Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2008/2009

Cyrus

Mr Alan wrote: »

I really think if we sign Milner he could prove a lot of people wrong. I think he is very good with the potential to become excellent.

Granted in a perfect world we'd sign a world-class-now winger, but we dont have the money.

agreed, lets just wait and see

IrishMike

Mr Alan wrote: »

I really think if we sign Milner he could prove a lot of people wrong. I think he is very good with the potential to become excellent.

Granted in a perfect world we'd sign a world-class-now winger, but we dont have the money.

If rafa signed joey flipping barton you would find a positive way to spin it.
Take off the red tinted glasses al, milner is not a good signing and for £10m
he is a terrible signing.

MementoMori

Can't see Milner being the missing piece of the jigsaw.

Would be a squad player and likely to remain that way for some time if we bought him.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

I think he is very good with the potential to become excellent.
.

No, No his not. Pennant is twice as good as him and he isn't up to the standard Liverpool want to achieve.

Malice

Ryan Babel cost £11 million and is a central figure in the Dutch international squad and has played in numerous Champions League games scoring a few of goals. James Milner is a year older, is nowhere near the England squad and has no European experience so how can he be worth anywhere near the price of Babel?

I think this is complete paper talk. There's as much chance of me signing for Liverpool as there is Milner .

gucci

malice_ wrote: »

Ryan Babel cost £11 million and is a central figure in the Dutch international squad and has played in numerous Champions League games scoring a few of goals. James Milner is a year older, is nowhere near the England squad and has no European experience so how can he be worth anywhere near the price of Babel?

I think this is complete paper talk. There's as much chance of me signing for Liverpool as there is Milner .

I was actually going to post something similar, and point out once again that Milner is not the sort of player I want Liverpool signing, and the other was I cant wait for England to pick him for their squads if Liverpool sign him!
If his price is £10m then its insane. Ok maybe we cant sign players for £15m+, but thats no reason to spend £10m on someone like this!!

Cyrus

i cant see us paying 10m for him, if its a swap with pennant and 1-2m id be happy with that, i think he will offer more of a cutting edge and a better engine

Mr Alan

IrishMike wrote: »

If rafa signed joey flipping barton you would find a positive way to spin it.
Take off the red tinted glasses al, milner is not a good signing and for £10m
he is a terrible signing.

The links i've read rate him between 4-7million.

its not red tinted glasses Mike, its being realistic! i'm not saying anything you dont already know, but, WE ARE SKINT.

Rafa doing his best to strengthen the squad on a relatively shoestring-ish budget.....Milner is an improvement, not a massive one, but an improvement none the less.

I really dont understand what people want Rafa to do. we are broke. sad but true.

the best we can hope for imo, and this is the very best! is....

Barry-Degan-Dossena-One 7m rated winger (Milner?)-and one 12-15 million winger.

the 12-15 million winger is me being hopeful

IrishMike

Mr Alan wrote: »

The links i've read rate him between 4-7million.

its not red tinted glasses Mike, its being realistic! i'm not saying anything you dont already know, but, WE ARE SKINT.

Rafa doing his best to strengthen the squad on a relatively shoestring-ish budget.....Milner is an improvement, not a massive one, but an improvement none the less.

I really dont understand what people want Rafa to do. we are broke. sad but true.

the best we can hope for imo, and this is the very best! is....

Barry-Degan-Dossena-One 7m rated winger (Milner?)-and one 12-15 million winger.

the 12-15 million winger is me being hopeful

Milner is not better than pennant thats my point.
Why sell pennant who played some decent games towards the end of the
season for a newcastle player who has never looked above average?
£7m would probably scrape you someone like Joaquin, Aimar or vicente
Much higher quality and much better players.
Villa are also chasing milner, thing is he would be as a backup to the likes
of Agbonlahor whereas we are looking to buy him as a first choice winger.
Shocking prospect

Cyrus

back up to young? why, they play on opposite flanks do they not?

and nobody was prepared to take a chance on young except villa look at him now,

milner has the attributes, he has had a tough time, left leeds when he didnt want to due to all the upheaval, joined sir bobby at newcastle but the sourness took over and didnt like him, loaned to villa and did well, newcastle agreed a deal and then didnt sell him, so back to newcastle, and look at the turmoil up there.

id prefer to see him at liverpool than pennant and i think he will show himself to be an astute signing if we get him

Tusky

When I read that story about Milner I fell off my chair. Dear god this is depressing.

