Striking train drivers in Cork

DWCommuter

Nostradamus wrote: »

Nothing to worry about lads. The strike deadlock will be overcome by IRN management who have declared that if the 6 British trainspotters on their message board and 2 Irish ones behave themselves, the striking drivers will go back to work.



This follows on form the highly successful IRN Railfreight Revival Policy.

Hope is at hand.

Holy **** man!

Did that quote actually come from IRN? Do they really think that their forum is relevent in this dispute? No forum will have any influence. I could call IE management and every train driver in the place a total and absolute b****x with a preponderance to suspect sexual activities and it still wouldn't have any bearing or influence.

I havent been by IRN in a long long time, but its really sad to see that the state of mind of its operators is still very much in the land of Oz. What is it with railways? It makes decent enough people go dysfunctional. Glad I got out of it.:D

rmacm

corktina wrote: »

it is nowhere near as simple as that ...you never will have automatic driverless trains as there are way too many things that can go wrong that a machine will not pick up.....driving a train is a highly skilled job and there are actually more types to deal with now than there were a few years ago....

Oh really?

Driver less Metro in Lille:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lille_Metro

The London DLR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docklands_Light_Railway

Before you go and make the obvious point that neither of these are intercity rail systems the concept is still the same, there's a vehicle moving along tracks strangely enough not requiring a driver in these cases. So what do you think could go wrong that a machine/computer wouldn't pick up? You'd be surprised at what can be done these days.

Yoda

Not, I think, with level crossings. If there were two tracks in either direction and no level crossings... well, that would be different.

gary01

Does anyone know if the Heuston-Galway-Heuston train is running tomorrow and Sunday ? I looked on irishrail.ie at the timetables and the "All seats taken" red icon is beside a lot of the trains. But according to the update, it looks like it's mostly cork trains canceled tomorrow. Does anyone know anything about this because I can't get any info from any train station I call

SeanW

DWCommuter wrote: »

Holy **** man!

Did that quote actually come from IRN?

Yes.

I was hoping that when IRN moved from its MSN group to its new home, that it would have matured somewhat. But when I found out that added the term "Platform11" to the profanity filter, I realised it was just the same old delusional gricers with a fancier looking homepage.

corktina

rmacm wrote: »

Oh really?

Driver less Metro in Lille:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lille_Metro

The London DLR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docklands_Light_Railway

Before you go and make the obvious point that neither of these are intercity rail systems the concept is still the same, there's a vehicle moving along tracks strangely enough not requiring a driver in these cases. So what do you think could go wrong that a machine/computer wouldn't pick up? You'd be surprised at what can be done these days.

Sheep on the line?

Ham'nd'egger

rmacm wrote: »

Oh really?

Driver less Metro in Lille:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lille_Metro

The London DLR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docklands_Light_Railway

Before you go and make the obvious point that neither of these are intercity rail systems the concept is still the same, there's a vehicle moving along tracks strangely enough not requiring a driver in these cases. So what do you think could go wrong that a machine/computer wouldn't pick up? You'd be surprised at what can be done these days.

DART is capable of being controlled without a driver but Irish Rail opted for driver controlled trains. To some extent, CAWS can do a lot of the work for drivers here were it chosen to be set up to do so. London Underground trains are almost auto driven as well; the driver being able to override or manually control if and when needed. The problem with driver less trains kicks in when any signaling or system faults take place; there still needs to be a trained person to deal with emergencies and problems in service and this is where a drivers long training comes in. Even something such as railway signals are not that easy followed and takes some time to be trained into understanding as such

rmacm

corktina wrote: »

Sheep on the line?

You can get cars now that have systems built in that can detect obstacles ahead of them. I'd imagine something similar could be used on trains if it's not already in use somewhere in the world. of course this wouldn't be a whole lot of use if an obstacle e.g. sheep happened to be around a bend in the track.

Hamndegger wrote: »

The problem with driver less trains kicks in when any signaling or system faults take place; there still needs to be a trained person to deal with emergencies and problems in service and this is where a drivers long training comes in. Even something such as railway signals are not that easy followed and takes some time to be trained into understanding as such

I've just been reading about rail signals, it looks pretty complex alright. I agree that in the case of signaling faults human intervention would be required. I was just interested in corktinas statement that "you never will have automatic driverless trains" when places do have them albeit not intercity services. It just seemed like a rather blanket statement to make.

corktina

well yes Railway systems are way different to say road usage....

