For the politically correct (challenged) when do we say 'stop'

DonJose

Karsini wrote: »

Another thing I'd like to add is that a friend of mine is a fully qualified electrician, yet is drawing the dole because a lot of contractors are favouring Polish workers due to their desire to work for less pay. This is totally wrong in my opinion - I feel you should look after your own before attending to those outside.

Thats what happens when you open your labour market to several countries with high unemployment and a combined population of roughly 15 times our own population. The larger economies in Europe (Germany, France, Italy, Spain) decided to keep their labour markets closed to the EU 10 to protect their own work force. Plain and simple, Ireland was not prepared for the number on immigrants who arrived on our shores. Our infrastructure could barely cope with the native population, never mind the 500,000 immigrants who arrived over the past several years.

Executive Steve

darkman2 wrote: »

When it is too late

too late for what exactly?

Executive Steve

Karsini wrote: »

Another thing I'd like to add is that a friend of mine is a fully qualified electrician, yet is drawing the dole because a lot of contractors are favouring Polish workers due to their desire to work for less pay. This is totally wrong in my opinion - I feel you should look after your own before attending to those outside.

Your friend is a clearly a lazy sponging scumbag who is more interested in living off the taxes we are paying for than he is in getting ahead in life; if he had the strength of character to flollow the example of our new Eastern European friends he would be much happier because he wouldn't be sitting around all day scratching his backside eating beans from a tin and watching "Trisha".

ArmaniJeanss

Karsini wrote: »

Another thing I'd like to add is that a friend of mine is a fully qualified electrician, yet is drawing the dole because a lot of contractors are favouring Polish workers due to their desire to work for less pay.

Tough on your lazy friend, this is one of the massive benefits of immigration.

ojewriej

Karsini wrote: »

I lived in Drumcondra for 14 months, from March of last year until earlier this month. The "culture shock" was scary. I lived with 6 people, 5 of which were foreign nationals. I saw Polish adverts on bus shelters, and on the buses themselves the chatter seemed to be mostly in some language I couldn't comprehend. All of this made me feel like my home city isn't home anymore and is one of the reasons I moved back here. I love Dublin, I absolutely adore the place, but it just doesn't feel the same anymore and that's quite upsetting for someone who feels so "patriotic" about where I come from.

I don't really see how it's patriotic - to me it seems that you just think there is too many foreigners around. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, you have every right to feel this way, but don't try to put it in pretty words to make yourself look better.

Karsini wrote: »

Simple answer, we should have said 'stop' years ago. If we can't say 'stop' due to EU control then we should leave the union.

I'm assuming the right time in your opinion was after you got all the invesments, but just before the foreigners came?

Karsini wrote: »

I also think we should put our foot down and say "if you want to live in our country then do so by our way of life." I don't see why we should be changing for those coming in, that politician recently who suggested we change to driving on the right springs to mind, as do the parents who complained about nativity plays last Christmas.

Driving on the right idea had more to do with safety, more than anything else. Sure, it's easy to say, this is our place, make them do as we do, but sometimes you have to react to the reality rather than being stubborn just to make a point. There is so many people coming here - not only immigrants but also tourists - that the fact that we drive here on the left is a major road safety issue.

Granted, it wasn't a great idea, but at least someone is thinking outside the box.

As for creches - this was done by a private company, it's not that the government made them do it.

Karsini wrote: »

Another thing I'd like to add is that a friend of mine is a fully qualified electrician, yet is drawing the dole because a lot of contractors are favouring Polish workers due to their desire to work for less pay. This is totally wrong in my opinion - I feel you should look after your own before attending to those outside.

I have a friend who is a fully qualified carpenter - and he has trouble finding jobs. But I'm not sure whether it's due to "polish workers' desire to work for less pay", or to the fact that he refuses to work for less than 800 p.w., after taxes.
Imo, tradesmen were overpaid for a long time, and they shouldn't be surprised that they wages are decreasing. I appreciate that immigrants working for less are influencing wages, but you can't put a blame entirely on them. It wasn't long ago, when bulders were protesting not because they couldn't get jobs, but because they couldn't get jobs close to where they're lived. It was to do with two big building sites, Ballybrack and Donnybrook if I remember correctly.

As for asylum seekers - I don't really see how it is an issue, it's not that many of them. The real issue os people confusing asylum seekers with regular immigrants. And people spreading rumours about all the free cars them bloody asylum seekers are getting.

The immigrant situation should be sorted out - no doubt about it. But the truth is that the worse is over, working in Ireland is not as attractive prospect as it was 2 or 3 years ago. Now the problem will be not the numbers of immigrants who come here to earn a quick buck, but the cultural differences of the ones that are planning to stay.

