Striking train drivers in Cork

who_ru

saw this on the cork city board. unreal.


Dublin - Cork trains and Cobh and Mallow services canceled. One driver refused to drive his train because he was asked to move a train to facilitate driver training.

Only in this pathetic little country can a small bunch of constantly disgruntled workers hold the rail network to the south to ransom.

E92

They don't know how good they have it their cushy state owned monopoly jobs with NO incentive to do better for the consumer.

They should sack the lot of drivers in Cork. This is far from the first time Cork drivers have just decided to not arse themselves into doing what us taxpayers are PAYING them to do.

Absolutely disgraceful behaviour by Cork drivers yet AGAIN:mad:!

corktina

i think you should wait for the whole story before jumping to conclusions...

Ham'nd'egger

corktina wrote: »

i think you should wait for the whole story before jumping to conclusions...

The current issue boils down to qualified drivers being expected to supervise trainee drivers on the job and some complications in relation to it.

I am only speaking for myself but I think that it is entirely reasonable to expect a fully trained and competent driver in control of 500 passengers and not a guy learning the trade; imagine the furore getting onto a bus with a learner driver at the wheel.

aliveandkicking

Hamndegger wrote: »

The current issue boils down to qualified drivers being expected to supervise trainee drivers on the job and some complications in relation to it.

I am only speaking for myself but I think that it is entirely reasonable to expect a fully trained and competent driver in control of 500 passengers and not a guy learning the trade; imagine the furore getting onto a bus with a learner driver at the wheel.

How did the guy that's a fully trained and competent driver get fully trained and competent in the first place? You can bet your life part of his training involved having an experienced driver supervising him in the cab. Now he is refusing to do the same for someone else.

Anyway these trainee drivers will have been training on non passenger locomotives for months before being let anywhere near a passenger train.

fitzyshea

The guys over on rail users Ireland reckon full strike coming up! All services likely to be cancelled tomorrow!

KC61

fitzyshea wrote: »

The guys over on rail users Ireland reckon full strike coming up! All services likely to be cancelled tomorrow!

I would be extremely cautious of such claims.

At the moment there is a local dispute in Cork and a nationwide work to rule, the latter of which has been ongoing for the past few months. Whether the local dispute escalates into a national one remains to be seen, but I would be surprised if it were to spread that quickly.

I have to say that I think it somewhat folly for a group who are not a party to the dispute to be making predictions with such certainty. We shall wait and see.

Ham'nd'egger

aliveandkicking wrote: »

How did the guy that's a fully trained and competent driver get fully trained and competent in the first place? You can bet your life part of his training involved having an experienced driver supervising him in the cab. Now he is refusing to do the same for someone else.

Anyway these trainee drivers will have been training on non passenger locomotives for months before being let anywhere near a passenger train.

By being trained properly using qualified instructors with decades more experience than them and not drivers who are unqualified to instruct. Not too long ago, drivers didn't get near an engine until 3 months into their training; today they are asked to bring an engine to and from Cork at that stage. Some on the job training was used but only towards the end of their courses when there is a higher level of competence obtained.

Under these circumstances, there is an accident waiting to happen.

superhooper

Hamndegger wrote: »

By being trained properly using qualified instructors with decades more experience than them and not drivers who are unqualified to instruct. Not too long ago, drivers didn't get near an engine until 3 months into their training; today they are asked to bring an engine to and from Cork at that stage. Some on the job training was used but only towards the end of their courses when there is a higher level of competence obtained.

Under these circumstances, there is an accident waiting to happen.

Seems incredible that they are being trained in by regular drivers rather than instructors!
What determines the length of time it takes to train a driver?

mikemac

There are many petty stupid and petty reasons to strike and Irish Rail and Bus Eireann have basically pulled all of them by now.
I still don't believe bus drivers in Limerick went on strike in 2004 because the roster was printed instead of hand-written. RTE reported but surely they can't be that ridiculous?

From this thread it seems to be a Health & Safety issue so let's not bash the unions yet. It's the most important issue of all.
I see many Dublin Bus driving going around under instruction and I don't know how Irish Rail operate but I hope they aren't skimping on training.

If I was a driver and wasn't given adequate training but ordered to drive a route I couldn't do then I'd refuse too.
But if it's a case of just looking for more money to do their job then sack the bastard!


