Surfing Maps Stay - No further discussion on this

Gandalf23

Ganteng wrote: »

My point is that not naming secret spots is accepted throughout the world by surfing communities. Pretty much every surfer agrees with it and accepts it, and they are the people who should know.

To all the non-surfers out there ... this is true and we have to accept established wisdom here.

To do otherwise is very foolish and putting inexperienced surfers at great risk.

Gandalf23

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Let me ask you a something rb ... do you trully believe you have the right motivations here? Are you on this crusade to really make surfing more accessible/safer, or is it as a direct result of the threats to fuzzy? Its very noble of you to attempt to defend a fellow mod, and I can see why you believe you are acting in the best interests of boards.ie ... honestly I can and I admire you for that.

Two admins have already given a view and it's their view that stands.

At this stage I'm awaiting RC to charge in with an accusation of an emotional red herring because thats what this attempt at using "safety" as a reason for secrecy is.
Safety should be an upfront and transparent resource and the best way to do that in this case is publish all the information.
This is (boards.ie)after all a community and thats what this community ultimately does,it protects and serves the interests of the community.

Toto Wolfcastle

Rb wrote: »

Which is exactly why as much information as possible about our coastlines/surfing spots/diving spots/etc should be published. Quite horrifying to see some members of the supposed surfing community so against it though. I guess that's what greed and selfishness does to people though, they're only looking out for themselves at the end of the day, who cares about the rest of the community or other surfers safety once they're happy, right?:rolleyes:

Exactly, and I hope that at least one person realises how important it is that people have the correct information and help you with the map.

Gandalf23 wrote: »

But please ask yourself, do you really know enough about surfing to make a reliable (and safe) judgement call on this? There have been a number of experienced surfers who have contributed to this thread who have said this is the wrong thing to do. Are you really so arrogant that you're prepared to ignore them?

If these experienced surfers really cared about the sport and about their fellow surfers then they would be happy to help spread the information about potentially dangerous spots. The likelihood is that beginners will look to the internet for information initially and a map such as the one created by Rb and Boston (but initially created by a surfer if I'm correct) would be invaluable.

davefw1

Rb wrote: »

Weren't you banned yesterday?

You do know what happens to people who re-register, right?

Edit: From the banlist

29-05-2008, 11:46 davefw NEVER surfer scum not welcome on this site

What do you not get about that? F*ck off and don't come back this time.

I'm just trying to be civil. Can you just answer the question

how does your map help when you have a spot like a pointbreak with a small take-off zone say 20 - 30 ft wide with sets coming through every 2 - 5 minutes. You now have a large number of surfers competing for insufficient waves pushing each other farther and farther up the point closer and closer to the rocks. Inevitably injuries happen and agro starts at overcrowded spots due to misguided arrogant attempts like your map. I've seen numerous formerly quiet spots destroyed by overcrowding due to publications like your map.

Needless to say you haven't a notion about what I'm talking which is exactly why you should not be publishing this map.

Earthhorse

Ganteng wrote: »

My point is that not naming secret spots is accepted throughout the world by surfing communities. Pretty much every surfer agrees with it and accepts it, and they are the people who should know.

I appreciate your attempt to explain things but I'm still not seeing what is unique about surfing that they have to maintain this practise.

In every other dangerous sport, including ones such as snow boarding and mountain climbing where conditions have to be taken into account, they seem to have a policy of grading slopes and areas, encouraging people of the right experience to tackle the right climbs and so forth.

Why is surfing so different?

Hobart

davefw1 wrote: »

So how does your map help when you have a spot like a pointbreak with a small take-off zone say 20 - 30 ft wide with sets coming through every 2 - 5 minutes. You now have a large number of surfers competing for insufficient waves pushing each other farther and farther up the point closer and closer to the rocks. Inevitably injuries happen and agro starts at overcrowded spots due to misguided arrogant attempts like your map. I've seen numerous formerly quiet spots destroyed by overcrowding due to publications like your map.

Needless to say you haven't a notion about what I'm talking which is exactly why you should not be publishing this map.

It's actually you who hasn't a clue. It's not up to this site to tell you or others how to police your sport. It's not up to this site to stop you guys/gals "competeing for insufficent waves". It's not up to this site to prevent "agro" between yourselves. This site exists to facilitate discussion. If that facilitation is not good enough for you, get your hair cut, get a proper job, and get lost.