No way is my friend "lazy", he's applied for more jobs than I can count. Most companies don't even have the decency to reply. And no, he's not eating beans from a tin, he's got two things in mind, either start on his own or emigrate, the latter stinks of the 80s to me, we've gone backwards in that sense. How ironic that to get away from the negative effects of immigration that one has to become an immigrant themselves.

I'll leave it at that before I say something I'll regret later.

Dudess

I smell troll off a couple of the retorts to Karsini's post...

HammerHeadGym

Just a quick word about dem damn foriegner tekin our jobs. They are not taking your jobs. When was the last time you were held down and had your job forcibly removed from you? That's right, never. It's a myth. Your employers are giving your jobs away to cheaper labour.

That is why I think that foreigners should be paid the same wages as the locals therfore ensuring the job went to the most qualified person. Take it up with your politicians, bitches!!

HammerHeadGym

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

Just a quick word about dem damn foriegner tekin our jobs. They are not taking your jobs. When was the last time you were held down and had your job forcibly removed from you? That's right, never. It's a myth. Your employers are giving your jobs away to cheaper labour.

That is why I think that foreigners should be paid the same wages as the locals therfore ensuring the job went to the most qualified person. Take it up with your politicians, bitches!!

I completely agree with you. There was a programme on UTV last week about this, a sports shop set up a warehouse in an area of England with high unemployment (you can get grants from the government by doing so) but transferred the foreign workers from their old facility and took on more, so therefore brought no benefit to the local community. This most likely wouldn't have happened if wages were the same across the board.

marcsignal

darkman2 wrote: »

The undertones of most of the posts through this thread tells me that people are genuinely more alert now to issues surrounding immigration and how it is handled - I think the current economic difficulties are the reason. Good points about during boom time how its very beneficial to us to have these immigrants but when times go bad......we as a country I think have yet to see what the result will be here. I hope the good social cohesion we have atm with the immigrant population is maintained but I have my doubts looking at other EU states.

I agree with you there, in fact I have noticed a pretty significant swing away from the PC camp on discussion forums, in the last 7 years. Go back to the Boards archive to any time pre 2000 (if that's possible?) and you will be very hard pressed to find any threads with a cautionary theme regarding immigration.

I personally think the issue was very badly managed because of PC lobby groups who were waiting like Attack Dogs in the wings, to pounce on anyone who raised concerns about the amount of people coming to Ireland, and so most people just said nothing, for fear of being branded 'Racist' or whatever.

ojewriej

Karsini wrote: »

There was a programme on UTV last week about this, a sports shop set up a warehouse in an area of England with high unemployment (you can get grants from the government by doing so) but transferred the foreign workers from their old facility and took on more, so therefore brought no benefit to the local community. This most likely wouldn't have happened if wages were the same across the board.

About 2 months ago, i saw a program on BBC, about immigrants in UK. The presenter went to this farm, and there was just foreigners working there. He asked the owner how come - the answer was, that English people just won't do it.

The job was hard, but he paid his workers £30.000 p.a., + benefits, including private health insurance.

The presenter went to the job centre, and started talking to the chavs hanging around. They kept talking about the foreigners stealing their jobs, and about how hard they are looking for work, but they can't find any. The presenter then told them about the jobs on the farm, and that he arranged with the owner that they could start the next day. The answer was "no way, that's a job for foreigners"

@marcsignal - I noticed the same thing, only in a much shorter time frame. I'm here a bit over a year, and remember that discussions like this one, or the Roma thread, would be usually: few people saying that maybe something should be done, one or two xenophobes (or ignorant people rather), and the rest of the people on their high horses telling them how racist they are. Now it looks like the balance is shifting to the other side.

Caoimhín

ojewriej wrote: »

.
The job was hard, but he paid his workers £30.000 p.a., + benefits, including private health insurance.

The presenter went to the job centre, and started talking to the chavs hanging around. They kept talking about the foreigners stealing their jobs, and about how hard they are looking for jobs, but they can't find any. The presenter then told them about the jobs on the farm, and that he arranged with the owner that they could start the next day. The answer was "no way, that's a job for foreigners"

I have jobs for people all the time, hard outside work but well paid. I have had Irish lads hang up the phone when I describe the work and pay, one even said "that's a Polish job". Irish lads who do start get pissed off after a day or two and just leave, some make it until payday and then go on the piss and don't return. Since the construction started to slow down we have more Irish lads looking for work and some stay the course but most have just had it too easy on building sites for too long.
Anyone who says that they cant get a job because "the foreigners" have taken all the work is talking boll*x and is probably just lazy and unemployable.
I've said too much...

reregholdsworth

when the man is red?