WTF? Bastard isn't filtered on boards?

fitzyshea

superhooper wrote: »

Seems incredible that they are being trained in by regular drivers rather than instructors!
What determines the length of time it takes to train a driver?

It takes a year to train in new drivers.

Ham'nd'egger

fitzyshea wrote: »

It takes a year to train in new drivers.

It used to take 80 weeks to be fully trained just 20 years ago with applicants already certified as train guards eligible to apply. Today it is 48 weeks with the emphasis placed into on the job training as opposed to supervised training after long theory work; this time even now is being looked at for shaving.

Victor

micmclo wrote: »

But if it's a case of just looking for more money

I've heard many issues mentioned in the dispute and money hasn't been one.

mikemac

Don't take one sentance from my post and take it out of context Victor.
I clearly stated it may be a Health & Safety issue while other posters are calling for mass sackings

I was being balanced and reasonable in this debate even if it's tempting not to be

aliveandkicking

Hamndegger wrote: »

It used to take 80 weeks to be fully trained just 20 years ago with applicants already certified as train guards eligible to apply. Today it is 48 weeks with the emphasis placed into on the job training as opposed to supervised training after long theory work; this time even now is being looked at for shaving.

48 weeks training compares well with international best practice of training train drivers. Just because in IE it took 80 weeks 20 years ago doesn't mean it was the best way back then.

Ham'nd'egger

aliveandkicking wrote: »

48 weeks training compares well with international best practice of training train drivers. Just because in IE it took 80 weeks 20 years ago doesn't mean it was the best way back then.

True; there is elements that have been dispensed with over the years so the times will come down naturally. Work is they want it down even longer; 26 is what they want to achieve.

aliveandkicking

Hamndegger wrote: »

True; there is elements that have been dispensed with over the years so the times will come down naturally. Work is they want it down even longer; 26 is what they want to achieve.

26 would certainly be insufficient especially if that includes route training aswell.

covert

Hamndegger wrote: »

The current issue boils down to qualified drivers being expected to supervise trainee drivers on the job and some complications in relation to it.

I am only speaking for myself but I think that it is entirely reasonable to expect a fully trained and competent driver in control of 500 passengers and not a guy learning the trade; imagine the furore getting onto a bus with a learner driver at the wheel.

This is bullsh1t. A caricature trade union guy from Cork was on the Last Word yesterday evening, and even he said the train the driver was told to drive was for training purposes, i.e. no passengers on board, just trainees observing a qualified guy driving.

Yoda

I got to Westport station at 06:45 and I (and many others) were turned away. The driver did not turn up for the 07:00 train. I asked the CIÉ representative if this were related to the Cork action. He said yes. I asked if the mid-day or evening trains would be running. He said he had no idea.

I am well and truly annoyed.

Yoda

KC61 wrote: »

Whether the local dispute escalates into a national one remains to be seen, but I would be surprised if it were to spread that quickly.

I have to say that I think it somewhat folly for a group who are not a party to the dispute to be making predictions with such certainty. We shall wait and see.

We didn't have to wait long.

corktina

possibly the issue is that training should be an Instructers job and driving a drivers job....perhaps this driver felt that he couldnt safely drive the train whilst training someone else..

..dont under-estimate the job a train driver does, there is a LOT resting on his shoulders and a moments distraction can be fatal. Maybe he felt that he himself had insufficent training to drive the unit.(I assume the trian in question is one of the new Inter City units....?)

KC61

Yoda wrote: »

We didn't have to wait long.

Unfortunately there are more cancellations, but all Dublin, Sligo, Limerick, Waterford and Rosslare based duties, along with DART and Commuter services in the Dublin area are still running.

That was not what was implied last night on that board.

KC61

The particular issue yesterday was that a driver who was rostered to be based in Cork yesterday as a pilot locomotive driver, i.e. a driver who will be available to shunt rolling stock around the station as required, was then asked to instead to take another train out of Cork for the purposes of driver training. In other words, he would drive a train to another location and return (say Mallow or Charleville) while some trainee drivers would observe how he drove the train.

This is standard practice, and (as I understand it) part of a driver's normal duties. It had nothing to do with new trains, but was for the purposes of new trainee drivers observing a fully trained driver at work. The train in question would have been out of service, with no passengers on board.

