Surfing Maps Stay - No further discussion on this

ozt9vdujny3srf

I've read through a lot of this stuff and I'm getting kind of cheesed off by the "its dangerous" argument.

Every adventure sport has spots that are of greater technical difficulty and higher consequences if something goes wrong, yet surfing is the only one of these sports that deems this a good reason to not tell people about these spots. In fact, every other adventure sport that I am involved has a guide book or guide website with information about the best spots, a graded difficulty (going by whatever is the standard scale for this sport) and usually mentions particular hazards. And a couple of these sports are far more limited in their resources then surfing in ireland is.

What's the problem with doing the same for surf spots? Withholding information and creating this bull**** mysticism behind secret spots will not make the sport safer. I am afraid you guys are going the wrong way about regulating your sport.


Here is an example of an inexperienced surfer pulling up to a beach that he saw that had great looking surf on it:

Example 1: He knows nothing about this spot, and he is using novice judgement to tell whether or not this is a safe place to surf. He notes that the waves are nice and green, stay mving for quite a while and they seem to lose all their energy before hitting anything too sharp. On this knowledge he goes out for a surf. He ends up being knocked unconscious because the break is onto a jagged shallow reef, and although the waves don't look too big from the shore they are heavy and too steep for him to surf. He also ends up being dragged out to see because this break also has a strong rip current.


Example 2: He has a guide book for the surf spots in ireland. He pulls up to the same place and reads the guide about it. The guide explains that this break can cause serious injury and a strong rip also exists here. The guide warns that this spot is only for advanced surfers who are feeling ballsy. He decides not to go out.

Example 3: He finds this break because of the guide, and he goes out for a surf, despite the warnings he has been given. goes un conscious yada yada yada. Idiots will always find a way of hurting themselves.

Enygma

To be honest I'm not sure it even is a safety issue. Really, you know yourself if you can handle the conditions in front of you, some spots might be perfectly safe one day but the next day on a different swell angle it can kick your ass. At the end of the day you're on your own out there and it's up to you to handle the situation you've put yourself in. That's one of the scariest and best parts of surfing sometimes.

I'm more worried about overcrowding and the damage that that can do to a spot. Publishing a map like this exposes spots that may not be as well know so it will cause an increase in numbers. Overcrowding (too many people in the water to surf) is a genuine problem and has nothing to do with localism (not from here, don't surf here)

It is a well known problem the world over, look at some of the problems they're having in Australia. It's not just an Irish thing.

El Weirdo

Jesus... You go away for a couple of hours... This must be longer than the original threads put together!:D Just one thing though.... 17 pages and no cats? WTF?


Edit: BTW... a quick google search for surfing maps brings this thread up in 3rd place...

BlitzKrieg

how does your map help when you have a spot like a pointbreak with a small take-off zone say 20 - 30 ft wide with sets coming through every 2 - 5 minutes. You now have a large number of surfers competing for insufficient waves pushing each other farther and farther up the point closer and closer to the rocks. Inevitably injuries happen and agro starts at overcrowded spots due to misguided arrogant attempts like your map. I've seen numerous formerly quiet spots destroyed by overcrowding due to publications like your map.

Needless to say you haven't a notion about what I'm talking which is exactly why you should not be publishing this map.

I assume having a note at each point outlining the difficulty of each area and also space available would easily fix that.

If people still barge on knowing that there is limited space and ignored warnings both on the map and (judging from the prior threads) from other surfers in the area, then those people are morons just like the morons who take their masks off inside the barriers of paintball fields, or as Devore put it go racing down black slopes when they dont have the experiancs for it. But like Dev said, with clear enough guidance you wont get morons, or they'll at least wait their turn.

Enygma

You really think surfers are that organised to:
1. Put up a note
and
2. Read it?

I don't think so

To be honest you'd probably get every joe soap lining up to take on the most dangerous breaks just to be seen doing it. It might actually be counter-productive to rate each break!

javaboy

Enygma wrote: »

To be honest I'm not sure it even is a safety issue. Really, you know yourself if you can handle the conditions in front of you, some spots might be perfectly safe one day but the next day on a different swell angle it can kick your ass. At the end of the day you're on your own out there and it's up to you to handle the situation you've put yourself in. That's one of the scariest and best parts of surfing sometimes.

I'm more worried about overcrowding and the damage that that can do to a spot. Publishing a map like this exposes spots that may not be as well know so it will cause an increase in numbers. Overcrowding (too many people in the water to surf) is a genuine problem and has nothing to do with localism (not from here, don't surf here)

It is a well known problem the world over, look at some of the problems they're having in Australia. It's not just an Irish thing.

