Fundamental query on heaven

seamus

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm genuinely interested in how Christianity (or indeed any religion with a heaven/hell concept) resolves what seems to me, to be a fundamental flaw/contradiction in their version of the afterlife.

Let's say you have Margaret. Devout Catholic, goes to mass every week, gets her body and blood (every day during lent), repents for her sins and generally acts like a good Catholic should.

Her Husband Micheal, isn't. He wasn't even baptised. He enjoys his few pints down the local, every Sunday he goes to the local football matches before arriving home for a quick snooze on the couch. He's a good father, a good husband, but couldn't give a rat's ass about this religion stuff.

Margaret and Micheal are dedicated to eachother. They spend one a night every week on a "date", rarely spend any time apart and are hopelessly in love.

Of course, they inevitably die. Catholics believe of course that Margaret goes to heaven, and Micheal by virtue of not being Catholic, doesn't. But therein lies the contradiction. How can heaven be "heaven" for Margaret, if Micheal isn't there?

That is, if marriage is a binding of souls, a profession of love and dedication in front of God, then surely it is not possible to separate these souls without causing tremendous grief and suffering to both of them?

So, there are two possible conclusions:

1. Margaret, by virtue of association, must go to hell. This means that hell is very full and heaven is very empty. Indeed, heaven only contains those people who have never created a close personal relationship in their lives.

2. Micheal, by virtue of association, must go to heaven. This means that heaven is very full and hell is very empty. Indeed, hell only contains those people who have never created a close personal relationship in their lives and who never followed the Catholic faith.

TravelJunkie

Heaven or hell by association?? you've got to be joking.

Margaret, who would be close to God and have a daily relationship with him because she is a Christian (not because she's Catholic), might actually be praying for Michael, that he gets saved.

The Lord will answer her.

Michael one day could start his own relationship with God and might be even more committed and enthusiastic than her.

Watch this space!

seamus

TravelJunkie wrote: »

Heaven or hell by association?? you've got to be joking.

No, not really. Seems the only two logical outcomes IMO.

Margaret, who would be close to God and have a daily relationship with him because she is a Christian (not because she's Catholic), might actually be praying for Michael, that he gets saved.

So is this a blanket "get out of jail" card, i.e. if a christian prays for someone else to "be saved", then God will answer her?

What if she doesn't pray for him?

bubonicus

seamus wrote: »

So, there are two possible conclusions:

really?

seamus

bubonicus wrote: »

really?

As far as I can see. If I'm wrong, feel free to add more.

kelly1

seamus wrote: »

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm genuinely interested in how Christianity (or indeed any religion with a heaven/hell concept) resolves what seems to me, to be a fundamental flaw/contradiction in their version of the afterlife.

Let's say you have Margaret. Devout Catholic, goes to mass every week, gets her body and blood (every day during lent), repents for her sins and generally acts like a good Catholic should.

Her Husband Micheal, isn't. He wasn't even baptised. He enjoys his few pints down the local, every Sunday he goes to the local football matches before arriving home for a quick snooze on the couch. He's a good father, a good husband, but couldn't give a rat's ass about this religion stuff.

Margaret and Micheal are dedicated to eachother. They spend one a night every week on a "date", rarely spend any time apart and are hopelessly in love.

Of course, they inevitably die. Catholics believe of course that Margaret goes to heaven, and Micheal by virtue of not being Catholic, doesn't. But therein lies the contradiction. How can heaven be "heaven" for Margaret, if Micheal isn't there?

That is, if marriage is a binding of souls, a profession of love and dedication in front of God, then surely it is not possible to separate these souls without causing tremendous grief and suffering to both of them?

So, there are two possible conclusions:

1. Margaret, by virtue of association, must go to hell. This means that hell is very full and heaven is very empty. Indeed, heaven only contains those people who have never created a close personal relationship in their lives.

2. Micheal, by virtue of association, must go to heaven. This means that heaven is very full and hell is very empty. Indeed, hell only contains those people who have never created a close personal relationship in their lives and who never followed the Catholic faith.

Hello Seamus, the answer is in the bible:

Matthew 22:
24 Saying: Master, Moses said: If a man die having no son, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up issue to his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first having married a wife, died; and not having issue, left his wife to his brother.

26 In like manner the second, and the third, and so on to the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 At the resurrection therefore whose wife of the seven shall she be? for they all had her. 29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.