What happened was that the driver said that he was rostered as the pilot locomotive driver and nothing else and as such refused to drive the other train.

This boils back to the current work-to-rule which relates to the ongoing talks over the wider issue of drivers' working conditions (in which there are valid arguments on both sides).

However, I would have to say that this particular action is an escalation too far, in that it is the duty of management to decide what tasks an employee does in the course of his day, within his/her working hours and his/her terms of employment, not an employee. Basically the driver decided yesterday that he was employed to drive one particular locomotive and nothing else.

There needs to be a cooling down period and some serious talking done to resolve this dispute, as with summer holidays approaching there will be fewer and fewer drivers available to cover annual leave, and more cancellations will follow.

Yoda

KC61 wrote: »

What happened was that the driver said that he was rostered as the pilot locomotive driver and nothing else and as such refused to drive the other train. [...]
Basically the driver decided yesterday that he was employed to drive one particular locomotive and nothing else.

And the Westport line drivers decided that he was right? :eek:

PRND

I bet Aircoach are rubbing their hands with glee. Why would people continue to take the train if they can't rely on it. This reminds me of the UK's car industry strikes. At a time when they should have been trying to be as profitable as possible in the face of competition they went on endless strikes with little public support. The outcome? The largest British owned car manufacturer is the London Taxi maker LTi.

KC61

Yoda wrote: »

And the Westport line drivers decided that he was right? :eek:

The driver in question was suspended by management after refusing to drive the train and other drivers in Cork, Tralee, Galway, Athlone and Westport have now walked out in sympathy.

As I say both sides need to calm the situation down, and get some serious talking and knocking of heads done to resolve the immediate and underlying issues.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

ixoy

KC61 wrote: »

The driver in question was suspended by management after refusing to drive the train and other drivers in Cork, Tralee, Galway, Athlone and Westport have now walked out in sympathy.

Sympathy? Sympathy for what - that he was disciplined for not doing his job? Absolute farce.

What by the way are the drivers looking for in their "work to rule" stance - will more money suddenly make them more accomodating? Or would they be happy to have their same wage and extra staff brought in?

KC61

ixoy wrote: »

Sympathy? Sympathy for what - that he was disciplined for not doing his job? Absolute farce.

What by the way are the drivers looking for in their "work to rule" stance - will more money suddenly make them more accomodating? Or would they be happy to have their same wage and extra staff brought in?

The work to rule has nothing to do with money. It is (as I understand it) to do with working conditions, such as working hours, and other safety related issues. The negotiations have been ongoing since 2007 and the drivers feel that nothing is progressing with them, hence the introduction of a work to rule.

Yesterday's action, while related, is to say the least ill-advised, and to be honest amounts almost to anarchy on the part of the driver, as it effectively boils down to an employee dictating to management how he will do his job.

seamus

Trade Union guy on NewsTalk this morning trying to fluff his way through it. The driver in question has a standard "other duties as required" clause in his contract. The union guy tried to say, "Down in Cork this is understood to mean 'emergencies only'". Since when did "as required" ever mean, "emergencies only"?

Typical state union people - absolutely no idea what it is to do a normal job, and any excuse to strike and sit on their lazy arses at full pay.

The state should pay another country's rail service money to train in 100 drivers, then hire them into Ireland a six-month contract. When the union drivers strike, give them two options - get back to work or **** off.

ixoy

KC61 wrote: »

The work to rule has nothing to do with money. It is (as I understand it) to do with working conditions, such as working hours, and other safety related issues. The negotiations have been ongoing since 2007 and the drivers feel that nothing is progressing with them, hence the introduction of a work to rule.

So they need more people then to work the hours right? It's the only possible answer (other than cut down the timetable). So that would involve training new people in to work the hours they don't feel safe working? Well refusing to help train in those new drivers isn't going to help that issue...

fitzyshea

KC61 wrote: »

Unfortunately there are more cancellations, but all Dublin, Sligo, Limerick, Waterford and Rosslare based duties, along with DART and Commuter services in the Dublin area are still running.

That was not what was implied last night on that board.

Carlow trains running this morning but for how long? Anyone think they will also be cancelled?

Colonel Sanders

Out of interest if drivers take unofficial strike action are they still paid?

