Just bought a car - already blue smoke.

Páid

Price the turbo at Scanveco in West Dublin. They are the main Saab importer in Ireland. Got a turbo for my Dad (02 Saab 9-5) earlier this year but I cannot remember how much it was but I remember it being very competitive.

http://www.saab.ie/main/IE/en/company.shtml

Henry Ford III

Dealer sounds to be handling this well enough tbh.

Fitting a new turbo and cleaning out a sump really isn't that hard nor labour intensive though. Check elsewhere as I feel €750 for this is pretty high.

ShiverinEskimo

I rang a crowd called Assured Performance in Walkinstown and priced it (my local fella recommended these) and it came to 580+VAT.

I must have been looking at the pre-VAT figures when I had a quick look. ~700 to 800 seems the norm.

Of course the garage will get the VAT back so its 580 for him. I'll be asking him for a copy of the receipt to show he's bought a new one and not a second-hand or refurb (if turbo refurb's exist - once they go, they go i reckon).

Ferris

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Of course the garage will get the VAT back so its 580 for him. I'll be asking him for a copy of the receipt to show he's bought a new one and not a second-hand or refurb (if turbo refurb's exist - once they go, they go i reckon).

They do exist, places in England do them but you need a new one.

ShiverinEskimo

Defo. He was to call me before lunch time today but so far no word. I'll give him til 4:30.

I'll definately be making sure its a new one. I'll be asking for the receipt.

peasant

Depending on what's gone on the turbo you don't necessarily need a new one.

The actual turbine wheels and the precision cast housing are the most expensive bits on a turbo, but they are quite durable as well.

What usually goes are the bearings and their housings/seals ...which means that the oil that should grease and cool them gets into the engine instead causing the bearings to seize/desintegrate.

As long as the turbine wheels and the shaft on which they sit are still ok and the bearing seats in the housing are unaffected, a refurbished turbo with new bearings and seals could work perfectly well for you .

Slidey

From what i have seen most car turbos do not have actual "bearings", instead the run on a bed of oil, sort of floating. Ball bearing turbos are more for high performance applictions
Turbos can often spin at speeds of over 100,000 rpm so refurbing them is a highly specailised job.
Consider 750 euro cheap, 3.0 trooper turbos for a while were 1800! Due to high failure rates the price has now come down..

Ferris

+1 Correct.

Most stock turbos run in a pressurised oil seal, thats why old dirty oil, low oil pressure and low oil temperature kill turbos very quickly. Its a good design because if the turbos are treated right the design will work indefinately.

Old oil, driving an engine hard when cold or switching off an engine after a run without letting the turbo cool is usually the killer of turbo's.

ShiverinEskimo

Especially for Saab 9-5 (2000-2002 I think) where the catalytic converter was placed too close to the oil pan so cooks the oil over time.

Supposed to change the oil every 6k miles.

S.I.R

slideways wrote: »

Good post there...not
When an engine emmits blue smoke it means it is burning oil (generally)
There are 3 main reasons for this and in a diesel a headgasket is rarely one.

1) turbo (if one is fitted), oil leak from the turbo in to exhaust and burning there or into intercooler and inlet manifold and burning in the engine.

2)Valve stem oil seals, where the seals on the vlve stems have deterioated or cracked and allow the oil that is lubricating the head to seep down past the valves and burn in the engine

3)Worn or damaged piston rings. Where the scarper ring is worn or a compression ring is damaged. Oil is left on the wall of the cylinder after burns then during combustion

To tarnish the dealer in this way is unfair. The vehicle may ahve been in stock for some time and the turbo could have failed due to this
Once contacted they may replace the turbo, no questions asked.
To the OP, i would ring them before I drove all the way there and ask them if they feel it will be alright.
I have seen turbos break up and either fall down the exhaust manifold doing damage or cause the engine to run on the oil which can be very frightening if you dont know what to do, esp if it is an automatic or in my case was a large truck with a crash box and a slipping clutch but that is another story!

i tend to keep things basic so yeah ill continue to as if i went into long winded explanations nobody here would understand me

blue smoke Yes is a primary indicator that the turbo could hasve worn seals/barings but generally 8/10 times its the headgasket...even the slightest bit and you get blue smoke...


if you have to put the foot down to get bluye smoke well then thats the turbo nackered.

if its the non turbo model the kasket has gone, its an opel omega engine... haven owned t he 9000 its the same engine till 2004 where saab built there very own Afair.

pin size leak is all you need then it warps...

opel engines are ok.... though i would reccomend asking you mechanic if this is right, havent done many 9-5's so yeah i only know from myown exp and what every saab mechanic ive ever met has told me...

Mr.Diagnostic

S.I.R wrote: »

i tend to keep things basic so yeah ill continue to as if i went into long winded explanations nobody here would understand me

blue smoke Yes is a primary indicator that the turbo could hasve worn seals/barings but generally 8/10 times its the headgasket...even the slightest bit and you get blue smoke...


if you have to put the foot down to get bluye smoke well then thats the turbo nackered.

if its the non turbo model the kasket has gone, its an opel omega engine... haven owned t he 9000 its the same engine till 2004 where saab built there very own Afair.

pin size leak is all you need then it warps...

opel engines are ok.... though i would reccomend asking you mechanic if this is right, havent done many 9-5's so yeah i only know from myown exp and what every saab mechanic ive ever met has told me...

