I'm getting THAT itch again

RE*AC*TOR

Christ. I want to upgrade again. But this time for it to be worthwhile I'll probably have to spend in the €1000-€1500 range.

As many regulars here know, I have a Gaggia Classic and MDF. I don't feel it worthwhile to make a moderate step up the ladder, say to a Rancilio Silvia. This would cost me about €400, and the benefit (if any) would be small.

So I was thinking...

The Nuova Simonelli Oscar - STG£700



However, I noticed on ebay.it that I could get this machine and the matching Nuovo Simonelli Grinta grinder for €640 delivered.

Tis now ordered (in red).

God forgive me.

eclectichoney

Reactor, you truly are an inspiration to us all

I've got to admit I hadn't heard of it but it looks the business, and sure that's all that counts (I'm a girl, forgive me )

Seriously though, that's not a bad price so will be dying to hear if it's a big step up from your gaggia.

Mr Magnolia

Noes!!!! I know where this could lead

I know I said this when you purchased the iroast, I'm gonna say it again: I hope the report's not good. But I want some video footage anyway.

RE*AC*TOR

Normal price of the OScar and the Grinta would be about €1300 - so this is essentially half price.
Couldn't turn it down for a HX machine.

In essence a HX machine is, for those unfamiliar (taken from coffeegeek):
Single Boiler, Heat Exchanger Machines. These machines are more common above the $1,000 price point. A big boiler maintains water at around 240F or higher, ideal for producing steam. Brewing water makes its way to the grouphead through a coiled tube inside the boiler. As it is drawn from the reservoir, through the coiled tube, it flash heats up to (hypothetically) ideal brewing temperatures. The coiled tube is the heat exchanger. You can steam and brew at the same time on these machines.

Mr Magnolia

OK, it can steam and brew at the same time, that's certainly one benefit.

Will it produce a better coffee than the Classic? Or what other benefits does it have over the Classic. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just wondering about the justification. Tell me to fupp off if you want :-D

RE*AC*TOR

More stable (much more) brew temperature through the shot.

RE*AC*TOR

Having spent most of the weekend reading reviews etc after my hasty purchase I'm delighted I went for it. A few UK e-tailers are selling the machine on its own for STG£700. The reviews on coffeegeek and alt.coffee are nearly uniformly glowing. At its recommended retail price its considered the best value HX machine on the market. At this price its obscene.

My only concern is that I could've got the machine on its own for €480 delivered. And while I don't doubt and extra €160 for the grinder is an excellent price (saw it at STG£242 on a website this morning) - is it going to be much better than my MDF? Very few reviews on the grinder - but most seem to place it about the same or a bit above the Rancilio Rocky.

While its not as pretty as some of the pricier HX machines out there (Expobar, Bezzera, etc), I do quite like the red:

Mr Magnolia

Good stuff on the coffee machine so. Look forward to the reports.

If the grinder only matches up to the MDF I'm sure you'll be able to sell it on without much of a loss. There are plenty of posters around who would have an eye out for a good grinder reasonably priced.

Mr Magnolia

Thread split. The Great Grinder Challenge continues here.

JIZZLORD

jaysus man! step away from the coffee equipment. all you're lacking at the moment is a coffee plantation

hshortt

That's some itch! Look forward to the reviews and videos.

RE*AC*TOR

JIZZLORD wrote: »

jaysus man! step away from the coffee equipment. all you're lacking at the moment is a coffee plantation

i hadn't thought of that... yet

kencleary

Hey reactor care to post some links from where you're finding it online so cheap? I'm using a cheap Gaggia at the moment so it would be quite an upgrade for me. Would be tempted to bring the Gaggia into work then - mmmmm limitless supply of expresso at my desk, maybe it's not such a great idea!

