Teaching Council Ireland: problem, PGCE transfer, no degree but Native speaker

rcly123

Ok, can anyone (maybe with experience) help here:

I have a teacher, qualified by PGCE in UK, just completed 1 year teaching in a school as a languages teacher teaching German, French, Spanish. This person has glowing references from her first years practice.

[Key: Actually teaching, qualified teacher in UK]

This person is a native German, with complete (and I mean complete) fluency in English (people think she is English after talking to her); good French, and introductory teaching ability in Spanish.

The Teaching Council are not recognising her ability to teach in Ireland unless she does a degree in German, French, or Spanish (she has a MA in English but I'm not sure what they said about that).


Does this sound mad to anyone else? Rules are rules, but if sitting in the back of an ambulance after having a heart attack, an ambulance stopped at a red-light, didn't cross a solid white line etc., it would not be acceptable; is this any different.
Any advice please?

spurious

Does she have a teaching qualification in English?
In fairness being a native speaker doesn't qualify anyone to teach a language.

Are the Teaching Council referring to registering her as a teacher of German or a teacher of English?

rcly123

spurious wrote: »

Does she have a teaching qualification in English?
In fairness being a native speaker doesn't qualify anyone to teach a language.

Sorry, she is trying to teach German, and the Teaching Council want her to do a degree in German to do this.

I mean, no, the fact that she's a native speaker doesn't qualify her to teach, but her teaching qualification, + 1 full years experience teaching the said languages should no? She has a recognisable teaching qulaification ... a "PGCE in German with French".

My question is why if native German, with a recognizable teaching qualification to teach German, would someone have to do a degree in German?

... to learn about the culture, the language etc.!...it's ridiculous; no?

spurious

I think the problem she presents the Teaching Council is that her degree is in English and her teaching qualification is for a different subject. I'm not sure how that can be resolved under the current Irish requirements.

rcly123

hmmmnnn, thanks for your replies, seems sad though. Anyone that could shed any other light or options, I'd be greatfull.

Rosita

rcly123 wrote: »

My question is why if native German, with a recognizable teaching qualification to teach German, would someone have to do a degree in German?

... to learn about the culture, the language etc.!...it's ridiculous; no?

But from what I can gather she doesn't have a recognised teaching qualification by the standards set by the Dept of Ed. for secondary school teaching.

Look at the amount of native English (and Irish) speakers in this country who have to do a degree in English (or Irish) to be recognised as a teacher of those subjects. Why should a different rule be applied to a native German speaker or native speaker of any other language?

If the person has an MA in English I presume she has a BA in English so she should be qualified to teach that subject.

As for your question "Rules are rules, but if sitting in the back of an ambulance after having a heart attack, an ambulance stopped at a red-light, didn't cross a solid white line etc., it would not be acceptable; is this any different." - Yes there is a difference and it is one of degree. I would say that there is such a massive difference in degree between the two circumstances that it renders any analogy ludicrous. This person's ability to get through the teaching council's requirements is hardly a life-and-death matter.

rcly123

Ok, first things first...

Rosita wrote: »

Look at the amount of native English (and Irish) speakers in this country who have to do a degree in English (or Irish) to be recognised as a teacher of those subjects. Why should a different rule be applied to a native German speaker or native speaker of any other language?

I don't think your comparing like with like here. Teaching German as a foreign language is different to teaching English in an English speaking country (not being a foreign language, requires a much higher standard of learning); Irish, however is similar.
I don't know if someone brought up in a gaeltacht area, would require a degree in Irish to teach it? (It is still not quite the same, as living in a gaeltacht would not be as strong as living in an all-German speaking environment.

Rosita wrote: »

...from what I can gather she doesn't have a recognised teaching qualification by the standards set by the Dept of Ed. for secondary school teaching.

This is the thing, she does. The UK PGCE is transferable to the Irish equivalent the PGDE (or H'Dip equally) to the best of my knowledge. It is recognised. On a point of personal experience, I have seen the UK PGCE and my opinion is that is as high if not higher standard than the Irish equivalent.

Rosita wrote: »

If the person has an MA in English I presume she has a BA in English so she should be qualified to teach that subject.