So let me get this straight. It's not about keeping the surf all to yourself. It's not about safety. It's about overcrowding? Are there not enough surfing spots for everybody? And if there aren't what happens at the moment? Would your argument not imply that there is serious overcrowding at the well known non-secret spots already?

Would it not be better to spread the load out among more breaks than confining it to the few well known ones?

btw I'm not just asking to be antagonistic. I really just can't see the logic to this unless it's about selfishly keeping the spots to yourself.

Gordon

Enygma wrote: »

To be honest I'm not sure it even is a safety issue.

I don't think the surfers that are against freedom of information really know what the issue is either.

Really, you know yourself if you can handle the conditions in front of you, some spots might be perfectly safe one day but the next day on a different swell angle it can kick your ass. At the end of the day you're on your own out there and it's up to you to handle the situation you've put yourself in. That's one of the scariest and best parts of surfing sometimes.

I can dig that, and I think everyone should be able to have that feeling too.

I'm more worried about overcrowding and the damage that that can do to a spot. Publishing a map like this exposes spots that may not be as well know so it will cause an increase in numbers. Overcrowding (too many people in the water to surf) is a genuine problem and has nothing to do with localism (not from here, don't surf here)

If that is the only problem then systems will be put in place by the people surfing there, don't worry. Just like when boards.ie grows - they get moderators to help out, I'm sure when more people go into the water - there will be systems that surfers will put in place. And if there isn't enough room then people will naturally move on. Don't worry.

Build it - they will come, if it is too small - they will find somewhere bigger.

It is a well known problem the world over, look at some of the problems they're having in Australia. It's not just an Irish thing.

What problems? Link?

Enygma

Well surfing is a limited resource. on some days only one or two spots might actually be breaking and if everyones going surfing, they're going surfing at one of two spots. If those aren't very big places then you've got a bunch of surfers all competing for the same waves.
So spreading the load over many breaks might sound great but because of the conditions, it's possible that only one of those spots is actually surfable.

how do we handle it at the moment? Well usually it breaks down very quickly and people steal waves, drop in, give each other stink eye and generally get aggressive. It's not good. Overcrowding is a very bad thing. That's my concern.

Enygma

This is what we DONT want to happen http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/04/25/1177459760469.html

2 stroke

el_weirdo wrote: »

Jesus... You go away for a couple of hours... This must be longer than the original threads put together!:D Just one thing though.... 17 pages and no cats? WTF?

Fixed that.

DeVore

Is this thing on??? Are you guys getting my messages?? I swear, I put forward a possible constructive solution based on precedent and no one even replies. *sniff*...

Gandalf, I put some direct responses to you and you have ignored them simply to have another few swings at RB. Thats dangerous territory because it makes you look like a troll.

Secondly the "over crowding" argument. Thats bollox. Firstly there are already quite a few dozen spots on RB's map, thats a lot of capacity. I am betting that a lot of them are empty or near empty most of the year. I wish there were that many snowboarding locations inside 3 hours flight time from here...

Secondly and most importantly, the fact that there ISNT a map is part of the REASON for any overcrowding during summer. If you dont show everyone the various choices they have then they are ALL going crowd into the same handful of Stormrider listed spots. Making things worse! Oh, of course...... you guys dont care, you'll be nicely alone in your sekrit spots!!

Again, I havent seen any counters to the points I made before either.

DeV.

Toto Wolfcastle

Enygma wrote: »

This is what we DONT want to happen http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/04/25/1177459760469.html

Well surely this could be prevented by surfers not punching each other?

DeVore

Enygma wrote: »

You really think surfers are that organised to:
1. Put up a note
and
2. Read it?

I don't think so

To be honest you'd probably get every joe soap lining up to take on the most dangerous breaks just to be seen doing it. It might actually be counter-productive to rate each break!

And then a moron will DIE, and thats bad... how?

Honestly, sorry if this sounds cold hearted but if you give them all the info and they still do something stupid, then I would prefer they DIDNT reproduce. Its basic Darwinism.

Informed people make informed choices.

DeV.
(I still think you are fighting the sea (no pun) on this one, this change is coming if not on boards the somewhere else... threatening the people you are asking a favour from, probably hastened things along a bit too....)

Gordon

Enygma wrote: »

Well surfing is a limited resource.