Ste.phen

I really hope not, but i fear they might be

Ham'nd'egger

covert wrote: »

This is bullsh1t. A caricature trade union guy from Cork was on the Last Word yesterday evening, and even he said the train the driver was told to drive was for training purposes, i.e. no passengers on board, just trainees observing a qualified guy driving.

Covert, the "on the job" training is currently going on even if in this case the train was not in service on this occasion.

Stark

"Covert" is in getting the trainee to shadow someone during normal duties?

MOH

Stark wrote: »

"Covert" is in getting the trainee to shadow someone during normal duties?

Think he was actually addressing Covert in his reply?

Ham'nd'egger

MOH wrote: »

Think he was actually addressing Covert in his reply?

That will be it, MOH; by name not nature

fitzyshea

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Out of interest if drivers take unofficial strike action are they still paid?

Dont think so as they have been taken off the payroll since yesterday

Stark

MOH wrote: »

Think he was actually addressing Covert in his reply?

Ah I see. Totally missed the comma, I'm not with it at all day.

Now for the obligatory "Thank you for logging in Bossarky" remark

popebenny16

KC61 wrote: »

Unfortunately there are more cancellations, but all Dublin, Sligo, Limerick, Waterford and Rosslare based duties, along with DART and Commuter services in the Dublin area are still running.

That was not what was implied last night on that board.

true, but we can only go by what we are told, which is better than nothing, and at that time that was what we heard.

If you want to have a forensic look at our board you'll see that we've been ahead of IE since December in advising on cancelations/disruptions due to this dispute.

In fact it came very very close to the core walking out yesterday. We are most certainly not in the business of scaremongering, we've known for months this was going to happen, as a matter of fact it almost happened on April. We also have heard lots of alarming and silly stuff, but we've filtered that out to prevent scaremongering. Hey, we're fallible, who isnt?

At the end of the day the only people who matter are the passengers. We have no truck (bad pun I suppose but I'm under pressure) with either side. This can be sorted fairly quickly if there is a willingness to do so.

This is a stupid time for this preventable dispute. In a years time there'll be a motorway form Cork to Dublin Airport. All those Munster fans (for example) who want to get to Cardiff and have been stranded by this today will remember and wont take a chance again.

Problem is, if passengers vote with their feet will anyone on either side be affected by it?

Where is the incentive to prevent this happening again?

KC61

popebenny16 wrote: »

true, but we can only go by what we are told, which is better than nothing, and at that time that was what we heard.

If you want to have a forensic look at our board you'll see that we've been ahead of IE since December in advising on cancelations/disruptions due to this dispute.

In fact it came very very close to the core walking out yesterday. We are most certainly not in the business of scaremongering, we've known for months this was going to happen, as a matter of fact it almost happened on April. We also have heard lots of alarming and silly stuff, but we've filtered that out to prevent scaremongering. Hey, we're fallible, who isnt?

At the end of the day the only people who matter are the passengers. We have no truck (bad pun I suppose but I'm under pressure) with either side. This can be sorted fairly quickly if there is a willingness to do so.

This is a stupid time for this preventable dispute. In a years time there'll be a motorway form Cork to Dublin Airport. All those Munster fans (for example) who want to get to Cardiff and have been stranded by this today will remember and wont take a chance again.

Problem is, if passengers vote with their feet will anyone on either side be affected by it?

Where is the incentive to prevent this happening again?

Indeed, I don't disagree with you on the fact that the passengers are the only ones that are losing here.

I just tend to be of the opinion that caution tends to be safer in making predictions about what service will run or not than predicting without certainty, particularly when it would appear that the information is coming from one party to the dispute (I can only assume that it is coming from employees of the company?).

While there is a need to keep people informed, predictions such as that last night, that no trains would run out of Heuston or DART would not operate could potentially inflame an otherwise difficult situation for both sides to the dispute. It also led to a post earlier in this thread that stated: "The guys over on rail users Ireland reckon full strike coming up! All services likely to be cancelled tomorrow!" It's this kind of reaction that a group such as RUI needs to be very careful that they don't cause. I just think that you need to be very cautious in your phraseology. There was a risk that more services could indeed be cancelled, but that does not equate to "All services Heuston likely to cancelled".

I know that this is symantics, but when it comes to industrial disputes it is they tend to be very important.

