Bus Full..and a hour to wait for the next one

Propellerhead

Dublin Bus reinforced itself yesterday as my choice of transport of last resort.

The 2220 67a went sailing full past the Wellington Quay stop leaving a number of Celbridge bound travellers stranded. I ended up on the following 26 to Palmerstown and gave up waiting for the next 67a and got a taxi back to Celbridge instead.

In addition, the trains have been curtailed at weekends so we're still living in the 1980s as far as our public transport providers are concerned at the weekends. I won't be back in town in a hurry for a night out.

corktina

are you complaining to DB? you should otherwise they might not know there is a problem....put it in writing too...

KC61

Propellerhead wrote: »

Dublin Bus reinforced itself yesterday as my choice of transport of last resort.

The 2220 67a went sailing full past the Wellington Quay stop leaving a number of Celbridge bound travellers stranded. I ended up on the following 26 to Palmerstown and gave up waiting for the next 67a and got a taxi back to Celbridge instead.

In addition, the trains have been curtailed at weekends so we're still living in the 1980s as far as our public transport providers are concerned at the weekends. I won't be back in town in a hurry for a night out.

Dublin Bus are precluded from making any improvements to any Lucan QBC services by the Department of Transport pending the current EU investigation of subsidies that potentially discriminate against private operators.

There were plans for much improved services in that area, but they were not shot down by the Department.

Rawr

KC61 wrote: »

Dublin Bus are precluded from making any improvements to any Lucan QBC services by the Department of Transport pending the current EU investigation of subsidies that potentially discriminate against private operators.

There were plans for much improved services in that area, but they were not shot down by the Department.

Which really sucks, because that effects Leixlip and Maynooth as well, and Mortons (& others) don't seem to be setting up shop there.
The 66b hasn't had a Sunday service in all it's years and the 66d is well...2 busses, 1 in, 1 out. The rest of the 66s don't seem to be changing much either, and more is needed.

The DoT should really put some kind of time-limit in regarding setting up services in this area, and if no one bites, let DB in and improve stuff.

bk

What you guys describe here is how most of the Cork bus service is run.

Full buses go sailing by and another hours wait for the next bus is the norm in Cork on many routes.

godtabh

Propellerhead wrote: »

Dublin Bus reinforced itself yesterday as my choice of transport of last resort.

The 2220 67a went sailing full past the Wellington Quay stop leaving a number of Celbridge bound travellers stranded. I ended up on the following 26 to Palmerstown and gave up waiting for the next 67a and got a taxi back to Celbridge instead.

In addition, the trains have been curtailed at weekends so we're still living in the 1980s as far as our public transport providers are concerned at the weekends. I won't be back in town in a hurry for a night out.

Its a Saturday night. Buses are gona be busy at that time of night with people trying to get home.

I'm fairly limited in getting home at that time of night but I always manage to get back home.

Sounds like a once off to be honest. I havent seen that happen before. With the match and the munster match on last night there was probably a lot more people getting that bus home

Heart

Its a pity really, not only are DB not allowed to increase the service, even adding a second bus to follow that full one would cause trouble.

The stance inspector most likely knew of the level of passengers but isn't allowed to direct another bus to follow the full one...

This is all because of objections by another operator who curtailed its off peak and weekend service... The overall loser, the passenger! How can another operator who isn't willing to provide a proper alternative be allowed to object!

MiniD

kearnsr wrote: »

Its a Saturday night. Buses are gona be busy at that time of night with people trying to get home.

I'm fairly limited in getting home at that time of night but I always manage to get back home.

Sounds like a once off to be honest. I havent seen that happen before.

It's not uncommon for buses on the 66/67 group to be fairly full right up to the last bus. Amazingly, the operator, Mortons, who objected to an increase of buses on the Lucan QBC actually withdrew their evening service last year. So not only are Mortons preventing Dublin Bus from increasing their service, but they are allowed to scale back their own timetable without anybody replacing the service.

I'm not sure how true it is, but I've heard this same operator has objected to Dublin Bus from using the larger tri-axel double deckers on the 66/67 routes.

L1011

Mortons also don't operate a service to Maynooth, despite being BASED HERE, and seriously adversely affect the service Dublin Bus can operate to here due to them all serving Lucan and some Celbridge...

x in the city

public transports sucks.

the main reason for owning a car.

godtabh

I get the 66 alot and have never not been able to get on it late at night be it the last few or the nite links

Rawr

I would put in that the OP's incident is not a once off. It does not happen all the time, true, but the fact is that due to a limited number of buses in the weekend evening, everyone is cramming into that one single bus you can manage to get.

