Ireland's Future is not in Europe

MSporty

After watching the Eurovision tonight im convinced that Ireland's future does not lie in Europe, we just dont have anything in common with the bulk of European peoples, especially the ones further east. We are a small country whose mandate is miniscule in the EU. Norway have the right idea, stay out of the EU but more or less have all the trading privilieges of being in the EU. As an island nation we seem to have alot more with the Island next door !! Stronger trading and cooperation ties with the UK and USA would probably serve us better at this stage. Does anyone else share these opinions?

Red Hand

Well, many US companies use us as a platform or gateway to European markets. If we weren't in the EU, we wouldn't have anything to trade. Just an expensive island nation. There are few truely successful Irish companies that generate wealth in and for Ireland. They just aren't there.

Eurovision is a sh*t contest-don't let it put you off all things European.;)

sink

Are you serious? Pull out of the EU because of a song contest, lol. Well it's probably a better reason than most nationalists will give. I wouldn't call our entry a shining example of Irish taste and culture, it's just a lame song contest.

Being close to the both Europe and the UK & USA are not mutually exclusive. Europe is diverse but we have more that unites us than divides us. Give a proper logical reason to leave the EU and I'll listen but so far no one has come up with a decent one.

MSporty

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Well, many US companies use us as a platform or gateway to European markets. If we weren't in the EU, we wouldn't have anything to trade. Just an expensive island nation. There are few truely successful Irish companies that generate wealth in and for Ireland. They just aren't there.

Eurovision is a sh*t contest-don't let it put you off all things European.;)

Yeah but we can still have trading links with Europe, just like Norway. It still makes me mad to see how our fishing industry has been destroyed by giving out most of our fishing quotas to fleets operating from the European mainland.

mike65

Well the OP has made me smile, cheers

Just vote NO to Lisbon, that'll get it out of your system.

Mike.

MSporty

sink wrote: »

Are you serious? Pull out of the EU because of a song contest, lol. Well it's probably a better reason than most nationalists will give. I wouldn't call our entry a shining example of Irish taste and culture, it's just a lame song contest.

Being close to the both Europe and the UK & USA are not mutually exclusive. Europe is diverse but we have more that unites us than divides us. Give a proper logical reason to leave the EU and I'll listen but so far no one has come up with a decent one.

The main one is that as a small country we dont have feck all of a voting mandate in Europe.

bbam

Surely being in the EU has been good for us overall... It helped bring the Celtic Tiger here, we do owe it some loyalty, even if we're hitting tougher times here.

MSporty

bbam wrote: »

Surely being in the EU has been good for us overall... It helped bring the Celtic Tiger here, we do owe it some loyalty, even if we're hitting tougher times here.

Loyalty for what? Again I cite examples countries who didnt join the EU and still have strong economies. Dont forget for the first 20 years of our membership of the EU, Irelands economy was a basket case. And as history shows us all European alliances eventually break up, so why shouldnt we lead the charge by getting out

Scofflaw

MSporty wrote: »

After watching the Eurovision tonight im convinced that Ireland's future does not lie in Europe, we just dont have anything in common with the bulk of European peoples, especially the ones further east. We are a small country whose mandate is miniscule in the EU. Norway have the right idea, stay out of the EU but more or less have all the trading privilieges of being in the EU. As an island nation we seem to have alot more with the Island next door !! Stronger trading and cooperation ties with the UK and USA would probably serve us better at this stage. Does anyone else share these opinions?

Mm. Norway:

Norway’s relations with the EU are mainly governed by the Agreement on the European Economic Area (EEA). The EEA Agreement is in force since 1.1.1994 and extends the Single Market legislation, with the exception of Agriculture and Fisheries, from the EU Member States to Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein. Through the EEA Agreement, Norway also participates, albeit with no voting rights, in a number of EU Agencies and programmes, covering i.a. enterprise, environment, education and research programmes. Norway also, along with its EEA/EFTA partners, contributes financially to social and economic cohesion in the EU/EEA. Norway is as integrated in European policy and economy as any non-member State can be, and the close EU-Norway relations generally run smoothly.

In other words, Norway accepts all EU legislation bar agriculture and fisheries, but has no ability to vote on that legislation. Iceland. Is that what you're looking for?

cordially,
Scofflaw

MSporty

Scofflaw wrote: »

Mm. Norway:



In other words, Norway accepts all EU legislation bar agriculture and fisheries, but has no ability to vote on that legislation. Iceland. Is that what you're looking for?

cordially,
Scofflaw

thats all well and good, but basically Norway still retain the right to tell the EU to F**k off anytime they want if it doesnt suit, we cant

sink

MSporty wrote: »

The main one is that as a small country we dont have feck all of a voting mandate in Europe.

