Non-VRT'd cars seizure N11

Slidey

markos79 wrote: »

for starters im not littlle im 6"4

You're only 6 inches tall?
getting a car where you can reach the pedals must be a chore...:pac:

ambro25

stevec wrote: »

I heard a rumor (albeit from a guy who has a rep for bullpoo) that the new NPR systems being brought in for tolls are going to track and flag if foriegn plates are being used for extended periods here.

Any truth?

Well, I'd have expected them to try that with the airport CP NPR already... But maybe not, since as there may a difference between one Co. being private and the other public Admittedly, it would be easy enough, as the airport CP NPR reads non-Irish plates just fine. But what good would it do, anyhow?

sk8board

stevec wrote: »

I heard a rumor the new NPR systems being brought in for tolls are going to track and flag if foriegn plates are being used for extended periods here.

this makes a lot of sense. Its just an additional benefit of the NPR.

as it records every NP, then for example an English reg car found one day is fine; but if its logged every 2nd week for 18 months? Then you know they're not here on hol's.

re: impounding cars, I'm all for it.

aside: there is a lady who I pass every morning just outside work for the past 2 years. Some mornings she's loading the kids into the XC90, some mornings she's further down the road at the school, some mornings she's walking back into the hse (you get the picture). But its a UK reg, and according to vrt.ie, her D5 auto owes the beloved Finance Minister a cheque for over €18,500. Whatever your opinions, thats a lot more than a speeding fine for any Garda that wants to knock on her door.

rebel.ranter

sk8board wrote: »

But its a UK reg, and according to vrt.ie, her D5 auto owes the beloved Finance Minister a cheque for over €18,500.

And the amount due is dropping as time goes by. I can understand why people avoid paying VRT, especially with all the talk of its potential illegality. However while it's in place we should all play by the same rules.

Then again the Irish way is to bend the rules, brown envelopes, driving in bus lanes, dodging VRT & road tax, off-shore accounts, poitin stills, house extensions without planning permission, (even full houses with out plannig for a few politicians!) all common place in Irish history.

peasant

sk8board wrote: »

this makes a lot of sense. Its just an additional benefit of the NPR.

as it records every NP, then for example an English reg car found one day is fine; but if its logged every 2nd week for 18 months? Then you know they're not here on hol's.

Now, don't get me wrong, I have no time for VRT dodgers ...but !

The number plate recognition system at the toll bridge is supposed to be used for collecting tolls only.

Any creation of a database for any other purpose has serious data protection implications and needs to be nipped in the bud.

To exaggerate:

How would you like it if your boss / mother / girlfriend would be able to check up on a database to verify that you were indeed stuck in traffic on the M50 at a given time (as you claim) instead of dossing at the beach with some friends?

Our privacy needs to be protected ...even that of VRT dodgers.

DublinDilbert

sk8board wrote: »

her D5 auto owes the beloved Finance Minister a cheque for over €18,500. Whatever your opinions, thats a lot more than a speeding fine for any Garda that wants to knock on her door.

The problem here is that any garda knows that this person can well afford a solicitor to fight their case and get their vehicle back, so it becomes a legal night-mare for them.

stevec wrote: »

I heard a rumor (albeit from a guy who has a rep for bullpoo) that the new NPR systems being brought in for tolls are going to track and flag if foriegn plates are being used for extended periods here.

Any truth?

I'd say it will be very good a picking up English registrations, as most of the time we take a system developed for England and adapt it for our own use. This was certainly the case with some of the NPR systems which the gardas tried using a year or two ago.

I wonder what the accuracy of the system has to be, as your going to be billing people for possibly large amounts of money. Also any vision system used outside is going to be adversely effected by weather conditions etc...

I'm not sure from a legal point of view could this type of evidence be used in court, as the basis for taking someone's car off them.

sk8board

rebel.ranter wrote: »

And the amount due is dropping as time goes by.

exactly, the 18.5 is actually the current amount due, not the amount when it was new

ambro25

peasant wrote: »

The number plate recognition system at the toll bridge is supposed to be used for collecting tolls only.