Yes, she would, except to say that English is her second language (she does not _feel_ qualified to teach this; even though the Teaching Council would recognise her as an English teacher allright.

Rosita wrote: »

...such a massive difference in degree between the two circumstances that it renders any analogy ludicrous. This person's ability to get through the teaching council's requirements is hardly a life-and-death matter.

The analogy was implying that all rules have exception. Rules are in place as guidelines, but in exceptional circumstances the rules may not apply. That is:

"No vehicle may proceed through a red-light"

"No vehicle may cross a solid line"

...except that is a garda car or an ambulance, under specific circumstances.

That is, it is my guess that the requirement for a degree in the language you teach - is in place - to ensure a level of skill-and-competence with the language. Now, given that she is a native speaker (verifiable by a very high grade of German by German leaving-cert-equivalent standards); I don't see that the rule is required to ensure skill-and-competence; it is an exception to the rule.

Further,
the requirement for degree is there for skill-and-competence and the requirement for relevant training/education qualification is there to assess ability to teach:
the former has been addressed, the latter is satisfied via the recognised teaching qualification: i.e. she is capable to teach, she is qualified to teach, she also has the bonus of experience; yet she is unacceptable as a candidate to apply for teaching posts??

Just as a matter of interest, if I told you that she had 10 years experience teaching German to A-level would your opinion change? (she doesn't, but it's interesting to see what your opinions are based upon).

rainbowtrout

rcly123 wrote: »

Sorry, she is trying to teach German, and the Teaching Council want her to do a degree in German to do this.

I mean, no, the fact that she's a native speaker doesn't qualify her to teach, but her teaching qualification, + 1 full years experience teaching the said languages should no? She has a recognisable teaching qulaification ... a "PGCE in German with French".

My question is why if native German, with a recognizable teaching qualification to teach German, would someone have to do a degree in German?

... to learn about the culture, the language etc.!...it's ridiculous; no?

Well I think the problem is that although she is a native German speaker she is required to teach grammatically correct German in the Irish school system and being able to speak the language does not confer this ability automatically. Hence the German degree. That is just one aspect I can think of where speaking the language does not mean a person will be able to teach it. It may be the case that she has the PGCE in the UK, but it is only a teaching qualification at the end of the day and does not confer proficiency in a subject, only the ability to teach. I can't see how she is going to get around this one.

rcly123

rainbowtrout wrote: »

... she is required to teach grammatically correct German in the Irish school system and being able to speak the language does not confer this ability automatically. Hence the German degree.

Ya, I can see your point, but let's reverse the situation for a second: (by the way, her PGCE is "a PGCE in German and French" where she trained specifically to teach German and French to the UK A-level standard).

(Consider Jack, who is half-German, half-English with complete fluency in German.)
Suppose Jack had an A in A-level English from a good school in England, and a third-level qualification in politics from a reputable college in England, where he used that English at third level. Then suppose Jack got a teaching qualification specific to teaching English as a foreign language. Then suppose Jack went to Switzerland and taught English (as a foreign-language) in a school for 1 year. Subsequent to Jack's year of experience he gets glowing references for his abilities.

Would you consider Jack qualified to go to Germany and teach English in Germany at the same level?

MathsManiac

Are you sure she applied under the appropriate category?

There is an EU directive, which has been transposed into Irish law, covering mutual recognition of qualifications obtained in member states. It's EU directive 89/48/EEC.

Under this directive, the teaching council / Minister is obliged to recognise the qualification. In certain circumstances, the Council may identify a shortfall by comparison with the qualifications required in Ireland. However, in this case, they may only demand that the shortfall be made up either by an adaptation period or an aptitude test. (That is, there does not appear to be any basis in the directive for a demand to complete an additional degree programme.) People are frequently required to undergo an assessment of their knowledge of the history and structure of the Irish Education system, for example.

If you are applying under the EU directive, you MUST specify that that is the case, and provide certain documents, including confirmation of qualified status from the appropriate authority in the other state.

If she has clearly applied under this directive, and is a qualified teacher in the UK and has provided all relevant documentation, then I believe that they may not demand a new degree: whatever specific deficits are identified, they are obliged to make available an appropriate test or adaptation period for her to rectify the shortfall, and to grant her provisional recognition in the interim.