There will be no grief whatsoever. We will be joined with God instead of our spouse. Even if our spouse should end up in Hell, we will fully understand and agree with God's justice and see it as good. It's hard for us to understand this here and now but that's because we don't fully understand what it means to reject God's grace.

seamus

kelly1 wrote: »

Even if our spouse should end up in Hell, we will fully understand and agree with God's justice and see it as good. It's hard for us to understand this here and now but that's because we don't fully understand what it means to reject God's grace.

OK. Seems pretty clear cut. But does that "we will fully understand and agree", not interfere with the idea of free will? Do we not retain the right to question God, even in heaven?

calahans

seamus wrote: »

But therein lies the contradiction. How can heaven be "heaven" for Margaret, if Micheal isn't there?

Heaven is being united with God. It is not heaven in the sense that people use it every day. The bond with man could not be compared to that with God.

TravelJunkie

seamus wrote: »

No, not really. Seems the only two logical outcomes IMO.

Is your (illogical) logic based on the term used in a marriage vow of 'binding of the souls' ?

So is this a blanket "get out of jail" card, i.e. if a christian prays for someone else to "be saved", then God will answer her?

What if she doesn't pray for him?

God answers all prayers. I used to keep a prayer book (including a page with names for salvation) you won't believe how many people came to the Lord and some of which I was really surprised (Christians reading you must do this through your lifetime!) - but its important to know that it was not of my doing (ie. preaching to them)

About the 'get out of jail' card its not saved by default, more like God will work in Michaels life until he comes round. Michael will know if he looks deep into his heart for a consistent niggling and maybe one day he will decide to answer it.

bubonicus

seamus wrote: »

As far as I can see. If I'm wrong, feel free to add more.

You see, I don't have too, plenty of Christians will do that.

kelly1

seamus wrote: »

OK. Seems pretty clear cut. But does that "we will fully understand and agree", not interfere with the idea of free will? Do we not retain the right to question God, even in heaven?

You won't ever see the need to question God because you will be given full understanding of God's ways and see everything He does as good. You will be full of grace. When we die we are confirmed in loving or hating God and there will be far greater clarity, like lifting a veil. We will still have free-will which will already have been proven but this free will will be totally in harmony with God's will and we will see anything contrary to God's will as an abomination.

You're asking this question because of an effect of original sin. Our intellect and will are corrupted and we often pursue our own will instead of God's. Before the fall, Adam posessed the preternatural gifts of sanctifying grace, integrity and infused knowledge. i.e. we don't possess these gifts naturally since then.

philologos

seamus wrote: »

OK. Seems pretty clear cut. But does that "we will fully understand and agree", not interfere with the idea of free will? Do we not retain the right to question God, even in heaven?

Seamus, I read this in a book, but I may as well use it here as it's a reasonably good explanation.

Hell or the absence of God, only exists because people have chosen to be absent from Him. Therefore to actually fully respect their free will, hell has to exist. That's the simple logic behind it.

seamus

Thanks for the responses guys, interesting to see that viewpoint.

bubonicus wrote: »

You see, I don't have too, plenty of Christians will do that.

I don't understand your statement. Are you saying that you "don't have to" see any conclusions (as in, you put your faith in God), or you don't see a need to add any more conclusions?

TravelJunkie

Jakkass wrote: »

Hell or the absence of God, only exists because people have chosen to be absent from Him. Therefore to actually fully respect their free will, hell has to exist. That's the simple logic behind it.

I can't imagine how terrible it must be in the 'abscence of God' . I'm not merely saying this as a Christian, even new age and pagans find God in his creation. It also then explains why hell is also referred to as death (abscence of life)

bubonicus

seamus wrote: »

Thanks for the responses guys, interesting to see that viewpoint.

I don't understand your statement. Are you saying that you "don't have to" see any conclusions (as in, you put your faith in God), or you don't see a need to add any more conclusions?

kk, i'll bite.

You said "I"(as in you) only see two conclusions to a problem statment you put foward from your perspective(belief). I tried to say that, Christians or people who will look at things from a different perspective than you, will see more than two conclusions.