Rb

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Let me ask you a something rb ... do you trully believe you have the right motivations here? Are you on this crusade to really make surfing more accessible/safer, or is it as a direct result of the threats to fuzzy?

Both. I think their attitude is nothing short of disgusting, both towards their fellow surfers and the members on this site.

Gandalf23 wrote:

But please ask yourself, do you really know enough about surfing to make a reliable (and safe) judgement call on this?

I know what damage keeping the information secret could do should a newer surfer find a dangerous spot that could have been listed publicly but was kept private so the locals could prevent others from using it.

Devs suggestion was great, help out, rate it and then those looking at it will have a good idea of where they can go to surf safely. A rating system like a snowboard slope would be perfect.

Gandalf23 wrote:

There have been a number of experienced surfers who have contributed to this thread who have said this is the wrong thing to do. Are you really so arrogant that you're prepared to ignore them?

There's also quite a number of "experienced surfers" who've came on here, acted extremely immaturely, ignorantly and have shown themselves to be nothing short of selfish elitist little prícks. As someone said previously, those who keep citing Safety as a reason to take it down yet won't contribute towards creating a decent, comprehensive guide to it are nothing short of self-ish and are trying to push their own interests (i.e protecting their local spots and keeping it themselves).

There was a story posted previously about a guy in Donegal who surfed a secret spot and put himself in hospital. I would sincerely hope that this spot has been made public and people have been made aware of the dangers of it, following the incident, anything short will suffice as proof that there's a bunch of selfish f*ckers sitting back and trying to control the sport in this country.

Gandalf23 wrote:

I'd also ask how much effort you're prepared to put into this map. To maintain the map to a standard where the information is relaible, safe and up to date will be a huge job. Are you really prepared to put the required time and effort into this? Lets face it, if you're not prepared to devote significant time and effort to this, the end result will be an incomplete and unsafe map. You're about to take on a lifetimes work that many many people will be depending on.

Editing the map is extremely easy. If people would be so kind as to pm me information for it, then I'd have a load more done as of now. Unfortunately, noone has.

It's no bother to me tbh, I spend a lot of time on the computer, updating a map by copying/pasting info into the fields won't take much effort at all. The only hard thing about it would be getting the infomation off the tight-lipped locals who want to keep a part of the coastline for themselves, like they've some God given right to it.

Other than that, I think it's fair to say that myself and Boston are happy to maintain it and update it once the information is provided or published.

Gandalf23 wrote:

I appeal to your better judgement here for the last time ... please turn the map and all other info over to the ISA. You and boston have made your point and won!! A stunning victory!!! Now please do the right thing. Please.

Please dont let past interactions between us cloud your judgement in this ... and it's not only me asking you to do this.

Do the right thing man. Do the right thing.

Eh, no. If the ISA should be focusing on anything right now, it's the behaviour of their members and the image they're giving the surfing community on public discussion forums.

davefw1

Hobart wrote: »

It's actually you who hasn't a clue. It's not up to this site to tell you or others how to police your sport. It's not up to this site to stop you guys/gals "competeing for insufficent waves". It's not up to this site to prevent "agro" between yourselves. This site exists to facilitate discussion. If that facilitation is not good enough for you, get your hair cut, get a proper job, and get lost.

I'm trying to have a discussion but when I ask a simple question from a guy who has just ordained himself grand poobah of Irish surf spots I get abuse and then I get banned. This is not facilitating discussion.

javaboy

This pretty much sums up the logic of the secret spot argument for me: When I have kids I'm not going to tell them anything about drugs because drugs can be dangerous if you don't know what you're at.


@Gandalf you said "This is a misguided, misinformed, and potentially dangerous project."

It's going ahead anyway as the Gods admins have been awoken from their slumber and angered. The best thing to do is to guide it, inform it and make it safe. You seem to be one of the more level headed surfers here so maybe you should just make the best of a bad situation and help make the map safe. Realistically the map can't be censored at this stage as I'm sure so many people have made copies.

@Rb I don't know if you have the commitment to see give the map the attention it deserves but I'm sure it will evolve into a useful resource managed by actual dedicated surfers who are intent on making the sport safer. For safety purposes maybe you should mark all the spots as "Safety - Unknown, possibly dangerous" until you hear otherwise from at least 2 surfers.