RE*AC*TOR

kencleary wrote: »

Hey reactor care to post some links from where you're finding it online so cheap? I'm using a cheap Gaggia at the moment so it would be quite an upgrade for me. Would be tempted to bring the Gaggia into work then - mmmmm limitless supply of expresso at my desk, maybe it's not such a great idea!

http://search.ebay.ie/_W0QQsassZik6cgo

That's the shop of the guy I bought it from. Goes by the name of Gianni. Absolute pleasure to deal with.

eclectichoney

Reactor that grinder looks really lovely. If it works out for you I might just take the plunge myself as I had been considering a Rocky as a treat for myself This one is far prettier though and cheaper! :pac:

RE*AC*TOR

eclectichoney wrote: »

Reactor that grinder looks really lovely. If it works out for you I might just take the plunge myself as I had been considering a Rocky as a treat for myself This one is far prettier though and cheaper! :pac:

What do you have at the moment? If any?

eclectichoney

None

RE*AC*TOR

eclectichoney wrote: »

None

Awww. So you're buying pregound?
You'll be blown away by the difference.

Khannie

eclectichoney wrote: »

None

Grab yourself a blade grinder at least. I think I only paid about 20 euro on ebay for mine (including delivery). Huge difference in nyom-ness.

eclectichoney

What can I say boys, I'm waiting for the *right* grinder to come along before I commit myself When I get a grinder it's gonna be for life. I don't want to spend €50 on one, realise how much better it is than preground, only to have to upgrade then if that makes sense.

RE*AC*TOR

eclectichoney wrote: »

What can I say boys, I'm waiting for the *right* grinder to come along before I commit myself When I get a grinder it's gonna be for life. I don't want to spend €50 on one, realise how much better it is than preground, only to have to upgrade then if that makes sense.

Buy a mazzer mini. It'll cost €500+ but it'll outlast you.

Seriously though I think you're right to hold out for the right grinder, and if you're planning on getting a burr in the near future, then no point in getting a blade in the meantime.

eclectichoney

Yeah i reckon I'll deffo take the plunge by the end of the summer. The iberital MC2 and the grinta are both on my list now. I really fancy the rocky but it might be a touch expensive for me. These seem to be the ones getting th ebest feedback on here (which has become my coffee bible thanks to you guys!)

Mr Magnolia

Keep an eye on 'The Great Grinder Challenge' thread too, results should be interesting and may influence your decision.

RE*AC*TOR

Well everything arrived yesterday. I was totally flumoxxed. First off had to put new plugs on both machines. Total PITA. Then I just made a quick shot using coffee ground from my MDF - perfect! Very different from my Classic. Hard to describe.

But then after that I spent the next few hours dialing in the Grinta grinder. I made such a mess. Ended up running out of roasted beans. So this morning I went to Lidl and bought some cheap beans and dialed in teh grinder. Fairly happy now. Quite like being doserless apart from the clumping.

Will report more on Monday. So tired now.


Oh one last thing. The Oscar does not have an adjustable OPV. So when I used the pressure meter it goes off the scale (almost - I don't let it for fear of damaging the meter). I may have to look into installing a different OPV.

Khannie

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

Will report more on Monday.

*cough*

ahem.

RE*AC*TOR

Yeah - so monday's a bank holiday - that doesn't count.

Anyway here goes: It feels like I'm learning how to make coffee from scratch. You master a machine and think you're a bit of an expert, then you get a new machine and all that experience goes out the window.

My wife described the scene she was presented with coming home on Friday evening as being like the scene in A Beutiful Mind with Russell Crowe with his shoes off pacing back and forth with the walls covered in pages. Except in this case the whole place was covered in coffee and I had discarded several layers of clothing in fury.

First off - I think the pressure is WAAAAY to high in this machine. That's resulting in sometimes poor seals at the grouphead, diffculty in maintaining consistency between shots, and most annoyingly channelling. Lots of channelling. I have ordered an OPV that I'll fit on the cold water side of the boiler. Should have that by Thursday.

For that reason I'd be hesitant to recommend this machine to someone who isn't willing to do a little plumbing.

Another problem I'm having is with steaming milk. Dear god, this thing could power a train. Its got a 4 hole steam wand, and it just too fast. I can't get any decent texturing done. I did manage to steam a mug of water to boiling in about 8 seconds though. So might be useful for americanos.