Entrepreneurs take note.

on some days only one or two spots might actually be breaking and if everyones going surfing, they're going surfing at one of two spots. If those aren't very big places then you've got a bunch of surfers all competing for the same waves.
So spreading the load over many breaks might sound great but because of the conditions, it's possible that only one of those spots is actually surfable.

Everyone in Ireland goes over to one or two areas? You guys got to get a good map to disperse everybody.

how do we handle it at the moment? Well usually it breaks down very quickly and people steal waves, drop in, give each other stink eye and generally get aggressive. It's not good. Overcrowding is a very bad thing. That's my concern.

Sounds like the surfers have got to learn some manners and treat each other with respect rather than with aggression. Maybe then things can move on and people can work together. Maybe this is where it all starts.

javaboy

DeVore wrote: »

Secondly and most importantly, the fact that there ISNT a map is part of the REASON for any overcrowding during summer. If you dont show everyone the various choices they have then they are ALL going crowd into the same handful of Stormrider listed spots. Making things worse! Oh, of course...... you guys dont care, you'll be nicely alone in your sekrit spots!!

What he said. btw Dev you said secondly twice.:pac:

Enygma wrote:

Well surfing is a limited resource. on some days only one or two spots might actually be breaking and if everyones going surfing, they're going surfing at one of two spots. If those aren't very big places then you've got a bunch of surfers all competing for the same waves.
So spreading the load over many breaks might sound great but because of the conditions, it's possible that only one of those spots is actually surfable.

What does any of that have to do with naming spots? Isn't that going to happen anyway if there are so few spots breaking on a particular day? Or is it really that you want those one or two breaking spots to be your little secret? I can't see how this is anything other than selfishness. I really can't.

El Weirdo

Enygma wrote: »

Well good pubs are a limited resource. on some nights only one or two spots might actually be good craic and if everyones going drinking, they're going drinking at one of two spots. If those aren't very big places then you've got a bunch of drinkers all competing for the same women.
So spreading the load over many pubs might sound great but because of the conditions, it's possible that only one of those pubs is actually any good for pulling.

That's life... Deal with it...

Enygma

DeVore wrote: »

Gandalf, I put some direct responses to you and you have ignored them simply to have another few swings at RB. Thats dangerous territory because it makes you look like a troll.

I don't know Gandalf but I think he's made it clear that he'd like to set aside any issues he's had with Rb for the purposes of this discussion. I don't think he looks like a troll.

Secondly the "over crowding" argument. Thats bollox. Firstly there are already quite a few dozen spots on RB's map, thats a lot of capacity. I am betting that a lot of them are empty or near empty most of the year. I wish there were that many snowboarding locations inside 3 hours flight time from here...

As I've pointed out they don't all work on the same conditions so it may be that only one of those spots is working. It's not bollox, it's a real issue.
You'd be surprised how difficult it is to find empty surf lately. I love surfing alone and I haven't managed it in years. Two weeks ago there were 41 people in the water at 6:30 in the morning at one spot in Cork.

Secondly and most importantly, the fact that there ISNT a map is part of the REASON for any overcrowding during summer. If you dont show everyone the various choices they have then they are ALL going crowd into the same handful of Stormrider listed spots. Making things worse! Oh, of course...... you guys dont care, you'll be nicely alone in your sekrit spots!!

Well surfers do actually promote people going searching for new spots, it's a part of surfing, but it's nice to be able to go and find somewhere that isn't in a guide that's off the beaten track. I'm sure if you've travelled at all you can appreciate that.

Enygma

el_weirdo wrote: »

That's life... Deal with it...

randylonghorn

Oh, jaysus, this shoite all over again!

I'm not a surfer myself (never could get the hang of it unfortunately, terrible sense of balance) but I have known a fair few surfers, and most of them are grand people. There are also a few complete prats, and unfortunately they're often the most vocal / visible. Every community has their like, unfortunately, including Boards.

Their coming on here and trying to intimidate Fuzzy is so far over the line that the line is out of sight. It's about time that the rest of the surfing community stopped rolling their eyes about such behaviour, and made it clear to the public at large that these fvckwits do not represent them.

Like a lot of people on this site, I detest bullies with a passion, and internet bullies are about as low as it can get.

However, while I see DeV's point entirely re: the inevitability of the spread of this information anyway, and for the most part I think it's a good rather than a bad thing ... and while I recognise the depth of understanding he brings to this issue both as a netwhizkid (sorry, oh great one, but 'twas irresistible! ) and as a snowboarder, I'm left with one question nagging at the back of my mind:

If I am a teenager who gets a kick out of surfing, who gets an adrenalin rush out of extreme sports generally, who constantly wants to push faster and further with little regard for my own safety (and let's face it, safety is an issue for wimps, I'm a teenager therefore I'm invincible, right?!) ... will warnings on a map really deter me?