We have less voting power than the UK, but we have had a lot more influence than the UK in policy making. The main reason is that negotiating and building alliances count more than voting strength. We can do more from inside the EU than from outside. Do you think that just because we won't be in the EU, the EU won't have an impact on us? Look at the impact the EU has had on US businesses which have nothing to do with the EU and it will open your eyes as to how far the reach of the EU goes.

MSporty

sink wrote: »

We have less voting power than the UK, but we have had a lot more influence than the UK in policy making. The main reason is that negotiating and building alliances count more than voting strength. We can do more from inside the EU than from outside. Do you think that just because we won't be in the EU, the EU won't have an impact on us? Look at the impact the EU has had on US businesses which have nothing to do with the EU and it will open your eyes as to how far the reach of the EU goes.

Yeah of course we should still have a strong relationship with the EU even if we are on the outside. The EU still wouldnt have anywhere near the influence worldwide that the US has.

sink

MSporty wrote: »

thats all well and good, but basically Norway still retain the right to tell the EU to F**k off anytime they want if it doesnt suit, we cant

And loose access to the largest market in the world. Who do you think they sell their fish too?

MSporty

sink wrote: »

And loose access to the largest market in the world. Who do you think they sell their fish too?

And Norway play a clever game, thats my point, they have their own independence and access to the EU markets. Best of both worlds

sink

MSporty wrote: »

And Norway play a clever game, thats my point, they have their own independence and access to the EU markets. Best of both worlds

You're sorta missing my point. Norway can't tell the EU to **** off when ever they like, they have to implement the vast bulk of EU market and competition laws without having any say in their formulation.

Scofflaw

MSporty wrote: »

thats all well and good, but basically Norway still retain the right to tell the EU to F**k off anytime they want if it doesnt suit, we cant

Hmm. No, they don't. They are bound by the various treaties they have signed, as are we. They can decide to leave the association the treaties bind them into - such as the EFTA/EEA - but until they do, they have the obligations they signed up to (we're in the same position - if we want to back out of our treaty obligations, we can leave the EU).

Rather more importantly, Norway not only haven't a single veto, but they don't have any voting rights - and no, they can't refuse EU legislation.

What you're suggesting is that Ireland put itself in a position where it has no say whatsoever in the EU, but accepts all its legislation. If that sounds like independence to you, you have a bizarre idea of independence.

cordially,
Scofflaw

MSporty

sink wrote: »

You're sorta missing my point. Norway can't tell the EU to **** off when ever they like, they have to implement the vast bulk of EU market and competition laws without having any say in their formulation.

Thats because it suits them, its only a fraction of the price we pay.

MSporty

Scofflaw wrote: »

Hmm. No, they don't. They are bound by the various treaties they have signed, as are we. They can decide to leave the association the treaties bind them into - such as the EFTA/EEA - but until they do, they have the obligations they signed up to (we're in the same position - if we want to back out of our treaty obligations, we can leave the EU).

Rather more importantly, Norway not only haven't a single veto, but they don't have any voting rights - and no, they can't refuse EU legislation.

What you're suggesting is that Ireland put itself in a position where it has no say whatsoever in the EU, but accepts all its legislation. If that sounds like independence to you, you have a bizarre idea of independence.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Thats crap and you know it, we are deep in the s**t when it comes to the EU. Norway use the EU for economic benefit only and hats off to them for that. I reckon if we left the EU in the morning, the EU as we know it would cease to exist.

Irish and Proud

MSporty wrote: »

After watching the Eurovision tonight im convinced that Ireland's future does not lie in Europe, we just dont have anything in common with the bulk of European peoples, especially the ones further east. We are a small country whose mandate is miniscule in the EU. Norway have the right idea, stay out of the EU but more or less have all the trading privilieges of being in the EU. As an island nation we seem to have alot more with the Island next door !! Stronger trading and cooperation ties with the UK and USA would probably serve us better at this stage. Does anyone else share these opinions?

...and we do have oil - at the moment, it's uneconomical to extract as it lies deep below the ocean's floor, but if the price of oil continues to rise at the current rate, you never know - especially with technology improving all the time. Also, we apparently have enough wind energy potential to generate six times our current electricity needs - so we could become a net energy exporter. Now, I'm not saying we will, but you never know!

Regards!

sink

MSporty wrote: »

Thats because it suits them, its only a fraction of the price we pay.

No it's not because it suits them, it's because they have to if they want to continue to trade with the EU their largest trading partner. Do you think that of the EU passed a new safety standard or law that didn't suit Norway they could just ignore it and all would be hunky dory? No the EU would first fine them and then if they didn't comply they would ban imports. Norway's economy would implode, unemployment would rise and the EU would just look elsewhere to fill the gap.