Degen, Barry & Milner...Riera ? Downing ? Could you imagine Arsenal, Utd, Chelsea, Inter Milan, Barcelona, A.C Milan or any other top club that we are supposed to be competing with signing these players ?

If we dont have the money, fine. Leave the squad the way it is and let it gel and just make one or two signings. Signing 6 average players is going to get us nowhere.

N.B I know Barry is a level above those guys, probably shouldn't have included him.

MementoMori

£15m bid for Barry rejected

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/a/aston_villa/7450271.stm

Liverpool bid for Barry rejected

Barry's future at Villa has been the subject of speculation
Aston Villa have confirmed that they have rejected an improved offer from Liverpool for midfielder Gareth Barry.

Liverpool have been chasing the Villa captain for some time and were thought to be close to agreeing a deal for the 27-year-old England international.

"The offer we received was a slight improvement on a previous bid," said an Aston Villa spokesman.

"But our position on the issue remains unchanged and Liverpool have been informed."

Barry's agent Alex Black told BBC Radio 5 Live that the player has told Villa manager Martin O'Neill of his desire to play Champions League football next season.

However, O'Neill has been critical of Liverpool's courting of the Barry, who captained England for the first time and scored his first international goal during the recent friendly against Trinidad and Tobago.

Liverpool are keen to partner Barry in midfield with his England colleague Steven Gerrard and have declared their interest publicly, much to O'Neill's fury.

606: DEBATE
Never will one person be as big as this club

villaman1986

Last month Barry said he was putting off all talks over his club future as he concentrated on his international duties with England.

The Reds are reported to have had an initial bid of £12m rejected for the player, who has been at the club for over 10 years.

The latest bid is thought to be at least £15m, but Villa are said to be holding out for £18m, which could pose a problem for Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez.

The Anfield boss has admitted he is expecting to have a reduced transfer budget as a result of the feud between American owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett.

"If we had a lot of money to spend it would obviously be better," Benitez said on the club website. "But if we don't, it doesn't matter.

"It is not about buying the most expensive players, it is about buying the right players and we can sell some players to get the others we need. We have the spine of the team and we just need others in other positions."

Time to walk away imo

I thought £14m was on the high side

Cyrus

Tusky wrote: »

When I read that story about Milner I fell off my chair. Dear god this is depressing.

Degen, Barry & Milner...Riera ? Downing ? Could you imagine Arsenal, Utd, Chelsea, Inter Milan, Barcelona, A.C Milan or any other top club that we are supposed to be competing with signing these players ?

If we dont have the money, fine. Leave the squad the way it is and let it gel and just make one or two signings. Signing 6 average players is going to get us nowhere.

N.B I know Barry is a level above those guys, probably shouldn't have included him.

all those teams have signed players thought to be average, some cut the mustard some dont

united have signed players like park, djemba djemba etc, chelsea sidwell, ben haim, ferreira

Boggles

Cyrus wrote: »

back up to young? why, they play on opposite flanks do they not?

and nobody was prepared to take a chance on young except villa look at him now,

Milner has over 150 Prem League appearences he has found his level IMO, young has had his first proper Prem League season, the difference in quality is quite apparent.

It's not like Milner has not been given plenty chances to prove himself, in fact he has more prem experience than most of the Liverpool team, he just simply is not good enough.

gucci

Cyrus wrote: »

all those teams have signed players thought to be average, some cut the mustard some dont

united have signed players like park, djemba djemba etc, chelsea sidwell, ben haim, ferreira

Which of those players would you have liked to see move to Liverpool? Is that an arguement for or against signing Milner? None of the players you have mentioned have cut the mustard......?

