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Little boy racers
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I know what you mean about overtaking in dangerous places, you don't have to have another registration for this to happen - one day recently I was at the stretch of road between 'the crossing' and Mill Park Hotel, it was about 10.30 just starting to get dark! I was going into town with my whole family on board, I slowed down and was just about to put my indicator on when I saw this jeep behind me coming up at speed and went to overtake me with a car coming the other way! The reason why I was slowing and going to indicate was because two people where walking on the side of the road, I got such a fright and guess who would have been the worst off if an accident had occurred - the two pedestrians!donegalgirl28 wrote: »I'm from Donegal and I have a Dublin reg car. When I go up home, I go through the Clady way which brings me out into Castlefinn then onto Ballybofey then to Cloghan then Dungloe. Always when I pass the boarder, cars behind me assume I'm from Dublin then try to overtake me on the roads...(especially after Cloghan, if anyone knows the route from Cloghan to Fintown, it's pretty ****ing dangerous like) I'm going the speed limit which is 80kmh/100kmph, sometimes go over it, and yet people behind me STILL want to overtake me. I end up either being forced to go faster or else stopping. That's partly the reason why I have a Donegal GAA teddy and a mini jersey on my window... to stop Donegal people thinking I'm some sort of tourist and drives like a granny when I clearly don't!
But I do have to admit.. when I'm driving on a road that I know pretty well and know where the next bends are coming up over a hill, I get pretty cheesed off when there's a car in front of me with a different reg and is braking all the time cos they don't know the roads.. not their fault I know!
People are in such a hurry and have no patience for other road users, I wouldn't try to hold back other drivers - let them go if it is safe to do so but some of them are really ignorant, I don't even know if the jeep driver realised that two people were walking on the side of the road!
I agree it can be annoying when someone in front of you doesn't know the road but at the same time YOU do know why they are taking their time so should make some allowances for them and overtake when it is safe to do so! The problem about knowing the road well is that sometime you take chances that you shouldn't take, bend are so dangerous and you also have to be aware of other drivers making mistakes that could cost YOU your life!
The best advise is SLOW DOWN, WATCH YOUR MIRRORS and generally just be very careful - it is sad all the people in Donegal who have lost their lives in the last week or two which really shouldn't have happened if everyone was taking proper care and paying attention to their driving!0 -
Where's "the crossing"? I'm assuming it's Ballydevitt crossroads?0
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No its not ballydevitt crossroads - it is that wide part of the road that is opposite to where the ambulances are parked, just a little bit further up the road from the Mill Park Hotel! It is called the crossing because as far as I am aware the railway used to cross there, although I could be wrong about that, I have always known it as 'the crossing' from when I was young! After there the road gets very narrow until the Mill Park Hotel and that is where it happened, I don't know who it was because all I was interested in was stopping the car and avoiding an accident!Where's "the crossing"? I'm assuming it's Ballydevitt crossroads?0 -
Jaysus, that stretch of road isn't suitable for overtaking at ANY time, IMO!blue shimmering wrote: »No its not ballydevitt crossroads - it is that wide part of the road that is opposite to where the ambulances are parked, just a little bit further up the road from the Mill Park Hotel! It is called the crossing because as far as I am aware the railway used to cross there, although I could be wrong about that, I have always known it as 'the crossing' from when I was young! After there the road gets very narrow until the Mill Park Hotel and that is where it happened, I don't know who it was because all I was interested in was stopping the car and avoiding an accident!
Luckily, nothing happened that time.0 -
Your absolutely right, some people just don't have the patience to wait! It was at the twilight time of the evening and the two walking on the road two abreast which made it even worse! Not saying that they don't have the right to walk that way on the road but from a safety point of view if it was me I would be in single file when meeting traffic. There have been more fatalities on our roads again this weekend and the rally has been cancelled because of a road death some time yesterday! I actually noticed a number of cars going at excessive speeds on the back roads yesterday evening and suppose it is all down to the rally - by the way what about all the fuel that is used while partaking in this with there being a scarcity and so on of diesel and petrol?Jaysus, that stretch of road isn't suitable for overtaking at ANY time, IMO!