If there was increased frequency, then this would not be such a major problem. There would be plenty to choose from and the load would be evenly distributed, making pickups possible in most cases.

I really hate Mortons for creating this problem. For a long time I thought that DB were solely to blame then I found out about the situation. For them to object to the Triaxles and increased frequency is just plain sinister. Maynooth and Leixlip could really use the increased capacity. Yet, as MYOB has pointed out, despite the fact that they are based in Maynooth, they won't run a commuter service for that town or Leixlip.

HydeRoad

Do you really think that if Mortons weren't there, Dublin Bus would be rushing in to run more buses to Celbridge late at night?

Mortons applied to run a half hourly frequency late at night, with a last bus running later than Dublin Bus. Those buses would have never paid for themselves for months, having to be subsidised by the profitable peak hour services. Any operator who makes the commitment to late night services, knows that.

The problem was, that Dublin Bus ran extra buses over and beyond their licensed allocation during the peak hours, specifically to run buses directly in front of the private operator's bus, and take it's business. Inspectors sat in cars, timing the Mortons buses, and radioing extra buses in at specific times to flood the competing service. Mortons complained, and the Department stopped Dublin Bus from doing this. The Department restricts Dublin Bus from putting on extra buses, specifically because Dublin Bus abused the privilege. While the Lucan Road was flooded with empty buses at one time, Ballyfermot was bereft of buses, with nothing like the number of buses needed in that area. Where were the buses? State funded buses, used to run half empty or empty in competition with a small private operator. The Department of Transport can be reasonable enough. It is Dublin Bus who are spinning the line that west Dublin is without proper services. The private operators are perfectly willing to operate alongside Dublin Bus. They even offered to integrate the services. But Dublin Bus do not want them there, because they force change on an institution that does not wish to change.

There were no express services at all into the city centre, until Mortons began running them over twenty years ago. As soon as that happened, Dublin Bus introduced City Speed services in competition.

There were no proper bus services into the city centre from Dublin Airport until Aircoach began operating. Suddenly Dublin Bus were able to increase the number of services there almost fourfold.

There were no express services from Swords to the city until Swords Express began operating. Suddenly Dublin Bus were screaming about buses not being allowed into the tunnel.

In every case, Dublin Bus do not provide the service, and when somebody else does, Dublin Bus runs wailing to the Department.

Dublin Bus drivers at one stage used the dirtiest of tactics on the road, parking every single spare bus they had in lines along the city bus stops, to prevent waiting passengers from seeing the approach of a private bus. Individual bus drivers would drive their buses like battering rams at private buses, to intimidate the other drivers and try to force them into accident situations. Dublin Bus drivers drove on footpaths, stopped their buses at forty five degree angles at bus stops, parked buses in front and behind private buses to block them in, and raced private buses on open roads, with passengers on board.

We read that these were the type of things that happened in Dublin in the 1920s among independent operators, and that this would befall us again if privatisation were allowed. Well lo and behold, it is happening, and it is employees of the state funded operator that are practicing it.

Mortons pulled the entire late night service, because the company would have collapsed overnight had it not done so. The revenue from the peak hour services were so badly affected by Dublin Bus activities, that there was no money to pay to build up off peak business. Dublin Bus knew that the private operator would face difficulties, and their practice is to drive them into the ground financially.

Total privatisation running unchecked is the last thing Dublin needs. But equally, leaving the future of Dublin's transport in the hands of a state monolith is no answer either. What is needed are the best elements of both worlds, and that can only be had under the eye of an independent regulator. Dublin Bus are entirely in favour of a regulator, as long as they can BE the regulator. This of course is a joke, as much as simply handing state assets over to private enterprise would be.

The answer, as usual, lies somewhere in the middle. Unfortunately, this government's track record at appointing regulatory agencies is pretty rueful. Anyone for a hospital bed? Anyone for a taxi?

L1011

I distinctly remember there being 41X services - the most express Dublin Bus have ever and will ever operate - before the Swords Express. And I don't remember Mortons being around more than 20 years ago and I've lived in or around North Kildare for most of that time period!

