Raising a child as atheist in a very non-secular society

preilly79

Hi

I'd like to know what your opinions, and more specifically your actual experiences are of raising a child as an atheist in a non-secular society. In this example, you can use the United States as an example of such a society.

I, an atheist, am married to someone who describes herself as a humanist. We both were baptised and raised in catholic families but have since formed our own opinions of religion.

Eventually, we will move to the United States with the intention of starting a family, and I would very much appreciate hearing the experiences of any person/couple who have raised a child as atheist there.

How did you cope with the obvious religious undertones and influence on the American belief system? Did you or your child experience much animosity based on your beliefs?

Thanks!

Zombrex

How does one raise a child "atheist"?

Would it not be better to raise your child to have an open mind and to decide for themselves as they get older?

Or do do you mean simply raising a child without religious dogma (which is slightly different)

Dades

I'd imagine the OP means the potential exclusion of the child from community religious activities.

I don't think that's an issue at all here in Ireland - several posters here have unbaptised children. The only common issues are family and getting into schools. Religion is more an enforced family tradition, rather than a 'community' thing.

I have no first-hand experience with child-rearing in the US, but a huge factor would be where in the US you were thinking of living. Raising a child outside of Christianity would be a lot easier in California than Kansas for example.

Any idea where you might want to live? I'm also sure there are atheist/humanist communities hidden away wherever you go - google is your friend!

preilly79

You're off topic but I'll address your points.

Wicknight wrote: »

How does one raise a child "atheist"?

The same way you raise a child catholic/jewish/muslim. You expose them to a belief system that you endorse and subscribe to.

Wicknight wrote: »

Would it not be better to raise your child to have an open mind and to decide for themselves as they get older?

Your argument makes the premise that a person needs to be raised a certain way for them to make a choice and have an open mind, and that atheism precludes them from this. That's somewhat arrogant.

Our child can make that choice at any stage in their life. And regarding having an open mind; what prevents an atheist from having an open mind? If evidence for something exists, it will be evaluated and a judgement will be made. Any rational person, irrespective of their upbringing should be capable of such analytical thought.

Wicknight wrote: »

Or do do you mean simply raising a child without religious dogma (which is slightly different)

You'll have to explain the difference between atheism (which may be described as a rejection of religious dogma), and raising a child without religious dogma. Or have I missed your meaning completely?

preilly79

Dades wrote: »

I'd imagine the OP means the potential exclusion of the child from community religious activities.

I don't think that's an issue at all here in Ireland - several posters here have unbaptised children. The only common issues are family and getting into schools. Religion is more an enforced family tradition, rather than a 'community' thing.

That's the problem, it's much more of a community thing over there.

Dades wrote: »

I have no first-hand experience with child-rearing in the US, but a huge factor would be where in the US you were thinking of living. Raising a child outside of Christianity would be a lot easier in California than Kansas for example.

Any idea where you might want to live? I'm also sure there are atheist/humanist communities hidden away wherever you go - google is your friend!

We haven't quite set our minds but it will be either the north east coast (NYC , Philly) or California.

You raised something which I hadn't thought of before ... communities. The whole idea of an atheist/humanist community is somewhat counter productive I think. I don't know, maybe it would probably be better for us not to hole ourselves up in a community? It just feels exclusive and reeks of segregation, not really what i'd like to achieve.

You've definitely got me thinking about a couple of other things!

nozzferrahhtoo

Daniel Dennett has a slightly counter intuative but very good idea on this kind of thing. Instead of removing a child from religious dogma or practises, allow the child to be part of the community teachings and practises around. However at the same time make it your business to teach the child about all the religions even the one surrounding you. From hindus, to catholics, to islam, to buddism. Teach them as histories, facts, figures, what each one beleives. Dont teach them as TRUE. Just the facts.

Dennett beleives such knowledge can act as a form of anti virulent against such dogmas and Dawkins is a good example of this. He says his loss of faith was connected solely to the realisation that theres 100s of religions and its merely an accident of geography which one you beleive. The more he learnt of science and OTHER religions the more he realised their use as stories, but not as holding any real truth.

There is a you tube debate between dennett and dinesh dsouza I really recommend you watch. Just watch the opening statement from dennett, you dont need to watch it all. He lays out this idea of child education about religion very well in it.