The thing to do might be to change the tip for a 2 hole jobby.

Onto the grinder. Doserless has its advantages. Seems a lot cleaner. But one thing I have had to adjust to is clumping. With the MDF the grinds had to go through the doser, so that tended to break up the clumps. Here I'd had to adopt the WDT method (basically means stirring).

I'll see when I take the microscope pictures later whether the grind is consistent enough or not. I may want to return to a doser machine in the future.

kencleary

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

First off - I think the pressure is WAAAAY to high in this machine. That's resulting in sometimes poor seals at the grouphead, diffculty in maintaining consistency between shots, and most annoyingly channelling. Lots of channelling. I have ordered an OPV that I'll fit on the cold water side of the boiler. Should have that by Thursday.

For that reason I'd be hesitant to recommend this machine to someone who isn't willing to do a little plumbing.

Hmmm very disappointing to be honest. I was considering getting this machine on the basis of a few reviews online that said it was a very consistent beast. My current Gaggia produces just enough dud shots to be annoying. Do let us know if it improves after a few days use.

RE*AC*TOR

kencleary wrote: »

Hmmm very disappointing to be honest. I was considering getting this machine on the basis of a few reviews online that said it was a very consistent beast. My current Gaggia produces just enough dud shots to be annoying. Do let us know if it improves after a few days use.

My Gaggia is very forgiving. Rarely get any weird shots on it.

Could be a tamping issue. Until recently I was using a 57mm tamper. Which meant I could staub tamp (NSEW). Now I have a 58mm tamper which excludes that mostly.

eclectichoney

Thanks for the feedback reactor. I'm disappointed to hear about the grinder. Especially as it look so small and pretty that my mother would let me have it on the kitchen counter lol

RE*AC*TOR

eclectichoney wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback reactor. I'm disappointed to hear about the grinder. Especially as it look so small and pretty that my mother would let me have it on the kitchen counter lol

Its definetly not small, absolutely towers above my MDF. But I wouldn't say its a bad grinder, on the contrary, clumping affects some of the best grinders out there, including the top end mazzers.

RE*AC*TOR

Begod. I got the OPV fitted anyway. It was an ordeal I must say. I'm no plumber.

Kinda takes away from the good value of the machine to have to do all this tinkering. Still considering its about half the price of any other HX machines on the market I'm doing well enough.

Vastly improved espresso. Unsurprising to be honest, because when I pull a 60ml double 100ml gets returned on the OPV. That's a lot of water trying to force its way through the coffee otherwise.

RE*AC*TOR

Starting to get a hang of the milk steaming. The difference in power was hard to handle at first, and my milk was all over the place. Still getting a little too much air into the milk (especially doing small volumes), but we're getting there.

Mr Magnolia

Nice. I'll be starting to make a few attempts at latte design soon. If you've any guides handy, post away. I've found some stuff on Home-Barista, I'll have a search of youtube, I know you said there was some good material on there.

Ordering the bottomless portafilter today too.

Khannie

NYOM NYOM!

So now that you've had it a while, would you recommend this machine for a noob like me? I will admit that I have no idea what an OPV is, but I'm prepared to mod things.

I seriously considered (and am still considering) your classic since you've tinkered it to perfection but I'm not sure if it'd suit my needs yet.

Khannie

B*stard has bumped the price to 545 including delivery. X(

Mr Magnolia

I'd recommend it at that money for small domestic home use Khannie, certainly for that money.

The OPV is an over-pressure-valve. The pumps that are in modern espresso machines can have an output range jumping from 15-19bar. The OPV regulates the output to the basket to a preset value.

The Gaggia classic is set around the 13bar mark, RE*ACT*OR and myself modified our valves so the output would be 9bar, perfect extraction pressure. There's a couple of threads here on it, you may have seen them. I'll be getting the fittings I need to ensure my mod is 9bar exactly later this week. I'll be reporting on that thread when I do.

