Surfing Maps Stay - No further discussion on this

Tom Thumb1000

Tom Thumb1000 wrote: »

So how could surfers have changed the boards.ie policy that has been running for the last year

You've been running a **** you policy of we know best which runs agains't every other surfing forum under the sun.

You know post every break known to man, without a care that most breaks haven't the facilities for crowds or learners.

Think of the kids on this site who will look at a map and think that theres great surf there, only the break is remote and not clearly visible and suffers rips. Now you have a situation, with no life guards or crowds or people, there is no body to check to see if the can get in safely.

The policies of not revealing breaks is generally for safety.

NOT EVERY BEACH BREAK HAVE LIFE GUARDS OR ARE POPULAR :eek:

Sending people out to these spots is just asking for trouble.

If you don't believe the ISA, try asking lifeguards or the RNLI for there opinion of revealing breaks that don't have the safety facilities for learners or crowds.

I for one spend loads of time dealing with learner bodyboarders who head into the water without fins, easy mistake its nearly impossible for them to get back in.

As I have said

THOSE RULES ON SECRET SPOTS ARE THERE FOR A REASON

Hi. I'm a token new surfer. Say I'm just getting into the sport and I'm looking to find new areas to practice, and I happen to come upon one location which is kept under wraps. Something goes wrong - waves are rougher than I anticipated.

Now, say I'm told about this location before hand, and warned that it would be unsuitable. If it's kept secret from other surfers, the suitability of it to various groups is kept secret too. Since I'm warned, and since the surfing community are being just swell about this type of thing, nothing goes wrong because I'm either prepared or because I realise that this area would be beyond me at present.

I've no doubt that I'm simplifying things greatly, but can you see how discussions of surfing areas can not only help new people but can protect them from injury in the early stages of the sport?

Boston

Also safety doesn't seem to be the sole criteria or even a required one for marking a spot as secret. There appears to be several spots listed which are suitable for beginner to experienced.

Time Magazine

I've updated my sig.

giddyup

There was another thread on here yesterday where I posted my own bias-free views on this fiasco. In summary I supported the idea of keeping genuine secret spots under wraps. I could not be arsed trying to re-hash what I said but to me it made lots of sense:) Not sure what happened subsequently or where that thread went.

The stuff I'm seeing on this thread today - a sad day for me on boards. It's turning me off it big-time. Whatever some surf folks did - deal with it in the appropriate way - ideally that would be reasonable people actioning it in a mature business-like way. All the other nonsense I'm seeing is just as bad as anything the surfing ponces did.

Someone was suggesting sending the map to the ISA. The ISA endorse the same policy you are all railing against. Well done to that person.

A confederacy of dunces if ever I fukcing saw it.

Rb

FuzzyLogic wrote: »

To clarify: No threats were made.
And also the above poster is clearly a loon.

Suggest that this thread either be locked or deleted. Its over and done with now, put this thing to bed, and have that new map thread that someone has started here (boston?) just deleted or closed. Theres some bad advice/safety issues WRT it.

Back to the status quo of no agression, lets just delete the bloody threads, including this one which is full of useless slander about various parties and people.

Whoa they really got to you, didn't they?

Hobbes

Tom Thumb1000 wrote: »

THOSE RULES ON SECRET SPOTS ARE THERE FOR A REASON

Hilarious. The reason it is hilarious is that some people don't learn. This subject isn't new. I commend the ruling of leaving the thread up. I mean it is not like people were not warned what would happen if you did anything against mods/admins.

If it was a matter of safety it is very easy for the expert surfers to write comments like for experienced only or other comments. So that claim is a bit stupid TBH. If they are finding the locations here, they may as well find out the details as well.

Incidently. Words of wisdom written last year.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53893586&postcount=182

I recommend the surfers complaining read up on the Streisand effect.

pvt.joker

FuzzyLogic wrote: »

To clarify: No threats were made.
And also the above poster is clearly a loon.

Suggest that this thread either be locked or deleted. Its over and done with now, put this thing to bed, and have that new map thread that someone has started here (boston?) just deleted or closed. Theres some bad advice/safety issues WRT it.

Back to the status quo of no agression, lets just delete the bloody threads, including this one which is full of useless slander about various parties and people.

why should we back down to these bullies?

The maps stay

DeVore

Well now, this is funny (in a variety of ways).