Having never had a child myself my own personal opinion is probabaly of no use to you but I will mention it anyway. I think when I have a child, whether it starts leaning towards religion or atheism, i dont care which, im going to constantly challange that child. Always asking "Oh you beleive that do you? Why? What have you heard to make you think that? Why do you think its true? Have you considered the other side?" My child will then make its own choices and will have a very strong reason for doing so as every beleif the child holds will have been questioned thoroughly and well thought out. BY the time anyone with any dogma comes to the child trying to convert them, they will have heard every argument before and considered their response to it. And if my child turns out intensely religious then so be it. I will have fun debating to the bitter end

Sangre

The US is far more secular than Ireland is. Its status has far better protection than anything in Irish law. However, it is certainly a very religious society (in some areas anyway).

I assume you know how you'll be getting a visa to live in the US. If you're both Irish you can't just decide to live there. No need to worry about it until then.

Dades

preilly79 wrote: »

The same way you raise a child catholic/jewish/muslim. You expose them to a belief system that you endorse and subscribe to.

Careful now! There's a large thread on this page full of atheists including myself trying show that atheism is not a belief system... (unlike for e.g., your wife's Humanism).

preilly79 wrote: »

You raised something which I hadn't thought of before ... communities. The whole idea of an atheist/humanist community is somewhat counter productive I think. I don't know, maybe it would probably be better for us not to hole ourselves up in a community? It just feels exclusive and reeks of segregation, not really what i'd like to achieve.

I meant perhaps to contact such a community just to get a flavour for how non-Christians were treated in that part of the US. I can see why 'holing yourselves up' on arrival could be counter-productive.

preilly79

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Daniel Dennett has a slightly counter intuative but very good idea on this kind of thing. Instead of removing a child from religious dogma or practises, allow the child to be part of the community teachings and practises around. However at the same time make it your business to teach the child about all the religions even the one surrounding you. From hindus, to catholics, to islam, to buddism. Teach them as histories, facts, figures, what each one beleives. Dont teach them as TRUE. Just the facts.

Dennett beleives such knowledge can act as a form of anti virulent against such dogmas and Dawkins is a good example of this. He says his loss of faith was connected solely to the realisation that theres 100s of religions and its merely an accident of geography which one you beleive. The more he learnt of science and OTHER religions the more he realised their use as stories, but not as holding any real truth.

There is a you tube debate between dennett and dinesh dsouza I really recommend you watch. Just watch the opening statement from dennett, you dont need to watch it all. He lays out this idea of child education about religion very well in it.

Having never had a child myself my own personal opinion is probabaly of no use to you but I will mention it anyway. I think when I have a child, whether it starts leaning towards religion or atheism, i dont care which, im going to constantly challange that child. Always asking "Oh you beleive that do you? Why? What have you heard to make you think that? Why do you think its true? Have you considered the other side?" My child will then make its own choices and will have a very strong reason for doing so as every beleif the child holds will have been questioned thoroughly and well thought out. BY the time anyone with any dogma comes to the child trying to convert them, they will have heard every argument before and considered their response to it. And if my child turns out intensely religious then so be it. I will have fun debating to the bitter end

Thanks! While Dennet makes me fall asleep sometimes he makes some good points.

I should point out that I do not intend to instil a belief that all religions are wrong etc, purely a system of thought that every single thing must be analysed and judged on it's own merit and supporting facts.

Again, thank you

preilly79

Sangre wrote: »

I assume you know how you'll be getting a visa to live in the US. If you're both Irish you can't just decide to live there. No need to worry about it until then.

I get it by default, sort of. She's an American citizen by birth and has been living here for a few years. I do still have to apply for the visa but the process is a little more 'streamlined'.

preilly79

Dades wrote: »

Careful now! There's a large thread on this page full of atheists including myself trying show that atheism is not a belief system... (unlike for e.g., your wife's Humanism).

And you know what mate? I'm staying very far away from that particular debate! Belief system might not be the best choice of words, and I think a lot of people are arguing over the semantics of the term more than its meaning. I'm not a philosopher so I'm definitely not going there.

Dades wrote: »

I meant perhaps to contact such a community just to get a flavour for how non-Christians were treated in that part of the US. I can see why 'holing yourselves up' on arrival could be counter-productive.

Not a bad idea, I'll see what Google has to offer up.

Dades

preilly79 wrote: »

And you know what mate? I'm staying very far away from that particular debate! Belief system might not be the best choice of words, and I think a lot of people are arguing over the semantics of the term more than its meaning. I'm not a philosopher so I'm definitely not going there.