Any creation of a database for any other purpose has serious data protection implications and needs to be nipped in the bud.

+1 , but anyhow...at the risk (nay, certainty) of repeating myself: to what end would the NPR do that?

I can understand the logic of 'how', what I can't understand is what good it would do, as looking up the reg ain't exactly going to output where the car is kept or whose it is? i.e. the info customs need to enquire/do something about it?

Moreover, my understanding is that this new 'auto NPR system' will only work for IE reg'd cars, whereby expectedly UK (and others)-plated cars will be routed/signed/instructed to go through a manned (or coin/cash) booth?

sk8board

peasant wrote: »

Now, don't get me wrong, I have no time for VRT dodgers ...but !

The number plate recognition system at the toll bridge is supposed to be used for collecting tolls only.

Any creation of a database for any other purpose has serious data protection implications and needs to be nipped in the bud.

i agree, especially when they do the same barrier-free tolling elsewhere, and suddendy you can track a car on its journey. But it all comes back to the US/UK ideals of, if your doing nothing wrong, why should it bother you (I don't agree with this, but its very hard to influence it either way).

EDIT: Is there any legislation around the barrier-free tolling for retention of the data/registrations for periods of time? or who has access to them etc etc?

EDIT2: I would consider the ISP data retention act as being far more serious, as its a much more intimate record of peoples actions as opposed to what road they were on at what time

DublinDilbert

ambro25 wrote: »

Moreover, my understanding is that this new 'auto NPR system' will only work for IE reg'd cars, whereby expectedly UK (and others)-plated cars will be routed/signed/instructed to go through a manned (or coin/cash) booth?

To be honest i can't see this working at all... you would still need a row of toll booths (in both directions)... can you imagine how many English reg trucks roll off the boat in the morning, the go through the port tunnel, then down the M50.

I'd say there might be a lane for "honest" people who want to pay, but the majority will just drive on....

roadruner

We're paying enough road tax in this country tolls should be exempt
Unless you're a foreign reg vehicle of course, VRT dodgers included.

Tax disk and registration recognition should be in play, any of them don't meet the grade you pay.
Over €4k tax a year on 3 cars , I don't think I should pay tolls.

ambro25

roadruner wrote: »

We're paying enough road tax in this country tolls should be exempt
Unless you're a foreign reg vehicle of course, VRT dodgers included.

And how, pray tell, do you suggest tolling only visiting motorists? Put a "special toll" at the ferry landing in Dublin Port and Dun Laoghaire?

That would constitute a discriminatory practice contravening some of the most fundamental EU principles :rolleyes:

To be honest, I'd be looking at an immediate knee-jerk copycat in Holyhead as well, whereby Irish drivers (having paid their VRT) are still worse off

roadruner

ambro25 wrote: »

And how, pray tell, do you suggest tolling only visiting motorists? Put a "special toll" at the ferry landing in Dublin Port and Dun Laoghaire?

That would constitute a discriminatory practice contravening some of the most fundamental EU principles :rolleyes:

I didn't mention a 'special toll', irish vehicles with road tax paid should not have to pay tolls, visiting motorists who don't pay Irish road tax should be subject to tolls.
Visiting motorists in most EU countries pay tolls anyway.
So where would the discriminatory practice be?

Steve

peasant wrote: »

How would you like it if your boss / mother / girlfriend would be able to check up on a database to verify that you were indeed stuck in traffic on the M50 at a given time (as you claim) instead of dossing at the beach with some friends?

A lot of companies are already doing that with trackers (more in the UK than here though).

DublinDilbert wrote: »

I'm not sure from a legal point of view could this type of evidence be used in court, as the basis for taking someone's car off them.