Or will I head off next Saturday with a couple of mates to that secluded spot I never heard of before 20 miles down the coast which is so temptingly marked as "difficult" or "dangerous", over-confident in my own skills, and spend the day there with my mates measuring my ... surfboard ... against theirs?

I definitely am no fan of localism (and in my experience, "localism" seldom has much to do with the true locals), but there is a nagging question in the back of my mind as to whether some of the more level-headed surfers who have questioned this may not have a point?

"Local" breaks? ... publish and be damned, say I!!

But maybe there is an argument for leaving off the trickier breaks that look deceptively easy, and that entice the fools to rush in where the experienced would tread with caution, rather than simply tagging them as "dangerous", and just exciting the adrenalin-junkies?

I'm not even sure of the answer to it myself ... but it might be worth thinking about.

Boston wrote: »

Theres a line in the sand which needs to be drawn. If we allow one group of people to start dictating how this site is run by mean of threats and intimidation then we all loose the ability to speak freely.

The reality, Boston, is that at least one group of people have influenced how this site is run ... see the stickies on the top of every forum. They may not have succeeded in achieving exactly what they wanted ... but they have influenced / changed how the site is run.

BlitzKrieg

how do we handle it at the moment? Well usually it breaks down very quickly and people steal waves, drop in, give each other stink eye and generally get aggressive. It's not good. Overcrowding is a very bad thing. That's my concern.

sounds like a genuine concern.

tell me if I have this right. Due to the many factors required in surfing, weather, tide, etc etc you have an issue that only a limited number of beaches will be open at certain times or days.

Secret spots work by offloading the local surfer community to one beach and leaving the other beach for everyone else.

makes a sort of sense.

I assume factors of the secret spot having the right conditions too correct?

And I remember reading somewhere earlier that some spots require very specific conditions.


It makes sense, but at the same time though it doesnt.

The thing that has me scratching is that there are so many *ifs* and *buts* around the spots that I cant see the numbers being of any substantial size?

I mean the spots that require very *specific* conditions will rarely attract huge numbers because, tourists would have to be lucky to be there at the time and for those not so much into it, the effort might outweigh the reward. So they would still be mostly the local surfers.

Then you take in the more info a guide has it would emphasize certain things, like the size of the spot, the skill required and the difficulty/ease to reach the spot.

I'd say that would shave off alot of numbers.

Yes you'd still have surfers there sometimes who are not local or not the usual crowd, but argueble if they are there it must hopefully mean they have some experiance or at least knowledge of the courtesy between fellow surfers. If the peopler are as aggro as you make them out to be I'd be worried in a more general sense then just surfing. I play Paintball, not similar to Surfing, but even when the games are at there most tense and players start bad mouthing each other, it calms down fairly rapidly after the game, there was some intense emotion at the league two weeks ago, but by the end things had gone back to friendly, thats a sport where you purposely inflict pain on each other, I find it difficult to imagine how surfing can have even more aggressive and sorry if this offends b*tchy competitors.

javaboy

Enygma wrote: »

As I've pointed out they don't all work on the same conditions so it may be that only one of those spots is working. It's not bollox, it's a real issue.
You'd be surprised how difficult it is to find empty surf lately. I love surfing alone and I haven't managed it in years. Two weeks ago there were 41 people in the water at 6:30 in the morning at one spot in Cork.

Maybe all 41 were thinking the same thing about the other 40 people there. Maybe they all want to surf alone? Why should some of those people have to know the secret handshake to find out about the spot?

Well surfers do actually promote people going searching for new spots, it's a part of surfing, but it's nice to be able to go and find somewhere that isn't in a guide that's off the beaten track. I'm sure if you've travelled at all you can appreciate that.

That's cool and I do appreciate but you seem to be changing your story a bit. First the issue was safety. That was debunked. Then it was overcrowding which would only be worse if less spots are known about. And now the issue is wanting to find a place off the beaten track? The more places that remain off the beaten track the more overcrowding there will be in the well known places. The more well known places there are, the less overcrowding there will be. They are two conflicting goals really as I see it.