However, returning to the dispute, I agree that the sooner the core issues get resolved, the better. Some calm level-headedness is needed on all sides. This has the potential to do the railway irreparable damage, at a time when the remaining damage done by the ILDA dispute some years ago to the passenger traffic is just being reversed. That is something that is in no ones' interest be they the company, employees or the passenger.

Marksie

I already have to drive to Kildare from portlaoise to get a train to celbridge (dont ask another long story to do with commuter trains hopping stations). But I waited for the galway train this am, and waited, and waited.
No announcements so i went to the station office and he was merrily working away texting on his phone..

When i asked, it was a case of "oh erm yes, its cancelled."

Its endemic throughout Irish rail, but having had dealings with the managers its easy to understand why. Make them accountable and it will all filter down.

Edit: i suppose there is a bright side. The commuter trains will be running on time on that line now as in my experience thr prioritisation of the cork intercity service is the major cause of commuter train delays in the mornings.

Snickers Man

Do we really need drivers?

At a time when the US Air Force is planning to phase out manned bomber planes over the next 10-20 years, and remember here that we are talking about something that flies at supersonic speeds, has no rails to guide it, and can operate highly complex defensive and offensive electronic weapons systems, can it really be all that difficult to build a computer program that will shunt a train along a set of rails, react automatically to signals telling it how fast to go and where to slow down and stop?

I am flabbergasted that it takes 48 weeks to train a driver. If you convert that into the number of weeks comprising a typical university term that's equivalent to two full years at university. Does it really take half the time it takes to become a biochemist or nuclear physicist to train somebody to shunt along a diesel-powered vehicle constrained by rails and (in this country anyway) hardly bothered at all by major junctions and attendant traffic congestion?

Either drivers are incredibly dim or, much more likely and more insultingly, they think everybody else is.

They should go the way of the bow and arrow. And for the same reason. Too much trouble, much cheaper alternatives.

Marksie

Like what? To say the americans are phasing out manned bombers is a non comparison: The irish rail rollingstock is teh equivalent of the wright brothers...or teh marx brothers lol

Nostradamus

Nothing to worry about lads. The strike deadlock will be overcome by IRN management who have declared that if the 6 British trainspotters on their message board and 2 Irish ones behave themselves, the striking drivers will go back to work.

irishrailwaynews

Folks, please try to keep your discussion of this as dispassionate as possible, without resorting to emotional language. None of that will help in any way to resolve this dispute.

Feel free to discuss it, but please try to avoid emotional outbursts that could potentially make the situation worse.

This follows on form the highly successful IRN Railfreight Revival Policy.

Hope is at hand.

E92

Next we'll have drivers going on strike because IR ONLY gave them a 59 mins break rather than a 60 min one.

Or because a train driver had to walk an extra 10 yards to the train than he should have, so therefore train wasn't parked(or whatever it's called in train language) in the right place and therefore the driver is doing something outside his duties:eek::rolleyes:.

If Brian Cowen is as serious about public sector reform as he says he is, then Cork train drivers is as good a place as anywhere to start, and for the country's, and 99% of the population's sake, he needs to deal with any slackers in the public services who have no interest in any one other than themselves and can hold the country to ransom in the same way he has dealt with internal party discipline in Fianna Fáil, and he needs to do it fast.

ixoy

Wow it's truly everywhere today - even Irish Rail's bridges are on strike

corktina

ah yes IRN... I used to viist there before they made it impossible to fathom out how to use it....

Civilian_Target

Hamndegger wrote: »

It used to take 80 weeks to be fully trained just 20 years ago with applicants already certified as train guards eligible to apply. Today it is 48 weeks with the emphasis placed into on the job training as opposed to supervised training after long theory work; this time even now is being looked at for shaving.

Trains drive themselves more and more these days, plus there are probably less locomotive types... remember that some day in the not-too-distant future, trains will drive themselves

Like has already been said, Nuclear Physicists are trained from secondary school in 160 weeks, 1/3rd of that to drive a train along some rails and stop at the red light seems excessive....

corktina

it is nowhere near as simple as that ...you never will have automatic driverless trains as there are way too many things that can go wrong that a machine will not pick up.....driving a train is a highly skilled job and there are actually more types to deal with now than there were a few years ago....