I don't think so. It could be used as a basis to stop the car and investigate the VRT status though.

ambro25 wrote: »

That would constitute a discriminatory practice contravening some of the most fundamental EU principles :rolleyes:

No different to VRT then :eek:

company_car

blackiebest wrote: »

...Egan (him of westlife) is still driving his porsche cayenne *puke* on british plates, he has been for years now and that he has not paid for vrt is outrageous, considering his income! Not sure if he has yet taxed or bothered to display insurance on his Mini convertible yet either. Seriously this guy has had this porsche here on UK plates for at least 2.5 years.

Not content with murdering more good numbers since Pol Pot (or should that be Paul Potts) this uneducated dancer-crooner and his pimp (see http://www.octane.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=13397&page=40) refuse to pay Irish car tax.

What is it with awful people and non-payment of VRT? Everyone I know who illegally drives an English/NI reg here is.

daRobot

The self righteous attitudes of some of the people on this thread are just disgusting.

You can see how customs get tipped off about uk reg cars when you have these types of people taking it so very personally that someone hasn't paid their Vrt.

It's the whole embittered attitude of "Well I had to pay it, so i'll make sure that you do" that stinks. The gloating and taking pleasure about people having their cars impounded by customs is bizarre to me on a section of a forum that's supposed to be for car lovers.

Personally, anyone who can get away with not paying Vrt, I say fair f*cks to them. While the tax itself is technically legal, it's certainly not fair.

It'd would be easier to stomach the tax if the billions of revenue collected by this tax over the past few years went toward creating a fantastic road network, but it ain't so. Motorists are getting taxed heavily but getting nothing back, but the pleasure of driving on some of the worst roads in Europe.

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

roadruner wrote: »

We're paying enough road tax in this country
Over €4k tax a year on 3 cars , I don't think I should pay tolls.

you don't have to pay any tolls, just use an alternate route.:p
In fairness you choose to pay €4k road tak a year.

company_car

What is it with awful people and non-payment of VRT? Everyone I know who illegally drives an English/NI reg here is.

daRobot wrote: »

Personally, anyone who can get away with not paying Vrt, I say fair f*cks to them.

Q.E.D.

daRobot

company_car wrote: »

What is it with awful people and non-payment of VRT? Everyone I know who illegally drives an English/NI reg here is.



Q.E.D.

So am I deemed to be awful in your eyes now?

peasant

Handbags need to be checked in at the door please

daRobot

Well I promise not to use any pompous Latin abbreviations to highlight my point

company_car

daRobot wrote: »

So am I deemed to be awful in your eyes now?

Look it, think about this. Hypothetically, if you, assuming you illegally drive a yellow reg, got involved in a road rage incident with me, who doesn't drive a yellow reg, then what is to stop me brake testing you all the way to Dublin? You can't call the Gardai because they are liable to take your English car from you.

seamy_orr

company_car wrote: »

Look it, think about this. Hypothetically, if you, assuming you illegally drive a yellow reg, got involved in a road rage incident with me, who doesn't drive a yellow reg, then what is to stop me brake testing you all the way to Dublin? You can't call the Gardai because they are liable to take your English car from you.

Why don't you try this out, you might just be lucky and get followed home...

company_car

seamy_orr wrote: »

Why don't you try this out, you might just be lucky and get followed home...

This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

peasant

company_car wrote: »

This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

'tis indeed ...one more "shot" and you're gone ...

company_car

peasant wrote: »

'tis indeed ...one more "shot" and you're gone ...

So shoot me.

daRobot

company_car wrote: »

Look it, think about this. Hypothetically, if you, assuming you illegally drive a yellow reg, got involved in a road rage incident with me, who doesn't drive a yellow reg, then what is to stop me brake testing you all the way to Dublin? You can't call the Gardai because they are liable to take your English car from you.

For what it's worth ,I don't drive a uk reg.I paid my Vrt two days after bringing it in as didn't want to run the risk of getting it confiscated, but anyone who decides to take a chance and not pay it, I say good luck to them and hope they don't caught. Not the most law abiding opinion, but my opinion all the same.