Firstly, I only logged in at 4pm and have been having a bit of a ding dong with some surfers in PM. So I tried to explain my previous stance of "look, its the internet, its what it does, times have changed and you need to accept that".... with two quite reasonable surfers. Then I looked at the surfer forum and discovered the threats. So I very bluntly replied again (quite angry I must admit) telling them that I am one step away from making a big list of surf spots and sticking it on a permanent site wide announcement.

I was going to contact Vex to say "have you heard about this? WTF?!" when I swung past here and discovered that I've been completely missing the elephant in the lift!

Anyway, short answer, Vex said everything I think too. Fnck that, fnck them, I don't react well to threats.

Besides, even if we wanted to (and right now, I certainly dont!), what could we do about RB and Boston? Nothing. Just like you, and indeed everyone we can do nothing about the wider internet. What if someone decides to create secretsurfspots.ie ?? What then? They arent going to listen to you so you either put up with it or threaten them. You gonna threaten everyone on the internet?? Have you heard the story of the boy and the dam? Well this dam has burst and surf boards or no, there is nothing you can do about it.

By the way, you arent the only people with this problem...


Ultimately (dispensing with the "safety" concerns, which can be addressed by even more information dispersal), this is a plea by an established few against the "general public" learning of their spots. Thats simply selfish and unreasonable and smacks of fascism (violence underpinning the whole thing, from threats here to violence in person towards visitors), and of dog-in-a-mangerism.

Unfortunately, we ARE the general public. So asking us to keep your secrets for you, from us is, well, silly really.

The world changed, sorry if you werent paying attention. Might be a good idea to cope.

DeV.

Gandalf23

I absolutely oppose the actions of the bully surfers who threatened people and post personal details on the internet. Shame on you.

However, the map that boston/rb have been working on could be potentially very dangerous and a foolish thing to be messing with.

I do some surfing myself (bred from my love of snowboarding), and its widely accepted practice that surfers protect secret spots and avoid posting directions to secret spots and/or images of said spots that give the location away.

This is not because of any sence of selfishness, but from a desire to keep both the spot and inexperienced surfers safe. People who have the skills will already know where to look for such spots, and will usually have the ability to surf them. Thoese who don't know about them usually dont know about them for good reason (because of inexperience or lack of ability). Anyone who develops the ability to surf these spots will get there eventually with practice.

The last thing anyone wants is learners turning up on dangerous breaks as someone will get hurt. Its coming into summer and more and more people will be looking with interest at this map.

So I plead with everyone here ... this is a potentially very dangerous thing you are doing ... the creation of this map should be given to the experts who know the spots and the dangers involved. I ask that this project be stopped now and the map and all other info be given to the ISA. The last thing we want is someone being hurt (or killed) by this.

That would put things in perspective now wouldn't it...

Tom Thumb1000

You guys forget that surfing is an extreme sport and surfing remote breaks is dangerious:(

This was taken from another forum

http://www.xtreme-photos.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=351&start=0

Last weekend, a very good friend and surfing partner had the worst experience in his surfing life up in North Donegal. He was surfing a secret spot with a friend on Saturday. He's been surfing this spot for many years so most definitely this was not due to lack of experience of the spot in question or his ability to surf it. Let's just say bad timing was a major part in this incident. John jumped into the water, the tide sucked out with him, a big set approached, and when the wee man tried to duck dive he was on dry rock. I'm yet to hear the exact details as he's still in hospital but suffice enough to say that he's broken his pelvis, snapped his leg in two places, shattered his cheek bone and had severe damage all over the rest of his body. The reason why i am highlighting this incident is to make every water user aware of the dangers involved whilst entering the sea. I'm a firm believer in trying to always surf with another person (if John had been surfing this spot alone he would be in surf Heaven for Christmas - scary thought but true) so if any incidents like this occur then at least there is one other person to help you out or call for help. Unfortunately I have to surf alone quite a bit myself so i do understand that there is not always other surfers about or friends available to surf with. I think more than anything this has made me think more along the lines of letting friends or partners know that you are going surfing and what time you would expect to be back at. I know this won't save your life but it may help. This should be a warning to us all, that's 3 good friends of mine this year who have all had pretty heavy experiences in the water. Surf safe everyone, remember there will always be more days ahead and if you feel like you may be putting yourself in danger then think twice and think about this. Tell your mates about this and be careful out there. Get well soon Wee Jan and here's to pulling into a few sick ones with ya in 2008 when your on the mend

ismise69

I'm no surfer, but as far as I know most websites that give details of
places in this kind of format for people to carry out extreme
activities have made themselves ltd companies and/or are insured to
give this advise.

