Surfing Maps Stay - No further discussion on this

Enygma

Absolutely and I'm sure they'll have something to say about that too.

Gandalf23

DeVore wrote: »

No you arent required to respond to anything I say, however the very evident fact that I have been addressing/answering you while you seem to stoically ignore those responses calls into question the idea that you are really seeking answers ergo....

I leave the rest of this line of reasoning to the interested reader as it seems evident from here....

DeV.

Just because I didn't reply directly to you doesn't mean I have not considered what you said. Please dont take it personally

I didn't think you would be able to justify your accusations of me trolling and taking swings at rb. There's no need to accuse me of imaginary things just because I didnt reply to you ... that would be childish now wouldn't it?

Thanks,
G23

DeVore

Sorry, I didnt accuse you of anything other then APPEARING trollish.


Perhaps you think I was making some underhand comment or implying something?



Perhaps we havent met properly yet. Hi, I'm DeVore, when I have something to say, I'll make it pretty damned clear.

DeV.

randylonghorn

javaboy wrote: »

But if the break looks deceptively easy then even some sensible non-idiots might try it along with the dumb thrillseekers.

Yeah, but in some case neither would have known to go there without the map.

javaboy wrote: »

Darwin awards for everybody in the audience.

In my experience of teenagers (including of myself!) they have a Darwin-award-seeking programme built in as a matter of course ... in most cases, it self-destructs as they grow older (hopefully before they do) and they grow up to be, if not sensible, at least fairly sane.

DeVore wrote: »

Randy, your point about teenagers is well made but its an unfortunate downside of the OVERALL right way to do things.

If I give some noob a piste map and advice (as I have, countless times before) and he ignores it and decides to drop in off a ridge and makes himself the worlds biggest snowball, thats no reason not to mark runs as Black, Red etc...

One counter example doesnt mean its the wrong thing to do, just as one alcoholic doesnt mean we should close pubs.

Yeah, I guess ...

Permission to cross my fingers, though, Cap'n?

DeVore wrote: »

Finally, one point of principle here. If someone from Boards went and publically threatened others on "behalf of" of "from" the Boards community, I would be offering you his freshly fried testicles as peace-trophy. I'm not angry at you, I'm smart enough to focus my anger on the right person generally, but I'm furious about the threats to our mods and others.

Support plus a haon!



(Shurrup, Ruu, I just borrowed it!)

Rb

DeVore wrote: »

I'm just saying that if someone dragged Boards' pristine reputation into something like that, I would fry them

An angry DeVore is not a pleasant DeVore

DeVore

So Gandalf, now that I have you attention, what do you think of my suggestions as workable solutions to the issues facing the surfing community?

DeV.

Gandalf23

DeVore wrote: »

Sorry, I didnt accuse you of anything other then APPEARING trollish.

Perhaps you think I was making some underhand comment or implying something?

Perhaps we havent met properly yet. Hi, I'm DeVore, when I have something to say, I'll make it pretty damned clear.

DeV.

Hi, I'm Gandalf23, and its you who are APPEARING trollish now

Perhaps you could make it "pretty damn clear" where I was taking "another few swings" at rb please.

If you can that is. And if your not just being "trollish"

Thank you,
G23

DeVore

By the way surfers, I'm not completely without empathy for your situation. I have just never ever ever seen a situation where trying to keep information bottled up on the internet was the right thing to do.

You are facing a system that is DESIGNED to do what you want to stop it doing. A system that has defeated far more powerful people then you, threats and all. Its demolished entire industries and revolutionised others to the point where you wouldnt recognise them. (When was the last time you picked up a phone to a travel agent and booked a flight somewhere. Or a hotel. Or went to Golden Discs. Or bought a porno mag in person.... or or or or....)

Whats even madder is this idea: You hoard the information, so it becomes VALUABLE. When that happens you will see unscrupulous people GATHER that information for sale. Good luck threatening them!

There are too many people on this planet, let alone your little point-break. You've had it good for so long that you dont want to share because it means you wont have as much cake as you are used to. I can understand that. But don't seriously expect the people you are depriving of cake to play along. Thats not very smart.

So, either stick your head in the sand and progressively threaten newcomers until something comes to a head (like an assault charge or two) and very quickly you will find your toys being taken away from you and an "order" you dont agree with being imposed on your community, or... be smart and take control and determine what that order is.
Because this is only an itty-bitty wave of the internet storm.

DeV.

DeVore

Gandalf, trolls operate with very specific modus operandi. They harrass their target with repeated "questions" and if those questions are answered, they ignore or remove them from subsequent quotations or subtly change tack. If they are answered by someone else, then that post is ignored and they continue at their primary target, seemingly oblivious.