I dont claim to be an expert in any way (but I do know a bit alright) but there are two factors here.. safety and public concern at doing 100 mph with noone at the front....isolated systems like the docklands etc arent really mainstream railways and I doubt that a machine or a computer will ever be able to operate a train as safely as a highly trained Human...dont forget that these systems arent really driverless....remote control would be a better description.Can a machine see a couple of Chavs on a bridge (ready to drop a concrete block off) as quickly as a Driver....I doubt it and trains cover a lot of ground in a few seconds and need a loooong stopping distance...

I recomend "Red for Danger" by Len Rolt if you are interested in railway safety...not a gory sensational description of train accidents but a technical assesment of what can go wrong and what is dont to prevent it...

rmacm

corktina wrote: »

isolated systems like the docklands etc arent really mainstream railways and I doubt that a machine or a computer will ever be able to operate a train as safely as a highly trained Human...dont forget that these systems arent really driverless....remote control would be a better description.Can a machine see a couple of Chavs on a bridge (ready to drop a concrete block off) as quickly as a Driver....I doubt it and trains cover a lot of ground in a few seconds and need a loooong stopping distance...

The DLR an isolated non mainstream system? I think not, it moves >100,000 people per day in London and interconnects with the London Underground. I agree that there are situations where human intervention and supervision is required but my point still stands that there are numerous metros/rail systems operating in an automated driverless way or a highly automated way with some human supervision.

corktina wrote: »

I recomend "Red for Danger" by Len Rolt if you are interested in railway safety...not a gory sensational description of train accidents but a technical assesment of what can go wrong and what is dont to prevent it...

I'll give a look out for it granted railway safety isn't something that I think about on a daily basis.

corktina

its isolated in that it only caries one particular form of traffic over a predictable route....ideal for automated stopping and starting. It would not be advisable to do this with the dart (imho) because of the possibilty of the control system confusing a Main Line train with a Dart and issuing inapproriate instructions.

The main principle of Rail Safety if "failsafe". In stark contrast to Road Traffic (where if a Trucks brakes fail or its driver is unconscious it will career on until something stops it by getting in its way), a Train has various devices to stop it automatically in the case of an emergency.

The Black Oil

6:15 to Drogheda was cancelled.:mad:

bk

IMO Those who say that IC trains will never be automated are fairly short sighted.

Objects on the track, like sheep, etc, could easily be identified by radar and Infra red cameras and would in fact be more reliable then a human being, due to a human looking away, being tired, distracted, micro sleep and tunnel vision, etc.

If folks can drive driverless cars across a desert:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_Grand_Challenge

and are now looking to do the same for urban areas, it is only a matter of time before the same happens for rail (which would seem to be much easier).

Sure, it won't happen tomorrow, it will happen gradually, it will start with greater automation and such radar and infrared systems "assisting" drivers, letting them know when something is ahead on the track, after a while maybe even autobraking the train, etc.

Think about this, look at how far we have come in 100 years, we have gone from the first flight by a human in a little timber plane to people thinking nothing of hoping on a plane to head to New York for a weekend shopping spree. Computer technology and automation are advancing at an incredible rate.

Are you seriously telling me that 100 years from now we won't be able to automate IC trains?

IMO it will start happening elsewhere in the world in the next 10 years and it will hit Ireland in under 50 years.

Victor

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0525/rail.html

Train drivers to return to work tomorrow
Sunday, 25 May 2008 14:38

Train drivers in Cork, who have been staging unofficial industrial action since Thursday, say they will return to work tomorrow.

The decision follows a meeting of the drivers earlier today, at which they considered their position in relation to the action.

Following the meeting, the drivers issued a statement which reiterates support for their colleague who was removed from the payroll last Thursday for refusing to facilitate training by driving a different train.

In the statement, the drivers accuse the company of acting arbitrarily and of not invoking agreed company trade union procedures.

They also claim the company's approach was 'premeditated and designed to cause a dispute'.

But the drivers say that they have decided to return to work on the basis that continuing with their action would only serve to further discommode the travelling public.