If you publicly give this information out and someone gets injured /
killed at one of these surfing locations you could be held legally
responsible for informing them to go there. Either boards or who ever
is associated with the map.

People have been sued for less

I don't care either way its just an observation

Hobbes

Tom Thumb1000 wrote: »

You guys forget that surfing is an extreme spot and surfing remote breaks is dangerious:(

That is a horrible story. I hope they posted the location public and explained the dangers of the location so that some random surfer guy doesn't find the beach by accident and suffers the same or worse.

If you publicly give this information out and someone gets injured /
killed at one of these surfing locations you could be held legally
responsible for informing them to go there. Either boards or who ever
is associated with the map.

ROFL. I hear you can base jump from the cliffs of Moher and have an extreme thrill. Good luck suing me when someone goes for the darwin award.

What about a surfing group knew of the location and didn't make the dangers public? What would they get?

pvt.joker

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I absolutely oppose the actions of the bully surfers who threatened people and post personal details on the internet. Shame on you.

However, the map that boston/rb have been working on could be potentially very dangerous and a foolish thing to be messing with.

I do some surfing myself (bred from my love of snowboarding), and its widely accepted practice that surfers protect secret spots and avoid posting directions to secret spots and/or images of said spots that give the location away.

This is not because of any sence of selfishness, but from a desire to keep both the spot and inexperienced surfers safe. People who have the skills will already know where to look for such spots, and will usually have the ability to surf them. Thoese who don't know about them usually dont know about them for good reason (because of inexperience or lack of ability). Anyone who develops the ability to surf these spots will get there eventually with practice.

The last thing anyone wants is learners turning up on dangerous breaks as someone will get hurt. Its coming into summer and more and more people will be looking with interest at this map.

So I plead with everyone here ... this is a potentially very dangerous thing you are doing ... the creation of this map should be given to the experts who know the spots and the dangers involved. I ask that this project be stopped now and the map and all other info be given to the ISA. The last thing we want is someone being hurt (or killed) by this.

That would put things in perspective now wouldn't it...

you make some good points BUT .

everyone who argues against the map is ignoring the simple fact that all they have to do is provide information/safety advice about dangerous breaks/locations here and RB or Boston will update the map.

Why are you all ignoring this ?

Again, it is as I and everyone else suspects, not because of safety concern but purely out of selfish interests.

Rb

DeVore wrote: »

Ultimately (dispensing with the "safety" concerns, which can be addressed by even more information dispersal), this is a plea by an established few against the "general public" learning of their spots. Thats simply selfish and unreasonable and smacks of fascism (violence underpinning the whole thing, from threats here to violence in person towards visitors), and of dog-in-a-mangerism.

Indeed. It's also very much anti-community spirit, whilst they're trying to claim that surfers are part of a community.

If they cared so much about saftey concerns, they'd pm me or Boston with a full list of every spot they know of, along with warnings/ratings for the spots that we've already stuck up on the map, rather than sitting there quietly and letting a newer surfer try to find their own spots, stumbling across a well known but little talked about (except for in their elite little groups) and f*cking themselves up due to noone telling them about a bad rip there.

With there having been such a rise in interest in the sport over the past few years, you'd think those who were already doing it would be keen to protect the newer surfers from harming themselves, rather than trying to cover up things for their own benefit.

DeVore

And we will improve this situation by:

A. Ensuring people have accurate information about a spot.
or
B. Keeping all that information secret.


Anyway, its pretty clear that local surfers want to keep the location of their surf spots secret to stop "outsiders" from using them and forcing them to "share". If you are so concerned about safety, then help the lads be more accurate with the ratings.

Gandalf23, when you started snowboarding did they give you a piste map with the green, blue, red, black and multiple-diamond pistes clearly marked and listed on it? Did you head straight for the double black diamond or did you go to the green area??

DeV.

Rb

Tom Thumb1000 wrote: »

You guys forget that surfing is an extreme sport and surfing remote breaks is dangerious:(

Then, as I said, those who know of such spots should be keen to make the information public wherever possible to ensure others don't go and hurt themselves.

Yet they don't, and they've quite clearly stated that they're actually against it.

You can all keep harping on about the dangers of it, making information more public and educating those who are interested will prevent accidents, not keeping your mouths shut until it's too late. But then, we all know that's just an excuse, don't we?

challengemaster

ismise69 wrote: »

I'm no surfer, but as far as I know most websites that give details of
places in this kind of format for people to carry out extreme
activities have made themselves ltd companies and/or are insured to
give this advise.