See page 9 of the following document:
http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_AppForms/APPLICATION_FORM_3rd_Level_Course_09_Jan_08_48852506.pdf

Having said all that, maybe she didn't appply under the directive...

Check out whether she applied under the EU directive. If not, suggest to her that she do so.

And keep us posted!

rcly123

MathsManiac wrote: »

Are you sure she applied under the appropriate category?
...

See page 9 of the following document:
http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_AppForms/APPLICATION_FORM_3rd_Level_Course_09_Jan_08_48852506.pdf
...
Check out whether she applied under the EU directive. If not, suggest to her that she do so.

And keep us posted!

Ok. Thanks very much for your post.

She didn't apply under that directive. She just rang the Teaching council and asked how to register, told her situation and got the appropriate documents. I.e. I just asked her, and she never seen that doc' before.

I'm presuming the "09_Jan_08" in the filename, means that this is a recent document of the same date?

Also, the 1,000euro fee: do you know if any of that gets refunded should the qualification stand?
(Also, should the Teaching Council representative not have had an obligation to make her aware of this option; not that she'd cause any trouble for her, but just nice to know; as she was dealt with quite curtly.)

rcly123

Hi. Just found that form on the teaching council website and it's titled "Course Recognition Application Form (for Colleges and Universities)" so I wonder if this is something universities apply for rather than individuals, as I can't imagine anyone would pay that much money (it's 1,000 euro X no. of subjects)

MathsManiac

Yikes!

Sorry, I linked to the wrong form.

I meant to say see page 9 of this form:
http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_AppForms/Post_Primary_Recognition_Application_80569084_16237125.pdf

Sorry about that.

(It's the same form, I think, as used for any registration, but you have to indicate that you're applying under the directive and supply the documents specified.)

kittex

She uses the normal application for recognition form and ticks the part that asks "Are you applying under EU Directive?". Even at that she will only be able to gain recognition for the subject she has a degree in, i.e. English.
Native speaker does not come inot it anywhere.

Also, I sent you a PM about what the TC told me in regard to a situation a little like this.

Rosita

rcly123 wrote: »

Ok, first things first...

1) I don't think your comparing like with like here. Teaching German as a foreign language is different to teaching English in an English speaking country (not being a foreign language, requires a much higher standard of learning); Irish, however is similar.

2) I don't know if someone brought up in a gaeltacht area, would require a degree in Irish to teach it? (It is still not quite the same, as living in a gaeltacht would not be as strong as living in an all-German speaking environment.


3) This is the thing, she does. The UK PGCE is transferable to the Irish equivalent the PGDE (or H'Dip equally) to the best of my knowledge. It is recognised. On a point of personal experience, I have seen the UK PGCE and my opinion is that is as high if not higher standard than the Irish equivalent.


4) Yes, she would, except to say that English is her second language (she does not _feel_ qualified to teach this; even though the Teaching Council would recognise her as an English teacher allright.


5) The analogy was implying that all rules have exception. Rules are in place as guidelines, but in exceptional circumstances the rules may not apply. That is:

"No vehicle may proceed through a red-light"

"No vehicle may cross a solid line"

...except that is a garda car or an ambulance, under specific circumstances.

6) That is, it is my guess that the requirement for a degree in the language you teach - is in place - to ensure a level of skill-and-competence with the language. Now, given that she is a native speaker (verifiable by a very high grade of German by German leaving-cert-equivalent standards); I don't see that the rule is required to ensure skill-and-competence; it is an exception to the rule.

7) Further, the requirement for degree is there for skill-and-competence and the requirement for relevant training/education qualification is there to assess ability to teach: the former has been addressed, the latter is satisfied via the recognised teaching qualification: i.e. she is capable to teach, she is qualified to teach, she also has the bonus of experience; yet she is unacceptable as a candidate to apply for teaching posts??

8) Just as a matter of interest, if I told you that she had 10 years experience teaching German to A-level would your opinion change? (she doesn't, but it's interesting to see what your opinions are based upon).