That's the problem with belief.

iUseVi

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I can't imagine how terrible it must be in the 'abscence of God' . I'm not merely saying this as a Christian, even new age and pagans find God in his creation. It also then explains why hell is also referred to as death (abscence of life)

What do you mean by "absence of God"? Is he always present at the moment then? For theists and atheists? Because I don't feel particularly tormented at present, so I suppose by your reasoning God must be present, yes?

JC 2K3

Jakkass wrote: »

Hell or the absence of God, only exists because people have chosen to be absent from Him. Therefore to actually fully respect their free will, hell has to exist. That's the simple logic behind it.

Wait, so if I'm happy on Earth without God, I'll be happy in hell? What about the eternity of torturous punishment?


On the subject of Heaven, from how Christians describe it, it seems a bit like going on a Heroin drip for the rest of eternity. Your friends and family are rendered meaningless, and you are eternally in a state of bliss.

rockbeer

TravelJunkie wrote: »

God answers all prayers.

That assertion is demonstrably false. (I wonder how many christians would agree with it though?)

Why does god never heal amputees, no matter how much they pray?

PDN

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Wait, so if I'm happy on Earth without God, I'll be happy in hell? What about the eternity of torturous punishment?

I guess the company you are with makes a difference. A eternity with Genghis Khan, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pope Urban etc probably wouldn't be a bundle of laughs.

TravelJunkie

rockbeer wrote: »

That assertion is demonstrably false. (I wonder how many christians would agree with it though?)

Why does god never heal amputees, no matter how much they pray?

God doesn't answer YES to everything, but he does answer.

bubonicus

PDN wrote: »

I guess the company you are with makes a difference. A eternity with Genghis Khan, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pope Urban etc probably wouldn't be a bundle of laughs.

An eternity with Hendrix, Hicks, Scott, Burton would be a great laugh....

rockbeer

TravelJunkie wrote: »

God doesn't answer YES to everything, but he does answer.

So why, in his wisdom, does no amputee ever qualify to have a prayer answered in the affirmitive? If we're to believe what we're told, he cures cancer readily enough.

TravelJunkie

rockbeer wrote: »

So why, in his wisdom, does no amputee ever qualify to have a prayer answered in the affirmitive? If we're to believe what we're told, he cures cancer readily enough.

I don't have all the answers you know.

I don't mean to be insensitive but you can't really cure an amputated leg. What the amputee is looking for is a miracle. I do believe in miracles but what greater miracle is there than to be able to be in Gods prescence and the receiver of his Grace? All else is secondary really. Our bodies, our circumstances, etc etc.

philologos

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Wait, so if I'm happy on Earth without God, I'll be happy in hell? What about the eternity of torturous punishment?


On the subject of Heaven, from how Christians describe it, it seems a bit like going on a Heroin drip for the rest of eternity. Your friends and family are rendered meaningless, and you are eternally in a state of bliss.

You aren't without God at all. You just think you are without God in Christian belief. God has been looking for you to come to Him since you were born. While you are on earth you are given the chance to decide where you want to spend eternity.

Pompey Magnus

PDN wrote: »

I guess the company you are with makes a difference. A eternity with Genghis Khan, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pope Urban etc probably wouldn't be a bundle of laughs.

Whilst an eternity with Ian Paisley, George Bush, St Paul, Alistair McGrath and C.S Lewis is going to Party Central?

JC 2K3

Jakkass wrote: »

You aren't without God at all. You just think you are without God in Christian belief. God has been looking for you to come to Him since you were born. While you are on earth you are given the chance to decide where you want to spend eternity.

Ok, but point being. If I'm content in my life, not feeling any attachment to any supernatural being, will Hell be any different?

I mean, what about the eternal burning and torture?

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

I guess the company you are with makes a difference. A eternity with Genghis Khan, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pope Urban etc probably wouldn't be a bundle of laughs.

Er, how do you know they aren't all in heaven?

philologos

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Ok, but point being. If I'm content in my life, not feeling any attachment to any supernatural being, will Hell be any different?

I mean, what about the eternal burning and torture?

Life will be very different, because life on this earth and the way it is, is due to the way that God created it and indeed God's continued presence in the world through the Holy Spirit. Life will not be the same as it is now, as you will be living without him. It would seem to me that life in hell would be absent of creation or form.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

Life will be very different, because life on this earth and the way it is, is due to the way that God created it and indeed God's continued presence in the world through the Holy Spirit. Life will not be the same as it is now, as you will be living without him.