Luckily, nothing happened that time.0 -
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blue shimmering wrote: »by the way what about all the fuel that is used while partaking in this with there being a scarcity and so on of diesel and petrol?
there's no scarcity of petrol or diesel (no more than before), prices have been rising for other reasons, not because of the lack of it.0 -
I drove over the bridge from Clady tonight and at the junction with the N15, there was a car upside down at the bottom of a tree. :eek:0
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was delighted yesterday, on my way back to galway, just coming to barnesmore gap, before the little bridge where a bad accident happened about a year ago i think, im sure most of you know where i mean, theres a lake on the left. anyway boy racer in his norther reg white suzuki swift ( who had already passed me) decided to overtake his next 2 obstacles. I could see in the distance cars coming but obviously he hadn't. he had also overlooked the two people with high vis gear standing on the hard shoulder up ahead & their high vis motorbike (it was obvious it was the gardai). the bean garda was at the edge of the road waiting for him&pointed him to the hard shoulder. It made my day and I hope he got well and truely scr*wed0
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Your probably right there but I still cannot see what the attraction is of watching cars racing around backroads and so on, it is so dangerous for both the drivers and even more so for the spectators who at times do very silly things like watch too close at a very bad bend! At the same time I do realise there is a very big following of these races and also ones that are not legitimate which obviously are even more dangerous!there's no scarcity of petrol or diesel (no more than before), prices have been rising for other reasons, not because of the lack of it.
Before, during and after these events there are show off's who think they can do these stunts on public roads taking their own and other peoples lives! I have seen it for myself this last few weeks or so on really narrow back roads from about 10pm onwards, there was one Sunday not so long ago that I met one of the unofficial races on returning from visiting family and was told by some of the spectators to get my car in off the road right away because a racer was coming, I just about got in and next thing boom he/she was gone. I heard later that it was a practice run for the real race and the times where taken and only the one's who completed it within a certain time got through to the 'real race'! Other people did seem to know about it and I am not really sure if it was an official race or not but do know that there was no warning as I came along the road. I would have thought that if it was official that there would have been Gardai present and notices put up in advance to let the public know in advance what was happening!0 -
I'm delighted too, thank god they are out there trying to slow these showoff's down, it is always a dangerous time to be on the roads before, after and during these rally's, having said that I do know there are plenty of people who enjoy the rally and drive sanely afterwards. They just go for the day out with their families and usually pick a very safe place to watch from!was delighted yesterday, on my way back to galway, just coming to barnesmore gap, before the little bridge where a bad accident happened about a year ago i think, im sure most of you know where i mean, theres a lake on the left. anyway boy racer in his norther reg white suzuki swift ( who had already passed me) decided to overtake his next 2 obstacles. I could see in the distance cars coming but obviously he hadn't. he had also overlooked the two people with high vis gear standing on the hard shoulder up ahead & their high vis motorbike (it was obvious it was the gardai). the bean garda was at the edge of the road waiting for him&pointed him to the hard shoulder. It made my day and I hope he got well and truely scr*wed0 -
Don't know what it was like in Donegal, but "Operation Safeguard" didn't affect me. I was on the road day and night over the weekend in counties Sligo, Leitrim and Roscommon and didn't see any speed checks or a single checkpoint. Only person I know who did see the "crackdown" was my fiance who basically doesn't drink and was stopped at 11.15p.m. at Carraroe Roundabout on the way home from Tesco with her mother. The guards are frequently there at the same time and place. 11.15 doesn't seem like peak time for drink drivers to me. And the fact that they always use the same spots makes them easy to avoid. So no increase in activity to my eyes and a horrible death tolls on our roads again over the weekend. Is the odd random "crackdown" acceptable? Are the Gardai targeting the right people? Were the roads safer over the weekend? No, no and no.0
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Didn't see any checkpoints in Donegal Town either, although there were a lot on Sunday around the bridge going out towards Mountcharles - there seemed to be an Orange parade with band that went into the Church there at the riverside!Don't know what it was like in Donegal, but "Operation Safeguard" didn't affect me. I was on the road day and night over the weekend in counties Sligo, Leitrim and Roscommon and didn't see any speed checks or a single checkpoint. Only person I know who did see the "crackdown" was my fiance who basically doesn't drink and was stopped at 11.15p.m. at Carraroe Roundabout on the way home from Tesco with her mother. The guards are frequently there at the same time and place. 11.15 doesn't seem like peak time for drink drivers to me. And the fact that they always use the same spots makes them easy to avoid. So no increase in activity to my eyes and a horrible death tolls on our roads again over the weekend. Is the odd random "crackdown" acceptable? Are the Gardai targeting the right people? Were the roads safer over the weekend? No, no and no.