No bitterness on my part towards anyone that didn't pay.

Your example is awful by the way. How are you to "hypothetically" know that the person isn't :

a) Irish living in Uk, and back temporarily with their car

b) A tourist

c) A N.I resident

All of which are driving legally on a uk plate, yet you'd choose to play a dangerous road game with them, which would ironically most likely end in the Gardai being called by you.

You might want to think before you type next time.

Steve

daRobot wrote: »

It'd would be easier to stomach the tax if the billions of revenue collected by this tax over the past few years went toward creating a fantastic road network, but it ain't so. Motorists are getting taxed heavily but getting nothing back, but the pleasure of driving on some of the worst roads in Europe.

Well said.

company_car wrote: »

So shoot me.

:eek:

peasant

company_car wrote: »

So shoot me.

done ...banned ...bye, bye

roadruner

FuzzyWuzzyWazza wrote: »

you don't have to pay any tolls, just use an alternate route.:p
In fairness you choose to pay €4k road tak a year.

Well I don't choose to pay road tax it's called law last time I checked.

As for alt routes, I do sometimes but if you've got to be somewhere taking the long way round isn't always the quickest.

We pay enough tax on everything else on this Island why should we pay tolls as well
let the government use tax payers money to fund the privatisation of our roads.

GTC

If you don't hand over your keys the car is seized anyway. Transporter vehicles can tap the rear brakes to force them off and the car is dragged off.

I appreciate the law depends mostly on Irish taxpayers and some see that as unfair, but its a huge amount of revenue lost if it is not pursued. Any cars I see around with UK plates I usually give them a tug to see what the story is, and give them a severe bollicking if they're playing the fool.

If the area is suitable, the car is seized there and then. All I can say is, get used to it. You won't get any sympathy from Guards or here on Boards.

Fratton Fred

I pplied for exemption from VRT in October, once we had decided to stay permanently in Ireland. Our application was, eventually, rejected despite the fact we had my car four years and my wifes 9 months prior to moving to Ireland.

I have appealed and we are still witing for the outcome.

We are worried that our cars will get seized as we have had them here for over a year on yellow plates. We are both insured with Quinn who know the situation so we are not a risk to other drivers, but the whole process is slow and painful.

GTC

Why would you be granted exemption?

furtzy

GTC wrote: »

If you don't hand over your keys the car is seized anyway. Transporter vehicles can tap the rear brakes to force them off and the car is dragged off.

I appreciate the law depends mostly on Irish taxpayers and some see that as unfair, but its a huge amount of revenue lost if it is not pursued. Any cars I see around with UK plates I usually give them a tug to see what the story is, and give them a severe bollicking if they're playing the fool.

If the area is suitable, the car is seized there and then. All I can say is, get used to it. You won't get any sympathy from Guards or here on Boards.

Exactly and good to hear. All taxes are collected by revenue and doled out accordingly so to all the non VRT payers don't compain when services are cut in your locality as you are contributing to that. Revenue take is down nearly €900m already this year. All avenues are being targeting to recoup any money they can so areas such as VRT which were over looked during the good times are now being actively pursued.

I'm not saying VRT is calculated fairly but get used to it as the country could not afford to abolish it. It generates over €2bn a year so if VRT is abolished that money has to come from somewhere be it higher VAT or higher PAYE

Fratton Fred

GTC wrote: »

Why would you be granted exemption?

Because we are EU citizens transfering residence, which entitles us to an exemption from VRT if we have owned the cars for more then 6 months. Proving this has been a nightmare, we have had to provide bank statements, gas bills all sorts.

My wife is an Irish citizen moving back to Ireland after four years away and they are being very hard to satisfy regarding her and her car. as they are teting it as a joint application we arer both still on yellow plates.