What will it be like? What is God's presence doing at the moment?

JC 2K3

Jakkass wrote: »

Life will be very different, because life on this earth and the way it is, is due to the way that God created it and indeed God's continued presence in the world through the Holy Spirit. Life will not be the same as it is now, as you will be living without him. It would seem to me that life in hell would be absent of creation or form.

Define "creation" and "form" in this context.

Do you just mean we'll rot in the ground?

Again, what about this supposed burning for eternity??

Mena

kelly1 wrote: »

You won't ever see the need to question God because you will be given full understanding of God's ways and see everything He does as good. You will be full of grace. When we die we are confirmed in loving or hating God and there will be far greater clarity, like lifting a veil. We will still have free-will which will already have been proven but this free will will be totally in harmony with God's will and we will see anything contrary to God's will as an abomination.

Ok I'm going to go ahead and say it. To me, this appears to be utterly revolting. You're saying that we essentially become automotons here, that is, putting aside reality and reason and assuming this heaven and hell exist.

You can't say free-will remains and in the same sentence say that you will see everything "he" does as good. That just makes no sense.

To be fair, if these two places were actually to exist I'd pick hell. At least that way I'm not mind-controlled into agreeing with everything some supposed deity does, including the possibility of burning my friends and family alive with me watching and agreeing with this...

iUseVi

Mena wrote: »

Ok I'm going to go ahead and say it. To me, this appears to be utterly revolting. You're saying that we essentially become automotons here, that is, putting aside reality and reason and assuming this heaven and hell exist.

You can't say free-will remains and in the same sentence say that you will see everything "he" does as good. That just makes no sense.

To be fair, if these two places were actually to exist I'd pick hell. At least that way I'm not mind-controlled into agreeing with everything some supposed deity does, including the possibility of burning my friends and family alive with me watching and agreeing with this...

That's what I'm getting from this too. Basically you won't have your own mind any more, you won't be thinking your thoughts?

"These aren't the droids you're looking for."

BrianCalgary

Heaven: A life in the company of God. The ability to pursue my interests and to meet and greet with some pretty great people. A place to use my gifts in the service of others and to develop my humanity to the fullest.

Hell: No God. Everyone interested in their own ways and methods and morals. A place where you get to create your own reality but don't have the power to do so. A place where you are run and controlled by a posse of fallen angels who force you to do their bidding and will with no concern for your interests and well being. I read one story where someone ended up in Hell and it was shown as a solitary existence, where the person was completely absent from God and was such a selfish being that he got his hearts desire, his own company for eternity.

I know which I would take.

JC 2K3

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Hell: No God. Everyone interested in their own ways and methods and morals. A place where you get to create your own reality but don't have the power to do so. A place where you are run and controlled by a posse of fallen angels who force you to do their bidding and will with no concern for your interests and well being. I read one story where someone ended up in Hell and it was shown as a solitary existence, where the person was completely absent from God and was such a selfish being that he got his hearts desire, his own company for eternity.

Wait, so you'll be alone in Hell?

I mean, I'd be perfectly content to live a life somewhere where everyone was interested in thier own ways and methods and morals. I mean that means It wouldn't be too different to earth, would it?

But is this the case or are you not able to meet people?

And another question, do you still have free will in Heaven and Hell?

Pompey Magnus

JC 2K3 wrote: »

And another question, do you still have free will in Heaven and Hell?

Would there be any time to practice free will, considering that eternity in Heaven will be spent congratulating God on how great he is?

iUseVi

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Heaven: A life in the company of God. The ability to pursue my interests and to meet and greet with some pretty great people. A place to use my gifts in the service of others and to develop my humanity to the fullest.

Hell: No God. Everyone interested in their own ways and methods and morals. A place where you get to create your own reality but don't have the power to do so. A place where you are run and controlled by a posse of fallen angels who force you to do their bidding and will with no concern for your interests and well being. I read one story where someone ended up in Hell and it was shown as a solitary existence, where the person was completely absent from God and was such a selfish being that he got his hearts desire, his own company for eternity.

I know which I would take.

How do you claim to know so much about these? Certainly not so much detail in the bible, so you can't have got it from there.