Since I put forward seemingly workable answers to your points and you continued at RB about those VERY points. Thats when you seemed trollish. I know you arent because you have been here for some time, I'm just saying that you did seem to be adopting those tactics.

I hope thats cleared things up. Now, perhaps you have been storing up a killer counter argument to mine all day. I await your blinding discourse in logic.

DeV.

Steve

I have written so many replies to this thread and have deleted them as I got too angry.

To summarise: I am in awe yet again of the boards community spirit but most posters here seem to know nothing of the danger and impartiality of the sea. She does not suffer fools.

There cannot be a 'piste map' created for an entity that changes moods from cute'n'cuddly to Karoma having a bad day on AH within the space of 10 minutes.

30+ years experience and I am still humbled by her power.

*I am not a surfer, I sail.

Bob the Builder

DeVore wrote: »

So Gandalf, now that I have you attention, what do you think of my suggestions as workable solutions to the issues facing the surfing community?

DeV.

Don't explain yourself DeV. The admins made a great decision, and that decision was made with the intent to protect the team that the admins give leadership to. They acted promptly on what happened.

As far as I'm concerned, Galdalf23, you are taking things very seriously, and screw me if I'm wrong, but didn't you make a thread here before asking why people got all hot and stuffy under the collar.

I'm not exactly sure what happened earlier and I'm not going to make specific comments, but Enygma, you see what happened with a certain business that tried to mess with Boards, you see stickied at the top of every forum; they fúcked with boards and they got a lot of haters...

...Well them surfer doods fúcked with one particular mod, and as a result, your sport, in general has gathered the hatred of the wider boards community. It will take a long time for the workings of the minority few to redeem itself.

Bob the Builder

stevec wrote: »

I have written so many replies to this thread and have deleted them as I got too angry.

To summarise: I am in awe yet again of the boards community spirit but most posters here seem to know nothing of the danger and impartiality of the sea. She does not suffer fools.

There cannot be a 'piste map' created for an entity that changes moods from cute'n'cuddly to Karoma having a bad day on AH within the space of 10 minutes.

30+ years experience and I am still humbled by her power.

*I am not a surfer, I sail.

Yes, but then you advise people of it's dangers. You dont get pissed with the mod, start making personal threats at someone trying to carry out their job, and then change your story/reasoning three or four times.

Of course the sea is dangerous, but if people go there looking for adventure, etc. they should have a bit of cop on to know danger when they see it.

Gandalf23

nevf wrote: »

Don't explain yourself DeV. The admins made a great decision, and that decision was made with the intent to protect the team that the admins give leadership to. They acted promptly on what happened.

As far as I'm concerned, Galdalf23, you are taking things very seriously, and screw me if I'm wrong, but didn't you make a thread here before asking why people got all hot and stuffy under the collar.

I'm not exactly sure what happened earlier and I'm not going to make specific comments, but Enygma, you see what happened with a certain business that tried to mess with Boards, you see stickied at the top of every forum; they fúcked with boards and they got a lot of haters...

...Well them surfer doods fúcked with one particular mod, and as a result, your sport, in general has gathered the hatred of the wider boards community. It will take a long time for the workings of the minority few to redeem itself.

I'd love you to show me where I'm gettin all hot and stuffy under the collar, or taking this too seriously.

I'm contributing in a clear, calm and rational manner without insulting anyone or trolling in any way. I feel like I have something to contribute here, and other surfers seem to agree.

vegaluca

I am lurking this purely to keep abreast of the goings on and don't want to be drawn into it because lots of phone calls and PM's have been made all day (29th) today to see if we can straighten this out.
But one thing has to be cleared up and that is that fuzzielogic has not been threatened he said so on an earlier post.
A picture of fuzzie had been posted with his personal details and used in the context that I (vegaluca) was outed (my name) by a derogatory slam by cpho1 and a mod had no problem with my name being slammed on the site. I joined yer site yesterday to get my name off what was a direct slam against me or The Kerry Surf Club I'm not sure which TBH.
Anyway, the perpetrator who posted the pic and details realized he did wrong and as he said to me he tried to take it down within thirty seconds or so but it was too late, world war 3 had kicked off. For the record the perpetrator doesn't come from Kerry.
Guys I'm not going to be drawn into the witch hunt ye got going on here as theirs no reasoning with ye, too many valid points falling on deaf ears.
We ( their's a lot of people behind the scene here not just the KSC trying to straighten this out) will continue to try and sort this out but it will be done in a civil manner.
Sincerely,
Paudie Kenny.