Steve

GTC wrote: »

If you don't hand over your keys the car is seized anyway. Transporter vehicles can tap the rear brakes to force them off and the car is dragged off.

I appreciate the law depends mostly on Irish taxpayers and some see that as unfair, but its a huge amount of revenue lost if it is not pursued. Any cars I see around with UK plates I usually give them a tug to see what the story is, and give them a severe bollicking if they're playing the fool.

If the area is suitable, the car is seized there and then. All I can say is, get used to it. You won't get any sympathy from Guards or here on Boards.

Allways good to get the official view on it, thanks.

Zube

Fratton Fred wrote: »

My wife is an Irish citizen moving back to Ireland after four years away and they are being very hard to satisfy regarding her and her car.

This is another unfortunate effect of the rampant abuse of the law in this area: law-abiding people trying to do it by the book get treated as likely tax-dodgers by the Revenue boys.

G-Money

I have to admit I don't know the in's out and out's and the legality of VRT. I assume it's not illegal otherwise the EU probably would have done something, however as far as I know it does go against some guidelines that the EU has set out in the Treaty of Rome.

As unfair as VRT is, I don't see the government getting rid of it anytime soon. I read something online about how they are raking in money from VRT which is replacing the money they lost after the abolition of stamp duty for first time buyers.

Regarding the quality of the roads, I'm from the north myself and a number of years ago it was easy to argue that the roads were better up here. However this has definitely swung in the opposite direction now IMHO. When I drive to Dublin, it's a great smooth road, easy to drive. Except for the idiot drivers who are out to kill others with their driving.

VRT is a pain however if I move to the republic, I intend to pay it. I could probably argue that I'm "only down for the day" as I have a northern/UK driving license and the accent to prove it, however it's kind of not worth the risk and the worry. I probably should have paid VRT a few years ago when I did live in the Republic however I didn't and I was spending the whole time worrying about being stopped and constantly looking over my shoulder. So this time I'd do it right.

My VRT is about 1000 euro and while I'd obviously prefer to have that in my pocket, I'd be willing to pay it just so I can relax. I guess the only annoying thing is that I doubt I would be staying in the republic for very long (2 years max) so I'd most likely end up re-importing it back into the north and having to change over the tax, insurance and NCT/MOT again. Ah well.

Steve

grandmaster wrote: »

I'm from the north myself......
VRT is a pain however if I move to the republic, I intend to pay it.

How long have you owned the car in the North? You are probably exempt.

Pirbright

well I'm in a similar situation:

English Born, Brought up in Dublin, English Full License, Family live in Dublin.

I've been in the British Army for 2.5 years mainly based up in NI. Had my jeep for over 12 months. I got hurt on exercise abroad and got treatment both sides of the border. I have all my paperwork - credit card, bank account, mobile phone, rent books, payslips etc (I even have a letter from the medical people saying why I got treatment down in Dublin). I also have my medical discharge papers and pension details.....decided to move back here for awhile - year or two so thought best to re-register my vehicle.

Got to the place, told my story and was told that I don't qualify for an exemption because I was down here getting treatment and "resided" here after operations on my leg.

So now I have to fork out 1500 euros. Well my sister will as I'm not going anywhere near the place ever again.....

Re-examing my decision to come back to this banana republic...

G-Money

It's a bit complicated. I bought the car a few years ago but I was living and working in the republic at the time. I then left and have been abroad and in the north since. I might be exempt but if I have to start producing documentation to claim the exemption then I run into problems. I have been living in the north for the last 8 months or so and havent been working so I have no documentation to back this up. Before that I was abroad but none of that documentation is in English and before that, I was working in Dublin and I don't really want to highlight that

pvt.joker

Pirbright wrote: »

well I'm in a similar situation:

English Born, Brought up in Dublin, English Full License, Family live in Dublin.