Akrasia

PDN wrote: »

I guess the company you are with makes a difference. A eternity with Genghis Khan, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pope Urban etc probably wouldn't be a bundle of laughs.

better than being stuck for all eternity with a load of sycophants

(btw, its not just hitler and stalin etc who'll be in hell, There'll also be people like jimmy hendrix, jim morrison and pretty much every interesting person I can think of.)

Akrasia

TravelJunkie wrote: »

God doesn't answer YES to everything, but he does answer.

what a lovely little device. God will answer your prayers by converting your mates to christianity, but he won't answer the prayers of innocent children being raped by their fathers. Yes, God heard their prayers, he just said no.
(and when they grow up to be drug addicts or prostitutes it's their fault)

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Heaven: A life in the company of God. The ability to pursue my interests and to meet and greet with some pretty great people. A place to use my gifts in the service of others and to develop my humanity to the fullest.

Hell: No God. Everyone interested in their own ways and methods and morals. A place where you get to create your own reality but don't have the power to do so. A place where you are run and controlled by a posse of fallen angels who force you to do their bidding and will with no concern for your interests and well being. I read one story where someone ended up in Hell and it was shown as a solitary existence, where the person was completely absent from God and was such a selfish being that he got his hearts desire, his own company for eternity.

I know which I would take.

So in heaven you are made perfectly happy.

And in hell you get your "hearts desire"

Ummm ... not really seeing the difference there, except maybe in hell you pick what makes you happy where as in heaven you are just made be happy.

rockbeer

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I don't have all the answers you know.

I don't mean to be insensitive but you can't really cure an amputated leg. What the amputee is looking for is a miracle. I do believe in miracles but what greater miracle is there than to be able to be in Gods prescence and the receiver of his Grace? All else is secondary really. Our bodies, our circumstances, etc etc.

So God only answers yes to prayers for things that could have happened by chance anyway.

And he only answers yes to them with the same frequency as would happen by chance.

I think you can draw your own conclusions about the usefulness of prayer.

On balance I think I'll keep buying health insurance.

Dave!

rockbeer wrote: »

So God only answers yes to prayers for things that could have happened by chance anyway.

And he only answers yes to them with the same frequency as would happen by chance.

I think you can draw your own conclusions about the usefulness of prayer.

On balance I think I'll keep buying health insurance.

Heathen!

PDN

rockbeer wrote: »

So God only answers yes to prayers for things that could have happened by chance anyway.

I think many 'miracles' are more of an amazing coming together of circumstances at exactly the required time rather than any suspension of the laws of nature. For example, there is an incident in the Gospels where the disciples needed money to pay the Temple Tax so Jesus sent Peter down to the Sea of Galilee and he pulled a fish out of the water and found the correct coinage in the fish's mouth. That could have happened by chance. Someone dropped a coin in the water, a fish swallowed it, Peter happened to catch that fish etc. What makes it a 'miracle,' or significant in terms of answered prayer, is that it happened when needed and in accordance with the command of Jesus.

And he only answers yes to them with the same frequency as would happen by chance.

No. My experience, and that of many others, is that prayer dramatically increases those one in a million 'coincidences'. The more I pray, the more such coincidences happen.

For example, three times in one year people came to me and, entirely unsolicited, gave the exact sum of money required to pay for something that I was praying for. In each case they had no idea of the need and no idea of the sum required. (The 3 gifts were: 50,000 euro to renovate a church building; 922 euro to cover a direct debit on a car loan that was due the next day, and 20,000 euro I needed to put a deposit on a piece of land to build my home). In each case the sums given were, to the very cent, the figure that I had been praying for. Once would have been remarkable. Twice would have been an amazing coincidence. Three times leads me to believe that either prayer works or else I am the most freakishly lucky person on the planet.

Twelve days ago I visited a hospital and prayed for a young man who had been in a car accident. He was unconscious, kept alive by machines, and scans could detect no brain activity. Family were already discussing funeral arrangements for when the machines were switched off. Together with his mother I prayed and anointed him with oil. One week later he was talking to his parents. A few days later he is eating, chatting to visitors, and was moved out of the ICU. I have seen these things too often for them simply to be coincidences.

Yes, there are lots of things we pray for that don't happen. But the incidences of answered prayer are plainly greater than would be expected by chance alone.

I think you can draw your own conclusions about the usefulness of prayer.

I can and I have.

On balance I think I'll keep buying health insurance.