All the accidents that have happened in Donegal the last while have been during the day @4.30pm Ballybofey, 8.30pm down by the Rosses, 8.45pm Letterkenny to Glenties road, 8.30am Sligo to Bundoran road and so on...but really there is no point in having check points in the same place at the same time because people get to know WHERE they are and the TIME they are there and take alternative routes! I think between 8pm and 11pm is a very dangerous time to be driving because it is twilight and much harder to see - especially pedestrians!
Its so sad all these people lost their lives and others are fighting for their's still, they will more than likely bare the scars for the rest of their lives! I don't know if it was boy racers either for the accident up in Letterkenny where the mother and 3 month old baby girl lost their lives - trailers with loads on can be extremely hard to control especially if the driver has to try to stop suddenly!0 -
blue shimmering wrote: »I don't know if it was boy racers either for the accident up in Letterkenny where the mother and 3 month old baby girl lost their lives - trailers with loads on can be extremely hard to control especially if the driver has to try to stop suddenly!
Dont know the full story but i thinks its been reported that the driver of the car in which the mother and daughter died was passing out other cars when the accident happened. If this is the case there was probably very little the other driver could do, trailer or not.
My sympathies goes out to the mother and daughters family, but i feel for the driver of the jeep and trailer as much, i dont think i could ever get over something like that happening, even just as an innocent bystander.blue shimmering wrote: »Your probably right there but I still cannot see what the attraction is of watching cars racing around backroads and so on, it is so dangerous for both the drivers and even more so for the spectators who at times do very silly things like watch too close at a very bad bend! At the same time I do realise there is a very big following of these races and also ones that are not legitimate which obviously are even more dangerous!
Before, during and after these events there are show off's who think they can do these stunts on public roads taking their own and other peoples lives! I have seen it for myself this last few weeks or so on really narrow back roads from about 10pm onwards, there was one Sunday not so long ago that I met one of the unofficial races on returning from visiting family and was told by some of the spectators to get my car in off the road right away because a racer was coming, I just about got in and next thing boom he/she was gone. I heard later that it was a practice run for the real race and the times where taken and only the one's who completed it within a certain time got through to the 'real race'! Other people did seem to know about it and I am not really sure if it was an official race or not but do know that there was no warning as I came along the road. I would have thought that if it was official that there would have been Gardai present and notices put up in advance to let the public know in advance what was happening!
I agree completely, morons out on the roads just to show off and act like wan&ers.
As for the unofficial race, i'm sure it was about as unofficial as you'll get. They do not have practice runs at high speed or even qualifying. The seasoned drivers will drive each stage in any car and will actually go slower than a normal car as they make adjustments to their pace notes, examining road surfaces, verges and points of reference. This was just a bunch of idiots, although i'm sure they may have been taking part in the rally, this is not the actions of a professional (acting) driver.0 -
There really should be a limit on engine size that rises as you get closer to 25 years old. I doubt if such a measure would be any harder to impose or more unpopular or indeed crate any more difficulty than the new curbs on provisional licenses.
I also believe that the Gardai should clamp down heavily on people who hog main roads at 30/40mph on the white line keeping everyone back resulting in others taking chances they shouldn't. Anyone who's got that tunnel vision or are that nervous about driving should get a copy of the bus timetable not even the rules of the road.0 -
In fairness most people who drive slow do stay in on the left to let other traffic go, I do agree to a certain extent that people who are nervous shouldn't be on the roads because at the moment it is nerve racking enough trying to drive with out being nervous along with it! If I had a choice of having a slow driver in front of me hogging the centre line of the road or a maniac who is driving erratically and overtaking in dangerous places - I would prefer the slow driver any day!donegalman1 wrote: »There really should be a limit on engine size that rises as you get closer to 25 years old. I doubt if such a measure would be any harder to impose or more unpopular or indeed crate any more difficulty than the new curbs on provisional licenses.
I also believe that the Gardai should clamp down heavily on people who hog main roads at 30/40mph on the white line keeping everyone back resulting in others taking chances they shouldn't. Anyone who's got that tunnel vision or are that nervous about driving should get a copy of the bus timetable not even the rules of the road.