Bob the Builder

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I'd love you to show me where I'm gettin all hot and stuffy under the collar, or taking this too seriously.

I'm contributing in a clear, calm and rational manner without insulting anyone or trolling in any way. I feel like I have something to contribute here, and other surfers seem to agree.

I'm not arsed going back and getting quotes, but your posts are very defensive, and negatively toned.

What you give - you get. If you give posts like that, you're not going to receive many constructive answers. It's nothing personal against you.

Gandalf23

stevec wrote: »

I have written so many replies to this thread and have deleted them as I got too angry.

To summarise: I am in awe yet again of the boards community spirit but most posters here seem to know nothing of the danger and impartiality of the sea. She does not suffer fools.

There cannot be a 'piste map' created for an entity that changes moods from cute'n'cuddly to Karoma having a bad day on AH within the space of 10 minutes.

30+ years experience and I am still humbled by her power.

*I am not a surfer, I sail.

+1

Bullseye.

DeVore

Stevec, I have sailed too, and I grew up in Malahide (when it was still a fishing village) where my parents made damned sure I understood exactly how dangerous the sea was.

Curiously they also showed me where I should swim with my mates and where WASNT safe. They taught me how to swim, to know the times of the tides, the best and safest times to swim etc...

I'm very glad they didnt just say "jeezzz.. I hope he doesnt find the sea at the bottom of the road!".


I too know the power of the sea. I have been on a sailing ship in and through the middle of a Force 9 storm. Yeah, force 9
I never ever want to do that again, it was probably the most terrifying experience of my life and breaking my leg snowboarding doesnt even come close. But mountains are just as capable of savagery and pistes and off pistes are just as fickle about the weather. A piste that is black might be red or blue if the snow has been heavy and its all nice and powdery, but it could be lethal is if rained just before dawn and is covered with black ice and bald patches.

Are you seriously suggesting that we not publish what information our collective race has gathered about these surf locations? That seems wrong to me...

DeV.

Gandalf23

nevf wrote: »

I'm not arsed going back and getting quotes, but your posts are very defensive, and negatively toned.

What you give - you get. If you give posts like that, you're not going to receive many constructive answers. It's nothing personal against you.

Again, I take exception to that.

I have made a big effort to contribute constructively to this discussion without resorting to insult or accusation. I have taken time to explain exactly what I believe, and I have suggested ways forward which have been agreed with by other surfers.

I have not resorted to unsupported accusations as you have against me.

Can you please take the time to show me where I have been "defensive" or posted in a way that could be seen as "negatively toned"?

Thanks in advance,
G23

Bob the Builder

vegaluca wrote: »

I am lurking this purely to keep abreast of the goings on and don't want to be drawn into it because lots of phone calls and PM's have been made all day (29th) today to see if we can straighten this out.
But one thing has to be cleared up and that is that fuzzielogic has not been threatened he said so on an earlier post.
A picture of fuzzie had been posted with his personal details and used in the context that I (vegaluca) was outed (my name) by a derogatory slam by cpho1 and a mod had no problem with my name being slammed on the site. I joined yer site yesterday to get my name off what was a direct slam against me or The Kerry Surf Club I'm not sure which TBH.
Anyway, the perpetrator who posted the pic and details realized he did wrong and as he said to me he tried to take it down within thirty seconds or so but it was too late, world war 3 had kicked off. For the record the perpetrator doesn't come from Kerry.
Guys I'm not going to be drawn into the witch hunt ye got going on here as theirs no reasoning with ye, too many valid points falling on deaf ears.
We ( their's a lot of people behind the scene here not just the KSC trying to straighten this out) will continue to try and sort this out but it will be done in a civil manner.
Sincerely,
Paudie Kenny.

Hi Paudie,

It's good to see your position on this, and you communicating it in a civil manner. The admins want to see this been dealt with in a positive manner, but they want to see it dealt with.

After all, all the decent users on this site will co-operate fully with what the admins say, and the admins will deal with it in a reasonable way. Therefore when you say there's no reasoning with the users of the wider boards community, that would be quite a premature presumption. Whether you get constructive answers here or not, users like RB might seem to be fighting the power, but will happily co-operate with the decisions that the admins (Vex,Dev) take on this. DeV just went offline a few mins ago.

As I said in a previous post, the reputation of Surfers has been damaged, by the dirty hands of a minority few. It is in the Surfing Communities' best interests to ensure that the people who caused this are dealt with. I'm speaking from a neutral view when I say that.