RE*AC*TOR

Khannie:
I wouldn't recommend the Oscar to anyone who wasn't willing to do some serious plumbing and by this I mean,
taking the machine apart, unscrewing pipes, shortening tubes, inserting aftermarket stuff from plumbing stores, wrapping everything in PTFE, checking for leaks, disassembling and reassembling everything if there are leaks (I had to do this about 4 times). Obviously you have to source an OPV find space to fit it into the cramped insides of the machine, find space to run a tube back to the reservoir. It took me about a week to get all this done, it was an utter pain in the arse. If you are willing to go through all that then you will end up with undoubtedly the best value hx machine on the market.

As to whether the Classic meets your needs or not, I do not know. What are your needs? There are certainly pros and cons to it.

Pros: for the price you will get nothing comparable.
It is a very forgiving machine, less tempremental than Silvia (from what I've heard), and Oscar (from what I've experienced).
It's relatively small, very well built, and gets up to brew and steam temperature very quickly.
I found it very easy to steam milk to a lovely texture (haven't acheived that on Oscar yet).
Cons: the boiler is small. This means that brew temperature drops during the shot. Most say that brew temperature should be flat during a shot pull for optimum results, but there are notable high profile exceptions who say it should not be flat (https://www.espressoquest.com/Blogs/6/43.html).
The small boiler also means that steaming milk for more than two lattés at a time is a no go. It just runs out of oomph.

If you can buy and PID a Silvia I would say the Silvia would be superior. But I have never used a Silvia, so I am only going on what others say. If you google Silvia Vs Classic you will find many topics.

RE*AC*TOR

Jesus - yer man has definitely bumped up the price of the machines. The Oscar and Grinta now €720 delivered - I got them for €640. Still cheaper than I've seen it anywhere else though.

Khannie

Thanks for that reply. Fairly comprehensive.

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

If you are willing to go through all that

I am not.

I'll get back to you on the classic though (unless it's sold by then of course).

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

Jesus - yer man has definitely bumped up the price of the machines. The Oscar and Grinta now €720 delivered - I got them for €640. Still cheaper than I've seen it anywhere else though.

Yeah...I reckon he must have copped on to that and decided to bump it up. There's a "make an offer" option though.

Mr Magnolia

It's been a couple of weeks now, how's the new machine bedding in?

RE*AC*TOR

Well. I think I've gotten to grips with the temp surfing, and my milk is constantly improving.
Couple of niggling design issues. The drip tray while deep, hides a back compartment which is lower that the front visible area. So while you may think you have plenty of space left it may well be spilling at the rear.

Other than that I have no major problems to report.

Mr Magnolia

Good stuff. Glad it's working out for you.

Mr Magnolia

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

Starting to get a hang of the milk steaming. The difference in power was hard to handle at first, and my milk was all over the place. Still getting a little too much air into the milk (especially doing small volumes), but we're getting there.

I can't seem to get the correct consistency with the milk foaming. It's coming out too frothy. Did you have this problem with the Classic before the rancilio wand mod?

RE*AC*TOR

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

I can't seem to get the correct consistency with the milk foaming. It's coming out too frothy. Did you have this problem with the Classic before the rancilio wand mod?

It certainly got easier after I got the wand.
Are you using the full panarello?

Mr Magnolia

I've tried a number of different methods. Keeping the panarello to the top of the milk, semi-immersing it, fully immersing it and a number of variations of the above.

RE*AC*TOR

Unfortunately you can't make micro foam at all with a panarello. Before I got the steam wand I took off the main panarello bit and left on the little bit if screws on to. Gives you a little more length over the steam wand on its own.

You could also try blocking the hole in the side of the panarello. This is what is used to get all that air into the drink.

I'm still not getting consistently great milk. But I guess its down to practice in the end.

Khannie

Very nice looking. There I thought I just wasn't pouring it right.

Mr Magnolia

Congrats RE*AC*TOR, they look very good. I'll just go and order the new wand. Got the bottomless portafilter, very impressed. I hope to tune my OPV mod on Friday.

Mr Magnolia

Turned down the steam to the panarello today, big improvement on the foam. I really just cracked it open and no more. It took a bit longer for the milk to come up to temperature but a good improvement all round.

I still suck at latte design though