They also say that on their return to work tomorrow, they will work in accordance with current agreements, including the agreed flexibilities proposed by the Labour Relations Commission in March.

17 Intercity train services cancelled

Meanwhile disruption is continuing on Dublin-Cork, Dublin-Kerry and Cork regional train services as a result of unofficial work stoppages.

17 Intercity services, along with all services between Cork and Cobh, Cork and Mallow and Cork and Tralee have been cancelled today.

A limited service involving bus transfers is operating on the Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Tralee Intercity routes.

Full details are available on the Iarnród Éireann website.

aliveandkicking

Victor wrote: »

They also say that on their return to work tomorrow, they will work in accordance with current agreements, including the agreed flexibilities proposed by the Labour Relations Commission in March.

So the drivers have backed down then. The unions must have told them they hadn't a leg to stand on.

Since this was unofficial..
Not giving 2 week notice (not sure about this so I stand corrected).

Can Irish rail sue the drivers for loss off earnings?

ixoy

NoDrama wrote: »

Can Irish rail sue the drivers for loss off earnings?

Even if they could, can you imagine what would happen next? No trains anywhere.

Does anyone think these drivers had even the slightest validity in their actions (or even in their grievance)?

The Black Oil

They're at it again.

Run_to_da_hills

I think this is rediculous, these guys all have a cushy number, they all got brand spanking new state of the art trains are still bit*hing while many of us are being layed off. Their ancesters had to do some real "work" i.e. shoveling coal.

pburns

I work in the public sector and our contract includes the line...
'...to carry out other such duties as assigned'

In other word we can be asked to perform any duty asked of us outside our designated roles. As I understand it this is standard practice and is included in the IR contracts. They really haven't a leg to stand on...

I suspect the real motive is to put up any road-blocks they can to new train drivers being recruited because they are bitter at not being able to earn CEO-level salaries through overtime (?)

Stark

Iarnród Éireann spokesman Barry Kenny said that drivers would not sign a document this morning, making a commitment to work to the full terms of existing agreements.

However, the Assistant General Secretary of the National Bus and Railworkers' Union, Dermot O'Leary, accused Iarnród Éireann of using the document to try to intimidate the train drivers.

FFS :mad:

penexpers

I think the drivers are right not to sign this document - as has been pointed out the striking drivers in Galway were not asked to sign this document on returning to work.

sideshowsue

Meanwhile, we who live in Cobh and depend on the commuter service to get into Cork are left stranded with no other means of getting off the island other than hitching, taxi or organizing carpools. At this point, I really don't care who's to blame--I think the drivers are being petty and management are ignorant and inconsiderate of those who need a dependable commuter service to get in and out of Cork every day. Pointing the finger of blame isn't making it any easier (or less costly) to travel what should be an easy 20KM.

ixoy

penexpers wrote: »

I think the drivers are right not to sign this document - as has been pointed out the striking drivers in Galway were not asked to sign this document on returning to work.

As has also been pointed out - they've already agreed, by contract, to occassionally have to do different types of work. They're not doing this so their dispute is groundless. The only thing that should be signed for these wasters is their letters of resignation.

FlutterinBantam

Until someone is hit in the pocket for breaking agreed procedures this crap will continue.

Only losers so far are the taxpayer(you and me) and the Cork and Kerry rail users.

This will be over this evening.

zero19

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

This will be over this evening.

Certainly hope so...

Ham'nd'egger

ixoy wrote: »

As has also been pointed out - they've already agreed, by contract, to occassionally have to do different types of work. They're not doing this so their dispute is groundless. The only thing that should be signed for these wasters is their letters of resignation.

As you cast your aspersions on the drivers who didn't sign these "letters", I take it that you know what the content and wording of the letters are and can share it with us here.

loyatemu

why are they being asked to sign letters? "making a commitment to work to the full terms of existing agreements." surely they've already signed contracts that say the same things?

Industrial relations in Irish Rail seems to be a shambles with both sides constantly trying to score points off the other with no regard for their customers. Scrap the entire company, sack the management, and subcontract it out - the drivers can be re-employed on standard international contracts shorn of the existing 150 years of accrued practises and understandings.