If you publicly give this information out and someone gets injured /
killed at one of these surfing locations you could be held legally
responsible for informing them to go there. Either boards or who ever
is associated with the map.

People have been sued for less

I don't care either way its just an observation

I don't see how. If the information is there, that's all well and good. But it's not as if the boards.ie admin team dragged a surfer out to x spot and threw them in..

Information is freely available, and will continue to be so. What people do with that information is of their own decision, and thus boards.ie cannot be held responsible. Logical, no?

Boston

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I absolutely oppose the actions of the bully surfers who threatened people and post personal details on the internet. Shame on you.

However, the map that boston/rb have been working on could be potentially very dangerous and a foolish thing to be messing with.

I do some surfing myself (bred from my love of snowboarding), and its widely accepted practice that surfers protect secret spots and avoid posting directions to secret spots and/or images of said spots that give the location away.

This is not because of any sence of selfishness, but from a desire to keep both the spot and inexperienced surfers safe. People who have the skills will already know where to look for such spots, and will usually have the ability to surf them. Thoese who don't know about them usually dont know about them for good reason (because of inexperience or lack of ability). Anyone who develops the ability to surf these spots will get there eventually with practice.

The last thing anyone wants is learners turning up on dangerous breaks as someone will get hurt. Its coming into summer and more and more people will be looking with interest at this map.

So I plead with everyone here ... this is a potentially very dangerous thing you are doing ... the creation of this map should be given to the experts who know the spots and the dangers involved. I ask that this project be stopped now and the map and all other info be given to the ISA. The last thing we want is someone being hurt (or killed) by this.

That would put things in perspective now wouldn't it...

I can read a map ergo I can surf? You assume only experts will find spots which require expert skills. While its probably true that you would most likely have achieved a certain level of skill before you go off the beaten track and start searching for surf spots, its certainly not true that only those with experience will find them.

If you can keep something absolutely secret then maybe keeping ita secret is a valid approach, but these spots are known and are published on the internet already. Once a site becomes known, the only way to ensure safety is to inform people of the dangers. If I want to find out if my local surf spot is safe, who do i contact and where do I go to get this information, assuming I stumbled upon it?

ismise69 wrote: »

I'm no surfer...

You're no solicitor either.

giddyup

DeVore wrote: »

Unfortunately, we ARE the general public. So asking us to keep your secrets for you, from us is, well, silly really.

Hopefuly my own last word on this as I don't really give a toss about surfing - but my observation is this:

There is a generally accepted convention that you could choose to respect but you choose not to respect it. All the other stuff should be irrelevant. Boards is boards but you have a raft of micro-communities on here and many of these are subsets of wider communities unrelated to boards. If you don't give some weight to some of the baggage that is inherited from these external communities I think that reduces the extent to which boards is a great place to come and talk about...whatever it is you want to talk about or to form these micro-communities (ok - I won't use community or any variation of it again).

Many people have already made the point that in plenty of other forums you have analogous conventions. I think in this case people are out to make a point which is fair enough but I hoped we were all a little more egalitarian than that.

pvt.joker

These surfers can talk shíte all day about why it is important to keep the spots secret.
But they are ignoring requests to provide safety ratings for each spot.

And until they do this they have absolutely no grounds for argument.

Boston

What about this

"Surfing is an extreme sport and as such is inherently dangerous. Caution should always be applied. Surfing on remote reefs may cause serious injury or even death."

I can add that or something similar to each point

DeVore

Giddyup, that line of discussion was closed by the people who decided that since they werent getting their way they would threaten us.


They chose this path, go blame them or do you expect us to capitulate to that sort of thing? Bigger and badder have tried. Too bad, because as much as i think you were fncked when they developed HTTP, I wouldnt have been opposed to the community setting the rules (even if I thought they were shortsighted).

I can tell you now, that thats not going to happen, not now. No way.

I also hate to point this out but I DID warn you about the consequences.

DeV.

Ste05

I know nothing about surfing, but from reading the various threads and posts from surfers, there is quite simply no logical reason for protecting any "secret" spot.

If they just want to keep what they consider "their's" to themselves, well F them, and if there are dangerous spots, these need to actually be highlighted even more and certainly not kept "secret".

peasant

As a non-surfer I don't get the whole "secret spot" thingy anyway ...in case nobody had noticed ...this is an island ...surrounded by water ...with waves on it.

What is to keep the intrepid surfer from throwing themselves into said waves at any point of our long coastline that takes their fancy?