This forum would be a lot quieter place but for semantics.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Just don't mention God, when they hear about him at school explain what different religions believe. Tell them to read about it on the internet. Explain you don't believe it's real but it's up to them to believe whatever they believe/

Zillah

Sangre wrote: »

The US is far more secular than Ireland is. Its status has far better protection than anything in Irish law. However, it is certainly a very religious society (in some areas anyway).

Legally the US is more secular, culturally (which is the topic at hand I believe), far less so for some areas. The bible belt for example.

Zombrex

preilly79 wrote: »

The same way you raise a child catholic/jewish/muslim. You expose them to a belief system that you endorse and subscribe to.

Isn't that just as bad as raising your child teaching them that the catholic position is correct.

preilly79 wrote: »

Your argument makes the premise that a person needs to be raised a certain way for them to make a choice and have an open mind, and that atheism precludes them from this. That's somewhat arrogant.

My argument makes the premise that children tend to accept what they are told by their parents. Which is why you have, in general, Christian children and Christian parents, Jewish children and Jewish parents, Hindu children and Hindu parents.

Which is why you want to be careful to separate the difference between raising your children with an open mind and raising them atheist (ie raising them with the position there is no God).

If you simply tell them there is no God they may accept this but they may resent it as well as they get older, in the same way children raised in religious families resent being instructed that religion X is correct and all others are wrong.

preilly79 wrote: »

Our child can make that choice at any stage in their life. And regarding having an open mind; what prevents an atheist from having an open mind?

Nothing, but an atheist has already made up his or her mind, where as I imagine you want to leave your children free to make up their mind on their own. You don't want to make their mind up for them.

preilly79 wrote: »

If evidence for something exists, it will be evaluated and a judgement will be made. Any rational person, irrespective of their upbringing should be capable of such analytical thought.

Again what people are taught by their parents has a very powerful effect on them. These beliefs, instilled in childhood, do not simply fall away when a person becomes a rational adult

preilly79 wrote: »

You'll have to explain the difference between atheism (which may be described as a rejection of religious dogma), and raising a child without religious dogma. Or have I missed your meaning completely?

If you raise your child telling them that religions are wrong or mistaken in their belief of a god, that is raising them atheist.

If you raise your child telling them that you don't follow a religion or believe in god, but that they are free to if they wish, that is raising them without religious dogma.

As someone else said I think children should be exposed to as much religion as possible, but ALL religion. Religion is a very important part of most peoples lives. And the child as they get older can make their own mind up. They shouldn't be instructed that one religion is correct, and equally that all are wrong.

Sangre

Zillah wrote: »

Legally the US is more secular, culturally (which is the topic at hand I believe), far less so for some areas. The bible belt for example.

I thought I just said that...

nozzferrahhtoo

Zillah wrote: »

Legally the US is more secular, culturally (which is the topic at hand I believe), far less so for some areas. The bible belt for example.

This doesnt stop them in the US trying their best to do everything and anything they can to get around the secular law. Currently Senate Bill 733 trying to bring Creationism into Louisiana's schools.

preilly79

Wicknight wrote: »

Isn't that just as bad as raising your child teaching them that the catholic position is correct.

I don't think so, one of them IS correct and the other is not *opens bag of worms, don't take the bait!*

While I don't believe in the existence of a god I to tolerate a certain level of spirituality as some of the beliefs inherent in religion do provide some guidance to people. That's not a bad thing in my mind. And our child will definitely be brought up with an understanding of as many of the worlds religions as possible, but also an understanding of the facts that disprove their validity.

Wicknight wrote: »

My argument makes the premise that children tend to accept what they are told by their parents. Which is why you have, in general, Christian children and Christian parents, Jewish children and Jewish parents, Hindu children and Hindu parents.

Which is why you want to be careful to separate the difference between raising your children with an open mind and raising them atheist (ie raising them with the position there is no God).

If you simply tell them there is no God they may accept this but they may resent it as well as they get older, in the same way children raised in religious families resent being instructed that religion X is correct and all others are wrong.

That's pretty straightforward and obvious, but I'm unsure why it would be wrong to tell a child that there is no god? I'm certainly not going to tell my child that there might be a god. What I will say is "I'm an atheist and this is what I believe. Here's the facts I use to support my position and the rationale behind my position. Here's what religion x believes and the facts they use to support their position. What do you think?".

Wicknight wrote: »

Nothing, but an atheist has already made up his or her mind, where as I imagine you want to leave your children free to make up their mind on their own. You don't want to make their mind up for them.