</thatcher>

Beta Ray Bill

If Irish Rail was ever sold off and run privatly all of the drivers participating in this farce would be sacked.

I dont know how they get away with it.

it's such a mess

trellheim

Sign and say "I sign under duress"

jasonbourme.cs

I've been commuting ( same route / trains ) for about 10 years and i cant remember a time when the transport service here has been worse

like someone said earlier its astounding how they get away with it !
must be nice to work for a company where if you don't like some aspect of your job you can take 4 days off and have a whinge about it :mad:

and the the result ? the people who are paying for the service are the ones suffering

serfboard

grahambo wrote: »

If Irish Rail was ever sold off and run privatly all of the drivers participating in this farce would be sacked.

I dont know how they get away with it.

it's such a mess

Yes, yes ... privatisation is the answer to everything ... :rolleyes:

I remember being on trains years ago in England and the passengers bitched and whinged about British Rail. Then the tories privatised it and now they all whinge and bitch about Virgin Trains/GNER/Connex etc. etc. Plus ca change ...

Beta Ray Bill

serfboard wrote: »

Yes, yes ... privatisation is the answer to everything ... :rolleyes:

I remember being on trains years ago in England and the passengers bitched and whinged about British Rail. Then the tories privatised it and now they all whinge and bitch about Virgin Trains/GNER/Connex etc. etc. Plus ca change ...

I take your point and you are 100% correct about it being a mess over there, but.... their system is a lot more complex than ours

if they sold the whole lot off to just one company then i think we would see an improvement.

but that begs the question... who in their right mind would want to buy Irish Rail LOL

ixoy

Hamndegger wrote: »

As you cast your aspersions on the drivers who didn't sign these "letters", I take it that you know what the content and wording of the letters are and can share it with us here.

We can only go on with what we're told - that the letters were to prohibit further striking while these talks went ahead. I think that's perfectly reasonable unless I hear otherwise.

Do you yourself believe they have any justifiable grounds for their actions rather than going through the normal processes? And do you believe the grievance is valid - any job I'm aware of requires flexibility.

penexpers

ixoy wrote: »

As has also been pointed out - they've already agreed, by contract, to occassionally have to do different types of work. They're not doing this so their dispute is groundless. The only thing that should be signed for these wasters is their letters of resignation.

How would you feel if your employer demanded that you sign an agreement that no-one else in the company had to sign?

malpas

regarding the length of time to train a driver..can someone explain how complicated it actually is to drive a train from A to B. There is no conflicting traffic, pre-determined stops, no steering involved...yes speed limits must be watched on certain sections, engine systems monitored, various signals obeyed and the driver must be able to stop and start off again. Contrast this with a car, bus or truck driver's task with the myriad of tasks he/she must perform and the dangers on the road today? I do appreciate that trains carry much more passengers but on the face of it, driving a train seems much easier and less complicated? Maybe I'm wrong and I would welcome any expert comments/enlightment.

ixoy

penexpers wrote: »

How would you feel if your employer demanded that you sign an agreement that no-one else in the company had to sign?

Fine if my previous actions demonstrated an inability to engage professionally in my job.

MOH

penexpers wrote: »

How would you feel if your employer demanded that you sign an agreement that no-one else in the company had to sign?

Well, if I'd just refused to do something that was in my existing contract, I could see why they'd want me to commit to following it in future.

Stark

penexpers wrote: »

How would you feel if your employer demanded that you sign an agreement that no-one else in the company had to sign?

It's the norm if you receive a written warning that you sign something to acknowledge the warning. Also, it's not like one driver was singled out here.

penexpers

Stark wrote: »

It's the norm if you receive a written warning that you sign something to acknowledge the warning. Also, it's not like one driver was singled out here.

What did the document this morning say?

It wasn't one driver, but it was one group of drivers. The drivers from Galway were not asked to sign the same document on returning to work.

prendy

reading this thread i cant believe ANYONE would actually side with the drivers. Its bad enough stopping half the trains in the country because one lad wouldnt do his job.

And yes i realise it mightnt be exactly his job but if for example in my office the printer was out of paper and we didnt fill it, do you think management would have us working there? Not a chance!
If it was private sector not one of those people would have had a job this morning, how can any company jutify putting up with that crap?