What you posted was incorrect, as slideways pointed out. What you have posted here in response to him is equally incorrect.

Why post about how much experience you have when you have posted that you are just a few months into a panel beating apprenticeship? There is no shame in not knowing everything, or indeed much at all.

Ferris

S.I.R wrote: »

i tend to keep things basic so yeah ill continue to as if i went into long winded explanations nobody here would understand me

blue smoke Yes is a primary indicator that the turbo could hasve worn seals/barings but generally 8/10 times its the headgasket...even the slightest bit and you get blue smoke...


if you have to put the foot down to get bluye smoke well then thats the turbo nackered.

if its the non turbo model the kasket has gone, its an opel omega engine... haven owned t he 9000 its the same engine till 2004 where saab built there very own Afair.

pin size leak is all you need then it warps...

opel engines are ok.... though i would reccomend asking you mechanic if this is right, havent done many 9-5's so yeah i only know from myown exp and what every saab mechanic ive ever met has told me...

Why are you lying all the time? Try not posting if you don't know anything about a subject, like e30 bmw's, saab turbo's or old mercs. Subjects such as these don't figure highly in an 'apprentice panel beaters' workload.

I am no expert either (self trained from maintaining my own cars and reading honestjohn) but I try to post helpful comment's that are not cock and bull!

I'm thinking that a panel beater wouldn't get much time to read boards during the day either, there must be paint all over your keyboard:D!

ShiverinEskimo

Ok this just went south - he rang me back to say he's priced a refurbed turbo. I demanded a new turbo and he said not a chance - his is liable to fix it to driving standards, not provide new parts.

I then went down the road of getting my money back and he refused, says he doesn't have to refund me. I quote the sale of goods and services act and that the problem occured same day of purchase. He had the cheek to say I didn't report it for three days.

I got home at 5pm Saturday and tried calling him - he didn't answer. I rang him first thing monday morning and notified his of the issue.
He claims the car was driving fine when they had it - which can't be true because my girlfriend noticed the smoke when she literally pulled out of the garage.

Is there anyone knows whether or not I can get my cash back?

niceirishfella

He's totally worng - Put your grievance in writing to him immediately stating the sale of goods act.
He's bang out of order........

Ferris

Sorry to hear this mate, you have a few options to think about:

1. Take the refurb turbo, anything for an easy life and all.
2. Press him for a new turbo - preferred route.
3. Go legal, messy and time consuming.

If you go legal, tell him that you are doing so. Report it to SIMI (useless but why not!) and Consumer rights, get case reference numbers! You might want to get a solicitors letter to him after that if he's not playing ball.

One idea is to say to him that you have to keep driving the car in this condition, it will eventually suck the sump dry and blow the engine, leaving him with a big bill so he'd better sort it out for his own sake - do this off record!

Oh and he is liable, the car didn't blow a turbo in 3 days, ridiculous!

peasant

Personally I still think that a refurbed turbo should be ok.

I don't know about the legal side of things, if you can actually demand a new turbo ...but if it had happened to you outside of warranty you would probably consider a refurb if it was your money ...especially if you take the value of the car in relation to the price of the new turbo and fitting it.

Ferris

I refurbed a turbo and fitted it to my car and 20k later its fine, but I have heard horror stories.

It cost me £450stg for the refurbed one anyway so a new saab one is cheaper. This means that the dealer is getting it done for a lot less, not a good sign imo.

I don't see why the dealer is being so difficult about this, the new turbo is relatively cheap.

ShiverinEskimo

My head is wrecked. I've just written a giant letter that while very professional is sure to burn bridges.

I dont know what to do.

DaveM-sport

Only this fella here would take advice from SIR

<SNIP> offensive image removed (MODEDIT)

And as for the post with " Did you leave the handbrake post on"
Oh, dear....

Overlfilling an engine with oil can cause blue smoke though but when it does it means your more than likely already after doing damage to the seals anyway
I know a fella that filled up a Starlet GT turbo once up to the oil filler cap with oil. He got an almighty dose of abuse then and funnily the car still ran after he drained the oil out:eek:
Don't know how he didn't bend something

But obviously is the turbo in this case anyway as stated numerous times already since the problem is only there when the turbo is under pressure...

If he doesn't get you a new turbo, take him up on in his offer to let your local mechanic to do the work.
Then you'll be able to see is it just the seals that have failed or has the shaft worn and caused damage to the impellers and casing.
And also to inspect the condition of this "re-furbed" turbo to see if it will do the job

peasant

Warning for DaveM-sport

Stop haunting one user accross several threads and fora.

You're not making a good entrance for yourself here

One more post like this and you will be banned

angryaine

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

My head is wrecked. I've just written a giant letter that while very professional is sure to burn bridges.