We have to slow down and make allowances for other drivers on the road - I was at the courthouse junction yesterday trying to turn right and this car coming from Mountcharles direction let me out in front of him! The car on the other side of the road beeped and the male (not so young) driver put his fist up to me....I knew he was there but at the same time he was right to warn me that he had the right of the road but not to put his fist up at me - as far as I am concerned you are then going into road rage territory! By the way at that stage I had given way to him, because obviously he did have the right of way but if it had been me in his situation I would have let a car out from a side road!0 -
donegalman1 wrote: »I also believe that the Gardai should clamp down heavily on people who hog main roads at 30/40mph on the white line keeping everyone back resulting in others taking chances they shouldn't. Anyone who's got that tunnel vision or are that nervous about driving should get a copy of the bus timetable not even the rules of the road.
i agree 100% with ya on the slow drivers in the middle of the road that refuse to let ya past and maybe the tunnel vision but the nervous drivers have to learn sometime.
if there was a minimal speed limit on the main road then we have less of a reason to get angry at slowdrivers then speed up to over take them and then have to continue at a fast speed to make up the time we lost even if you dont stay speeding intentionally!0 -
Hi.
I have read this thread with interest, and, for the most part, agreed with the sentiments expressed.
I was surprised, however, that little mention was made of the very variable road standards in Donegal. True, some seriously overdue upgrading has been done to the roads network in the last couple of years, nevertheless, the overall standard of the roads network in Donegal is well below acceptable standards.
In particular, I would like to draw attention to the area where the poor mother and 15 year-old died - R.I.P.
I should also state that I have no connection whatsoever to either the victims, or the car driver. Nor can I offer any insight as to exactly how the accident occurred.
I have, however, had occasion to pass by the spot where this accident occurred, recently. It is a road that literally meanders along the banks of a river - twists and turns galore. The spot where the victims died is directly between two blind corners, and the road is narrow by EU standards. Any driver driving at the 100K speed limit, meeting an oncoming car, would be forced to choose between hitting the pedestrians crossing the road, or swerving to the other side of the road, and hitting any oncom
ing vehicle.
I see neither to blame the deceased, nor defend the driver. I truthfully do not know what speed the car was being driven at, nor what, if any, evasive action was attempted by the driver. Neither do I understand how anyone not familiar with the scene of the accident could conclude that it was automatically a "boy racers'" fault. I merely wish to make the point that many accidents could be avoided if the roads were of a better standard.
Another point I seldom hear mentioned is the behaviour of tourists here. Again, I do not seek to judge this specific accident. Countless times, however, I have seen tourists, either drivers or pedestrians, put other road users at risk (parking on blind corners to take pictures, crossing the road on corners, cycling 2-3 abreast etc.) - because they assume there is little or no traffic here. Some of them can be a bigger hazard than any boy racer. Lastly, according to Garda statistics, the most common factor in causing accidents is - Drink driving!
Boy racers are a hazard on the roads - but let's not make them the sole scapegoats!
Donegallass0 -
I would rather we didn't dwell on one extremely sad specific event but perhaps debate the wider implications of the thread title.0
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donegallass wrote: »Hi.
I have read this thread with interest, and, for the most part, agreed with the sentiments expressed.
I was surprised, however, that little mention was made of the very variable road standards in Donegal. True, some seriously overdue upgrading has been done to the roads network in the last couple of years, nevertheless, the overall standard of the roads network in Donegal is well below acceptable standards.
In particular, I would like to draw attention to the area where the poor mother and 15 year-old died - R.I.P.
I should also state that I have no connection whatsoever to either the victims, or the car driver. Nor can I offer any insight as to exactly how the accident occurred.
I have, however, had occasion to pass by the spot where this accident occurred, recently. It is a road that literally meanders along the banks of a river - twists and turns galore. The spot where the victims died is directly between two blind corners, and the road is narrow by EU standards. Any driver driving at the 100K speed limit, meeting an oncoming car, would be forced to choose between hitting the pedestrians crossing the road, or swerving to the other side of the road, and hitting any oncom
ing vehicle.
I see neither to blame the deceased, nor defend the driver. I truthfully do not know what speed the car was being driven at, nor what, if any, evasive action was attempted by the driver. Neither do I understand how anyone not familiar with the scene of the accident could conclude that it was automatically a "boy racers'" fault. I merely wish to make the point that many accidents could be avoided if the roads were of a better standard.