Do they get paid for the last few days? Knowing IR they might get a nice bonus for coming to work today!

penexpers

If they are on strike, they are not paid. SIPTU probably have a strike fund though so the drivers might be getting something out of that.

Nostradamus

prendy wrote: »

reading this thread i cant believe ANYONE would actually side with the drivers.

Stick around so - the embedded CIE union types on this board will be back out of hiding to remind us all how oppressed and sainted they are as soon as the strike blows over.

Funny, they always seem to vanish when something like this is going on...


On a side note, is it just me or is there something funny about the strike in Cork taking place the morning after the Man U Champions league match? The timing was rather odd I thought. Or very useful if you were in bits from the gargle the night before or better still if you were still in Moscow and needed some extra time to get back.

Ste.phen

penexpers wrote: »

If they are on strike, they are not paid. SIPTU probably have a strike fund though so the drivers might be getting something out of that.

That would (should) only apply in the case where the strike was union-mandated.

If the union were being especially responsible, they'd berate the wildcat strikers for endangering the jobs and reputation of the rest of the drivers.

shoegirl

popebenny16 wrote: »

This is a stupid time for this preventable dispute. In a years time there'll be a motorway form Cork to Dublin Airport. All those Munster fans (for example) who want to get to Cardiff and have been stranded by this today will remember and wont take a chance again.

Problem is, if passengers vote with their feet will anyone on either side be affected by it?

They already have. Until a couple of years ago, as a result of a series of strikes around 2000, the local services in Cork were rapidly losing customers. I would guess that with a litany of 3rd world "quality" services, including substantial delays, cancellations at the drop of a hat, wildcat strikes and in general an extremely poor service for what is supposed to be Ireland's 2nd city, most people who start out as rail-dependent save hard and buy a car. A good example is around the Little Island area - thousands of people work year, yet only a tiny minority, maybe 50-60 people, use the service to get to work here. I would say the commuting population for workers here is well below 1%.

If the situation continues as it is, this will continue to happen. Much as the Midleton service is lauded, I can only see it as a continuation of the same thing - poor services, frequent cancellations and unexplained delays. This doesn't even count the frequent strikes, "replacement" buses that are full on arrival, leaving passengers stranded, insufficient parking at the stations for more than 20 or 30 people and ever escalating fares.

I don't just blame the drivers, management clearly has a responsibility too and have been very quick to constantly point the finger of blame at the drivers. I can only guess there is as much of a problem with management in this region since these strikes almost always originate in the same place. It could come down to a single manager or union member or two, but the core of the problem is clearly quite narrowly defined here. There is serious work that needs to be done in changing the way of thinking that has characterised this "service" over the last 8 years. Otherwise it will wither and die and there will be no jobs for management or drivers alike, as the service will be unviable.

Nostradamus

Igy wrote: »

If the union were being especially responsible, they'd berate the wildcat strikers for endangering the jobs and reputation of the rest of the drivers.

Yeah right. it is because they are immune to the relaities of normal employee responsibility that these muppets are like this.

A semi-state union mentality is almost like another form of humanity. The CIE union version of this is most detatched from reality of them all.

How much longer are we going to put up with these creeps and the stokes they pull? What kind of worthless government allows this carry on. Why do we pay our taxes?

Enough is enough.

Nostradamus

shoegirl wrote: »

They already have. Until a couple of years ago, as a result of a series of strikes around 2000, the local services in Cork were rapidly losing customers.

They wiped out railfrieght with that strike. You look at the amount of freight carried by rail before and after that stike and you can draw a line in the sand with CIE unions on one side and roads filled with lorries on the other.

Calina

IIRC and I am open to correction on this, the 2000 strike was a breakaway union at the time? Wasn't that ILDA? Not all the drivers were involved?

penexpers

Yeah it was ILDA in 2000 for the summer. There may have been other strikes leading up to it though?

Ham'nd'egger

Nostradamus wrote: »

They wiped out railfrieght with that strike. You look at the amount of freight carried by rail before and after that stike and you can draw a line in the sand with CIE unions on one side and roads filled with lorries on the other.

You are well educated enough on railway issues to know that that is very much not the case. Certainly it did not helped rail freight's image but the decision to cull freight from the railways was taken long ago before 2000 and far away from any CIE board meeting.