You're totally right, I don't want to make up their mind for them. I do want to instil an understanding of everything, but where does that stop? That people believe in the existence of a god has about as much weight as peoples belief in the existence of the flying spaghetti monster. One is no more correct than the other. I'd like them to know what exists, and that the chances of any of them being true are so slim to be almost impossible ... in all cases.

Wicknight wrote: »

Again what people are taught by their parents has a very powerful effect on them. These beliefs, instilled in childhood, do not simply fall away when a person becomes a rational adult

Again, you're totally right. They don't just fall away. They are removed by a process of reasoning and evaluation. I pity anybody who can't do either, or who does both and ignores the outcome.

Wicknight wrote: »

If you raise your child telling them that religions are wrong or mistaken in their belief of a god, that is raising them atheist.

If you raise your child telling them that you don't follow a religion or believe in god, but that they are free to if they wish, that is raising them without religious dogma.

As someone else said I think children should be exposed to as much religion as possible, but ALL religion. Religion is a very important part of most peoples lives. And the child as they get older can make their own mind up. They shouldn't be instructed that one religion is correct, and equally that all are wrong.

Thanks for the clarification, I may have the re-phrase some of my earlier posts then! Regarding them all being wrong ... I won't go there. That's another thread

Dades

preilly79 wrote: »

That's pretty straightforward and obvious, but I'm unsure why it would be wrong to tell a child that there is no god? I'm certainly not going to tell my child that there might be a god.

That's a fair point. If you don't tell your child you believe there is no god, you are pretty much telling them there might be - and I could see why you couldn't (in all honesty) do that. Sure, your belief will sway the child thinking initially, but its one thing to make a child aware of what you believe, and another to raise them to believe it.

BTW Wicknight, I don't believe for a minute you would sit down with you kid, open the Big Book of World Religions and give them all equal time and weight.

Gambler

My sister is agnostic and my nephew is not part of any religion. This has led to a really interesting problem trying to find a school spot for him.

She applied to the local National school which (like all schools) has a system of preference for members of the local parish but they do also have a number of spots that they keep for minority religions.

However because my nephew is neither a member of the local parish nor a member of a monority religion she was unable to get him a spot in the school even though three generations of our family have all gone there!

This is the biggest issue I have come accross that will affect anyone raising a child in any society (Irish, American or other) that isn't a member of a particular faith.

Zombrex

preilly79 wrote: »

I don't think so, one of them IS correct and the other is not *opens bag of worms, don't take the bait!*

:pac:

preilly79 wrote: »

While I don't believe in the existence of a god I to tolerate a certain level of spirituality as some of the beliefs inherent in religion do provide some guidance to people. That's not a bad thing in my mind. And our child will definitely be brought up with an understanding of as many of the worlds religions as possible, but also an understanding of the facts that disprove their validity.

Well that is a bit of slippery slope, as most religions go to create length to define their religions in such a way that they can't be disproven. For example it is very hard to disprove the existence of the Christian God because he is defined by followers as existing outside anything that can be tested.

preilly79 wrote: »

That's pretty straightforward and obvious, but I'm unsure why it would be wrong to tell a child that there is no god? I'm certainly not going to tell my child that there might be a god.

I wouldn't tell him/her either. I would tell him/her that you don't believe in a god, and tell them that others do, and explain to them different religions.

This goes back to your mention of "facts" above. The facts, as honestly as you can produce them to your children, is that you don't believe in god but others do. You can explain why you don't, and if you think you can explain why you think others do.

preilly79 wrote: »

What do you think?

Perfect

preilly79 wrote: »

You're totally right, I don't want to make up their mind for them. I do want to instil an understanding of everything, but where does that stop? That people believe in the existence of a god has about as much weight as peoples belief in the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

Well that is really up to your children to decide for themselves. Attempting to teach them that is not only rather pointless, but also very subjective

preilly79 wrote: »

Again, you're totally right. They don't just fall away. They are removed by a process of reasoning and evaluation. I pity anybody who can't do either, or who does both and ignores the outcome.

That is kinda my point. You can't reason and evaluate for your children. You have reasoned and evaluated that God does not exist (as have I and most of the people on this forum), but you can't then teach that position to your children and have them also say they reasoned that position, because they wouldn't have, they would have been taught that position.

preilly79

Gambler wrote: »

My sister is agnostic and my nephew is not part of any religion. This has led to a really interesting problem trying to find a school spot for him.

She applied to the local National school which (like all schools) has a system of preference for members of the local parish but they do also have a number of spots that they keep for minority religions.