Enygma

Is it up to this site to tell surfers what is good for their sport? Like publishing a map of spots? Whether you agree with it or not, it's not really your place.

With all due respect :P

Rb

davefw1 wrote: »

I'm just trying to be civil. Can you just answer the question

You're not wanted on this website. You've proven yourself to be unable to be civil, along with the rest of your crew. I don't entertain unfunny, trouble making re-registrations, nobody on this website does.

Dinner

davefw1 wrote: »

I'm just trying to be civil. Can you just answer the question

The map exists. That's a fact.
The map is not going away. That is also a fact.

So, you and the rest of the surfing community are left with a decision.

1) Help out with the map, give advice, recommendations and rate the level of difficulty/experience needed.

2) Don't help out with the map and allow potentially inexperienced surfers go to places that you know is too difficult for them and possibly hurt themselves.

Regardless of your opinion on the map, those are the choices left.
Which will it be?

davefw1

Rb wrote: »

You're not wanted on this website. You've proven yourself to be unable to be civil, along with the rest of your crew. I don't entertain unfunny, trouble making re-registrations, nobody on this website does.

You're still not answering my question and I've never been uncivil to you

Rb

janeybabe wrote: »

Exactly, and I hope that at least one person realises how important it is that people have the correct information and help you with the map.

So far, only two have shown themselves to be willing to help. Both are established members of the Boards community with level heads, so no surprise there. The rest...well, they haven't been particularly friendly

janeybabe wrote:

If these experienced surfers really cared about the sport and about their fellow surfers then they would be happy to help spread the information about potentially dangerous spots. The likelihood is that beginners will look to the internet for information initially and a map such as the one created by Rb and Boston (but initially created by a surfer if I'm correct) would be invaluable.

Yep, you're correct. The map was originally created, along with all comments on it thus far, by a very experienced surfer who was trying to do a nice thing. He was found to be harrassed and threatened into taking it down, seeing as some of them already knew him.

Luckily, myself nor Boston won't be so easy to bully into taking it down.

Earthhorse

Enygma wrote: »

Is it up to this site to tell surfers what is good for their sport? Like publishing a map of spots? Whether you agree with it or not, it's not really your place.

With all due respect :P

Is it up to surfers to tell members of this site what they can and can't discuss? Like publishing a map of spots? Whether you agree with it or not, it's not really your place.

With all due respect.

davefw1

@Rb Answer the question. My point is valid

how does your map help when you have a spot like a pointbreak with a small take-off zone say 20 - 30 ft wide with sets coming through every 2 - 5 minutes. You now have a large number of surfers competing for insufficient waves pushing each other farther and farther up the point closer and closer to the rocks. Inevitably injuries happen and agro starts at overcrowded spots due to misguided arrogant attempts like your map. I've seen numerous formerly quiet spots destroyed by overcrowding due to publications like your map.

Needless to say you haven't a notion about what I'm talking which is exactly why you should not be publishing this map.

Enygma

When it affects the world outside of boards.ie then yes I think it is appropriate for surfers to ask that boards.ie respect their wishes. As far as I know ye do the same for other forums on boards.ie

I don't think it's appropriate to intimidate people however.

Dinner

davefw1 wrote: »

@Rb Answer the question. My point is valid

Surely the good people like yourself, who cite safety as a primary reason to remove the map, would be delighted to help out and provide info like this so that and inexperinced surfer sees it and decides to go somewhere else.

Gandalf23

Rb wrote: »

Devs suggestion was great, help out, rate it and then those looking at it will have a good idea of where they can go to surf safely. A rating system like a snowboard slope would be perfect.

If this is true why has something similar not been implemented worldwide? Again, I cant grasp your arrogance in ignoring established and worldwide accepted surfer wisdom and practice.

Rb wrote: »

There's also quite a number of "experienced surfers" who've came on here, acted extremely immaturely, ignorantly and have shown themselves to be nothing short of selfish elitist little prícks. As someone said previously, those who keep citing Safety as a reason to take it down yet won't contribute towards creating a decent, comprehensive guide to it are nothing short of self-ish and are trying to push their own interests (i.e protecting their local spots and keeping it themselves).

Thats not a valid excuse to dismiss the surfers who have spoken from the heart and with respect on this thread.