1) Of course I am comparing like with like. If you want to teach English you should have a degree in English according to the rules. If you want to teach History you have a degree in History. This is required irrespective of any other objective assessment of your knowledge in the subject. Why should German be any different? That it is a foreign language is neither here nor there. Irish teachers are in effect teaching a 'foreign' language in the sense that it is the first language of very few students and I know of no concession for them. Yes, you'll get the hard cases in every walk of life but the system is there for good reason and everyone knows where they stand.

2) Of course they do require a degree. The same rules apply to them as to everyone else.

3) The requirement, to my knowledge, to be qualified to teach a subject in Ireland is to (a) have a degree in the sublect and (b) to have completed the teaching diploma. The lady in question doesn't meet these requirements for German or the other languages which is the matter you raised.

4) Without being too abrupt about it. She is either qualified to teach English or she isn't. How she feels about her competence is another matter. It seems extraordinary to have come through a BA and MA in the subject and have the level of spoken English that you claimed in the first post - "a native German, with complete (and I mean complete) fluency in English (people think she is English after talking to her)" - and yet not feel confident to teach the subject. While that's an different matter anyway, it does contradict your view that her fluency in German should confer on her some great advantage in teaching the subject. If she has native fluency in English but doesn't feel confident to teach it despite academic training in the subject both at Primary and Master's degree level plus teaching diploma, it is hardly a compelling endorsement of her potential as a German teacher.

5) Like I said the difference was one of degree not one of kind. The message you were trying to get across was clear. Just a life-and-death analogy sent the wrong signals.

6) Yes, your "guess that the requirement for a degree in the language you teach - is in place - to ensure a level of skill-and-competence with the language." is a fair enough guess. It is also there I would say to ensure fairness and transparency in the providing of teaching posts to people. The bar is set and everyone has to reach it. The question is why should the person you write of be the "exception to the rule" that applies to everyone else?

7) Presumably it is not the case that "she is unacceptable as a candidate to apply for teaching posts" in the subject or subjects for which she is qualified? Obviously - as per every other teaching candidate in the country - she is unacceptable as a candidate for posts for which she is not qualified. What is wrong with that? The same applies to everyone. Why would some arbitrary system be better?

8) No. My opinions are based on the need for the same rule to apply to everybody. If somebody suggests and justifies in a general context, a fairer and more objectively transparent system, then I'm all ears. A reasonable argument that requirements for teaching qualifications should be altered and perhaps move away from degrees as a means of fairly and transparently and objectively assessing knowledge levels in different subject areas would be far more interesting than a claim that a particular individual should be above the current rules when nobody else is.

MathsManiac

kittex wrote: »

She uses the normal application for recognition form and ticks the part that asks "Are you applying under EU Directive?". Even at that she will only be able to gain recognition for the subject she has a degree in, i.e. English.
Native speaker does not come inot it anywhere.

Also, I sent you a PM about what the TC told me in regard to a situation a little like this.

I don't disbelieve you, but, if it is as you say, it is not clear to me how the Council is acting within the law. If you are a qualified teacher of German and Spanish in an EU country, I'd be interested to see what paragraph in the EU directive permits the Minister (or his/her designated authority) not to recognise you as a qualified teacher of German and Spanish in Ireland.

spurious

It begs the question though - can you train as a subject teacher in the UK without a primary degree in that subject?

rcly123

Rosita wrote: »

1) ...
2) Of course they do require a degree. The same rules apply to them as to everyone else.
...

Ok, I don't agree with you. I do not believe that rules are just rules.

However, I think it's going against the context of the thread to continue the debate here so PM me if you want me to explain my disagreement.

rcly123

spurious wrote: »

It begs the question though - can you train as a subject teacher in the UK without a primary degree in that subject?

Well, the Teaching Council's very own "Post Primary Recognition Application" states
"...or equivalent award, which must in the opinion of the
Council be adequate to enable the holder to teach at least one of the approved subjects"

which would seem to suggest that you don't need a primary degree in Ireland either. The wording seems to support my previous argument for the exception to the rule.

It seems to me that we might all be better to sit tight until someone can give a definitive response beside opinions (including me); so PMs for cat-fights please.

Rosita

rcly123 wrote: »

Ok, I don't agree with you. I do not believe that rules are just rules.