And the fallout situation still exists - Mortons appear to have interest in providing services to the town their buses are based in, which can't get any improvement in services due to their actions. Thankfully Irish Rail rejigged stuff a bit so we no longer have the 'dead zone' of about 50 minutes mid-morning where you couldn't get out of Maynooth without a car.

Propellerhead

kearnsr wrote: »

Its a Saturday night. Buses are gona be busy at that time of night with people trying to get home.

I'm fairly limited in getting home at that time of night but I always manage to get back home.

Sounds like a once off to be honest. I havent seen that happen before. With the match and the munster match on last night there was probably a lot more people getting that bus home

So, basically you're saying "tough sh1t". Leixlip has a better service and there have been times when I've walked from Leixlip to Celbridge due in either the 67x being full or not wanting to hang around Westmoreland Street for two hours.

Thanks for your honesty but I'm not sure how it addresses the issue. I got home eventually but it cost me and I'm sure others were less fortunate than I was to have the money to get home at a reasonable hour.

AlekSmart

The entire Lucan Road Corridor mess is something which makes a total ass of the Governments expensive T21 PR campaign.

Unless and until the Department of Transport returns to dealing with its own Public Transport remit then it should desist from wasting public funds on publicity campaigns which are at best stretching the truth if not downright misleading :mad:

It may also be somewhat unfair to single out Paul Morton in the singular as I suspect the much vaunted expansion of his Circle Line operation last year was far more to do with satisfying certain outside investment interests than his own gut feeling on the situation

Almost in parallel with the CL 1,2 + 3 upgrading came a somewhat more visible role for the Barton operation which I think is based in Maynooth and has extensive contacts with many operators and manufacturers from "outside the juristiction"

This makes me think that the Morton company today may be far less a "family" operation and somewhat more of a shell or stalking horse for outside interests.

All speculation on my part I readily admit but even more of a reason for the Department of Transport to get a grip on itself and attend to fulfilling its responsibilities to the travelling public.

The Departments stance is currently totally fixated upon attempting to second guess whatever Legal Challenge is progressing(slowly) through the EU machine and which may or MAY NOT result in a verdict for the plaintiffs.

I firmly believe that the Lucan Corridor may well turn out to be the rock upon which some very senior Civil Servants may yet perish....even the better looking one`s !!

Propellerhead

Well Alek as you know we now currently have a situation which is neither the fish of privatisation nor the flesh of a public sector monopoly.

Public transport west of the city caters for Sean and Mary Public Servant, whose hours are entirely predictable and who are wrapped up in their cosy homes with a nice cup of tea just in time for Fair City. The rest of us who often have unpredictable finishing times end up doing a trade off between days we know we are working to time and others we have a hunch we may be working late. My experiences with the bus and the cavalier way trains have been cancelled on the south western commuter services means that it is an extremely rare night on the weekend that I "allow" myself to meet friends in town for a drink.

Incidents like yesterday reinforce my view that it is an unacceptable gamble to depend on the bus as a means of getting home out of an increasingly hostile city centre. That is no fault of individual bus drivers but it most certainly is a failure of public transport planning and arguably a failure of Conyngham Road garage to anticipate demand on a night that was well flagged in advance as having a Dublin based soccer international.

HydeRoad

I worked for Dublin Bus some years ago. The great Dublin Bus monolith is at it's peak of operation between the hours of 7am to 5pm, Monday to Friday. That is the hours at which senior management abound in the garages, and at which at any moment a divisional manager may pop his head round the door of the control room for any one of a hundred different reasons.

After all the evening peak hour buses depart the garages by 5pm, senior management have gone home, all the buses are gone out of the yards, and a deathly hush descends on the garage, which becomes like a ghost town, till the first of the evening 'bogies' start to drift back to park up for the night.

In many cases, evening rosters simply were not covered. Many of the 'first half' evening duties were covered as overtime by early or bogie drivers. In those cases, the first half of an evening duty would be covered, but the second half not. I worked in Donnybrook Garage. The most frequent service in the depot, and indeed the city, was of course the 46A, with a ten minute headway even at night. Of course, there would be a full complement of buses on the prestige 46A route. Missing buses would be taken off lesser routes like the 45 to Bray, which at best had maybe a 40 or 50 minute gap between departures.

Now logic says that a bus is less likely to be missed when there are more buses every ten minutes, than from a route where the next one won't be for another hour. The 45 was notorious for long delays and gaps between buses, and I dreaded getting the tap on the shoulder at 7pm asking me do do a late overtime on the 45, as I knew I was in for a tongue lashing from everyone on the route for the terrible service. One night I was on another badly served route, the 18. I was the first 18 through Ballyfermot in over two hours. I almost left the job that very night, over the abuse I got from customers. But no buses missing from the heavily served 46A.