Another point I seldom hear mentioned is the behaviour of tourists here. Again, I do not seek to judge this specific accident. Countless times, however, I have seen tourists, either drivers or pedestrians, put other road users at risk (parking on blind corners to take pictures, crossing the road on corners, cycling 2-3 abreast etc.) - because they assume there is little or no traffic here. Some of them can be a bigger hazard than any boy racer. Lastly, according to Garda statistics, the most common factor in causing accidents is - Drink driving!
Boy racers are a hazard on the roads - but let's not make them the sole scapegoats!
Donegallass
What Garda statistics are they? Drink driving is not the most common factor in accidents. Not a mile.0 -
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Thats what I thought. It would be interesting if someone could post a link to these stats.
The only statistics I can find are of road death/injuries nothing in link to wether drinking was a factor or not, ill shout a few garda I know and see if they know a place I can get a scan of them.
http://www.garda.ie/statistics98/nroadstats.html0 -
What Garda statistics are they? Drink driving is not the most common factor in accidents. Not a mile.
I'm referring to the ones published in the "Derry People and Donegal News" several months ago. I will admit that I was surprised by them, too.
I also would prefer not to dwell on any particular incident. The reason I focused on this one, was in response to an earlier post, assuming that the incident was caused by a boy racer. In this instance, it may, or may not have been. I don't know. However, I am familiar with that stretch of road, and it is a deathtrap, especially in the summer months. I nearly killed someone myself 200 yards further on, a couple of years ago.
I was driving at 45 M.P.H., when I drove around a blind corner, to find an American tourist stopped in the middle of the road. She was standing behind her car taking photographs ! There was another car coming in the opposite direction, and I had to perform an emergency stop. She just stood there staring blankly at me, almost as if she thought there shouldn't be anyone else driving on the road. That is not the only instance I have witnessed of tourists - mainly drivers, I might add, failing to realise that narrow roads allow a much lower error margin.
Anyway, the point I was making was, little boy racers, or slow drivers, dangerous as they are, are not the only contributors to accidents on Donegal roads. I.M.H.O, the roads themselves are compounding any bad driving habits that exist.
Donegallass0 -
donegallass wrote: »I'm referring to the ones published in the "Derry People and Donegal News" several months ago. I will admit that I was surprised by them, too.
I also would prefer not to dwell on any particular incident. The reason I focused on this one, was in response to an earlier post, assuming that the incident was caused by a boy racer. In this instance, it may, or may not have been. I don't know. However, I am familiar with that stretch of road, and it is a deathtrap, especially in the summer months. I nearly killed someone myself 200 yards further on, a couple of years ago.
I was driving at 45 M.P.H., when I drove around a blind corner, to find an American tourist stopped in the middle of the road. She was standing behind her car taking photographs ! There was another car coming in the opposite direction, and I had to perform an emergency stop. She just stood there staring blankly at me, almost as if she thought there shouldn't be anyone else driving on the road. That is not the only instance I have witnessed of tourists - mainly drivers, I might add, failing to realise that narrow roads allow a much lower error margin.
Anyway, the point I was making was, little boy racers, or slow drivers, dangerous as they are, are not the only contributors to accidents on Donegal roads. I.M.H.O, the roads themselves are compounding any bad driving habits that exist.
Donegallass
Got to yes and no to this yes the roads are awful but it is up to the drivers to take this into consideration with there driving habits0 -
Donegallass, your emphasis on the tourist taking a picture is a flawed arguement. As a road user, you have to expect the unexpected, if you are coming to a blind corner, you should duely adjust your speed to a level that will allow you time to react to anything, what if the tourist had broken down round that corner, are they still to blame? or if a sheep/cow happened to be strayed out on the road. As the tv ad says 'expect the unexpected'. The speed signs are there as limits, not targets, and its up to the driver to decide the speed which is safe for the conditions at the time, i.e. rain, fog, dark, bendy road, narrow road, etc etc0
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Donegallass, your emphasis on the tourist taking a picture is a flawed arguement. As a road user, you have to expect the unexpected, if you are coming to a blind corner, you should duely adjust your speed to a level that will allow you time to react to anything, what if the tourist had broken down round that corner, are they still to blame? or if a sheep/cow happened to be strayed out on the road. As the tv ad says 'expect the unexpected'. The speed signs are there as limits, not targets, and its up to the driver to decide the speed which is safe for the conditions at the time, i.e. rain, fog, dark, bendy road, narrow road, etc etc
I actually disagree with some of this, in germany I think (At least some European country as per AA website) you are by law obliged to carry a hazard warning sign and by default many cars here have one in the boot, in a breakdown situation it has to be used, that should be made law here. Its an offence to be drunk in a public place here (rarely prosecuted) though people who are drunk and an endangerment to themselves or others are prosecuted more often. Any anyone who recklessly parks on a bend, blindspot or not should be charged and prosecuted and if it does happen to be a tourist then they should be booked into Mountjoy or wherever and charged for the privilage.