Cyrus

gucci wrote: »

Which of those players would you have liked to see move to Liverpool? Is that an arguement for or against signing Milner? None of the players you have mentioned have cut the mustard......?

im not arguing anything, people are trying to say its only liverpool that dont sign the likes of david villa or kaka everytime they sign players its just not true, i know all of the above have been crap but thats not the point, plus the likes of swp and reyes etc were young big names that we would have been delighted with and they didnt work out either.

we just have to trust rafa and assume that a lad who was good enough to play in the PL at 16 has enough natural ability to move his game on in the company of better players and coaches

Mr Alan

IrishMike wrote: »

Milner is not better than pennant thats my point.

ok well we fundamentally disagree there. Milner can go by players, has a super engine, better delivery and more heart. I dont mind Pennant, and he has done very well for us at times, but milner is better and younger.

IrishMike wrote: »

£7m would probably scrape you someone like Joaquin, Aimar or vicente.

I'm detecting you may overrate players who play in a foreign league you dont watch week in week out.

Jaoquin has been ****e since he left Betis, really ****e for example.

most people would've imagined Morientes would have done better than Dirk Kuyt, or Santa Cruz, or Ashley Young, or Benni Mc Carthy etc etc etc, but he didnt

Cyrus

Boggles wrote: »

Milner has over 150 Prem League appearences he has found his level IMO, young has had his first proper Prem League season, the difference in quality is quite apparent.

It's not like Milner has not been given plenty chances to prove himself, in fact he has more prem experience than most of the Liverpool team, he just simply is not good enough.

found his level at 22? imagine people had said that about cantona, carragher, joe cole, and countless others. players improve, the fact he has 150 epl appearances at 22 is a testament to him not a damning indictment.

ive seen a little of him and he is a direct, pacy, fit winger who has a good shot and cross on him, what have you against him?

IrishMike

Honestly think we should just keep Alonso at this stage.
The transfer speculation might make him wake up and realise that he will be sold if
he continues to perform below par.
For the money being quoted ie <£14m for Alonso and >£18m for Barry we are basically
paying at least £4m for a player who is not of the same quality but is more consistent.
Maddness in my opinion.
£4m would buy Gudjohnson
Gotta agree its probably time to walk away from the Barry fiasco

Cyrus

IrishMike wrote: »

Honestly think we should just keep Alonso at this stage.
The transfer speculation might make him wake up and realise that he will be sold if
he continues to perform below par.
For the money being quoted ie <£14m for Alonso and >£18m for Barry we are basically
paying at least £4m for a player who is not of the same quality but is more consistent.
Maddness in my opinion.
£4m would buy Gudjohnson
Gotta agree its probably time to walk away from the Barry fiasco

id be happier with that too but i think we are so far gone now that this is a foregone conclusion

Chardee MacDennis

i'd prefer to spend 4m + Pennant on Milner than 7m on Jaoquin, Aimar or Gudjohnson anyway! i really have to agree with Alan here in that you are over rating players that play abroad. i dont see Milner getting ahead of Kuyt or Babel in the starting line up though.

Mr Alan

Taken from another site, has a point imo as much as i dont wanna see us break the bank for Barry;

Not the sort of player I'd expect us to pay that amount of money for but slot him into a system that will supply Torres, Gerrard and Babel with quick short passing and great box to box movement and also put quality crosses into the box from dead balls then we will be a better team all round.

To play devils advocate a bit further in the comparison with Villa in terms of one or the other:

Barry is a proven, consistent Premiership player that will not need to adjust. Villa, as good as he is, might be another Morientes or Shevchenko. Would he fit into our system? We play the way we do because of the excellent understanding between Gerrard and Torres. Would Villa disrupt that? Would Gerrard be moved to the right? Barry slots in perfectly, Villa would need a whole rethink of tactics.

If Barry turned out to be the player that took us up a level in our play and turned those draws into wins, not by scoring the goals but by improving the fluidity of the team then he'd be worth every penny.

The comparison with Villa is silly, different positions and Villa will probably cost 25-30m but i see his point.

Tusky

Mr Alan wrote: »

Taken from another site, has a point imo as much as i dont wanna see us break the bank for Barry;



The comparison with Villa is silly, different positions and Villa will probably cost 25-30m but i see his point.

Thats a silly post Alan. There was never a choice between Villa & Barry. We either keep Alonso or sell him and buy a new CM (Barry). Villa doesnt come into the equation.

I think most people were hoping we would buy him in addition to Barry.