However, I think it's going against the context of the thread to continue the debate here so PM me if you want me to explain my disagreement.

I don't really understand the phrase "I do not believe that rules are just rules" in this context. The rules are designed to create a fair, equitable and transparent system for appointing teachers.

Any exception to very important rules should be very much with a greater good in mind, such as the flexibility which would allow your hypothetical ambulance through a red light.

It seems to me that rules which attempt to control the standard and knowledge level of a person who teaches subjects in schools is a pretty important rule.

I have read nothing in what you say to suggest that there is anything approaching that level of urgency in this case. It seems to me that it is just another case of someone who is unqualified to do a specific job (in this case to be a German teacher) in the same way that I am not qualified to be a Plumber or an Accountant.

As I said the last piece of my last post, if you believe that there should be different rules in place governing qualification to teach and which could be applied in a broad context - as such rules should be - then it would be interesting to hear what those rules might be or at the very least give us an indication of the type of people to whom the rules should not apply and a credible reason why such exceptions are indeed so overwhelmingly for the greater good that they could be justified.

I fail to see why such a debate is going against the context of the thread. I think, given the title of the thread, we are discussing the core point. I realise now that you probably did not expect to be challenged on your opinion but it's hardly a cat-fight. Surely we are adult enough to throw out a few opinions and defend them publicly? I have no problem if you don't want to get into it any more, but it certainly wouldn't bother me enough on a personal level to get into PMs on it. I think it's a useful topic to have aired publicly but no more than that from my perspective.

rcly123

Ok, lets not loose the run of ourselves here:

MathManiac has already pointed out, Directive 89/48/EEC which seems to be the second level equivalent of the Bologne process at third level.

I have quoted text from the Teaching Council's document stating:
"...or equivalent award, which must in the opinion of the Council be adequate to enable the holder to teach... "

The person in question was originally told over the telephone "you must have a degree" which seems incorrect.

When you say:

Rosita wrote: »

...It seems to me that it is just another case of someone who is unqualified to do a specific job (in this case to be a German teacher) in the same way that I am not qualified to be a Plumber or an Accountant.

...and having previously stating that we are dealing with someone who is a qualified teacher in another EU country, someone who actually meets both criteria outlined by the Teaching Council - and further having MathManiac previously stating:

"...they are obliged to make available an appropriate test or adaptation period for her to rectify the shortfall"

I have to question whether you are posting by just looking at your own posts or whether you are taking into account all details of the thread.

As for:

Rosita wrote: »

...I fail to see why such a debate is going against the context of the thread. I think, given the title of the thread

because I would have liked this thread to be useful to people in the same situation, confused by a Teaching Council decision, and looking to find out where they stand. (I think this argument is interesting, but slightly unrelated to the core concern: i.e. where do you stand, if in the same situation as outlined here? Can you do anything to appeal? Are the teaching council correct in saying that you must get a degree? (...it appears NOT to be the case based on the previous quote from their criteria)

With regard your comment:

Rosita wrote: »

I realise now that you probably did not expect to be challenged on your opinion but it's hardly a cat-fight

Can I ask you to start a new thread, and challenge away, I'm more than happy to address each point you make. I have no problem being challenged on any opinions I hold.

kittex

spurious wrote: »

It begs the question though - can you train as a subject teacher in the UK without a primary degree in that subject?

It differs.
In England, NI and Wales you train as a teacher with a core subject, which you should have a degree or professional experience in. You can - once probated and fully registered in one subject - be used by a school for any subject they see fit. Secondary can also teach primary, and vice versa.

In Scotland you can only train in a subject you have a degree in and you are then only able to teach that subject.
There are awards in Scotland for Professional Recognition in areas like Religious Education, PSE (CSPE) and IT. Once you have professional recognition, you are allowed to teach them but you are not registered in that subejct. Therefore, it would not be transferable under EU directive.

Taking myself as an example, I am registered in English with professional recognition in Media, RE and PSE. In Ireland I am only allowed to register the English, as that is all that is on my registration.
In England however, I can teach anything the school deems me fit to teach.

I believe the Irish TC are, once established and actually doing what they're supposed to do, looking at adding a similar system to the Scottish GTC.