MSporty

sink wrote: »

No it's not because it suits them, it's because they have to if they want to continue to trade with the EU their largest trading partner. Do you think that of the EU passed a new safety standard or law that didn't suit Norway they could just ignore it and all would be hunky dory? No the EU would first fine them and then if they didn't comply they would ban imports. Norway's economy would implode, unemployment would rise and the EU would just look elsewhere to fill the gap.

New safety standards are hardly make them give up economice ties to the EU, especially when you consider that safety standards in Norway are in the most part, ahead of those of the EU.

Scofflaw

MSporty wrote: »

Thats crap and you know it, we are deep in the s**t when it comes to the EU. Norway use the EU for economic benefit only and hats off to them for that. I reckon if we left the EU in the morning, the EU as we know it would cease to exist.

Well, it's been explained to you - and indeed demonstrated to you - that you're very simply wrong about what you claim. Norway aren't independent of the EU - they implement its legislation, but don't get to vote on it. Your second claim, though, is even weirder. Why would the EU "as we know it" cease to exist?

puzzled,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

MSporty wrote: »

New safety standards are hardly make them give up economice ties to the EU, especially when you consider that safety standards in Norway are in the most part, ahead of those of the EU.

I think that's what's commonly called an "example".

no longer puzzled,
Scofflaw

turgon

Being in EFTA and outside the EU isn't as cosy as it might seem. Iceland is in a depression at the moment. Also the risk of a serious economic crash here is reduced with such close ties to the rest of Europe and a common currency.

DVDMAN

You don't deserve a vote, that's a musical competition, like what the on earth are you on about, omg what a fool

MSporty wrote: »

After watching the Eurovision tonight im convinced that Ireland's future does not lie in Europe, we just dont have anything in common with the bulk of European peoples, especially the ones further east. We are a small country whose mandate is miniscule in the EU. Norway have the right idea, stay out of the EU but more or less have all the trading privilieges of being in the EU. As an island nation we seem to have alot more with the Island next door !! Stronger trading and cooperation ties with the UK and USA would probably serve us better at this stage. Does anyone else share these opinions?

turgon

I think MSporty was implying that we had no cultural links with eastern Europe, as reflected in the outcome of the song contest (which is cultural), and thus he does not see the point in unifying Europe. It is an understandable stance, and one that does not warrant begin called a fool.

MSporty

turgon wrote: »

I think MSporty was implying that we had no cultural links with eastern Europe, as reflected in the outcome of the song contest (which is cultural), and thus he does not see the point in unifying Europe. It is an understandable stance, and one that does not warrant begin called a fool.

Thanks Turgon, thats my point. In future years the accession countries will have a bigger influence over the EU and its policiies, our policy making influence will dwindle away to nothing. Similar analogies can be made to our status within the Eurovision song contest!!

is_that_so

MSporty wrote: »

Similar analogies can be made to our status within the Eurovision song contest!!

Specious in the extreme is all I can say. I hope this is not the latest No argument because it's not what would be considered a winning argument. I suggest you would benefit from some serious reading on Europe, what the EU is and with respect not base your analysis on some tacky TV nonsense.

dalkener

As I've said in previous posts, people on here need some perspective. Most of us would have ended up working in factories and building sites in Germany/Australia/Uk/USA etc... if it weren't for us being part of the EU. Now it might be our turn to put something back in and all I here are selfish comments about our neutrality, corporate tax rates etc.. Maybe Romania and Bulgaria would like a dig out?? I'll be voting yes to put Europe were it should be, leaders in technology, morality, economically and if it comes to it militarily.

Kev_ps3

MSporty wrote: »

After watching the Eurovision tonight im convinced that Ireland's future does not lie in Europe, we just dont have anything in common with the bulk of European peoples, especially the ones further east. We are a small country whose mandate is miniscule in the EU. Norway have the right idea, stay out of the EU but more or less have all the trading privilieges of being in the EU. As an island nation we seem to have alot more with the Island next door !! Stronger trading and cooperation ties with the UK and USA would probably serve us better at this stage. Does anyone else share these opinions?

I agree.

sink

I have made good friends from France, Germany, Holland, Spain, Poland and Lithuania. Their interest are broadly the same, we listen to the same music wear similar styles of clothes go see the same films and have much the same opinions. I'm pretty sure all of them thought 99% of the eurovision entries were pretty terrible too. Their culture is based on the same values. There may be difference but they are small in comparison to our similarities. There are general differences in culture between a south Dubliner and a north. Do you propose a split in the county to better reflect those differences?