Cyrus wrote: »

all those teams have signed players thought to be average, some cut the mustard some dont

united have signed players like park, djemba djemba etc, chelsea sidwell, ben haim, ferreira

Ah yes, but there is a clear difference. First of all, its looking we were are going to sign a heap of average players...Utd, Chelsea etc will sign quality and back it up with some squad players.

We already have too many squad players. Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Carragher, Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard, Babel, Torres are top class. Everyone else is only good enough to be a squad player in my eyes. The players we are linked with also fall into the squad player category.

IrishMike

Gerrard on the right and villa in the whole would be a much better team if Alonso was at
the height of his powers.
The thing is he is not so i think Villa is beyond us as we have bigger holes in the team to
plug and we are flat broke!
The lotto is €25m this weekend, anyone here wins you have to buy Villa.
Not joking either

MementoMori

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article4116568.ece?token=596963967

Might be some other options

zAbbo

Keep Alonso if we are paying more than 12m for Barry.

The Barry deal only makes sense if we make money on Alonso, enough to put towards a new player.

If we want Barry on the cheap, he needs to come out and say he wants to join us.

Mr Alan

WE CANT AFFORD £30MILLION FOR VILLA!!!

I wish we could but we really cant. We dont need another striker anyway. Unless we are selling Crouch or Voronin......in which case we'll be getting a decent 8-10 million pound man i'd imagine.

Tusky, i agree the point about Villa is mute but you get wat he means, Barry isnt really that much of a gamble, we know wat he will bring and how he will improve our team.

the pieces i wanted people to take from the above post were the following.....all of which are true imo.

slot him into a system that will supply Torres, Gerrard and Babel with quick short passing and great box to box movement and also put quality crosses into the box from dead balls then we will be a better team all round.Barry is a proven, consistent Premiership player that will not need to adjust.Barry slots in perfectly.If Barry turned out to be the player that took us up a level in our play and turned those draws into wins, not by scoring the goals but by improving the fluidity of the team then he'd be worth every penny.

MementoMori

From BBC website

Everton have denied reports that they are preparing a £3.5m bid for Liverpool midfielder Yossi Benayoun as "fantasy." (Liverpool Echo 1124 BST)

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I know ithe rumour has been quashed but seriously the valutation
£3.5m for Benny - I would have said minimum £8m and nearer £10m

Am I nuts?

Boggles

Cyrus wrote: »

found his level at 22? imagine people had said that about cantona, carragher, joe cole, and countless others. players improve, the fact he has 150 epl appearances at 22 is a testament to him not a damning indictment.

ive seen a little of him and he is a direct, pacy, fit winger who has a good shot and cross on him, what have you against him?

He isn't a patch on Joe Cole, United were trying to make him the most expensive teenager in history when he was around 15.

He has more chance of being the next Carragher than he has of being the next Figo.

I have nothing against him and unlike yourself I have actually seen alot of him. He is an honest average player.

Tusky

Mr Alan wrote: »

WE CANT AFFORD £30MILLION FOR VILLA!!!

I wish we could but we really cant. We dont need another striker anyway. Unless we are selling Crouch or Voronin......in which case we'll be getting a decent 8-10 million pound man i'd imagine.

Tusky, i agree the point about Villa is mute but you get wat he means, Barry isnt really that much of a gamble, we know wat he will bring and how he will improve our team.

the pieces i wanted people to take from the above post were the following.....all of which are true imo.

I'm not saying we can afford Villa. I actually dont think hes what we need anyway. I was just saying that the Barry v Ville argument never existed...

Fair enough Alan but answer me this.

At the end of the season just gone, if you asked every Liverpool fan what was needed in the team and what should be done, what would they have said ?

99% of them would have said QUALITY in the wide areas both in attack and defense. How many would have said we need to sell Alonso and buy someone like Barry ?

I would much rather just keep Alonso and spend the remaining budget on the RWF position. If we can sell Alonso and buy Barry at no loss, fine.

I sometimes think Rafas obsession with having two players for every position is his downfall.

dardoz

I have to admit, I really wanted Barry, but if we bid higher than 15m for him I will be very pissed off. Anything over that is edging towards 20m and when you think we could have bid for Villa before the Euro's for a similar amount and kept Xavi it's way more than he's worth.

Cyrus

Boggles wrote: »

He isn't a patch on Joe Cole, United were trying to make him the most expensive teenager in history when he was around 15.