If we were to literally take the round the corner scenario, then we'd have to drive around most of Donegal at 20mph and hope that when the lunatic who thinks it alright to park where they like will be ok if they are hit at low speed.
Consideration on the roads also means letting others past, parking safely and in a breakdown moving to a safe place or alerting other road users to the danger... you'll find Bus Eireann seem to be the only people you see putting the triange warning sign up.... a symbol of our bad buses, dependancy on buses or the fact that they know they should?
I think what many of us are saying in these threads is that speeding drivers (some within the limit and some not) are not the only inconsiderate and problem drivers on the road. There just is not any message or enforcement of all the others and if thats the law then it is an ass.
The Speed limit is not a target but in some respects it is a sort of entitlement, this whole target thing is a red herring to avoid Gardai and Gay Byrne actually telling older and nervous people they need to buck up too. Explain to me why someone can hold up twenty cars through the latter stages of barnesmore gap at say forty miles an hour, with them hugging the white lines. Its an absolute farce to protray them as a safe driver, they may be personally safe but causing an endangerment to everyone behind them as are those who do not overtake them or leave space for others to do so.
If someone comes along a reasonable country road in the middle of it at 20 mile an hour safe simply because they are doing 20 or should they be on the lefthandside and giving way, should they be entitled to park in the middle of the road likewise and it be mine or others responsibility to anticipate that hey, some idiot is entitled to park in the middle of the road, I should just expect that they will and be prepared.
In effect we have a single track road safety policy, aimed at young and fast drivers, everyone else is ok simply cos they are more inclined to vote. I'll bet if all young and provisional license holders voted not only would they decide the govenment but there'd suddenly be a new road safety strategy.
And as for the Cow/Sheep arguement, it really should be the farmers job to make sure his fences are in order, again they have great voting power but I'm sure the subsidies were enough for a bit of fencing, most do look after them very well, I'm more famiiar to them driving along looking around them in €40 grand jeeps or deciding that pulling into the hard shoulder in their UK reg Tractors is beneath them. Controverial but true.0 -
When you actually read back through all the posts in this thread, its plain to see its peoples attitudes that are the main problem.
Come on everyone we started off blaming Boy Racers (Who Are all from Donegal)
-Rally Spectators & The Gob****es that ruin the sport with their unofficial rally antics, and by the way there is no such thing as practice sessions to record fastest times to qualify for a rally,any rally participant will tell u that the few days leading up to the rally are crucial for taking notes while driving at low speed limits this is a Reccee.
Even then the cars are only allowed to reccee the stage twice by organisers, this is out of respect to the neighbouring houses and land owners who have graciously allowed the event to take place.
-Learner drivers/slow drivers- ok we were all there at some stage and to be honest it is irritating to be held up by these drivers, but i think that the problem lies with 1 or 2 drivers behind the slow obsticle these are the drivers who are causing the problem.
They have a clearer line of sight and should be overtaking when they have the chance, not the guy 5 or 6 cars down trying to do all the work he's the eejit that causes the accidents by taking the chance.
We are always goin to have problems on our roads, the majority of our road network is made up of B roads which have different levels of danger,is it too hard to ask drivers to use cop on when on them, lets face it we never know whats around the next bend so as someone mentioned earlier on expect the unexpected.
Its very easy to drive a car in a straight line at speed we can all do that , the problem happens when we are forced to stop or change direction,then have we the reactions to avoid an accident????0 -
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Is it just me or has the number of "donut" circles on the roads increased dramatically recently? Everywhere I go they are very visible.
I came across a young lad going them outside Porthal recently. The "road rage" descended on me and suffice to say he won't be doing them in that location again. :cool:0
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