On balance I think I'll keep praying and buying health insurance.

iUseVi

PDN wrote: »

I think many 'miracles' are more of an amazing coming together of circumstances at exactly the required time rather than any suspension of the laws of nature. For example, there is an incident in the Gospels where the disciples needed money to pay the Temple Tax so Jesus sent Peter down to the Sea of Galilee and he pulled a fish out of the water and found the correct coinage in the fish's mouth. That could have happened by chance. Someone dropped a coin in the water, a fish swallowed it, Peter happened to catch that fish etc. What makes it a 'miracle,' or significant in terms of answered prayer, is that it happened when needed and in accordance with the command of Jesus.

The word miracle to most people does mean a suspension of the laws of nature; kind of like the story of the loaves and the fishes, raising of the dead, that kind of thing.

Have you seen anyone raised from the dead? I have met several Christians who claim such things. I of course have never met the person(s) supposedly raised, or heard an accurate time line of events.
I can only assume that is a case of Lazarus Phenomenon, since direct questions seem to annoy these people.

PDN wrote: »

No. My experience, and that of many others, is that prayer dramatically increases those one in a million 'coincidences'. The more I pray, the more such coincidences happen.

For example, three times in one year people came to me and, entirely unsolicited, gave the exact sum of money required to pay for something that I was praying for. In each case they had no idea of the need and no idea of the sum required. (The 3 gifts were: 50,000 euro to renovate a church building; 922 euro to cover a direct debit on a car loan that was due the next day, and 20,000 euro I needed to put a deposit on a piece of land to build my home). In each case the sums given were, to the very cent, the figure that I had been praying for. Once would have been remarkable. Twice would have been an amazing coincidence. Three times leads me to believe that either prayer works or else I am the most freakishly lucky person on the planet.

Fortuitous things happen to me and others all the time, and yet I don't pray. Interesting. Would the fact that you happen to be the leader of a Church make it more likely that you would receive such gifts of money? I think so.

PDN wrote: »

Twelve days ago I visited a hospital and prayed for a young man who had been in a car accident. He was unconscious, kept alive by machines, and scans could detect no brain activity. Family were already discussing funeral arrangements for when the machines were switched off. Together with his mother I prayed and anointed him with oil. One week later he was talking to his parents. A few days later he is eating, chatting to visitors, and was moved out of the ICU. I have seen these things too often for them simply to be coincidences.

Yes, there are lots of things we pray for that don't happen. But the incidences of answered prayer are plainly greater than would be expected by chance alone.

"Plainly greater." If this were really the case, why have not the numerous studies shown any statistical anomaly?

Akrasia

PDN wrote: »

No. My experience, and that of many others, is that prayer dramatically increases those one in a million 'coincidences'. The more I pray, the more such coincidences happen.

I'm currently finishing off a masters degree and I have very little money and no income at the moment. The other day I got a cheque in the post that I wasn't expecting. Was this god helping me out?
No, it was a cheque that was due to come anyway but I hadn't factored it into my finances.

Coincidences happen all the time to everyone, sometimes they are happy coincidences, sometimes they are sad. Devoted Christians tend to accept the positive things as gifts from god, but rarely blame god for the bad things that happen.

Recently my grandmother has been having a really hard time, a lot of her family are starting to die within weeks of each other. Some of them are young, some of them are elderly. She prays for all her family, some of them have had truly tragic lives, her prayers aren't doing any good.

Pompey Magnus

Akrasia wrote: »

I'm currently finishing off a masters degree and I have very little money and no income at the moment. The other day I got a cheque in the post that I wasn't expecting. Was this god helping me out?
No, it was a cheque that was due to come anyway but I hadn't factored it into my finances.

Oooh, my turn. Last week I was looking forward to going to see Bruce Springsteen at the weekend, one of the nights before the concert I had a wierd dream where he walked past me wearing a strangely designed black and white cowboy hat, not something at all associated with him (as far as I am aware). As it happens on the Sunday night there he was with a zebra-skin type black and white cowboy hat (Pic).

That must have been God answering my bizaare dream of wanting to see Bruce in a mad cowboy hat. God truely does work in mysterious ways.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

No. My experience, and that of many others, is that prayer dramatically increases those one in a million 'coincidences'. The more I pray, the more such coincidences happen.