Rb wrote: »

Editing the map is extremely easy. If people would be so kind as to pm me information for it, then I'd have a load more done as of now. Unfortunately, noone has.

It's no bother to me tbh, I spend a lot of time on the computer, updating a map by copying/pasting info into the fields won't take much effort at all. The only hard thing about it would be getting the infomation off the tight-lipped locals who want to keep a part of the coastline for themselves, like they've some God given right to it.

Other than that, I think it's fair to say that myself and Boston are happy to maintain it and update it once the information is provided or published.

I hope you mean this. Genuinely I do.

Now that you've made this commitment for all to see, I and many others I'm sure will be watching with interest to see how long your promises last.

TBA rb, I'm still puzzled though as to why you just dont hand all your info over to the ISA? They have a greater knowledge, no conflicts of interest, and surfers will be more willing to talk to them and contribute. You said yourself you haven't received one pm. Seems to me that if you were really interested in surfer safety this is what you would do?!!???!

Anyway, on your conscience be it.

Rb

davefw1 wrote: »

@Rb Answer the question. My point is valid

Sorry, as I said I don't entertain people such as you, David Walsh of the Kerry Surf Club.

Do the admins/smods have to ban you every time, or when will you get the point?

Hobart

davefw1 wrote: »

I'm trying to have a discussion but when I ask a simple question from a guy who has just ordained himself grand poobah of Irish surf spots I get abuse and then I get banned. This is not facilitating discussion.

You have had your chance. You can't come back and say "I trying to blah blah blah...." when you obviously were not.

The decision has been made. Accept it. You're wasting your time.

The discussion was being facilitated. In-fact, the mod of the forum had decided to put up a poll and canvas opinion. It seems that the discussion (or some discussion turned nasty) and hence an admin has made a decision. Admin making decision (uslually) != discussion. Too late.

javaboy

rerereg wrote:

how does your map help when you have a spot like a pointbreak with a small take-off zone say 20 - 30 ft wide with sets coming through every 2 - 5 minutes. You now have a large number of surfers competing for insufficient waves pushing each other farther and farther up the point closer and closer to the rocks. Inevitably injuries happen and agro starts at overcrowded spots due to misguided arrogant attempts like your map. I've numerous formerly quiet spots destroyed by overcrowding due to publications like your map.

Needless to say you haven't a notion about what I'm talking which is exactly why you should not be publishing this map

So contribute the safety info to Rb and Boston. The map is not going away.

If there is an issue with a spot only being suitable for x number of people, then that should be on the map. PM Rb with the info.

They were not your quiet spots to be 'destroyed'. Maybe a decent resource with proper information about how many surfers a particular break can handle and what level of expertise it requires would slowly cause things like overcrowding to sort themselves out.

davefw1

Rb wrote: »

Sorry, as I said I don't entertain people such as you, David Walsh of the Kerry Surf Club.

Do the admins/smods have to ban you every time, or when will you get the point?

You mean you don't answer questions you don't understand.

smashey

Well, that was an interesting read. :rolleyes:

What I want to know is why do these pretentious surfer fúckers think they "own" these spots?

BuffyBot

I cant grasp your arrogance in ignoring established and worldwide accepted surfer wisdom and practice.

..and we can't grasp the arrogance of certain people in trying to dicate things to their liking, while using completely spurious reasoning and nasty, underhand methods to try and defend their happy little status quo.

Weird that, isn't it?

Rb

davefw1 wrote: »

You mean you don't answer questions you don't understand.

Didn't even read it tbh, saw your username and thought "Why do I recognise that?", then checked the banlist and hey presto, there you are.

It's not like you were banned for no reason, the admins and smods of this site don't want you here, yet you still come back?

Enygma

Did you get a PM from me Rb? Not sure if it sent or not?

Rb

Enygma wrote: »

Did you get a PM from me Rb? Not sure if it sent or not?

Yeah sorry, replied briefly, will try to provide you with a full reply asap!

Gordon

Streisand effect +1. Shame the radical surfers (extreme factions) decided to get nasty again, but I would have put money on that happening I must admit.

RoundyMooney

No doubt about it.

The go-with-the-flow-doooood mentality is not prevalent among all Irish surfers, it seems.

Yes, there is a safety concern, but there's also a very provincial and possessive mentality.

One is commendable, one is not, but please. Don't try to hide behind one viewpoint while promoting another.