He has more chance of being the next Carragher than he has of being the next Figo.

I have nothing against him and unlike yourself I have actually seen alot of him. He is an honest average player.

but united didnt, and cole had a fair few years of not fulfilling his potential, and he may not be joe cole now but he can develop.

how have you seen so much of him? by that i mean more than anyone else who matches MOTD etc

i dont get your carragher analogy, my point about him is that he went from being an average dm/full back to a european champion centre half

Mr Alan

Tusky wrote: »

I'm At the end of the season just gone, if you asked every Liverpool fan what was needed in the team and what should be done, what would they have said ?

I agree, most would have said quality on the wings and left full.

Tusky wrote: »

How many would have said we need to sell Alonso and buy someone like Barry??

Not a lot I'd imagine.

BUT

I think a player in the middle who is a lot more consistant and a lot more of a goal threat than Alonso could make a big difference.

probably not enough to win the league, perhaps. but with a couple of other clever moves and last seasons signings bedding in better, we could be there or there abouts


Granted we wont be as strong on the wings as some of our rivals, but we will be stronger in the middle than most if not all imo.

----Mascherano-Barry

---

---

Gerrard

---

---

Torres

---

we've seen how well Torres and Gerrard work together last year, and we've seen how well Barry and Gerrard work together for England (and how obvious is it from Gerrards desperation for him to come to Anfield)

Tusky wrote: »

I would much rather just keep Alonso and spend the remaining budget on the RWF position. If we can sell Alonso and buy Barry at no loss, fine.

I too think there should be no loss with the Alonso/Barry deal.

I like Kuyt and Babel for that position. I actually would prefer to see money spent on the left side more so.

Tusky wrote: »

I sometimes think Rafas obsession with having two players for every position is his downfall.

Rafa has no downfall!;)

that was a joke before anyone in here starts going off at me!

IrishMike

Boggles wrote: »

He isn't a patch on Joe Cole, United were trying to make him the most expensive teenager in history when he was around 15.

He has more chance of being the next Carragher than he has of being the next Figo.

I have nothing against him and unlike yourself I have actually seen alot of him. He is an honest average player.

Cyrus wrote: »

but united didnt, and cole had a fair few years of not fulfilling his potential, and he may not be joe cole now but he can develop.

how have you seen so much of him? by that i mean more than anyone else who matches MOTD etc

i dont get your carragher analogy, my point about him is that he went from being an average dm/full back to a european champion centre half

Gotta agree with Boggles here.
Pennant from what ive seen is faster and has more ability than Milner.
Go ask some Newcastle fans how they feel about him leaving and the
first question everyone of them will ask is "for how much!"
Not one of them will say we need to keep him and build our team around him.
He doesnt have the potential you are talking about.
He is an average player and a waste of money unless we are talking about
a direct swap for pennant, which is still not a good deal.

PS lets get this myth of Gerrard and Barry being amazing for England out of the way.
They were playing against the might of Trinadad, the USA, France and Switzerland.
I saw the France match where England were destroyed, the other games are hardly
world class opposition now are they ?
Barry is a good player but he is not much better than Alonso @ 75%.

Boggles

Cyrus wrote: »

but united didnt, and cole had a fair few years of not fulfilling his potential, and he may not be joe cole now but he can develop.

Cole always had the potential, and showed the potential, Milner has had 150 prem matches, plenty to gauge what he is an honest average player.

Cyrus wrote: »

how have you seen so much of him? by that i mean more than anyone else who matches MOTD etc

Drinking buddies are with the Leeds United Supporters club, 2 brothers are 2 newcastle supporters. One of my Hobbies is Satellite, which enables alot more than Match of the Day.

Cyrus wrote: »

i dont get your carragher analogy, my point about him is that he went from being an average dm/full back to a european champion centre half

Kewell also has a champions league medal, no?

Cyrus

Boggles wrote: »

Cole always had the potential, and showed the potential, Milner has had 150 prem matches, plenty to gauge what he is an honest average player.



Drinking buddies are with the Leeds United Supporters club, 2 brothers are 2 newcastle supporters. One of my Hobbies is Satellite, which enables alot more than Match of the Day.



