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Ireland's Future is not in Europe

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    #32
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    MSporty wrote: »
    The EU still wouldnt have anywhere near the influence worldwide that the US has.

    As things stand, yes, but what with the sliding dollar, the total unpreparedness of the US (and Ireland for that matter) for oil at $200+ per barrel and the emergence of China and India that could change pretty soon ...


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    #33
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Irish and Proud wrote: »
    ...and we do have oil - at the moment, it's uneconomical to extract as it lies deep below the ocean's floor, but if the price of oil continues to rise at the current rate, you never know - especially with technology improving all the time. Also, we apparently have enough wind energy potential to generate six times our current electricity needs - so we could become a net energy exporter. Now, I'm not saying we will, but you never know!

    Regards!

    Not true ... some small amounts have been discovered by exploratory drilling, but large deposits are still unproven. Anyway some groups like the Shell to Shore people will put a stop to it if it is discovered ... but I digress.


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    #34
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    A couple of points raised here todate.
    Some people reckon we will do as well as Norway when the oil deposits resting within our waters become economical.
    Accept we won't since certain ministers gave away the rights.
    Norway were much cleverer and AFAIK they affectively funded the exploration and then sold the rights to the oil companies.
    We just gave them away, probably in my opinion for a brown paper envelope.
    A lot of people always quote how Shell gas will benefit us so much. AFAIK it really only benefits the shareholders of Shell.

    A lot of people reckon we have contributed nothing to the EU down the years but if you look at the fishing rights given away to allow us benefit from CAP we have indeed given something back to EU, providing great benefit to the Spanish fishing industry.

    But the OP does have a point, we are a small little island country on the edge of Europe. If majority voting is the order of the day, a point may be reached where a course of action is beneficial for the majority of Europe but very much to our detriment.
    What happens then ?

    I am not allowed discuss …



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    #35
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    MSporty wrote: »
    After watching the Eurovision tonight im convinced that Ireland's future does not lie in Europe...
    You're sooooooo right; we need to take Dustin off the European stage and thrust him onto the GLOBAL stage!!!
    MSporty wrote: »
    It still makes me mad to see how our fishing industry has been destroyed by giving out most of our fishing quotas to fleets operating from the European mainland.
    The global fishing industry is being destroyed by over-fishing - turns out there aren't plenty more fish in the sea...
    MSporty wrote: »
    Again I cite examples countries who didnt join the EU and still have strong economies.
    You gave one example; Norway. Norway has/had rather large fossil fuel deposits. We don't.
    MSporty wrote: »
    Thats crap and you know it, we are deep in the s**t when it comes to the EU. I reckon if we left the EU in the morning, the EU as we know it would cease to exist.
    Care to elaborate?
    turgon wrote: »
    I think MSporty was implying that we had no cultural links with eastern Europe, as reflected in the outcome of the song contest (which is cultural), and thus he does not see the point in unifying Europe. It is an understandable stance, and one that does not warrant begin called a fool.
    His opinion is certainly foolish. Any political opinion based on a puppet show is an opinion not worth having.
    jmayo wrote: »
    If majority voting is the order of the day, a point may be reached where a course of action is beneficial for the majority of Europe but very much to our detriment.
    What happens then ?
    It is inevitable that motions will be passed that are not 100% beneficial to Ireland, in the same way that motions are passed in the Dáil that may not 100% beneficial to a particular part of the country; such is political life. It's all about compromise. You gave a good example of such a scenario yourself, i.e. fishing quotas.


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    #36
    R0C0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 112 ✭✭R0C0


    I find it funny how so many people on the Yes side of the campaign justify the QMV by saying how fair and democratic it is, but they're the same people who don't give a damn about the citizens of the other 26 who don't get a choice on Lisbon.

    ...Just an observation.


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    #37
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    R0C0 wrote: »
    I find it funny how so many people on the Yes side of the campaign justify the QMV by saying how fair and democratic it is, but they're the same people who don't give a damn about the citizens of the other 26 who don't get a choice on Lisbon.

    ...Just an observation.

    ...and an incorrect one.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #38
    lmtduffy
    Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭lmtduffy


    I find it funny how so many people on the Yes side of the campaign justify the QMV by saying how fair and democratic it is, but they're the same people who don't give a damn about the citizens of the other 26 who don't get a choice on Lisbon.

    ...Just an observation.

    And with that logic every decision made with out referendum is undemocratic and unfair?

    or is it possible that society has developed different systems of governing themselves,
    bear in mind the citizens of those 26 countries participate in there systems of governance and this is where they have arrived.