DeVore

Sorry Vegaluca, I have been more then reasonable I think and am not engaged in a witchhunt of any kind. You say you want to open a dialogue, for points not to fall on deaf ears and I am perfectly intent on listening to you (plural) and giving you what advice I can on the intersection of your hobby/lifestyle and the internet, based on my experience of similar activities and my knowledge of how the internet tends to "work".

I have repeatedly separated the surfers into two camps of "those who posted threats" and "those who are trying to deal with a problem". If you want to involve yourself in this discussion I'm genuinely happy to hear it, but dont come here and fire off a post and then say "right, you guys dont listen, I'm off".

And just for the record, suppose you and your mates were getting ready to go surfing and someone came along and physically threatened one of you. Do you think it would even take 30 seconds before "world war 3" broke out? How do you think you guys would react? Is it surprising that we have reacted similarly? In fact the response has been quite muted imho.

DeV.

Gandalf23

DeVore wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that we not publish what information our collective race has gathered about these surf locations? That seems wrong to me...

DeV.

I think that argument is over at this point tbh. The map is there and cant now be "unpublished".

The main point at this stage is what to do with the data held by rb and boston. Would you agree that it's best handed over to the ISA at this point?

Who really thinks the 2 lads have the interest, skill or knowledge to maintain the map going forward? This is not any personal insult to the lads, but they are primirarly interested in defending the boards community and not surfer welfare and safety.

2 stroke

I wonder if any of those objecting to publishing info on surfing spots have comercial interests in protecting this info. Most of my surfing has been in warmer waters, and I have been dependent on local entrepreneurs for info on where to surf. I've generally found that quality of info recieved was based more on how much money I was spending, than how experienced I was. I don't know if this hapens here as I've only surfed 2 spots here and they are well known.

javaboy

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I think that argument is over at this point tbh. The map is there and cant now be "unpublished".

The main point at this stage is what to do with the data held by rb and boston. Would you agree that it's best handed over to the ISA at this point?

Who really thinks the 2 lads have the interest, skill or knowledge to maintain the map going forward? This is not any personal insult to the lads, but they are primirarly interested in defending the boards community and not surfer welfare and safety.

While I do question Rb's motives for getting so involved with the map in the first place, in fairness since then he's been very open about how it would be maintained. An earlier post of his basically gave the impression that all he would be doing was copying and pasting advice from surfers into the map. He's going to act as a moderator/keeper of the map. The contributers will be the surfers. He's just there to protect the map from being sabotaged/vandalised/deleted.

I wouldn't say the info should be handed over to the ISA as they will almost certainly take the stance that the spots are secret and should be kept that way. They are welcome to make a copy of the info on the Google map though. They could even make a better version with more spots and better saftey info and ratings. Then Boston and Rb wouldn't have to be involved at all. That sounds like something a decent responsible sport association would do.

Steve

nevf wrote: »

Yes, but then you advise people of it's dangers. You dont get pissed with the mod, start making personal threats at someone trying to carry out their job, and then change your story/reasoning three or four times.

Of course the sea is dangerous, but if people go there looking for adventure, etc. they should have a bit of cop on to know danger when they see it.

I agree, there is no excuse for the shite that went on there. I am just concerned that inexperienced people will see a map with 'sekrit' surfing spots that may only be suitable for experienced surfers.

As I said, the sea does not discriminate, I know that from experience and have a brass plate on my mams mantlepiece that says "To (stevec's dad) for his courage and bravery on the yacht 'lone star', lost in the Irish sea 19seventysomething, sorry I'm not going there /sniff, wipes eye.

Gandalf23 wrote: »

+1
Bullseye.

G23, I've always disagreed with your point of view till this thread. Thank you.

DeVore

I see G23 is bailing without answering my points. :^/


I have a short questionaire for the surfers. A mini survey shall we say.

1. Will posting a completed map with ratings and advice INCREASE or DECREASE the number of surfers in total in the country? (ie: the total surfing community).

A. Increase.
B. Decrease.
C. Neither, it will remain the same.

2. If some spots are kept for an elite few (for whatever reason, tradition, "safety", whatever) what does that do to the "pressure" on the public spots.

A. It is relatively HIGHER then it would be if everyone shared.
B. It is relatively LOWER then it would be if everyone shared.
C. It would be the same.


I have other questions but those are really the crux of the issue.

DeV.
ps: its almost backup time, I've been at this for 2 hours so I'm going to take this up again in the morning (most likely )

Steve

DeVore wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that we not publish what information our collective race has gathered about these surf locations? That seems wrong to me...

DeV.

