Quotas: Yay or Nay?

Xavi6

So the [url='http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/7417746.stm]BBC has released figures[/url] from its research into the amount of English players currently active in the Premiership. Here are some of the results -





Basically it highlights the drop in the amount of 'homegrown' talent in the league (although Irish players are not included even though they are products of an academy).

This graph below shows how the EPL compares roughly with other leagues -



As you can see, current World Champions Italy have an average of over seven Italians per club starting line up while EPL sides average less than four Englishmen.

Blatter has said he wants to limit the amount of foreigners to five per starting eleven. Is this a good move? Will the likes of Arsenal be unfairly shafted? After all, they built up a strong young squad within the rules of the game and now it will be completely torn apart by such a drastic change. Personally I don't really mind it given the strength of City's academy and the homegrown players we already have in our squad.

So what do you think?

Dont be at yourself

That there are so many foreign imports into the Premiership just highlights the fact that there aren't enough quality English players around. A Premiership swamped with foreigners isnt the cause of a lack of quality English players, it's a result of it.

As a football fan, the bottom line will be the impact of any such moves on the quality of the football.

If every team is to be required to field 6 English players, the big four will snap up the quality ones, leaving the other clubs even further behind.

78 English players, the 78 best English players, turned out on the final day of the season, spread amongst nearly every team in the league. Were these rules introduced, we'd see undoubtedly see the Big Four with half of these players, and that in itself would lead to a more uncompetitive league. It would have a knock-on effect with the quality on display down the table - there'd be an inevitable drop in quality as the likes of Villa and Everton would have to look past the likes of Barry, Young, Osmon and so on.

Then there's the undoubted negative impact that such a move would have on the Irish national team. Like it or not, the English league pyramid offers our players a more robust challenge than our own league, and to see Irish players' opportunities curtailed would be to the detriment of the national team.

One Cold Hand

As a Villa fan, I say go for it!!! We had an average of over 6 english starters last season anyway!

One a serious note, I think a 5 foreigner rule would be ridiculous in this day in age. Don't think it'll happen (anyway, I thought this wasn't possible with the EU and all that?). I think something like 3 english players would be a reasonable compromise. I pretty much agree with NBM actually, the overall standard of the league would suffer, and you would see the likes of Bent, Downing, Barry, Johnson etc being bought up by the big 4.

/edit
Actually just thinking, there seems to be more and more foreign kids being bought up by english clubs. I know Villa have been linked with/bought a good few in recent times. These are 15/16 year olds who are brought in for clubs youth acadamies. Maybe this is where the FA should be targeting. If there was a strict limit in the youth teams, this would allow the young english (and irish!) players to develop for longer.

iregk

Its a strange one alright and I think given the politically correct world in which we live in now with the eu employment lays this is not workable. That said I do kinda agree with it.

The graphs though don't tell the full story only one side. Ok take Italy, current world champions. Now take their starting 11 in teh WC final and tell me how many were playing in Italy at the time. I'd say possibly all 11. But they are a strange case.

Now lets take say the previous 3 WC winners prior to Italy. Brazil, France, Brazil. How many of their starting 11's were actually playing in France and Brazil? Without looking into it, I'd say not many. So thats another angle on the argument.

On the other side the likes of Arsenal are taking the foreigner rule to a whole new level. Not only is the first team swamped with them but the academy which was historically to breed young talent now has the most expensive youth money can buy from all around the world. They are a foreign club through and through. So a rule like this would bring them back to scratch. Is that fair?

mikemac

You are discussing quotas and noone has brought up EU law yet?
Like it or not, any footballer who is an EU citizen can ply their trade anywhere in the EU and they have as much right as any Englishman to play Premiership football.

It's an interesting topic but the EU will shoot it down before it gets anywhere.
Work permits for Americans, Africans and Asians is a different topic but they already have to have criteria like international caps or exceptional ability and these have to be approved first.

A no vote from me on this poll

Xavi6

micmclo wrote: »

You are discussing quotas and noone has brought up EU law yet?
Like it or not, any footballer who is an EU citizen can ply their trade anywhere in the EU and they have as much right as any Englishman to play Premiership football.

It's an interesting topic but the EU will shoot it down before it gets anywhere.
Work permits for Americans, Africans and Asians is a different topic but they already have to have criteria like international caps or exceptional ability and these have to be approved first.

A no vote from me on this poll

But no one is stopping them plying their trade and working in the UK. All that's being said is that they can't do it at the same time. No laws are being broken if Van Persie comes on for Adebayor at half time.

gucci

Xavi6 wrote: »

As you can see, current World Champions Italy have an average of over seven Italians per club starting line up while EPL sides average less than four Englishmen.

I find that statistic really baffling, I cant think of any Italian INTERNATIONAL players playing in England?(Please someone correct me?) Which basically leads me to ask are all the foreign players necessary?
Are some of them just easy options for clubs? Where an english/scotish/welsh/irish guy would do just as good of a job but any player who has a half decent season is overpriced and therefore the team choses Roberto Di Left-backio instead who is only 300k?

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

As a football fan, the bottom line will be the impact of any such moves on the quality of the football.

If every team is to be required to field 6 English players, the big four will snap up the quality ones, leaving the other clubs even further behind.

Yeah I agree, any impact would be short-term! There would be a season or two maybe where the clubs with more english players would be better equipped to cope, but the richer clubs would just plunder these. Then the smaller clubs would be in constant transition, breeding players for the bigger clubs.

I don't think there is an easy answer for this. The team I follow (Liverpool) used to have(and still do as the poll shows) alot of substandard players, and alot of those guys were "foreign" but there were enough of the home nation players who were crap too.
Its not a simple answer that enforcing rules like this will make players perform better imo. It goes back to coaching from day 1, so that young players regardless of nationality can actually play football.

Xavi6

gucci wrote: »

Are some of them just easy options for clubs? Where an english/scotish/welsh/irish guy would do just as good of a job but any player who has a half decent season is overpriced and therefore the team choses Roberto Di Left-backio instead who is only 300k?

Not so much easier but cheaper. How much did Rio Ferdinand cost? And how much did Kolo Toure cost? Or Vidic? Or Hyypia? It makes good business sense to buy foreign. If it didn't then they wouldn't do it.

mikemac

Xavi6 wrote: »

But no one is stopping them plying their trade and working in the UK. All that's being said is that they can't do it at the same time. No laws are being broken if Van Persie comes on for Adebayor at half time.

Two words: Restrictive Practices

I can't quote a specific law for your example but all the player has to do is claim they cannot practice their trade to the best of their ability and are not being afforded equal opportunities with their Engish teammates. Discrimination on the basis on nationality. It just isn't going to work and the FA or UEFA would be taken on if they tried this.

The EU is like the Mafia, you don't **** with it.

Xavi6

micmclo wrote: »

Two words: Restrictive Practices

I can't quote a specific law for your example but all the player has to do is claim they cannot practice their trade to the best of their ability and are not being afforded equal opportunities with their Engish teammates. Discrimination on the basis on nationality. It just isn't going to work and the FA or UEFA would be taken on if they tried this.

The EU is like the Mafia, you don't **** with it.

I know what you're saying but there's no way they would even consider bringing it if there wasn't some sort of loophole to exploit. Sure all they have to say is "Adebayor is in poor form so we rested him" or "We decided to save Van Persie until the defence was tired". There are any amount of excuses that could be used to get around it.

They are still being paid the same, still train the same and are still given the opportunity to prove their worth to the first team. They are still competing for places, just less of them.

gucci

Xavi6 wrote: »

Not so much easier but cheaper. How much did Rio Ferdinand cost? And how much did Kolo Toure cost? Or Vidic? Or Hyypia? It makes good business sense to buy foreign. If it didn't then they wouldn't do it.

Yeah sorry thats what i meant, easier option is the cheaper one Ferdinand is one of the most insane transfer fees ever, no excuse me TWO of the most insane transfer fees ever! When you consider practically no other centre halfs move for over 10m (I can only think of Woodgate off the top of my head, who strangely enough is..........English!) (ok i forgot about Stam and a few more there)
Rio is a good player and has improved, but a combined fee of something like 45 million if you take into account what both leeds and man u have paid for him is insane.

mikemac

I had thought of that but is Wenger supposed to come up with excuses for 3-4 players ever week? And then every manager is supposed to do the same?
Of course you claim every week that certain foreign players were injured but you need all clubs to do this.

So if it involves all clubs then that means meetings and it would be broken up by the EU the same way that monoplies and cartels are broken up. Pity they don't break up the cars sellers cartel in Ireland!

It's a great thread btw, good points but I just don't see it happening

I'm voting yes to Lisbon because I'm terrified of the consequences of voting no :eek:;)

Dont be at yourself

Blatter has apparently consulted with various representatives of the EU, and he reports that they largely agree with the idea, and he is confident that an arrangement can be made.

For what it's worth, Platini has described the scheme as unworkable.

Xavi6

micmclo wrote: »

I'm voting yes to Lisbon because I'm terrified of the consequences of voting no :eek:;)

Can you do me a favour and sum up the 'yes' and 'no' sides to Lisbon in a sentence or two? I've missed the whole thing and anything I try to read is littered with crappy personal and long winded opinion.

mikemac

I posted in jest and I realy don't want this thread to go offtopic because of me.

95% of what’s in the treaty is already in place, this just streamlines it and makes it more efficient.
Ireland will lose some things like votes short-term but ultimately do you think it’s worth it long-term to have a stronger EU?
I do, many don’t

This is the soccer forum after all

Xavi6

micmclo wrote: »

I posted in jest and I realy don't want this thread to go offtopic because of me.

95% of what’s in the treaty is already in place, this just streamlines it and makes it more efficient.
Ireland will lose some things like votes short-term but ultimately do you think it’s worth it long-term to have a stronger EU?
I do, many don’t

This is the soccer forum after all

Ok I'm still lost but cheers anyway. I thought it might have something to do with the topic and didn't want to be in the dark.

mikemac

No, it has very little to do with this topic at all. The laws about EU citizens working in other countries are in place for years though they sometimes change

Sure everyone has heard of the Bosman ruling and that was decided by the EU as you probably already know

Pepe LeFrits

Quite simply, it is a terrible idea.

Mitch Connor

As a matter of interest, how many italian internationals start for Inter Milan, champs for the last 3 years running. I don't think they have many, do they?

grames_bond

tbh a five foreigner rule can be construed (sp??) as discrimination couldnt it?! and anyway the more quality players the greater the league and the more satisfying when you do well!

leninbenjamin

i prefer the UEFA proposition. 'homegrown' players. seems fairer, still places need for the clubs to ensure they have good academies and youth setups but doesn't discriminate. I think if this were enforced you might as a side effect see more native players coming through as it places more emphasis and pressures on the youth setup.

Evil_Clown

If England had qualified for the Euros would that article have been the headline on the BBC sport website for 2 days ?

There were 10 English players in the Champions League final between 2 english clubs would that have happened if they did not have so many quality foreign players in their midst pushing the standards of the League in which they play to probably the best in the world
I would be against quotas, how many players would we as premiership fans have missed out on if they existed

gucci

Tauren wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how many italian internationals start for Inter Milan, champs for the last 3 years running. I don't think they have many, do they?

Very true, I think when they played Liverpool in Champions league, Materatzzi was the only Italian in the starting XI and i think they had only Toldo on the the bench?

leninbenjamin wrote: »

i prefer the UEFA proposition. 'homegrown' players. seems fairer, still places need for the clubs to ensure they have good academies and youth setups but doesn't discriminate. I think if this were enforced you might as a side effect see more native players coming through as it places more emphasis and pressures on the youth setup.

It might lead to more home grown players, or it might also increase the "live-trade" of young footballers, like big clubs moving for 14 year olds all over the place. I know obviously it happens with Irish players moving to the UK at an early age too.

Xavi6

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Quite simply, it is a terrible idea.

Says the Arsenal fan :pac:

mike65

Won't happen, shouldn't happen. Certainly within the EU players can and should be able to play wherever they can.

Would a quota actually make English players more expensive?

Mike.

Pepe LeFrits

Xavi6 wrote: »

Says the Arsenal fan :pac:

Says the football fan!

OhNoYouDidn't

micmclo wrote: »

Sure everyone has heard of the Bosman ruling and that was decided by the EU as you probably already know

No, it was decided by the European Court of Justice.

I support this from a narrow and selfish point of view.

5 foreigners in British teams restricts the amount of Irish playing over there, which means the LoI becomes more attractive and it helps start a virtous circle.

Galvasean

The English press are such hypocrites. One minute they gloat about how the Premiership is the strongest league in the world. Then they complain about the amount of foreigners in the league. Well guess who makes the league so strong?

Ronaldo, Drogba, Fabregas, Torres, etc. All very English names.

OhNoYouDidn't

mike65 wrote: »

Won't happen, shouldn't happen. Certainly within the EU players can and should be able to play wherever they can.

Why? Work permits and quotas apply in various industries and differ in various EU countries. Why not football?

It is more likely that a certain % of the playing staff must be domestic as opposed to the starting 11, but there is no law to prevent this.

Galvasean

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

5 foreigners in British teams restricts the amount of Irish playing over there, which means the LoI becomes more attractive and it helps start a virtous circle.

But wont that have a negative affect on the Irish international team? When players move to England they can access better training facilities and in theory become better players sooner.

OhNoYouDidn't

Galvasean wrote: »

But wont that have a negative affect on the Irish international team? When players move to England they can access better training facilities and in theory become better players sooner.

the top EPL players will stay, the fringe ones drop a division etc and most of the League One players will stay at home. Wages are the same anyway.

I would question how many English middle division clubs have better training facilites better than the top LoI clubs.

LuckyLloyd

Yeah, I'm all for Irish players being able to move abroad with no restrictions. Having them stuck over here would spell doom for our hopes to compete internationally. I can't understand why anyone on an Irish soccer forum would give a **** about the supposed plight of the English national team. However, to throw a dog a bone I'd note that:

- English players who are good enough play in the premiership regularly;
- The Championship surely compares favorably with the top to bottom standard and intensity of leagues like France, Belgium, Austria and isn't far off the likes of Portugal and Holland? I'm sure the foreigner : domestic player ratio is more agreeable at that level. And if a player tears it up there - the premiership comes calling;
- From a national team perspective, 170 players active in the supposed "best league in the world" should provide a more than adequate player base for a senior international side. I cannot see how having more players playing in a division with diluted quality and less exposure to different footballing mentalities would solve their problems. What they need to do is just fix it so that they are no longer required to qualify / can play all their matches in Wembley. They'll be grand then; :rolleyes:


On a broader political level, we live in a small island economy. While we have enjoyed raging success the past 10 years, our history is that of emigration to find improvement and opportunity in times when the "Celtic Tiger" did not exist. Those times may return and, in any case, our boom was latterly sustained by the availability of cheap labor from places like Eastern Europe, etc - where the prospect of taking non skilled retail jobs that we sniffed at represented progress for them. In short, the free and unfettered movement of workers is something that has benefited the majority of this forum enormously. I am against any measure that pushes away from that or would weaken our international team. This idea gets a thumbs down from me.

Pepe LeFrits

Galvasean wrote: »

The English press are such hypocrites. One minute they gloat about how the Premiership is the strongest league in the world. Then they complain about the amount of foreigners in the league. Well guess who makes the league so strong?

Ronaldo, Drogba, Fabregas, Torres, etc. All very English names.

What makes it so disturbing is that the advocates of the quota system seem to think that this will actually help the English team.

I wonder, would Ashley Cole be as good a player as he is now if he had been spending all these years going up against David Bentley or Jermaine Pennant instead of Cristiano Ronaldo, or Rio Ferdinand going up against Shola Ameobi instead of Didier Drogba...

LuckyLloyd

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I would question how many English middle division clubs have better training facilites better than the top LoI clubs.

I'm going to say the vast majority of them have better facilities - right down to the bottom of league two.

Xavi6

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I can't understand why anyone on an Irish soccer forum would give a **** about the supposed plight of the English national team.

I would have thought that was fairly obvious. Pretty much everyone that posts here supports an English team in some shape or form so it will affect their club.

Those that don't support a team over there could be still affected by it through players not going to England due to lack of opportunities.

OhNoYouDidn't

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm going to say the vast majority of them have better facilities - right down to the bottom of league two.

I'm going to say you are wrong then.

LuckyLloyd

Xavi6 wrote: »

I would have thought that was fairly obvious. Pretty much everyone that posts here supports an English team in some shape or form so it will affect their club.

Those that don't support a team over there could be still affected by it through players not going to England due to lack of opportunities.

No, that wasn't what I meant. I understand why people here would discuss this. But don't understand why anyone here would actually agree with it and think it is a good idea for clubs to be forced to play more English players.

OhNoYouDidn't

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yeah, I'm all for Irish players being able to move abroad with no restrictions. Having them stuck over here would spell doom for our hopes to compete internationally.

The best (ie the top 40 or so) would still move to England. Its the middle lot that I am talking about.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

In short, the free and unfettered movement of workers is something that has benefited the majority of this forum enormously. I am against any measure that pushes away from that or would weaken our international team. This idea gets a thumbs down from me.

But there is not, nor ever has been, 'free and unfettered movement of workers'. We have draconian work permit and immigration policies.

LoI teams cannot sign any player from outside the EU without them being regular internationalists.

OhNoYouDidn't

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No, that wasn't what I meant. I understand why people here would discuss this. But don't understand why anyone here would actually agree with it and think it is a good idea for clubs to be forced to play more English players.

Because it would be good for the League of Ireland. And France, Holland, Poland etc.

LuckyLloyd

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'm going to say you are wrong then.

Sligo Rovers
Finn Harps
Cobh Ramblers
Galway United
Waterford
Limerick
Monagahan
Bray Wanderers
Shamrock Rovers
Kildare County
Athlone Town
Wexford Youths
Sporting Fingal

You seriously saying those clubs are going to have better set ups than the league one / league two average? I'd imagine that the club with the best overall resources available is someone like UCD who can lump in on all of the stuff to hand at Belfield. And the bigger clubs that I haven't mentioned above probably only are on a par with the league one / league two average - if that.

LuckyLloyd

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But there is not, nor ever has been, 'free and unfettered movement of workers'. We have draconian work permit and immigration policies.

LoI teams cannot sign any player from outside the EU without them being regular internationalists.

Within the EU we have free movement of workers and people aside from exceptions regarding the last countries integrated. And the more movement between the EU and elsewhere the merrier I say - I'm sure Xavi himself would agree with that!

LuckyLloyd

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The best (ie the top 40 or so) would still move to England. Its the middle lot that I am talking about.

The middle lot should be free to further their careers to the greatest extent and give themselves the best opportunities of getting in the right shop window and earning the most money.

Tusky

If the English players were good enough, they would be playing in the premier league. All this will do is drop the quality of the teams and league in general. Big no from me.

OhNoYouDidn't

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Within the EU we have free movement of workers and people aside from exceptions regarding the last countries integrated. And the more movement between the EU and elsewhere the merrier I say - I'm sure Xavi himself would agree with that!

But its hardly 'free and unfettered'. Working in Europe can be extremely restrictive.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Sligo Rovers

Shamrock Rovers
Wexford Youths


You seriously saying those clubs are going to have better set ups than the league one / league two average? I'd imagine that the club with the best overall resources available is someone like UCD who can lump in on all of the stuff to hand at Belfield. And the bigger clubs that I haven't mentioned above probably only are on a par with the league one / league two average - if that.

How did Rovers end up on that list? Second to none facilities. As do Wexford.

The standards in the LoI are far higher and more professional than a lot of you fans of overseas football seem to want to give it credit for.

titan18

The Italians had this sort of stystem in place in the 80s.I think it was a max of 3 players in the squad could be foreign.

It would improve the game as the youth systems in England would be forced to produce quality players and those players would get a chance in the first team of their respective clubs.Look at the amount who come through United and never get a chance.Its the same with most clubs.They decide which foreigner they want to buy and sell their youth players.

It also would potentially help the Irish game as many of Irish players never get a chance when they move to England.They end up playing in the lower leagues or not at all.If they all stayed in Ireland and got 1st team football, they might be better players.There are very few irish players playing in the Premiership as it is as most of them arent good enough.

LuckyLloyd

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

How did Rovers end up on that list? Second to none facilities. As do Wexford.

The standards in the LoI are far higher and more professional than a lot of you fans of overseas football seem to want to give it credit for.

Ok, Rovers and Wexford have great facilities relative to the other clubs. The rest on that list are rubbish. And relativity being what it is, it might be easy to overrate how good your setup is when you are comparing it to the likes of Limerick and Cobh.

The point is that many of the players who go across to England will develop at a greater rate than if they remain in the EL. There is that percentage of teenagers who aren't good enough in the first place and would be better served staying here with a local club and finishing out their leaving cert. And that would improve things. But many of those teenagers don't exactly destroy the EL when they return to Ireland after all the doors over there shut on them. The academies will probably still take a "throw the kitchen sink at the fan" approach on some level.

estebancambias

Actually why are people voting yes?(unless they think it will benefit Eircom league)

dc69

If this comes in then we are screwed.The Irish players will just be ditched in order for better players.

estebancambias

Not really. To the English we are part of the problem. We are foreigners as well. The point is Andy Reid will be replaced by a player probably less talented in him who is English.

Unearthly

Yawn hate these recommendations from Blatter etc.

10 English players started the CL final last week. There are plenty of good English talent out there if they are worried about the national team.

dc69

estebancambias wrote: »

Not really. To the English we are part of the problem. We are foreigners as well.

Exactly,we will be screwed.