Rosita

rcly123 wrote: »

Can I ask you to start a new thread, and challenge away, I'm more than happy to address each point you make. I have no problem being challenged on any opinions I hold.

I haven't even the vaguest inclination of starting another thread on the matter. What a waste of time it would be to just repeat the same material on another thread - and perhaps be met with the same "careful now, let's not get carried away" obfuscation.

It is interesting to see you going from your original position of thinking that 'rules are not just rules' to now grasping at some directive or other. My position is that if the person is deemed qualified to teach under the terms of the teaching council (or whoever it is has the ultimate say on such matters) that's fine. Even if that qualification is arrived at in a roundabout way it doesn't matter as long as it is provided for within the rules and is widely available and transparent. But the idea that someone should be put through on a nod and never mind the pesky rules is anathema to me anyway.

Your position at the outset and in replies to me has been suggesting that some kind of exception to the rule should be allowed in this case. That is what I have some difficulty with and it is a pity that you were not willing to flesh out this point of view in one straightforward post without making a song and dance about it and suggesting that another thread be started.

Anyway, that's the last I have to say on it.

ISAW

Rosita wrote: »

My position is that if the person is deemed qualified to teach under the terms of the teaching council (or whoever it is has the ultimate say on such matters) that's fine.

But the actual LAW is affected by the Bologna Process. In Ireland, as I see it, the Minister could actually pass a statutory instrument or make a declaration for a person but in practice it is left to the teaching council TC to regulate the profession. Now it is the TC who stipulate a degree (actually I think it is a "substantial portion" of a degree for example say you did a three year degree in science but two of them in chemistry you might be accepted to teach in that but not in Biology or Physics) in Ireland. But it is also true that you can submit your own "equivalent experience" . there is a process for that on the TC website.

However, the Bologna process recognises equivalent EU standards. If someone has a PGCE from the UK then the TC has to recognise that. Another aside here, there are THREE aspects to teaching
1. Having a subject knowledge - around which this discussion seems to revolve
for irish applicants the TC has a file called "Autoquals" on their website which tells you what degrees in Ireland they recognise for what subjects. for example a B.Sc. in science education might be recognised as satisfying Physics Chemistry and Biology.

2. Knowing something of the theory of education and teaching and learning - H Dip/PGDE stuff
Again in the autoquals and again some undergraduate degrees such as home economics or science education may cover the education theory. It is also possible to get a book fromn the TC and read it and do a test on history of the Irish education system which could complete this bit

3. Having a required number of hours.
now this is the practical problem! A school has to accept you and you can teach for a year and get the hours up. But you have to get accepted by them first! and they will not pay you full whack until you get the recognition.
It isnt any different for say a history graduate from an Irish university doing a PGDE in history teaching.


There are TC procedures for allowing someone who has either 1 or 2 or both to get started on 3 and get recognition. also if you have been teaching for years before the TC you get the TC recognition anyway.

Even if that qualification is arrived at in a roundabout way it doesn't matter as long as it is provided for within the rules and is widely available and transparent. But the idea that someone should be put through on a nod and never mind the pesky rules is anathema to me anyway.

This seems to be your problem. First nobody suggested "put through on a nod" . What was suggested was that equivalent status already exists. If the teacher was acting in that respect in the UK then under EU law it could be argued that they are entitled to it in Ireland. But if the Minister wanted to the Minister could "put someone through". That is very unlikely however since the Minister usually doesn't interfere but do remember part of why politicians exist is to circumvent bureaucrats who get caught up in rules about recognition and forget they were set up to enable teaching in the first place. If the person can do the job why shouldn't they? The law/rules was only set up to have an acceptable standard. In fact as I have stated above the rules allow for people without degrees or acceptable standards for new entrants who have been teaching for years to get recognition.

Your position at the outset and in replies to me has been suggesting that some kind of exception to the rule should be allowed in this case. That is what I have some difficulty with and it is a pity that you were not willing to flesh out this point of view in one straightforward post without making a song and dance about it and suggesting that another thread be started.

Anyway, that's the last I have to say on it.

