote: »

Because you lost. Nice try though.

Nah I think you'll find it's because not only are you refusing to read what's being written but you've resorted to insulting me because of where I work. It's not worth my time when this obviously boils down to your issues with the civil service. But ya know....whatever makes you feel better :rolleyes:

And again to try and get back to the OP,

Aberystwyth University website. If you do get into libraries and decide to go the distance learning route like me, this is deemed to be the best university for Information and Library studies. Many of my co-workers have gained their qualification here.

nesf

dublindude wrote: »

Let's end this debate. We'll just go on forever.

Please don't, I'm enjoying watching your under informed rant about public sector wastage getting pieced apart slowly and you refusing to admit it.

randylonghorn

dublindude wrote: »

Because you lost.

Ah ... so there were prizes going? I was wondering why you were so determined to win the argument regardless ...

So ... what have we here?

A scheme whereby a tiny number of scholarships are available to library assistants (a fairly poorly paid job with absolutely no promotional prospects unless you have specific qualifications) who perform particularly well and seem to have the potential, interest and commitment to contribute more and at a higher level, given the opportunity, to go and get the necessary qualification.

Sounds like good human resources policy to me.

a) the employer benefits from an employee who is better trained

b) it acts as an incentive scheme for library assistants to put in the effort to impress their employers (because lord knows the wages aren't much of a carrot)

c) the employee gets an opportunity for education / training and eventual progression and satisfaction in their job, and that usually means improved productivity, or so the psychologists tell us.

And all this costs the taxpayer what? ... about the same as one TD's expenses? (it's not an expensive course, btw, relatively speaking)

And private sector companies don't fund promising employees for further training and education, both inside and outside of "normal" work hours? Of course they do ... or rather the better ones do. Hell, I know one guy who started his job straight out of college 5 years ago who has had as much spent on him in that period as would fund this scheme for a couple of years. And the reality is that in the long-term he will more than repay his employers for their investment ... they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts!


Oh, and btw, I'm not a librarian or a library assistant, and have no axe to grind. Actually, I only found this thread because you linked to it from elsewhere.

AARRRGH

Chinafoot wrote: »

Nah I think you'll find it's because not only are you refusing to read what's being written but you've resorted to insulting me because of where I work. It's not worth my time when this obviously boils down to your issues with the civil service. But ya know....whatever makes you feel better :rolleyes:

No... it's because you've realised the seven month course with full wages is unnecessary as there is a distance course you can do. Yes, the distance course takes a bit longer, but it doesn't cost the tax payer nearly as much.

I understand you don't want to have to spend a bit longer getting your qualification, but you can't always get what you want, and you should not expect (and you do expect!) the tax payer to foot the bill because of your impatience.

It's a huge problem in Ireland: people who work for the Government want to take as much as they can. I think this is wrong. If I were in charge of Library funding, I would force the staff to get their qualifications via distance learning and I would spend the few hundred thousand I'd saved on something more pressing, like better facilities or advertising the library to the local community.

Spending tax money on a course which is not necessary is not the way tax money should be spent. I know we've long lost the idea of having a trim and efficient Government, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it.

Can we end the argument? I'll accept a draw. I don't like arguing in the work forum.

AARRRGH

randylonghorn wrote: »

it's not an expensive course, btw, relatively speaking)

You've missed the bit where it is a full-time course for seven months where they get to keep their full wage.

There are alternative, cheaper courses.

It is a waste of tax payers money. End of story.

Chinafoot

dublindude wrote: »

No... it's because you've realised the seven month course with full wages is unnecessary as there is a distance course you can do. Yes, the distance course takes a bit longer, but it doesn't cost the tax payer nearly as much.

It's a tiny percentage that get sent for the 7 months. In my organisation its a maximum of 2 out of hundreds. Some years they dont send anyone. Perhaps HR would rather pay that little bit extra to have a decent supply of qualified librarians for their branches instead of waiting 3+ years for it.

dublindude wrote: »

I understand you don't want to have to spend a bit longer getting your qualification, but you can't always get what you want, and you should not expect (and you do expect!) the tax payer to foot the bill because of your impatience.

I do expect? Really? There was me thinking I had started my course via distance learning and that I'd be gaining my MSc in 3 years as opposed to 7 months. Yeah, how impatient of me. Read the posts for christ sake.

dublindude wrote: »

It's a huge problem in Ireland: people who work for the Government want to take as much as they can. I think this is wrong. If I were in charge of Library funding, I would force the staff to get their qualifications via distance learning and I would spend the few hundred thousand I'd saved on something more pressing, like better facilities or advertising the library to the local community.

Well since you clearly don't rate staff development it'd be pretty useless having better facilities without the staff to run it.

dublindude wrote: »

Spending tax money on a course which is not necessary is not the way tax money should be spent. I know we've long lost the idea of having a trim and efficient Government, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it.

Underline it all you want. It's not going to make it true.

dublindude wrote: »

Can we end the argument? I'll accept a draw. I don't like arguing in the work forum.

Like I said, you lost the argument once you started throwing insults.

AARRRGH

Chinafoot wrote: »

I do expect? Really? There was me thinking I had started my course via distance learning and that I'd be gaining my MSc in 3 years as opposed to 7 months. Yeah, how impatient of me. Read the posts for christ sake.

Whether you are doing the course or not is irrelevant, you believe you (or your colleagues) deserve it.

Chinafoot wrote: »

Well since you clearly don't rate staff development it'd be pretty useless having better facilities without the staff to run it.

Will you stop with the emotional nonsense.

Of course I rate staff development.

Again, if you read what I am typing, I think if a cheaper alternative exists, let's not pick the really really expensive option.

Doesn't that make sense?

It's not your money paying for it. It's the tax payers money.

The Government should be careful how it spends the tax payers money.

You do know we have a huge budget deficit?

The full-time course is a total luxury. There is no need for it. There is a cheaper, distance learning course.

Chinafoot wrote: »

Like I said, you lost the argument once you started throwing insults.

I never threw any insults.

If you are referring to my comment that Government workers expect more than private workers, no sane person can disagree with that.