Kewell also has a champions league medal, no?

so does djimi traore and darren fletcher and ji sung park, whats your point

and you are normally drunk watching milner

Boggles

Cyrus wrote: »

so does djimi traore and darren fletcher and ji sung park, whats your point

and you are normally drunk watching milner

Haha, you would be too if you had to listen to Leeds fans.

There seems to be a lack of quality reasonably priced wingers out there, if your happy enough to sign the level of Milner that's fair enough.

But if Liverpool are serious about pushing forward and especially with the reported financial woes, spending 10 million on Milner will not improve the team, I'm not a fan of Pennant - no excuses but he has had his problems and maybe hasn't been fully concentrating on his career, even still he is above average and has the potential (dropping as his age rises), he is still better than Milner thou.

Edit:

I think Liverpool should get shot of Pennant.

Mr Alan

has it been reported anywhere that we'd be paying £10m for Milner?

gucci

MementoMori wrote: »

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article4116568.ece?token=596963967

Might be some other options

Wow i cant believe Obafemi Martins is only 23!! He seems to be around ages!
The fact that Cisse is No. 6, completely ruins any realistic arguements for or against that whole article :pac::pac:

Mr Alan

23.....

good one Obefami!

MementoMori

The Times article aint listed in any particular order Gucci

Boggles

gucci wrote: »

Wow i cant believe Obafemi Martins is only 23!! He seems to be around ages!

Apartently he is older, but *cough* they made a mistake on his passport.

Edit:

Just checked there, he is actually 47.:pac::pac:

joker77

Boggles wrote: »

Apartently he is older, but *cough* they made a mistake on his passport.

Edit:

Just checked there, he is actually 47.:pac::pac:

ha ha - yea I heard that one too. There's no way the chap is only 23.

gucci

Boggles wrote: »

Apartently he is older, but *cough* they made a mistake on his passport.

Edit:

Just checked there, he is actually 47.:pac::pac:

And hes actually Roger Milla playing under a different name!!! :eek::eek:

The G Child

Didnt that delay Martins Move to Newcastle??? He was claiming to be 22 at the time, but word had got back that he had doctored his passport and was really 30. He had to prove his agae before they signed him.

~Rebel~

One aspect that doesn't seem to have been mentioned in the Pennant Vs Milner debate, and the one which makes this move make some sense;

Milner scores goals - Pennant doesn't.

Thats vital for the WF role he'd be playing in, and the reason Pennant isn't suited to it.

The G Child

~Rebel~ wrote: »

One aspect that doesn't seem to have been mentioned in the Pennant Vs Milner debate, and the one which makes this move make some sense;

Milner scores goals - Pennant doesn't.

Thats vital for the WF role he'd be playing in, and the reason Pennant isn't suited to it.

Have to agree there, think Pennant's only scored something like 3 goals in 2 years. Very poor return.

IrishMike

Milner has scored 6 in 92 for Newcastle and 1 in 27 for Villa when he was there.
Stop talking complete ****e.
Neither player can score if there were there all day on their own.
Both average players with Pennant being a slightly better crosser and slightly faster.
Prefer to have neither but at a push i would take Pennant as he is less of a risk
as he has proven he can be above average at times for Liverpool and doesnt seem
to be badly effected by rotation

MementoMori

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=56167666#post56167666

Basically Checking Millner's stats

2007-2008 Newcastle Aps 33 Goals 3
2006-2007 Newcastle Aps 51 Goals 4
2005-2006 ASton Villa Aps 39 Goals 3
2004-2005 Newcastle Aps 44 Goals 1

Aps 167 Goals 11 one every 15 games - hardly impressive.

While Pennant's Career Stats

2006-2008 Liverpool Aps 52 Goals 3
2005-2006 Birmingham Aps 50 Goals 2
2003-2004 Leeds Aps 36 Goals 2
2002-2003 Watford Aps 21 Goals 3
1999-2005 Arsenal Aps 12 Goals 3

Aps 171 Goals 13 one ever 13 games - slightly better than Millner

Admittedly it's playing in differing teams and at a different stage in their career but it shows that neither of them is exactly a goal machine, but to suggest

Milner scores goals - Pennant doesn't.

is just plain wrong

Chardee MacDennis

Milner got 2 goals and 2 assists in the league last season according to ESPN.