In instances like those, it was not uncommon, indeed regular, for just one controller to cover three radio channels and all the evening buses out of Donnybrook. So you wouldn't want to be getting mugged, because you could go an hour without response from the control room. Evening buses and evening customers could go to hell, the garage was on tickover.

Perhaps I am being unfair, and it has improved in the meantime, but somehow I doubt it. And any progressive people in the company now have their work cut out to overhaul the inefficiency and lethargy of the previous incumbents in the job.

This is the company that would not stand for private enterprise coming in and offering another way.

HydeRoad

MYOB wrote: »

I distinctly remember there being 41X services - the most express Dublin Bus have ever and will ever operate - before the Swords Express. And I don't remember Mortons being around more than 20 years ago and I've lived in or around North Kildare for most of that time period!

And the fallout situation still exists - Mortons appear to have interest in providing services to the town their buses are based in, which can't get any improvement in services due to their actions. Thankfully Irish Rail rejigged stuff a bit so we no longer have the 'dead zone' of about 50 minutes mid-morning where you couldn't get out of Maynooth without a car.

My apologies, of course there were 41Xs. How many were there, though? The 141 route is the controversial one, of course, being routed through the port tunnel. And it's funny how Dublin Bus started wailing that they had a new route and couldn't operate it, AFTER the private buses started running?

For the record, the residents of Celbridge twenty years ago lobbied and pleaded with CIE for more buses to Celbridge and were ignored. They then approached Paul Morton, who readily agreed to provide the service CIE wouldn't. It was initially operated by luxury coaches, far more comfortable and direct than the old 67 bus service. Immediately after, the first City Speed services were instigated, the 66X and 67X, in response to the competition. It took a kick in the pants from a private operator for that logical progression.

Mortons applied for an all day clock face half hourly frequency between Celbridge and the city. Had that gone ahead as normal, the logical progression would have been increased frequencies, and links to Leixlip and Maynooth, on a step by step basis. Not to replace Dublin Bus, but to complement the service, and try to do it better. It would have to be better to win over the business.

What happened is that Dublin Bus threw every spanner and torch and jack handle at Mortons, both officially and unofficially, either to get them refused, and if not, to grind them financially out of business. I've already stated some of what went on. Dublin Bus turned their back on the private sector at meetings about ticketing integration. But even on an individual basis, there was dirty business - whether it was officially sanctioned or not, will not be clear. A bus inspector sat in his car outside the Mortons depot one morning, watching and logging the buses going in and out. On other occasions, drivers reported officials at every single stop along the route, counting how many passengers got on private buses. On other occasions, inspectors got ON Mortons bus, cap in hand, with Dublin Bus logo pointed at the driver, paid their fare, and travelled on Mortons bus. Inspectors at busy stops in the city actually shouted at passengers to get off the buses. They were doing nothing illegal, but on taxpayers money, it sure stinks.

Not to mention the kind of appalling and criminal behaviour of a small number of individual drivers, totally unsanctioned, I'm sure, where drivers would almost cause accidents on the road, to make some kind of point. Like the Dublin Bus driver who overtook a Morton bus at speed on College Green one afternoon, right at the narrow bit. He drove right up against the Mortons bus, put his nearside mirror in front of the Mortons offside mirror, and when the mirrors were almost locked together, he jammed his brakes hard, in order to cause the Mortons bus to break his mirror off, and be the cause of a fuss. The Mortons driver was sharp and avoided the incident. Another Dublin Bus squeezed up the inside of a Mortons Bus on Westmoreland Street, and when the lights went green, he raced forward, mounted the footpath which was absolutely crowded with pedestrians, and when he got inside the Mortons bus, jammed on his brakes, in the hopes that the Mortons bus would crash into HIM. Again the Mortons driver avoided the incident. Another Mortons bus was pulling out of a bus stop. He was indicating and started moving as a Dublin Bus behind indicated left to pull in. The Dublin Bus accelerated, overtook, and then jammed on outside him, blocking the road, well past his stop at this stage, and immediately opened the doors letting people out onto the road in front of the Mortons bus who had to jam on to avoid hitting someone. The list goes on.