However because my nephew is neither a member of the local parish nor a member of a monority religion she was unable to get him a spot in the school even though three generations of our family have all gone there!

This is the biggest issue I have come accross that will affect anyone raising a child in any society (Irish, American or other) that isn't a member of a particular faith.

That's really interesting. I'm pretty sure they don't have this as a stated policy though, which is a pity as it could easily be challenged in court.

thanks

Gambler

Yeah, I dunno if it's a written statement anywhere but it means that she's still got no school place for him and he's supposed to be starting in september. She applied to a few places and didn't get in to any so she's gone back to the school we all went to and they are apparently "seeing what they can do".

I've suggested she get in touch with the local TD if it goes on much longer but not sure if that's going to really help.. It's strange when not being part of any group actually puts you at a dissadvantage like this

ArthurDent

preilly79 wrote: »

That's really interesting. I'm pretty sure they don't have this as a stated policy though, which is a pity as it could easily be challenged in court.

thanks

Legally you ARE allowed discrimninate in this way. If the school is denominational you are allowed to "protect its ethos" by having an enrolment policy the gives priority to children of that faith over those of other or no faiths. You cannot point blank refuse to enrol someone of another/no faith but if there are more children than places you CAN prioritise those of that faith.

ArthurDent

Gambler wrote: »

Yeah, I dunno if it's a written statement anywhere but it means that she's still got no school place for him and he's supposed to be starting in september. She applied to a few places and didn't get in to any so she's gone back to the school we all went to and they are apparently "seeing what they can do".

I've suggested she get in touch with the local TD if it goes on much longer but not sure if that's going to really help.. It's strange when not being part of any group actually puts you at a dissadvantage like this

A TD may have some effect - but its better to go down the section 29 appeal route. Tell your sister that any school that rejects her child MUST give a written reason for this decision and MUST supply her with their enrolment policy. If she reads the policy and it looks like she has been treated unfairly she can contact the Dept of Education and take this appeal (sounds scary, but from parent's point of view it really isn't too bad.

Stercus Accidit

I was raised atheist, in a catholic school.

Keep the kid away from religion, a 10 year old shouldn't have to argue with an entire class of other idiot 10 year olds or feel excluded by being different.

I hated people asking me why I didn't "do" religion, then being argued with about where I "came" from, as they regurgitated nonsense about god or whatever it was they were told to believe.

Make sure its a non-religious school if possible, its not worth the hassle to the kid.

Gambler

I agree, ideally there would be a school that has no religious policy\leaning but I don't know of any in our area and only know of one in Dublin in general!

If you know where we can find more I'd love some info

Orion

ArthurDent wrote: »

You cannot point blank refuse to enrol someone of another/no faith but if there are more children than places you CAN prioritise those of that faith.

They actually can. It's written into the Equal Status Act. They can also refuse to employ or fire someone who doesn't subscribe to the school's ethos under the exclusions for education/religious organisations in the Employment Equality Act. And these sections have already been found to be constitutional by the Supreme Court.

Orion

Gambler wrote: »

I agree, ideally there would be a school that has no religious policy\leaning but I don't know of any in our area and only know of one in Dublin in general!

If you know where we can find more I'd love some info

You don't say what area or what level but there are a number around. Educate Together schools are multi-denominational - they teach about all religions but do not do religious instruction in any. And for secondary community schools are supposed to be multi-denominational too.

For primary schools see http://www.educatetogether.ie/5_schools/listofschools.html for the current list of opened schools. And http://www.educatetogether.ie/6_start_up_groups/startupgroups.html for new ones due to open this year (the Carpenterstown one was declined but is now under judicial review).

Húrin

It depends on what part of the USA you're talking about. It's a diverse country.

Dades wrote: »

Careful now! There's a large thread on this page full of atheists including myself trying show that atheism is not a belief system... (unlike for e.g., your wife's Humanism).

Materialism is, of course, a belief system, or at the least, a world view.

ArthurDent

Macros42 wrote: »

They actually can. It's written into the Equal Status Act. They can also refuse to employ or fire someone who doesn't subscribe to the school's ethos under the exclusions for education/religious organisations in the Employment Equality Act. And these sections have already been found to be constitutional by the Supreme Court.

you are right re the employment issue - but if it's a national school and there are places vacant after all those of the particular denomination have taken their places available the school would be obliged to prove that taking on this child would be detrimental to the ethos of that school - to my knowledge no school has done this and if they did you would be well within your rights to take a section 29 appeal and have reasonable expectaction that you would win