How can a spot be "secret"? It's there for everybody to find. There are maps out there already, showing the coastline in great detail. Throw in a little knowledge about weather and wave patterns and anyone will soon be able to figure out which spot could be potentially surfable under what conditions and which road to take to get to it.

So ..from me its "meh" to the whole affair

Talliesin

I think the safety issue is a very good point.

Since everyone knows that surfers are never, ever to be found driving anywhere near the coast, the only way a beginner could ever try a break they can't handle is because a map on the Internet told them too.

I say we stop this proliferation of surfing information immediately. At this rate there'll be white people surfing and everything. They'll even be surfing in Ireland the way things are going.

lightening

Well, to the surfers who came on demanding that things be removed, cursing at people, threatening, posting up peoples names and addresses... This is purely your fault. If you had just left it alone like I said ages ago, there wouldn't be a sticky map with locations managed by people who know nothing about surfing.

Just like the last time when I mentioned a bay in Kerry it backfired. Someone called longbordire revived an ancient thread where it was mentioned making demands and it backfired.

You have made surfers in Ireland look like a pack of w4nkers. If you had kept your cool, if you had not rang your mates to log on and make demands the thread would have just petered out.

Thanks.

pvt.joker

lightening wrote: »

You have made surfers in Ireland look like a pack of w4nkers.

Truer words were never spoke.
I know nothing about surfing, but I along with thousands of others will probably have an involutary prejudice against them as " a pack of elitist arrogant cúnts" from now .

Which is a pity, as Im sure there are plenty of decent people in your community.

Dinner

Talliesin wrote: »

I say we stop this proliferation of surfing information immediately.

Couldn't agree more, wikipedia even have pictures of surfboards on their surfboard article, and pictures of people surfing on the surfing article! What sort of message is that sending out!

More's the point, wikipedia even have a list of all the towns of Irelands. My town is on that! What are they doing, I don't want more outsiders discovering my sekrit town. There's ramps here too, somebody could hurt themselves.

Down with Wikipedia, down with sharing!

BlitzKrieg

ok

slightly confused here


the general consensus from the surfer's against the map is that its

A) for safety

its the code for all surfers


then explain this please:

http://www.surfing-waves.com/

They have a map

they have a rating system

they put up surfing spots across the world and put up risk warnings, advice, descriptions and even photos.

Now here's a shovel, you want to start digging?

DeVore

Ok Lightening, thats a fine post and one I'll respond to in kind.

Here I am going to put forward a way forward for surfers and surfing in Ireland. You guys might not like it, but you will like it more then the alternatives!

Firstly, lets not kid ourselves, people who have invested in surfing gear arent going to be turned off by the lack of spots to surf. They are going to surf regardless. Hopefully they are smart and get lessons etc. But they are going to do it anyway.

So, you dont want your spots clogged with new surfers out of their depths. Ok...

Consider how snowboarders do it... we give away free maps with all the runs/pistes colour coded for difficulty to everyone, newbies and pros alike. We have the same problems you do, not enough snow/piste to go around but we had the good luck to have seen how skiers managed their growth.

My recommendations are:

1. Embrace and take charge of the inevitable change. The internet isnt going away you know and if you dont, then people like RB/Boston will. As it is you've launched yourself so badly the wrong way, I dont know if you could ever regain people's trust but thats not my problem.
So, you need to be at the front of this change to your sport, not reacting to it (negatively!).

2. Colour code spots and breaks so its easy to find spots that match a surfer's skill level.
You arent going to increase the number of new surfers this way, they are going to surf regardless, but what you DO achieve is that the high skill surfers will not be bothered by the newbie surfers in spots where they shouldnt be.
There is nothing more annoying to a snowboarder then to be carving down a black slope then to smack into a muppet who should be on green. But we have an excuse to be annoyed with them, you dont.

3. This achieves your desired end to an extent. You cant (and shouldnt be allowed to) keep a natural resource to yourselves, no more then skiiers should be allowed to say "this is our mountain" but you can ensure that people go to a break that is comeasureate with their skill level.

4. Snowboarders dont have the problem you have because we channelled the right people into the right places. So, if I'm trekking out on a ridge or on a black run, I can be fairly sure that the guys who are trekking out too arent muppets and if they are I give them a map and helpful guidance as to where they should start etc.

If you take this approach you will at least guide the explosion of information rather then having it blow up in your face.

This is probably pearls before swine to be honest and I'm addressing this to the surfers who HAVENT been dicks. The others can kiss my ass.

DeV.