    Democracy and governance are not the same,
    democracy is a principle of western governance,
    parliamentary representation is the method that that principle is practiced.


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    #39
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    R0C0 wrote: »
    I find it funny how so many people on the Yes side of the campaign justify the QMV by saying how fair and democratic it is, but they're the same people who don't give a damn about the citizens of the other 26 who don't get a choice on Lisbon.

    ...Just an observation.
    I find it funny that so many people on the 'No' side of the campaign feel that every other member state should be forced to ratify the treaty in the same manner we are, yet at the same time, they deem the EU an undemocratic institution.

    ...Just an observation.


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    #40
    MSporty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭MSporty


    I am thinking some of the people that have posted on this thread have political agendas, are probably involved in the Lisbon campaign too.


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    #41
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    MSporty wrote: »
    I am thinking some of the people that have posted on this thread have political agendas, are probably involved in the Lisbon campaign too.

    Who exactly are you talking about?


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    #42
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    sink wrote:
    MSporty wrote: »
    I am thinking some of the people that have posted on this thread have political agendas, are probably involved in the Lisbon campaign too.
    Who exactly are you talking about?

    Weeeellll...one giveaway might be that they're new users who've only joined up since the start of the referendum 'campaign', and are specifically interested in Lisbon?

    Alternatively, we could assume that people are generally honest?

    just a suggestion,
    Scofflaw


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    #43
    MSporty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭MSporty


    ha ha ha,No it is!


    cordially,

    Msporty


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    #44
    thecaptain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭thecaptain


    Lets leave Europe.


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    #45
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    thecaptain wrote: »
    Lets leave Europe.
    Geographically or politically? The former might be a bit tricky...

    Actually, I can see that being used by the ‘No’ campaign the next time we are asked to vote on anything pertaining to the EU: “Ireland can negotiate to join another continent – VOTE NO!”


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    #46
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    MSporty wrote: »
    After watching the Eurovision tonight im convinced that Ireland's future does not lie in Europe, we just dont have anything in common with the bulk of European peoples, especially the ones further east. We are a small country whose mandate is miniscule in the EU. Norway have the right idea, stay out of the EU but more or less have all the trading privilieges of being in the EU. As an island nation we seem to have alot more with the Island next door !! Stronger trading and cooperation ties with the UK and USA would probably serve us better at this stage. Does anyone else share these opinions?

    I've not posted at all on the Lisbon treaty discussion, although I did have some issues with the treaty. But what you're saying is mental, yes there I said it.


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    #47
    Zube
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭Zube


    djpbarry wrote: »
    “Ireland can negotiate to join another continent – VOTE NO!”

    I vote we join Antarctica!

    1) We'll have the biggest population of any Antarctic nation, and can bully everyone else.

    2) Once we leave the EU, we'll have stacks of unemployed folks to make a cheap labour pool, so we'll be a very inviting place for transnational companies to set up to access Antarctic markets.

    3) We'll have the best climate for a change.

    4) Penguins!


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    #48
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Zube wrote: »
    We'll have (potentially) the best climate for a change.
    ;)


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    #49
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Another old thread

    the comparison with Norway (especially over a year later) is hilarious

    :D


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    #50
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    obviously our future is in europe. WHere is all the money going to come from?!

    But it should be europe on our own terms, which should be a NO to lisbon, as voted by the people in 2008.


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    #51
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    obviously our future is in europe. WHere is all the money going to come from?!

    But it should be europe on our own terms, which should be a NO to lisbon, as voted by the people in 2008.

    and what terms would that be

    ?


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    #52
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    and what terms would that be

    ?
    Max Power1 wrote: »
    on our own terms, which should be a NO to lisbon, as voted by the people in 2008.


    qft


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    #53
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    qft

    Yeah what terms? And it would be great if the stuff you'd like to change was actually in the treaty.


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    #54
    OldJay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    MSporty wrote: »
    Norway have the right idea, stay out of the EU but more or less have all the trading privilieges of being in the EU

    *sigh*
    I do wish folk would quit comparing Norway with Ireland. They are completely different cases. Norway's economy is based upon its Oil Reserves above all else, its infrastructure is supported by its high taxation and its domestic markets are protected by import duties.
    Ireland has nothing anywhere near the capacity to do this.
    The EU is also Ireland's largest export market and it enjoys trade incentives that Norway does not except in high importance commodities such as oil and energy derivatives.

    Ireland and its situation is NOTHING like Norway's and NEVER WILL BE.


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