I dont know what to do.

shiverin, this lad seems to be givin ya the old runaround. all that is happening when you put your footdown with this lad - is blue smoke and bulls*1t.

seriously, ya need to get down to his house, and start stormin up and down the street in the car, covering the place in skidmarks and blue smoke.
his neighbours wont like it and he will probably come out and call the cops.
but when they arrive, pull his pants down and get the vaseline out.
when the cops arrest ya, just say "sure he did it to me without askin.... now its my turn."

roughan

slideways wrote: »

From what i have seen most car turbos do not have actual "bearings", instead the run on a bed of oil, sort of floating. Ball bearing turbos are more for high performance applictions
Turbos can often spin at speeds of over 100,000 rpm so refurbing them is a highly specailised job.
Consider 750 euro cheap, 3.0 trooper turbos for a while were 1800! Due to high failure rates the price has now come down..

you obviously have not seen many turbos if u think they float in oil
then again u did believe that ur VW was faster then my old Porsche:rolleyes:
this might help u
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2986/article.html
R

SouperComputer

Refurbed turbo is more than up to the job and TBH is just as good as a new one, provided it has been refurbed correctly. Find out what company the refurbed turbo is from, also find out what the warranty is on the replacement.

Save yourself the hassle and stress of trying to get a new turbo out of the dealer, honestly, its not worth your time or energy. Refurbed, done coreectly absolutely fine.

Sure, you'll get lots of "fight the powa" and "***k the dealer posts" but what purpose does it serve? It wont make the car any more reliable, and means added stress for you.

Unfortnately, the sludge issue is common with a lot of the Saab turbos, also be sure to inspect/replace the rubber Vacuum pipes at the inlet manifold.

opel engines are ok.... though i would reccomend asking you mechanic if this is right, havent done many 9-5's so yeah i only know from myown exp and what every saab mechanic ive ever met has told me...

I stand to be corrected, but IIRC the 4pots are Saab engines, designed and built by Saab, based on their previous Bxxx designs, albeit under GM ownership. The V6 is a nasty GM unit however.

DaveM-sport

Finally an informed opinion

If only he got that answer at the start of the thread instead of "did you leave the handbrake on?":p

you obviously have not seen many turbos if u think they float in oil
then again u did believe that ur VW was faster then my old Porsche
this might help u

Think he meant the sleave bearing type.
I have only really seen turbos which use oil to help cushion the shaft in tractors and trucks, lol.
good link though:)

Still, better than like somebody saying to me once that it's the oil flow across the shaft that makes the turbo spin and not the exhaust gases:eek:

ShiverinEskimo

Yea I had a big righteous email written but have not sent it yet. I wouldn't be half as angry (i actually expected a refurb) but the way he has treated me and the way he spoke to me earlier really pissed me off.

I was promised phone calls all week and every day I had to ring him. There's a list of things on the car he was supposed to do, a new SID, a service and was supposed to book the NCT.

SID is "on its way"
NCT has not been booked
Service may have been done but the service book was not stamped.

Then the fault itself 2 hours after driving away. Then he denied I tried to contact him but I have proof in the form of call records.

He even said he was driving that car at one stage and that it was fine - sounded like he was blaming me for the fault.

alias no.9

A refurbed turbo plus fitting is the best you're going to get out of him. It's a reasonable position for him to take, the turbo that was on it was not new. What you may want to consider since he's covering that much, is for you to make up the difference between a refurbed turbo and a new one, not sure what that would amount to but I'd imagine the piece of mind would make it worth it. If you think it's worth it, call him straight away and negotiate in case he's got a refurbed unit bought and paid for.

ShiverinEskimo

That's exactly what I was thinking alias - I called him to ask how much he was paying and who from and he says he doesn't know yet.

He then said a new turbo is "over a thousand euro". I replied and said Assured Performance the opposite side of the M50 to him is selling a Garrett GT1752 for 580+VAT and he said to text him the number, that he'd check it out. Doubtful.

niceirishfella

I'm really sorry to hear about all of this Shiverin.
Its a real pisser.
This dealer is a gobshoite and not to be trusted as he's showing his colours now.
I hate dealers like this, they give everyone in the game a bad name........i'm glad i'm out of it.
My mantra now is to avoid the trade.........fullstop....buy and deal private,import and vrt myself, self servicing, the lot - ok, i may have wobbles along the way and have to fix things but i save a small fortune and then have way, way ,way more than enough to take a hit like on a replacement turbo if need be and I can control it...........how much it'll take,when it'll be done, to what spec and who does it.
I'm control...........not some gobshoitte dealer.
I hope you get this resolved and move on to happier motoring times.

ShiverinEskimo

Thanks dude - you certainly seem to live up to your name.

This is my first venture into buying a car (always been named on the folks yokes) and I have to say I'm pretty close to my worst case scenario. Only took 6 days to get to where I am now.

Sigh. C'est la vie eh?

Slidey

roughan wrote: »

you obviously have not seen many turbos if u think they float in oil
R

From the very link you posted

These small holes enable a high pressure supply of engine oil to form a ‘cushion’ between the turbine shaft and the bearing surfaces. In other words, the turbine shaft is suspended in oil and should not have any metal-to-metal contact.

Hands up here who is a time served mechanic working on 99% forced induction engines... oh wait your hand isn't up:eek: