Quotas: Yay or Nay?

DSB

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Sligo Rovers
Finn Harps
Cobh Ramblers
Galway United
Waterford
Limerick
Monagahan
Bray Wanderers
Shamrock Rovers
Kildare County
Athlone Town
Wexford Youths
Sporting Fingal

You seriously saying those clubs are going to have better set ups than the league one / league two average? I'd imagine that the club with the best overall resources available is someone like UCD who can lump in on all of the stuff to hand at Belfield. And the bigger clubs that I haven't mentioned above probably only are on a par with the league one / league two average - if that.

Do you actually have a clue about this or are you just wildly speculating? As mentioned above some of those sides have excellent set-ups well equal to their British counterparts.

As for the foreigner rule, I don't think its feasible due to EU laws as mentioned already, and also I don't think its ethical. Football is employment, and I know full well if this happened in a shipping factory where there was a rule set that there had to be a certain level of Irish employees, there would be outrage.

LuckyLloyd

DSB wrote: »

Do you actually have a clue about this or are you just wildly speculating? As mentioned above some of those sides have excellent set-ups well equal to their British counterparts.

It was mentioned that two of them do. I just listed clubs that have struggled somewhat financially or otherwise over the past few years. Or who haven't been full - time AFAIK. And I know from experience that the facilities at Sligo Rovers were disgraceful for a while.

DSB

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It was mentioned that two of them do. I just listed clubs that have struggled somewhat financially or otherwise over the past few years. Or who haven't been full - time AFAIK. And I know from experience that the facilities at Sligo Rovers were disgraceful for a while.

Wouldn't use the full-time/part time thing as a legitimate measurement to be honest.

LuckyLloyd

DSB wrote: »

Wouldn't use the full-time/part time thing as a legitimate measurement to be honest.

Well, I did note that UCD probably have excellent facilities.

SantryRed

dc69 wrote: »

Exactly,we will be screwed.

How? Would love if this rule came back in and these players had to come back over to the EL. That would really give it the kickstart it would need.

Won't happen anyways, with EU law and all that malarkey.

iregk

Most have taken the "it will be bad for ireland" line and in a sence thats true when its comes to the english league. But hold on, has nobody thought that all the players we loose to english teams may stay or come back to Ireland and play for the IRISH Premier League? We do have one you know...

dc69

SantryRed wrote: »

How? Would love if this rule came back in and these players had to come back over to the EL. That would really give it the kickstart it would need.

Won't happen anyways, with EU law and all that malarkey.

they would clearly end up in the chamiponship,the EL couldnt afford their wages tbh.

And I dont think they would get the same thrill playing in front of 10 people.

LuckyLloyd

iregk wrote: »

Most have taken the "it will be bad for ireland" line and in a sence thats true when its comes to the english league. But hold on, has nobody thought that all the players we loose to english teams may stay or come back to Ireland and play for the IRISH Premier League? We do have one you know...

And therefore they will be playing in a league where the depth of talent is currently the equivalent of the bottom half of league one / top half of league two. They will be playing infront of much smaller average attendances in a culture where there is less pressure to succeed. As such, they will not be as well prepared to contribute to a successful International side and participate in crunch qualifiers infront of large or hostile crowds.

And while their involvement would help improve things over here to some extent - we're still likely to have a league that is much lower in terms of any measurement than the Championship. Doesn't sound awesome to me.

dc69

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And therefore they will be playing in a league where the depth of talent is currently the equivalent of the bottom half of league one / top half of league two. They will be playing infront of much smaller average attendances in a culture where there is less pressure to succeed. As such, they will not be as well prepared to contribute to a successful International side and participate in crunch qualifiers infront of large or hostile crowds.

And while their involvement would help improve things over here to some extent - we're still likely to have a league that is much lower in terms of any measurement than the Championship. Doesn't sound awesome to me.

If the EL was ever to get them back,it would require governement funding to pay their wages.The EL should be aiming for the scottish model,where you have 2 big teams and the rest not so good.thats the best we can hope for.

Pigman II

They tried this back in the early 90's. Didn't make the England team any better and made English clubs in Europe whipping boys.

Personally I think it's fine to let the best players in the world for the best teams in the world (whereever either set may come from). International football is dead anyway so it doesn't really matter where young players come from either. Might as well start following the NHL system where most of the players in the league are Canadian.

estebancambias

Pigman II wrote: »

They tried this back in the early 90's. Didn't make the England team any better and made English clubs in Europe whipping boys.

Personally I think it's fine to let the best players in the world for the best teams in the world (whereever either set may come from). International football is dead anyway so it doesn't really matter where young players come from either. Might as well start following the NHL system where most of the players in the league are Canadian.

Pigman, I like your posts, but please tell me how you come to that conclusion?

I seen an interview with Kaka a while back, and he said the most important trophy for him is World Cup.

If International football is dead, then continential football(champions league, uefa cup) is approaching its final days.

LuckyLloyd

The thing is, the influx of foreigners to the top division in England aside, England aren't actually that good at football. They have won a WC and reached the semi finals of a EC when in both cases they got to play all of their games at home in Wembley in front of raucous partisan support. They also didn't have to bother with the indignity of a qualification campaign for either tournament.

They aren't failing internationally because of only having 170 active EPL players. They are failing internationally because their entire tactical and technical approach to the game from the bottom up is inferior to the opposition. Maybe it seems like there is more under achievement than ever over the past ten years because they are believed to have more world class players and player pool depth than at any time in their history. That isn't actually the case though.

The Premiership bandwagon and the English sports media serve to overhype the current members of the national side so that we look at them on paper and think that they are surely good enough to pip the likes of Italy and Germany to a major championship. The reality is infact very different and they are failing because they have traditionally lacked either the necessary quality in terms of players at key positions or coaching or both.

They need to re - examine what goes on in their academies and underage development squads and fix things so that the 170 players that do come into the Premiership are good enough - not fix it so that they just have more of the flawed players they currently produce getting their game at the top level.

OhNoYouDidn't

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And therefore they will be playing in a league where the depth of talent is currently the equivalent of the bottom half of league one / top half of league two. They will be playing infront of much smaller average attendances in a culture where there is less pressure to succeed. As such, they will not be as well prepared to contribute to a successful International side and participate in crunch qualifiers infront of large or hostile crowds. .

If you think a player at Scunthorpe or Colchester is under more pressure 'to win' than a Rovers, Bohs or Cork player you are quite frankly on cloud cuckoo land. Whatever your opinion of the stadard of the league, a trophyless season is the chop for managers here.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And while their involvement would help improve things over here to some extent - we're still likely to have a league that is much lower in terms of any measurement than the Championship. Doesn't sound awesome to me.

The LoI was comparable to the old first division up until the 70's. With a bit of planning and luck, it could be so again.

LuckyLloyd

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If you think a player at Scunthorpe or Colchester is under more pressure 'to win' than a Rovers, Bohs or Cork player you are quite frankly on cloud cuckoo land. Whatever your opinion of the stadard of the league, a trophyless season is the chop for managers here.




The LoI was comparable to the old first division up until the 70's. With a bit of planning and luck, it could be so again.

1) European performances? The teams other than the top four or five? The Lenstier Senior league sides who can't cause upsets in the FAI cup anymore cause they are on holidays?
2) Up till the 70's huh? Compare the record of Irish teams in European competitions during the 60's to that of their English counterparts. Not even close. The league over here has been significantly inferior since WW2 by varying degrees. I can't comment on before WW2 but does it matter?

witnessmenow

As has been brought up already this would be illegal for all the EU boyos, there has to be complete freedom of movement for them. They have to be treated exactly as equals, introducing this rule would go against this

Seaneh

I'm all for Quotas, look at the Italian League, there have never been an over abundance of foreigners and because of that Italian youth has always gotten a chance at top flight football, this has helped their progression and as a result the national team has the biggest player pool in world football and are the current world champions.

OhNoYouDidn't

witnessmenow wrote: »

As has been brought up already this would be illegal for all the EU boyos, there has to be complete freedom of movement for them. They have to be treated exactly as equals, introducing this rule would go against this

Illegal? FIFA and UEFA are based in Switzerland and by and large can do what they want.

If contracting workers and not allowing them quit and find new jobs is not illegal, why would the English FA restricting non-nationals be?

Football does not fit into the normal employment model.

Seaneh

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Illegal? FIFA and UEFA are based in Switzerland and by and large can do what they want.

If contracting workers and not allowing them quit and find new jobs is not illegal, why would the English FA restricting non-nationals be?

Football does not fit into the normal employment model.

Yes, but the teams are based in the EU which means EU laws apply to them...

The only law they could implicate (would still effect a lot of EPL players) would be the one they use in Italy where you can only sign 1 extra non-eu player per season and can only have 3 in your matchday squad.

Pepe LeFrits

Italy are world champions because their kids get a fantastic footballing education, not because they have a huge pool of players to choose from.

England only have 170 players in the PL to choose from, big deal. Only 30 of those players at most will ever get a look in anyway.

OhNoYouDidn't

Seaneh wrote: »

Yes, but the teams are based in the EU which means EU laws apply to them....

What EU law though? This is bandied about like fact. FIFA are the arbitrers of who can and cant play, not the EU.

If EU law appled to football, disabled people and birds would be entitled to play professional football.

Seaneh

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

What EU law though? This is bandied about like fact. FIFA are the arbitrers of who can and cant play, not the EU.

If EU law appled to football, disabled people and birds would be entitled to play professional football.

they are, if they are good enough.

DSB

dc69 wrote: »

If the EL was ever to get them back,it would require governement funding to pay their wages.The EL should be aiming for the scottish model,where you have 2 big teams and the rest not so good.thats the best we can hope for.

Why do people insist on babbling about things they know nothing about?

LuckyLloyd

DSB wrote: »

Why do people insist on babbling about things they know nothing about?

Well pray tell sir, what future would you knowledgeably predict for the Eircom league if a rule was imposed on the English league that limited the amount of non domestic players on the pitch at any one time to five (hypotethically speaking of course given that the rule will probably not wash with EU legislation and considering that it would be imposed on all leagues affiliated with UEFA)?

For bonus points, discuss the relative standing of the Eircom league and speculate on what would be required to significantly improve it.

Cheers.

DSB

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well pray tell sir, what future would you knowledgeably predict for the Eircom league if a rule was imposed on the English league that limited the amount of non domestic players on the pitch at any one time to five (hypotethically speaking of course given that the rule will probably not wash with EU legislation and considering that it would be imposed on all leagues affiliated with UEFA)?

For bonus points, discuss the relative standing of the Eircom league and speculate on what would be required to significantly improve it.

Cheers.

I'd assume the Robbie Keanes of the world would stay where they are. The Stephen Hunts of the world would drop down a division, and those below that would fall to the lower regions of the English tiers aswell as the top tier of the Eircom League. I don't think anyone is suggesting that this move would be sending Robbie Keane to Rovers or Duff to Bohs but I presume it would definitely result in some of the players heading over to England, either staying here to ply their trade, or coming home.

As for where the Eircom League is now, there is no doubt that there is huge strides to be made. MNS is a big factor as is all the positive media coverage that can be gotten. Big strides will finally be made when there is more money pumped into the league by men like Kelleher, and obviously the big step will be made when an Irish side qualifies for the Champions League or UEFA Cup group stages and the couch potato fans decide to get out of their nice warm groove.

mike65

Okay you can stop now taling about how this will help the EL.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/may/28/premierleague2

Plans by the Fifa president Sepp Blatter to force football clubs to field a majority of their nationals in their starting line-ups were wrecked today when the European Commission denounced the scheme as illegal and discriminatory. In a severe blow to Blatter's proposals ahead of a Fifa congress in Sydney on Friday, Vladimir Spidla, the European Commissioner for employment, said any EU country where the Blatter "6+5" formula was applied would face legal action.

The announcement effectively kills off the Fifa proposal. Blatter has been lobbying hard for support for his radical and controversial quotas scheme which could change the face of the modern game. The scheme would compel clubs to have six players from their home countries in their starting 11. But the plan appears unworkable if not applied in Europe. "The Commission is showing the red card to the 6+5 rule," said Spidla. "Professional footballers are workers."

Mike.

Chardee MacDennis

Xavi6 wrote: »

I know what you're saying but there's no way they would even consider bringing it if there wasn't some sort of loophole to exploit.

Xavi i thought you knew better! There is no way this will happen its just Blatter & co being foolish trying to look like they actually do something to earn their ridiculous wages.

And the EU today gave the 5/6 rule "the red card", i like the home grown rule though.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

What EU law though? This is bandied about like fact. FIFA are the arbitrers of who can and cant play, not the EU.

If EU law appled to football, disabled people and birds would be entitled to play professional football.

you couldnt be more wrong.

mike65

Can we bring back karma just for OhNoYouDidn't?

Mike.

DSB

mike65 wrote: »

Okay you can stop now taling about how this will help the EL.

Whys that? Perfectly on-topic discussion.

mike65

Cos the fupping law has been laid down by the EU! (see above)

Mike.

DSB

mike65 wrote: »

Cos the fupping law has been laid down by the EU! (see above)

Mike.

I think most people here realise that its a very unrealistic proposition. But regardless, its current affairs and therefore worthy of discussion. Most of what has been said as regards the EL has been hypothetical.

OhNoYouDidn't

Call_me_al wrote: »

you couldnt be more wrong.

How so?

In normal work you can give a months notice and quit for another job. Not so in sport.

In normal work, there is equaltiy legislation to adress gender and disability imbalances. Not so in sport.

In normal work there are health and safety rules. Not so in sport.

In normal work, your boss cant shout at you and throw things. Not so in sport.

FIFA is based in Switzerland exactly so it can avoid these things. What the EU Commisioner has said is that clubs cannot dicriminate on the employment front, ie no quotas on signings. That does not in anyway stop a FIFA rule in relation to the matchday squad.

I ask again, what 'EU law' stops FIFA issuing a rule that starting elevens must have 5/6/7 domestic players? UEFA already insists that a certain number of players in Champions League squads be products of your youth system. Whats the difference?

The amount of people passing themselves off as experts on employment law is laughable.

grahamo

I'm for a quota on foreign players. It really is sad that young lads who work their way up through the ranks at a club simply don't get the chances to prove themselves at the top level these days that players got up to the start of the premier league in 92/93.
I realise EU citizens have the right to work in any EU country but maybe it could be a gentlemans agrement between FIFA and the clubs.

DSB

grahamo wrote: »

I'm for a quota on foreign players. It really is sad that young lads who work their way up through the ranks at a club simply don't get the chances to prove themselves at the top level these days that players got up to the start of the premier league in 92/93.
I realise EU citizens have the right to work in any EU country but maybe it could be a gentlemans agrement between FIFA and the clubs.

Yes I'm sure Abramovich's impeccable morals will automatically make him agree to that.

LuckyLloyd

grahamo wrote: »

I'm for a quota on foreign players. It really is sad that young lads who work their way up through the ranks at a club simply don't get the chances to prove themselves at the top level these days that players got up to the start of the premier league in 92/93.
I realise EU citizens have the right to work in any EU country but maybe it could be a gentlemans agrement between FIFA and the clubs.

Thats bollix. If you are good enough you are old enough and will get game time and come through the ranks. A free labour market is about creating a meritocracy. If you have enough value within your field you will always have the job you want. The majority of young lads coming through English clubs aren't good enough and haven't been for some time.

grahamo

DSB wrote: »

Yes I'm sure Abramovich's impeccable morals will automatically make him agree to that.

Yes, it seems that cash is King these days. I suppose the money men at the Top 4 clubs equate the top 4's Champions league success over the past few years or so with bringing in what they see as better quality foreign talent.

grahamo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Thats bollix. If you are good enough you are old enough and will get game time and come through the ranks. A free labour market is about creating a meritocracy. If you have enough value within your field you will always have the job you want. The majority of young lads coming through English clubs aren't good enough and haven't been for some time.

I think many of the young lads coming through the ranks at clubs are good enough. The problem these days is that teams want instant success which means bringing in established players with commercial value that will put bums on seats and sell jerseys and merchandise.

DSB

grahamo wrote: »

I think many of the young lads coming through the ranks at clubs are good enough. The problem these days is that teams want instant success which means bringing in established players with commercial value that will put bums on seats and sell jerseys and merchandise.

Good enough by what measurement though? If a young centre mid isn't as good as Essien, than in the eyes of Abramovich, he isn't good enough. Good enough should be measured in terms of your opposition.

Pepe LeFrits

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

In normal work you can give a months notice and quit for another job. Not so in sport.

Nonsense. There are vast numbers of jobs where you can't give a month's notice and quit for another job. Footballers have contracts, just like in many other professions.

In normal work, there is equaltiy legislation to adress gender and disability imbalances. Not so in sport.

In normal work there are health and safety rules. Not so in sport.

In normal work, your boss can’t shout at you and throw things. Not so in sport.

As above.

You seem to have an extremely narrow view of what ‘work’ is, and you also seem to be under the impression that sport is somehow unique and deserving of special treatment. It isn’t. None of what you’ve written above is solely unique to sport.

FIFA is based in Switzerland exactly so it can avoid these things.

The members of FIFA that are based in the EU however, cannot.

What the EU Commisioner has said is that clubs cannot dicriminate on the employment front, ie no quotas on signings. That does not in anyway stop a FIFA rule in relation to the matchday squad.

The match-day rules impact directly who the club will choose to employ.

I ask again, what 'EU law' stops FIFA issuing a rule that starting elevens must have 5/6/7 domestic players? UEFA already insists that a certain number of players in Champions League squads be products of your youth system. Whats the difference?

The new proposals would force clubs to discriminate against foreign workers, the current rules do not.

OhNoYouDidn't

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Nonsense. There are vast numbers of jobs where you can't give a month's notice and quit for another job. Footballers have contracts, just like in many other professions..

Name me one other profession that you cannot quit your job and move to another?

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

The new proposals would force clubs to discriminate against foreign workers, the current rules do not.

The Champions League insist that 7 (i think) of your squad must have come through domestic youth systems and and inclusive 5 your own.

If they can do that, legally, and enforce it, they can introduce a quota.

Won't happen mind, but there is no legal mechanism to stop FIFA introducing a matchday quota.

Pepe LeFrits

Footballers can in most cases quit their job, they are just contractually prevented from finding an alternate employer until the terms of their contract release them. Similar to most big business, like banking.

The existing rule has no restrictions on nationality, which is the crux of the issue. There is a legal mechanism in place to block a nationality-based quota, or else Blatter wouldn't be lobbying to have an exception made.

Pepe LeFrits

http://www.liv.ac.uk/footballindustry/bosman.html

Worth reading for anyone with an interest on the topic.

OPENROAD

Galvasean wrote: »

The English press are such hypocrites. One minute they gloat about how the Premiership is the strongest league in the world. Then they complain about the amount of foreigners in the league. Well guess who makes the league so strong?

Ronaldo, Drogba, Fabregas, Torres, etc. All very English names.

Steady on knocking the English media, remember it is Blatter who is pushing this whole thing, don't think he is English, from what I've heard and read overall, the media are not pushing it.

OhNoYouDidn't

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Footballers can in most cases quit their job, they are just contractually prevented from finding an alternate employer until the terms of their contract release them. Similar to most big business, like banking.

I work in banking and I can assure you, I can hand in my notice, work out a month and join another bank.

I cannot quit my football team and sign for another one.

Ergo, football is different to most other industries.

Pepe LeFrits

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I work in banking and I can assure you, I can hand in my notice, work out a month and join another bank.

I cannot quit my football team and sign for another one.

Good for you. So do I, and so can I, but purely because of the contract I have. Do you think your CEO can give a months notice and stroll down to the next bank down the road?

Ergo, football is different to most other industries.

Although the EU accepts the 'specificity of sport', it grants no exemption from EU law for the industry.

The current legal situation is that any quotas limiting the number of foreigners (who are EU citizens) from club football are illegal. Direct discrimination on the grounds of nationality is expressly prohibited by EU law and the Commission and ECJ have made it clear that any attempt to bring in the type of quota system that existed before the Bosman case would be challenged.

The above quotes are written by Dr Geoff Pearson, who is an expert.

OhNoYouDidn't

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Good for you. So do I, and so can I, but purely because of the contract I have. Do you think your CEO can give a months notice and stroll down to the next bank down the road?

Yes. Unless he has a golden handshake

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

The above quotes are written by Dr Geoff Pearson, who is an expert.

I'll type this slowly. I'm not disputing that a quota on how many EU staff you can hire would be illegal. I am saying that a quota on matchday squads is different. If FIFA wanted to do this, they could, like the Champions league squads.

witnessmenow

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Illegal? FIFA and UEFA are based in Switzerland and by and large can do what they want.

If contracting workers and not allowing them quit and find new jobs is not illegal, why would the English FA restricting non-nationals be?

Football does not fit into the normal employment model.

mike65 wrote: »

Okay you can stop now taling about how this will help the EL.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/may/28/premierleague2



Mike.

:rolleyes: lolz

Pepe LeFrits

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'll type this slowly. I'm not disputing that a quota on how many EU staff you can hire would be illegal. I am saying that a quota on matchday squads is different. If FIFA wanted to do this, they could, like the Champions league squads.

Type it as slowly as you like, it doesn't make it any more true.

What you're saying is contradicted by the evidence, as well as the explicit writings of a qualified expert in law and transfer regulations.

Mr. Presentable

Tauren wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how many italian internationals start for Inter Milan, champs for the last 3 years running. I don't think they have many, do they?

Interestingly, the club is not called Inter Milan - I think only the English call them that - they are Internazionale. Their ethos is and was to be composed of the best from around the world. An international club, if you will.

Mr. Presentable

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Thats bollix. If you are good enough you are old enough and will get game time and come through the ranks. A free labour market is about creating a meritocracy. If you have enough value within your field you will always have the job you want. The majority of young lads coming through English clubs aren't good enough and haven't been for some time.

Correct on all counts. Do you suppose the system is letting the young players down, and trails the academies of other European leagues?

OhNoYouDidn't

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Type it as slowly as you like, it doesn't make it any more true.

What you're saying is contradicted by the evidence, as well as the explicit writings of a qualified expert in law and transfer regulations.

witnessmenow wrote: »

:rolleyes: lolz

those articles refers to the employment side, not the football side.

you do understand the difference?