Crowbar approach??

ch252

Go to 1:30
Cool, now I really can't wait to start training for my PPL!:p Kind of strange for an ATCO to request that a pilot do such an approach? nice vid too, after the crowbar dude the following ATCO talks ridiculously fast!

Darragh

cp251

Skydive pilots use what in effect is a 'crowbar' approach once the jumpers have left. Or maybe more of a 'curly wurly' approach. The aim is to get back on the ground ASAP for the next load. Looks like great fun.

Ockham

Is the idea of a crowbar approach the same as sideslipping it in. Ive never heard of a crowbar but sideslipping to landing is a great laugh.

ch252

Ockham wrote: »

Is the idea of a crowbar approach the same as sideslipping it in. Ive never heard of a crowbar but sideslipping to landing is a great laugh.

Nah sideslipping is where your on an ils approach for parallel runways, say runway 26L is closed but 26R has no ils, you do the ils approach for 26L and sideslip to land on 26R, sounds like fun allright!

chickenhawk

darragh-k wrote: »

Nah sideslipping is where your on an ils approach for parallel runways, say runway 26L is closed but 26R has no ils, you do the ils approach for 26L and sideslip to land on 26R, sounds like fun allright!

Where did you get this from?

Sideslipping is were you have too much height and you cross control the aircraft to reduce lift and bring the aircraft down in as short as space as possable.

DublinDilbert

chickenhawk wrote: »

Where did you get this from?

Sideslipping is were you have too much height and you cross control the aircraft to reduce lift and bring the aircraft down in as short as space as possable.

Apparently very common in gliding... but it was also used in canada once on a commercial 767 which ran out of fuel.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

ronnie3585

darragh-k wrote: »

Nah sideslipping is where your on an ils approach for parallel runways, say runway 26L is closed but 26R has no ils, you do the ils approach for 26L and sideslip to land on 26R, sounds like fun allright!

Has to be a joke?

chickenhawk wrote: »

Where did you get this from?

Sideslipping is were you have too much height and you cross control the aircraft to reduce lift and bring the aircraft down in as short as space as possable.

Yes it reduces life but the major effect of a slip is to increase drag. As you are presenting a much larger kiel surface to the relative airflow the drag is greatly increased allowing altitude to be dissipated without increasing airspeed.

ch252

ah right, I stand corrected lads, the manouver does exist however, side something its called, I never seen it done, just heard of it existing.
Take Gatwick for example, the parallel runways there are pretty close so it would be possible there because AFAIK there is no ils for 26R, although it has been a while so don't hold me to that one!

ronnie3585

I've never heard of shooting an ILS app to one runway and then breaking off to land on a parallel runway, it sounds exceptionally dangerous and I can't see how it would work given the parameters of the localiser. The width of the localiser beam is deliberately narrow as it is an extremely precise instrument, typically between 3 and 5 degrees. As the approach continues the width of the beam becomes more narrow, it is therefore very difficult to see how you could fly down the ILS on one runway and then last minute lump to an accurate approach on a parallel runway.

ch252

ronnie3585 wrote: »

I've never heard of shooting an ILS app to one runway and then breaking off to land on a parallel runway, it sounds exceptionally dangerous and I can't see how it would work given the parameters of the localiser. The width of the localiser beam is deliberately narrow as it is an extremely precise instrument, typically between 3 and 5 degrees. As the approach continues the width of the beam becomes more narrow, it is therefore very difficult to see how you could fly down the ILS on one runway and then last minute lump to an accurate approach on a parallel runway.

I see where you're coming from, well in fairness it was off one pilot I heard it so I can't say with absolute confidence that it is or isn't true, just mistaked it with the sideslip, side was in the name of this move also, just cant for the life of me remember the name of it!

cp251

Darragh you are in fact almost correct. I think you are thinking of the 'side-step' approach. Where you might fly the ILS on one runway until you are visual and then 'side-step' to land on a parallel runway. The minima would in fact be higher than that of a precision approach. The pilot would use non-precision approach minima. You wouldn't be expected to arrive at 200 feet and then 'side-step.

Possibly then the pilot may indeed use a sideslip if he was a bit high. You really get some startling rates of descent in a sideslip. You can easily peg the VSI to the limit with enough height to play with, yet maintain a perfectly sensible speed.

ch252

cp251 wrote: »

Darragh you are in fact almost correct. I think you are thinking of the 'side-step' approach. Where you might fly the ILS on one runway until you are visual and then 'side-step' to land on a parallel runway. The minima would in fact be higher than that of a precision approach. The pilot would use non-precision approach minima. You wouldn't be expected to arrive at 200 feet and then 'side-step.

Thats what it was called! thanks cp251. I have heard of it happening in EGKK but never actually seen any video's or pics of it.

yaeger

Side Step happens more often then you think.
For one reason or another you may shoot an ILS and visually manouver to the parallel if required by ATC or you could ask for it yourself if it benefites you parking gate position. Its a visual manouver and rather done sooner rather then later. Generally its a good idea to brief it for approach as there is generally a different missed approach from the other side.
You can also have the circle to land where there maybe only an instrument approach on one end of the runway but the wind favours the other, So Shoot the ILS for say 27 , become visual and circle on a downwind to base to land visually on 09. Again a regular and safe operation.

jmayo

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Apparently very common in gliding... but it was also used in canada once on a commercial 767 which ran out of fuel.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

Yep sideslip is one of the quickest ways of dumping height if too high on approach in glider.
Also handy way of getting quickly out of cloud .
If you really want to see how much height you can drop quickly in a sideslip, try slipping a float plane, it comes down like a rock once the floats are no longer pointing forward
One important point to remember about sideslips is to maintain airspeed otherwise you will really stop flying and drop.
Other cool thing to do is jump from left sideslip to right one in one maneouver. Probably easier in glider than power aircraft.

electric69

Am i the only one who cant see the video? i can only see the outline of a white box? goddamn censorship in this country probably.

ch252

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHvr6a2DHOU&N

Theres the link

yaeger

Crowbar approach !..........seems from that clip its just another stoopid american phrase used in RT, certainly phrase not used in Europe.

ch252

You gotta love the American atc though!:D