All of this kind of trouble faced the private company on a daily basis, which resulted in takings going down, and plans having to be shelved. The company is now in the unenviable position of having applied for a licence it now cannot expediently operate due to the aggressive state operator, while the state operator itself is hamstrung by legislation enforced strictly because of it's own underhanded actions. While the people of Celbridge especially, but other districts too, do not know who to blame for the rotten bus service. Everyone has a hand in the mess, but it would be nice for people to be a little bit better informed before making judgement.

godtabh

Propellerhead wrote: »

Public transport west of the city caters for Sean and Mary Public Servant, whose hours are entirely predictable and who are wrapped up in their cosy homes with a nice cup of tea just in time for Fair City. The rest of us who often have unpredictable finishing times end up doing a trade off between days we know we are working to time and others we have a hunch we may be working late. My experiences with the bus and the cavalier way trains have been cancelled on the south western commuter services means that it is an extremely rare night on the weekend that I "allow" myself to meet friends in town for a drink.

Thats a load of crap.

I've been going to college, working or what ever in Dublin for nearly 10 years and what you describe happens on the very rare occasions.

I dont work a typical 9-5. I go in early some days. Go home later others. From day to day I dont know what time I would be heading home at but at the end of the day I know when my train is or my bus and always manage to get it.

The service would definatley be improved but it cant and thats not the fault of DB.

markpb

kearnsr wrote: »

I've been going to college, working or what ever in Dublin for nearly 10 years and what you describe happens on the very rare occasions. I dont work a typical 9-5. I go in early some days. Go home later others. From day to day I dont know what time I would be heading home at but at the end of the day I know when my train is or my bus and always manage to get it.

If you don't know what time you'll be leaving at how do you manage to "make" your bus? Surely you just go to the stop and wait for the next one. That's fine and dandy if the next one isn't full or if the timetable is reasonable frequent. What if you live on a bus that drops to 30 - 50 minute frequencies outside of peak hour?

L1011

HydeRoad - I've never seen see DB drivers "interfering" with Mortons evening and weekend services.

The services which were never advertised and then suddenly stopped. Its almost as if they don't actually want to run them...

Its clear they can't actually provide evening and weekend services or services to Maynooth themselves and they are directly responsible for there not being additional services provided by DB during these times.

godtabh

markpb wrote: »

If you don't know what time you'll be leaving at how do you manage to "make" your bus? Surely you just go to the stop and wait for the next one. That's fine and dandy if the next one isn't full or if the timetable is reasonable frequent. What if you live on a bus that drops to 30 - 50 minute frequencies outside of peak hour?

The bus as a time table.

Its not hard to work out what time you would have to leave to get a certain bus.

This may mean you stay in work a bit longer. Or go a bit earlier but its not rocket sceience.

TirEoghain

Heart wrote: »

Its a pity really, not only are DB not allowed to increase the service, even adding a second bus to follow that full one would cause trouble.

QUOTE]

Last night there were a load of 45's sitting outside the RDS heading into town, 6 or 7 buses sitting there for taking the people into town from the Springsteen gig. Would DB get in trouble for this, or is this a sever example of bunching by telling all the drivers of all the services in the last 3 hours to wait til 11 before leaving the RDS into town, and changing any passengers already on the buses over to the 7/4/4A?

I was susprised to see so many buses showing 45, as any time I have seen buses going into town from a gig before, they were usually specials with the deistination screen showing this too.

Heart

45 was probably chosen for its generic '45 City Centre'... This probably would cause a problem as there is not competition on this corridor, DB may have amde the DoT aware of their intention to provide extra buses for after the gig.

The 141 route is the controversial one, of course, being routed through the port tunnel. And it's funny how Dublin Bus started wailing that they had a new route and couldn't operate it, AFTER the private buses started running?

Just to clear up what HydeRoad said above, Dublin Bus applied in October 2006 to run the 141 which does NOT operate via the port tunnel, this route is like the 128, 140 & 151, a new direct high frequency route to operate along a QBC, this one being the Swords QBC via Santry & Drumcondra.

The current state of play regarding the 141 is that the DoT won't license the service, but DB can apply separately to run it as a fully commercial route.

AlekSmart

Yes indeed both Heart and Hyde Rd have accurately described the REALLY interesting bit of politicking going on between the Department of Transport (presumably,although not necessarily,with the Ministers knowledge) and Bus Atha Cliath.