SimpleSam06

karen3212 wrote: »

I would understand that said asylum seeker has escaped a desperate situation in his home country, and I would treat them as I would wish to be treated if I had to do the same some day.

togster wrote: »

Some people are worse off than others. Most asylum seekers come from war ravaged areas.

Remember that law we used to have, whereby any child born in Ireland automatically became an Irish citizen? Remember how that was struck off the books not so long ago? Thats because the law was big news in certain parts of Africa, the talk of the town. We had women plus "partner" landing after nine months of being pregnant (never mind the health risks of flying to themselves and their child), by their thousands and tens of thousands.

This was a clear abuse of the welcoming attitude of Ireland, which even in the doldrums of the 80s was one of the most charitable countries in the world, and its a shame that we had to change that law.

Oh yes, if you can afford a plane ticket to Ireland you're probably not a destitute refugee, striving for the nearest safe harbour.

trevorku

While I think this thread is slightly inappropriate, yes it is true that foreigners are using Ireland as a way of getting money to bring it home to buy cars or houses as they are considerably cheaper in their own country. This is a fact, everything knows they are just here on a temp basis and very few of them will settle here permanently. Although there will always be a new generation coming to work here when the others have gone home although when the Euro is introduced in the E. Europe countries, maybe prices will increase or salary too and some may stop coming, only time will tell.

Chips Lovell

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

We had women plus "partner" landing after nine months of being pregnant (never mind the health risks of flying to themselves and their child), by their thousands and tens of thousands.

Source for these numbers?

SimpleSam06

el tonto wrote: »

Source for these numbers?

Thats a national secret in Ireland sure, we can't be inciting people. If you can find numbers to contradict me, work away.

In any case you don't hold a national referendum to change the constitution over a few isolated cases. A referendum in which people voted overwhelmingly to knock out the "citizenship tourism" that was ongoing.

ojewriej

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

In any case you don't hold a national referendum to change the constitution over a few isolated cases. A referendum in which people voted overwhelmingly to knock out the "citizenship tourism" that was ongoing.

Good point.

I remember that as well. But i think most of these women were actually living in UK, and were going back there as soon as they got IE passport. It gave them the same rights as the UK passport would, and it was much easier to get.

SimpleSam06

ojewriej wrote: »

I remember that as well. But i think most of these women were actually living in UK, and were going back there as soon as they got IE passport.

Where are you getting this from?

ojewriej

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Where are you getting this from?

Just remember reading about it, i had a personal interest in it.

Plus, you don't really see tens of thousands of black 5 year old babies around. There is good few all right, but not that many.

SimpleSam06

ojewriej wrote: »

Just remember reading about it, i had a personal interest in it.

Plus, you don't really see tens of thousands of black 5 year old babies around. There is good few all right, but not that many.

Aha, I found an article that gives more concrete numbers. You are right about the UK connection, but they only got visas to the UK and there is no mention of them returning there.

Some had escaped harrowing wars or genital mutilation. But officials grew skeptical of their claims as their numbers surged to about 12,000 in 2002 from a trickle a decade before.

Ireland not only offered citizenship to children born upon arrival; until 2003 it also allowed their illegal-immigrant parents to stay, a shortcut many asylum seekers used to win residency. Word got out: With a visa to Britain, a pregnant woman could reach Northern Ireland, take a cab across the border, and gain residency by giving birth.

Gilmartin argues that reports of abuse were exaggerated. But a 2004 referendum changed the rules, reserving citizenship for the children of longtime legal residents. It passed with nearly 80 percent of the vote.

By then, Ireland had about 18,000 mixed families of Irish children and illegal-immigrant parents. Wary of the costs of large-scale deportation, the government ran a one-time legalization program that gave residency to about 95 percent of those parents.

JangoFett

Ireland shouldn't have to deal with the problems of the world by letting everyone stay here

We're a small Island
We only have so many jobs to go around
There are only so many resources

Just because we're all lovely and nice does not mean we should have to fix everyone's problems!

"Word got out: With a visa to Britain, a pregnant woman could reach Northern Ireland, take a cab across the border, and gain residency by giving birth."

See...these people saw us as an easy target!!!

Chips Lovell

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Thats a national secret in Ireland sure, we can't be inciting people. If you can find numbers to contradict me, work away.

If it's a secret, then how do you know? Anyway, I find it curious that then minister for justice Michael McDowell was unable to provide a number when pressed in the Dail debate on the amendment to the constitution.