Non-bias study (yes your personal experiences are bias) suggest that doesn't hold

robindch

PDN wrote: »

But the incidences of answered prayer are plainly greater than would be expected by chance alone.

Did you ask the people who sent you money to tell you why they sent it on the particular day they did? And if so, were they suddenly "inspired" to send you the money, or was it because of some more reasonable explanation?

Because if they were inspired, at god's behest, to send money to you in order so that god could answer your prayers, then you are implying that god has suspended free-will upon the part of your (very helpful) donors.

So, here we have a another contradiction within christian belief -- either god doesn't answer prayers, or god suspends free-will in order to answer prayers. You can't have it both ways.

Or, you could simply be falling victim to the Confirmation Bias, a well-known, but subtle, cognitive bias.

PDN wrote: »

On balance I think I'll keep praying and buying health insurance.

If I were you, I'd do my best to stay healthy, visit the doc regularly, keep up the health insurance and pray in any spare time left over

PDN

iUseVi wrote: »

Have you seen anyone raised from the dead?

No. I have never seen anyone raised from the dead.

Fortuitous things happen to me and others all the time, and yet I don't pray. Interesting. Would the fact that you happen to be the leader of a Church make it more likely that you would receive such gifts of money? I think so.

You are (probably deliberately) missing the point. Of course fortuitous things happen frequently to most people. However, my point was that three times in one year I was given exactly the amount I was praying for, to the very cent.

I belong to a church where there is a culture of people giving money to others. We see sharing and giving as an important part of our faith. Yes, I think my being a leader of the church is a factor - but that would not explain the exact amounts.

"Plainly greater." If this were really the case, why have not the numerous studies shown any statistical anomaly?

I would be interested to hear of any studies that are capable of demonstrating anything on this. Robin has, in some other threads, referred to some that are laughably flawed in their methodology.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

Did you ask the people who sent you money to tell you why they sent it on the particular day they did? And if so, were they suddenly "inspired" to send you the money, or was it because of some more reasonable explanation?

Because if they were inspired, at god's behest, to send money to you in order so that god could answer your prayers, then you are implying that god has suspended free-will upon the part of your (very helpful) donors.

The 922 euro was given as a direct result of someone believing that God had spoken to him about raising money to give me - but that revelation was given a year earlier. Circumstances prevented him from acting upon it until a year later - or less than 24 hours before I needed the 922 eyro.

I find your leap of logic very interesting. God tells someone to do something and, even though the person has the free will whether or not to act upon that, you somehow see a suspension of free will. How on earth do you manage such an intellectual conjouring trick?

Pompey Magnus

PDN wrote: »

The 922 euro was given as a direct result of someone believing that God had spoken to him about raising money to give me - but that revelation was given a year earlier. Circumstances prevented him from acting upon it until a year later - or less than 24 hours before I needed the 922 eyro.

I do find the idea quite unsettling. Today there are people watching their children slowly starve to death because they cannot feed them, I have no doubt that the many of them pray to God for help. However every single day he turns down their pleas as he watches down from far above. However thousands of miles away in Ireland he gives you a helping hand with your car loan. Have you got a better praying technique that these starving families don't know about?

If what you believe is true and God really did help you out in this, dare I say it, minor regard then I would have to conclude than rather than being evidence of a good God who helped out of of his faithfull it was instead evidence of a God who plays games with peoples lives and has twisted priorities.

PDN

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I do find the idea quite unsettling. Today there are people watching their children slowly starve to death because they cannot feed them, I have no doubt that the many of them pray to God for help. However every single day he turns down their pleas as he watches down from far above. However thousands of miles away in Ireland he gives you a helping hand with your car loan. Have you got a better praying technique that these starving families don't know about?

If what you believe is true and God really did help you out in this, dare I say it, minor regard then I would have to conclude than rather than being evidence of a good God who helped out of of his faithfull it was instead evidence of a God who plays games with peoples lives and has twisted priorities.

Ah, now you are talking about something entirely different.

Why do some prayers get answered in the affirmative while others don't? I don't think anyone really knows the answer to that question. If I had a choice I would much rather that God had answered my prayers for my daughter not to die (she did die) rather than a prayer for the money I needed to pay my car tax. So it's hardly a matter of technique.

However, if I only had one experience where prayer had made a difference, rather than hundreds, that would still IMHO constitute a good reason to pray.