The Department initially used the 41X vs Swords Express as a reason to refuse the 141 licence application.
This only held water until the actual routing of the 141 was publicised and its non-use of the DP Tunnel emerged.

Now the Department are using an equally spurious although infinitely more sinister Public Service Obligation arguement as a reason for keeping as many North County Dublin residents/visitors OFF public transport as it can.

The somewhat embarrassing element of this which has,as yet escaped the notice of the media is that in order to secure funding for it`s 100 ? ,200?, 350?, EXTRA buses,Bus Atha Cliath had to submit a FULL business plan in minute detail to the DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT outlining where EXACTLY these EXTRA resources were to be deployed.

Grand,sez Fred...Some far sighted Civil Servant,based upon the information thus supplied,then sanctions the purchase of the Buses.
Great tumult erupts in the North County as Public Transport appears to be on the up..huzzah and three cheers for jolly old Bertie shout the citizenry :pac:

Well...what happened next ranks with the draining of the Shannon and TB eradication as a good enough reason for the re-introduction of Capital Punishment for Incompetence.

The SAME dept of Transport which sanctioned the purchase of the extra vehicles then refused the licences necessary to operate the major routes as specified in the Business Plan.

With the passage of time the company has managed to get some of the routes and some hastily arranged "non-contentious" substitutes up and running and as a result has managed to get MOST (but not all) of the EXTRA vehicles into service.

BUT!,the 141 remains stalled as the Senior Officials responsible for route licencing refuse point blank to accept that there is CURRENTLY a serious need for a route such as the 141 (Fully Accessible High Capacity Low Floor,Operating to a high frequency, along an expensively upgraded QBC 7 days a week).

At this point in time the credibility of the Department of Transport and particularly the senior officers in charge of its operational decision making process (If such thing exists) is pretty much in tatters.

No amount of "Nice" expensive T21 PR campaigning can come close to explaining to citizens why a Government Department is being allowed to firstly ignore,then delay before finally frustrating Bus Atha Cliath`s efforts because of a percieved Departmental imperative to protect the interests of a private operator which is operating a niche service along a totally different route alignment

It also appears that the senior officials of the DoT do not feel the need to offer any explanation to the North County Dublin folk (or anybody else) for this bizzzarre behaviour....the only recourse I can suggest is to strap a few senior Civil Servants to a Tumbril and have them drawn through the streets of Swords whilst handing out rotten fruit to the inhabitants ahead of their arrival....one probably would`nt get answers,but one would get SATISFACTION

Marathon Man

HydeRoad wrote: »

Perhaps I am being unfair, and it has improved in the meantime, but somehow I doubt it.

You are right. It hasn't improved. The 18 which runs near me is a complete joke of a service. Sure doesn't it run through Ballyfermot. It doesn't matter that its crap because the people here have no real say anyway. I cycle instead. I have the 18 to thank for years of fitness.

HydeRoad

kearnsr wrote: »

Thats a load of crap.

I've been going to college, working or what ever in Dublin for nearly 10 years and what you describe happens on the very rare occasions.

I dont work a typical 9-5. I go in early some days. Go home later others. From day to day I dont know what time I would be heading home at but at the end of the day I know when my train is or my bus and always manage to get it.

The service would definatley be improved but it cant and thats not the fault of DB.

Er, excuse me?

Why can't it be improved? Do explain why. Have you even read some of my earlier posts in this thread?

godtabh

HydeRoad wrote: »

Er, excuse me?

Why can't it be improved? Do explain why. Have you even read some of my earlier posts in this thread?

they are limited to what level of service they can provide by the private operaters

HydeRoad

Where is the private competition on route 18? Where is the private competition on route 45? Where is the private competition on route 75? Where is the private competition on route 76? Where is the private competition on route 79? What is stopping Dublin Bus from improving these routes?

All of these are disgracefully run services for years, hamstrung yes by appalling traffic conditions, but no effort was ever made to make them more appealing to the travelling public, and they are wholly unreliable.

I GUARANTEE you if a private operator were to appear on route 18, which is highly unlikely for many reasons, but if it were, you would see Dublin Bus trying their damnedest to flood that route with state funded buses, and wailing that the private operator was taking their business.

Dublin Bus are subsidised to run buses where it would otherwise be unviable to do so. Instead, Dublin Bus use state funding to run private enterprise off the economic routes, while neglecting the routes they are subsidised to operate. You only hear Dublin Bus complaining about Swords, Lucan and the airport, the districts where private enterprise is showing them up. You never hear Dublin Bus complaining about their customers in districts that do not have a choice of bus.