In the year before the referedum, 548 non-nationals presented late at Dublin maternity hospitals, the same hospitals McDowell said were reporting this epidemic of 'birth tourism'. There was no way of knowing how many of these had just arrived into the country.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Aha, I found an article that gives more concrete numbers. You are right about the UK connection, but they only got visas to the UK and there is no mention of them returning there.

Now you're moving the goalposts. You originally talked about people flying in to give birth. 18,000 is the number of children born to all illegal immigrants, whether they had come to the country to give birth or not.

SimpleSam06

el tonto wrote: »

Now you're moving the goalposts. You originally talked about people flying in to give birth. 18,000 is the number of children born to all illegal immigrants, whether they had come to the country to give birth or not.

No, 18,000 is the number of families. The actual number of people involved is at least three times that. If the government gave blanket citizenship to 95% of them, odds are high that most or all of these acquired citizenship through childbirth. The only point you're arguing is that they might not have come here intending to give birth, which leads us to the situation that there were here illegally for at least seven months, getting by without assistance. You have to admit thats a bit thin.

No goalposts are being moved, the facts are being brought to light.

Chips Lovell

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

The only point you're arguing is that they might not have come here intending to give birth, which leads us to the situation that there were here illegally for at least seven months, getting by without assistance.

Nope, you (and the government) argued that the referendum was about the number of people coming here in late pregnancy to give birth. Read what you said:

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Remember that law we used to have, whereby any child born in Ireland automatically became an Irish citizen? Remember how that was struck off the books not so long ago? Thats because the law was big news in certain parts of Africa, the talk of the town. We had women plus "partner" landing after nine months of being pregnant (never mind the health risks of flying to themselves and their child), by their thousands and tens of thousands.

SimpleSam06

el tonto wrote: »

Nope, you (and the government) argued that the referendum was about the number of people coming here in late pregnancy to give birth. Read what you said:

Yes, thats what the referendum was about. I never said otherwise. To reiterate my earlier point, we have 18,000 families with children who only got residency by dint of being popped out on Irish soil, which means at least 36,000 people came here for that purpose, tens of thousands.

Lets be clear on this. The government didn't hand out residencies to anyone that happened to be in the country at the time; only those with semi legitimate claims were given this privelege - those with a child born on Irish soil.

invincibleirish

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Yes, thats what the referendum was about. I never said otherwise. To reiterate my earlier point, we have 18,000 families with children who only got residency by dint of being popped out on Irish soil, which means at least 36,000 people came here for that purpose, tens of thousands.

Lets be clear on this. The government didn't hand out residencies to anyone that happened to be in the country at the time; only those with semi legitimate claims were given this privelege - those with a child born on Irish soil.

IIRC The figure of 18k you are using was produced in a Examiner article before the actual Citizenship referendum(a Referendum i canvassed for a no on in an overwhelmingly rural constituency-the fun i had) which was controversial at the time as it was a massively inflated figure(and turned out to be false).

As a consequence i believe the Agbonlahor case in Kerry was as a result of the Citizehship referendum.

But i digress, people are assuming too much about the Government and foreigners. There is no preferential treatment given as cited already. There is however a handy set of half truths out in the public domain for xenophobes on this thread to talk crap, and unfortunately everyone thinks they are an expert on the subject ^^^^^.

SimpleSam06

invincibleirish wrote: »

IIRC The figure of 18k you are using was produced in a Examiner article before the actual Citizenship referendum(a Referendum i canvassed for a no on in an overwhelmingly rural constituency-the fun i had) which was controversial at the time as it was a massively inflated figure(and turned out to be false).

The article I quoted was not the Examiner, it was in fact the global edition of the New York Times, dated the 25th of Feb 2008. Have you got any evidence to back up what you are saying, and/or the actual numbers? I'm not saying you are wrong, just back it up.

invincibleirish wrote: »

There is no preferential treatment given as cited already.

Every taxi driver I talk to seems to feel differently, with grants being handed out to purchase plates for cars and PSV exam requirements being waived (in particular the one about knowing the area) to name just one area. Is there any truth to this?

meditraitor

No more immigration

for easy solution see above.

for hard solution see below

any immigrant who doesnt contribute to Irish society should be shipped back to their homeland to make room for the ones willing to contribute..
Social welfare/handouts denied to all but Irish citizens(with exceptions of course/ been working here a few years and lost the job etc) will put a stop to the negativity that is increasing in Ireland towards immigration.Joe bloggs will not have anything to moan about

tallaght01

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Every taxi driver I talk to seems to feel differently,

LOL did someone just post this as an actual point?

sorry