El Weirdo

javaboy wrote: »

That's cool and I do appreciate but you seem to be changing your story a bit. First the issue was safety. That was debunked. Then it was overcrowding which would only be worse if less spots are known about. And now the issue is wanting to find a place off the beaten track? The more places that remain off the beaten track the more overcrowding there will be in the well known places. The more well known places there are, the less overcrowding there will be. They are two conflicting goals really as I see it.

Yeah... we do seem to be going round in circles here...

Simplicity

i stand by my "removed" posts

javaboy

randylonghorn wrote: »

But maybe there is an argument for leaving off the trickier breaks that look deceptively easy, and that entice the fools to rush in where the experienced would tread with caution, rather than simply tagging them as "dangerous", and just exciting the adrenalin-junkies?

But if the break looks deceptively easy then even some sensible non-idiots might try it along with the dumb thrillseekers. If however there is a map which says "This break looks deceptively easy but is very dangerous, has sharks and spikes and sea mines and nasty stuff and is recommended for experienced surfers only" then the truly inexperienced idiots will surf there but the sensible inexperienced people won't. Darwin awards for everybody in the audience.

Gandalf23

DeVore wrote: »

Gandalf, I put some direct responses to you and you have ignored them simply to have another few swings at RB. Thats dangerous territory because it makes you look like a troll.

To be honest I take exception to that. I am under no obligation to respond to anything you say.

I'd like you to explain how any of my responses make me look like a troll. Could you also show me exactly where I took "another few swings" at rb please?

Thanks,
G23

Enygma

I don't think it's a safety issue, other people said that. Overcrowding is an issue and it's up to surfers to learn to behave themselves, true. That's our problem really
Finding a nice quiet spot is another reason for the whole "secret" spot.

There are more reasons (damage to the environment from crowds) and you might disagree with them or think they're nonsense but they're real reasons.

I know it's a flawed system and I realise that any system based on keeping information secret is destined to fail. But opening the floodgates like this will cause problems.
My main point in this thread is that I don't like the way Boston and Rb have taken this map and made it some kind of a mission to tell as many people as possible about it.
I think their reasons for doing that are to punish the two or three people that don't really represent the rest of Irish surfers, and with no regard for the wishes of the rest of Irish surfers.

You might not agree with those wishes or the reasons behind them but they are the wishes of the vast majority of Irish surfers.

DeVore

Randy, your point about teenagers is well made but its an unfortunate downside of the OVERALL right way to do things.

If I give some noob a piste map and advice (as I have, countless times before) and he ignores it and decides to drop in off a ridge and makes himself the worlds biggest snowball, thats no reason not to mark runs as Black, Red etc...

One counter example doesnt mean its the wrong thing to do, just as one alcoholic doesnt mean we should close pubs.

Enygma, fair dues for keeping it civil and putting your point forward as you have. I dont agree but we dont have to.

I wonder if you think overcrowding will really be helped by publically listing only a few sites. Ah, yes, it will help SOME to the detriment of OTHERS.

Nice community you have there.....


Finally, one point of principle here. If someone from Boards went and publically threatened others on "behalf of" of "from" the Boards community, I would be offering you his freshly fried testicles as peace-trophy. I'm not angry at you, I'm smart enough to focus my anger on the right person generally, but I'm furious about the threats to our mods and others. I think the ISA is woefully out of line to stand by and apologise for this as "part of our culture".

Well, that culture sucks.

DeV.

Enygma

I wouldn't expect that the ISA will condone that behaviour, I really don't think any of those threats were done by a member of the ISA or an ISA affiliated club. I would be very very surprised if that was the case.

They haven't weighed in on this yet either so give them a chance before saying they're out of line.

Surf Culture certainly isn't perfect. I'll agree with you there

DeVore

Gandalf23 wrote:

To be honest I take exception to that. I am under no obligation to respond to anything you say.

I'd like you to explain how any of my responses make me look like a troll. Could you also show me exactly where I took "another few swings" at rb please?

No you arent required to respond to anything I say, however the very evident fact that I have been addressing/answering you while you seem to stoically ignore those responses calls into question the idea that you are really seeking answers in the first place, ergo....



I leave the rest of this line of reasoning to the interested reader as it seems evident from here....

DeV.

DeVore

Enygma, sorry I understood that members of the ISA were responding on this thread earlier.

I fully agree with the concept that "an idea isnt responsible for the people who believe in it". I'm just saying that if someone dragged Boards' pristine reputation into something like that, I would fry them. The ISA might not be responsible for every muppet with a surfboard, but they ARE responsible for the reputation of the sport in the public.

DeV.