Dublin Bus won't improve the service. They are still operating buses to 1950s operating practices. It takes a great big kick up the backside from private enterprise to make them improve anything. And then it is only by kicking and screaming.

I am all for state run bus services, but failing the state operator providing adequate service, I am all for private enterprise giving them a kick up the posterior to do so.

You cannot make throwaway comments without substantiating your point.

godtabh

HydeRoad wrote: »

Where is the private competition on route 18? Where is the private competition on route 45? Where is the private competition on route 75? Where is the private competition on route 76? Where is the private competition on route 79? What is stopping Dublin Bus from improving these routes?

All of these are disgracefully run services for years, hamstrung yes by appalling traffic conditions, but no effort was ever made to make them more appealing to the travelling public, and they are wholly unreliable.

I GUARANTEE you if a private operator were to appear on route 18, which is highly unlikely for many reasons, but if it were, you would see Dublin Bus trying their damnedest to flood that route with state funded buses, and wailing that the private operator was taking their business.

Dublin Bus are subsidised to run buses where it would otherwise be unviable to do so. Instead, Dublin Bus use state funding to run private enterprise off the economic routes, while neglecting the routes they are subsidised to operate. You only hear Dublin Bus complaining about Swords, Lucan and the airport, the districts where private enterprise is showing them up. You never hear Dublin Bus complaining about their customers in districts that do not have a choice of bus.

Dublin Bus won't improve the service. They are still operating buses to 1950s operating practices. It takes a great big kick up the backside from private enterprise to make them improve anything. And then it is only by kicking and screaming.

I am all for state run bus services, but failing the state operator providing adequate service, I am all for private enterprise giving them a kick up the posterior to do so.

You cannot make throwaway comments without substantiating your point.

All my posts reddered to routes along the N4. I've wasnt refering to anything else.

Out of interest how many private operators run along public service routes?

HydeRoad

Don't be put off by me, I'm not trying to 'get' at you. I just get annoyed when I see comments that suggest private operators trying to 'cream' everything are the entire cause of everything that's wrong.

There are an awful lot of things that could be wrong with private operation, too. That is where an independent regulator would step in. At least there is basically a clean sheet with private bus operation in the city, as up to now there hasn't been much impact, with the niche business of Aircoach probably being the most successful. That should be a good thing. It means there wouldn't be too much 'baggage' to deal with, when instituting any kind of tendering or subsidy arrangement for private operators to run bus services across the city.

Dealing with a stagnated, old, bloated, dyed-in-the-wool, unionised, management heavy bus company with 1950s operating procedures and self-perceived squatter's rights on the city, now that's a whole other kettle of fish. There are some very good, visionary people in Dublin Bus, who would like to do things a lot better. Unfortunately, the company in it's present form is bound to break them. Political interference plays a large part too, as well as the intransigence of the city authorities to co-operate properly with them.

There are no private operators on the 18, to take an example, and there is unlikely to ever be under the current arrangements. That is where tendering and subsidy would come in, under an independent regulator. A private operator would be expected to perform to a standard for their subsidy, and failing to do so, would lose the contract. As things stand, Dublin Bus bows to no regulator, and has little to fear from competition on anything other than a couple of lucrative main corridors into the city. That bodes ill for any route that is anyway uneconomical to run, as there is no incentive on Dublin Bus to improve the 1950s standard of service. Route 18 is basically the same route that took over from the trams in 1940, albeit a little bit added on here, and a little bit added on there, loads more traffic congestion, slower running times, and the loss of a conductor to keep things moving. So what if there's a two hour gap an odd evening, who cares? Let them eat cake.

Alas, I despair to think what kind of regulatory regime a Fianna Fáil government would put in place...

KC61

Hyde Road, your basic point in favour of an independent regulator is one that I fully support. Dublin needs such a body to dictate levels of service, vehicle standards, and to co-ordinate the design of the bus route network. The days of individual operators designing the network needs to stop, and some integrated thinking needs to start.