I've been in the British Army for 2.5 years mainly based up in NI. Had my jeep for over 12 months. I got hurt on exercise abroad and got treatment both sides of the border. I have all my paperwork - credit card, bank account, mobile phone, rent books, payslips etc (I even have a letter from the medical people saying why I got treatment down in Dublin). I also have my medical discharge papers and pension details.....decided to move back here for awhile - year or two so thought best to re-register my vehicle.

Got to the place, told my story and was told that I don't qualify for an exemption because I was down here getting treatment and "resided" here after operations on my leg.

So now I have to fork out 1500 euros. Well my sister will as I'm not going anywhere near the place ever again.....

Re-examing my decision to come back to this banana republic...

you know where the f*cking door is then don't you
No-ones forcing you to live here

Pirbright

Your point on VRT is??

peasant

warning for pvt. joker ...keep it civil or you will be shown the door

SomeDose

stevec wrote: »

This has been discussed over and over and over and over - it always decends into chaos and has to be locked.
The outcome always is:

Faction A:"I won't pay VRT because its unfair and I'm a rebel"
Faction B:"That's illegal and it just pushes up the tax for everyone else and I'm a sheep cos I abide by the law"

And never the twain shall meet

The FACTS are:

1. You have to pay VRT when you import a car whether you drive it or not.

2. Even if you bring the car in on a trailer and bury it in a hole, you still have to pay VRT.....

Although this would appear to be the case from the Finance Act you quoted, you've literally read the law to its letter. The Act says that it's an offence for a resident to be "in possession of a vehicle if it is unregistered". That same Act defines a vehicle as "a mechanically propelled vehicle". So why aren't revenue sat at the gates of Mondello every weekend seizing millions of euros worth of unregistered racing cars? Why aren't they at every rally around the country impounding half-million euro UK-reg'd WRC cars (which technically are liable for VRT since they are driven on public roads by ROI residents)? Here's why:

CHAPTER IV Registration and Taxation of Vehicles

130.—In this Chapter, save where the context otherwise requires—

"mechanically propelled vehicle" means a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by a mechanical means, including—

....but not including a tramcar or other vehicle running on permanent rails or a vehicle as respects which the Commissioners are satisfied that it is designed or constructed for off-road use (other than racing vehicles, scrambling vehicles or other sporting vehicles);"

Ergo, a car (be it racing, sporting or otherwise) is not liable for registration if it is not for use on a public road. And as far as I can tell, their definition of "register" or "registration" is not extrapolated to mean putting an actual registration plate on the vehicle.

I'll wager this aspect of the Act has never actually been challenged or brought up in court. If it ever was (i.e. if Revenue seized an unreg'd "road" vehicle from private property), I'd put my house on it being struck out of court in short order.

furtzy

Pirbright wrote: »

well I'm in a similar situation:

English Born, Brought up in Dublin, English Full License, Family live in Dublin.

I've been in the British Army for 2.5 years mainly based up in NI. Had my jeep for over 12 months. I got hurt on exercise abroad and got treatment both sides of the border. I have all my paperwork - credit card, bank account, mobile phone, rent books, payslips etc (I even have a letter from the medical people saying why I got treatment down in Dublin). I also have my medical discharge papers and pension details.....decided to move back here for awhile - year or two so thought best to re-register my vehicle.

Got to the place, told my story and was told that I don't qualify for an exemption because I was down here getting treatment and "resided" here after operations on my leg.

So now I have to fork out 1500 euros. Well my sister will as I'm not going anywhere near the place ever again.....

Re-examing my decision to come back to this banana republic...

enough of the banana republic rubbish. Stay in the U.K then since you are willing to fight in their army

peasant

What date is it? 1916?

markos79

peasant wrote: »

What date is it? 1916?

:D

furtzy

peasant wrote: »

What date is it? 1916?

Not at all but the banana republic term has always pissed me off. Having grown up in the north it pisses me off more to hear it from a British soldier....anyway back to VRT.....

peasant

furtzy wrote: »

....anyway back to VRT.....

yes, please ...:D