Malahide? I probably served you pints in gibbos's back in the day then.:D

I've no problem with publishing surf spots, as you said, the interweb is what it is and cannot be stopped. I was just giving my humble opinion.

leninbenjamin

stevec wrote: »

I am just concerned that inexperienced people will see a map with 'sekrit' surfing spots that may only be suitable for experienced surfers.

and frankly your stance is is one that would cultivate those feelings of curiosity among the inexperienced. it doesn't matter where they receive the information, be it a map like Rb's, or an overheard snippet of experienced surfers conversations on a beach. what matters is the quality of the info. and frankly a well maintained and published map is one far more likely to adequately express the potential hazards of each site. this is the truth of it.

I'm not a surfer, but i know a few dangerous places where the hazards can only be properly evaluated when in the water. locals know this and accordingly keep clear, but plenty of travelling tourists do not, and plenty of amateur surfers and body boarders take to the water regardless as they just happen upon this nice scenic spot. is it not better to least give them the opportunity to access this information somewhere?

Rb

stevec wrote: »

I agree, there is no excuse for the shite that went on there. I am just concerned that inexperienced people will see a map with 'sekrit' surfing spots that may only be suitable for experienced surfers.

Ah, but as I've said earlier in the thread, which do you think would be better:

A: All the infomation about every spot known is published, along with a safety rating, suited level, advise, description etc for all to see and read pre-surfing and can make a now educated decision on where to go to enjoy their sport/hobby

Or

B: The spots are kept secret, some newer surfers decide to take a road trip and stumble upon a spot known by locals to be dangerous but looks like it has good waves. The surfers haven't this info, go for a surf in what turns out to be way harder waves/conditions than their skilled for and one/more of then cripples themselves?

If the ISA want to make a copy of the map, cool, by all means go ahead.
However, if the ISA is anything like the surfers we've met so far, then I would guess they'd be most interested in getting rid of it as quickly as they could, so their own little spots would never be known by "newbies" or whatever (until it's too late...?)

As I said before, I'm more than happy to moderate the map alongside Boston. I use the internet a shíte load and am happy to review descriptions and put them up, or help establish a safety rating system/labelling system for the map/spots.

I've spoken to Enygma privately now about this. He raised the issues of overcrowding and safety with me too. I've said what I can about safety (i.e the more information published, the safer the surfer) but his concern with overcrowding was that people drop in on eachother, people litter, people damage the natural landscape/environment by parking wherever they feel like etc and he seems to feel that this will only increase with the publication of a map.

This, to me, seems like it's more of a problem with the actual surfers themselves, than the availability of the information.
If these things are a concern and are happening to spots, then maybe it's time for the ISA and older generation of surfers to, instead of hiding spots/trying to bully people away from them, to educate and promote their members/fellow surfers in ettiquette, responsibility, respect for the land, sea and their surroundings, respect for the locals property etc.

Instead of sitting there going "Omgz, those people with the map caused all these people to park/litter on the beach, look at the mess it's created", think "Omg, people in our community are so f*cking selfish that they're happy to destroy the beach as long as they get to enjoy themselves".

Or instead of thinking "F*ck those internet bastards, look at all these people dropping in on eachother", they should take the view of "How the f*ck have we let people think it's ok to drop in on eachother/not respect eachother/not give eachother a fair go/be so selfish".

Preventing the spread of information is plain wrong (and could certainly be nothing short of dangerous) and I would guess that it's much better that people help out in creating a comprehensive map, than some company creating their own and selling it in bookstores to tourists and them making a tidy profit off it.

If newer surfers are causing problems, littering, parking in bad areas etc. then bring the problem up with them, educate them, teach them ethics etc. Don't stand by and try to blame someone else for it, as "established surfers" you should be able to go "Dude, wtf are you doing parking here, get your car out of that womans front garden" or "Dude, pick up after yourself you worthless piece of shít", it's up to the established community to educate those entering it and parttaking in the activity to pass on good ethics/morals, rather than sitting back and watching them f*ck up everything, f*ck up themselves by surfing spots that they shouldn't be etc.

Whoa I spent a long time writing that.

Oh and DeV, I wonder where the poker community (and yourself )would be today if those who played it before took such an attitude as the "elite surfers" we've witnessed here.

randylonghorn

Rb wrote: »

Whoa I spent a long time writing that.

It was worth it.

Most sense I've seen you write in a long time!!

DeVore

I've spoken to Enygma privately now about this. He raised the issues of overcrowding and safety with me too. I've said what I can about safety (i.e the more information published, the safer the surfer) but his concern with overcrowding was that people drop in on eachother, people litter, people damage the natural landscape/environment by parking wherever they feel like etc and he seems to feel that this will only increase with the publication of a map.

I cant imagine why the publication of a map would cause an INCREASE in overcrowding IN TOTAL.

DeV.