For all of the bad things Dublin Bus have done, there have been significant improvements in recent years. There have been several high frequency direct routes introduced along QBCs (4/4A, 128, 140, 145, 151, and one imminent in Blanchardstown), huge improvements in the Templeogue QBC (15/A/B, 74/A), a vastly superior route 75 schedule (despite your comment above) and a slow but steady move to clockface scheduling. It has taken a long time to get to this, but there is finally some movement happening. As someone who uses a lot of buses every week, I do think that the practices that were alluded to above, such as evening duties not being covered, has been eradicated. Don't get me wrong there are huge improvements still needed, but to suggest that nothing is happening is somewhat disingenuous. You are quite correct to suggest that political interference has played its part in how DB is run - the fact that the 48A, 51A and 172 are still running is testament to that.

DB did play a dirty tricks campaign against Mortons in 1988 and the early 1990s when their service commenced, and it was completely unjustified. However, to suggest that the lack of success in the enhanced Circle Line service introduced last year was down to Dublin Bus is not true. Since 2002 the Department has regulated the city bus network with a very tight rein. Three additional unlicensed buses were added by DB in the morning and evening peak by Dublin Bus, but these were promptly withdrawn when the Department instructed them to do so. DB were not adding lots of buses to the Lucan QBC in 2007, despite private claims that they were.

Private operators are finding that operating a service is not as easy as it may seem. Circle Line withdrew their off-peak evening services, Swords Express have increased their fares by 33 1/3%, Locolink vanished after several months operating a totally unviable service in south Dublin (while still leaving all the bus stops in place to this day). None of this is down to Dublin Bus, as all of their services in these areas have remained unchanged during the periods of operation by the private operators.

As for both the Lucan and Swords QBCs, it is nothing short of a disgrace that these large areas of Dublin cannot be given any improvement in service lest it potentially have an impact on a private operator. It is a nonsense. The 141 was to operate via the Swords Road and Drumcondra to the south city, but yet the Department will not sanction it lest it affects Swords Express. Several proposed 41X routings that avoided the Swords Express service later, and the Department will not sanction it. The Lucan Road was to see enhanced services on all the routes. Yet there are people in Maynooth, Celbridge, Lucan, Palmerstown, Chapelizod, Islandbridge, and in Swords, Cloghran, Santry, Whitehall and Drumcondra, for whom Departmental approval was obtained to purchase additional buses, and who are now deprived of these services, and left standing at stops (such as Propellerhead) because the other part of the same Department says no!

There is a lot of work to do here, but some common sense is needed above all else. At the end of the day the most important person here is the customer at the stop. The sooner that the Department, the private operators, and Dublin Bus all realise this the better.

HydeRoad

Very fair argument. I have to temper my own comments about Dublin Bus, as it is nearly eight years since I worked for them, and of course things have vastly improved in some areas. They are still crippled by the unions, something I fail to understand. If the unions were really interested in protecting their member's jobs, they would co-operate in making Dublin Bus the most progressive bus company this side of the continent, something it has every opportunity to be. If Dublin Bus were as efficient as it could be, no private operator could touch them on service provision, and there would be no need for private competition at all.

I couldn't begin to stand over some of the decisions an unregulated private sector make in regard to bus service provision. I can say that Mortons did a survey in early 2007, where, like Dublin Bus did on a constant basis, people were sent out to physically count the buses. And based on their advertised services, I can't remember the exact figures, but there were something like 10 to 15% more buses than scheduled. Many of these buses were running half empty or entirely empty. That is based on actual observation in the morning peak, at various points along the corridor. And parking of empty buses at Mortons bus stops continued regularly, as well as verbal abuse from Dublin Bus staff, drivers and inspectors.

There is very bad blood on both sides. It makes it very difficult for genuinely visionary people to make any progress, bound as they are to outdated working practices, rivalries, and both real and perceived grievances.

Dublin Bus made an offer some years ago, that private buses would be allowed, as long as they painted their buses in Dublin Bus livery, and answered the instructions of Dublin Bus inspectors. Can you just imagine the kind of bullying and abuse that would be meted out by pompous and inflated inspectors to 'hackers' as they are condescendingly known? It happens to private bus drivers on sub contract to Bus Éireann. They are bad enough as it is, SOME of them, without being given any real regulatory authority.

I have to temper that by saying there are some absolute gentlemen inspectors, and staff of all grades, who are nothing but polite and respectful at all times, and it must sicken them to see the repulsive and childish behaviour of some of their colleagues.

How can it take so long for the government to consider regulation of the industry? Alas, as I say, if the taxi regulator, Kathleen Doyle, is any example, we will replace one unsustainable situation with God knows what kind of an unmitigated mess...