I think the position to me seems to be that Irish bureaucrats in the TC seem to have their own way of doing things and stipulate this over the phone to applicants.

But they are not following their own rules! The stuff is all on the TC website. If you don't want to discuss it and have already decided what you think other people's positions are then go and look at the TC website under secondary teacher qualifications and application procedures.

The one big problem I have is that one has to pay a fee for each subject assessed and even then you do not get feedback on their criteria of they turn you down.

Sir Humphrey

ISAW wrote: »

If the person can do the job why shouldn't they? The law/rules was only set up to have an acceptable standard.

How do you determine that someone can do the job if they don't reach the acceptable standard? Is that not what the standard is for in the first place..........to determine some way of measuring that someone can do the job?

ISAW

Sir Humphrey wrote: »

How do you determine that someone can do the job if they don't reach the acceptable standard? Is that not what the standard is for in the first place..........to determine some way of measuring that someone can do the job?

yOU DETERMINE IF SOMEONE CAN DO THE JOB BY ALLOWING THEM TO DO IT AND SEEING IF THEY ARE COMPETENT.

In practice Examinations only came about because Universities could not do peer review on everyone. The widespread availability of degrees brought about certification. But again my point is it isn't the piece of paper that matters it is the quality of the teacher.

The standard of a "good teacher" isn't a piece of paper saying that they passed an exam in the subject they teach. That is only a certification of their level of ability to pass an exam in that subject. But even given the degree standard there is a whole plethora of added on administration for the education system, just like there is in health!

trekkypj

Can I wade in here? I have applied for the PGDE but I'm not a teacher.

Between my BA in Media Studies and English, my MA in Postcolonial Literatures and my graduate LLB, I have spent six years in college to date. Add the PGDE and that will make it seven years.

Now, just suppose I wanted to teach CSPE as a second subject in an Irish secondary school. If I haven't studied a degree in sociology and politics, or if I hadn't done the diploma in CSPE, does this mean I can't teach it even if it was one of the subjects for my PGDE?

So I would sympathize the example cited by the OP, namely a native German speaker with an English PGDE and who seemingly can't teach the subject here despite 10 years experience teaching the subject to A level in England. This really seems shocking to me as someone who wants to become a teacher and would discourage me if I faced a similar issue.

Surely there's an easier way for native speakers to become eligible to teach the subject? A language proficiency test for example? I mean, surely the whole point is that the person speaks the language and can teach it!

Powerhouse

trekkypj wrote: »

Now, just suppose I wanted to teach CSPE as a second subject in an Irish secondary school. If I haven't studied a degree in sociology and politics, or if I hadn't done the diploma in CSPE, does this mean I can't teach it even if it was one of the subjects for my PGDE?

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that the subjects you choose for your Dip are even vaguely relevant to your qualification to teach them. Someone must have a recognised degree in a subject to register with the TC as a teacher of the subject (allowing for special arrangements for certain 'filler' subjects without obvious under-graduate teaching paths). That is the only way you qualify to teach a subject. Taking a subject as a methodology in the Dip, essentially to make up credits in that course, does not make this reality go away.

Powerhouse

ISAW wrote: »

yOU DETERMINE IF SOMEONE CAN DO THE JOB BY ALLOWING THEM TO DO IT AND SEEING IF THEY ARE COMPETENT.

So you would test my competence at tiling your kitchen or removing your appendix simply by letting me at it and seeing how I got on? It's an interesting alternative to people being qualified and trained at something, I'll give you that. Not sure it'll catch on in practice though.

essdee

Here is a link to a podcast of an interview that I did with Aine Lawlor, the Director of the Teaching Council on last Sunday's Inside Education:

http://insideeducation.podbean.com/2010/03/14/programme-36-the-teaching-council-14-3-10/.

It begins with the views of some teachers on the work of the Council.

I hope you find it interesting.

Melanoma

She is not qualified to teach German, unless 30% of here degree was in German for a three year period. This stipulation is something the teaching council are very proud of. They do not accept the ability of principals to determine the ability of a candidate qualified as a teacher to do a job teaching a related subject or one that the candidate has a skill in.
Ireland has a super abundance of teachers so this can be afforded. I'd say forget teaching German. Unless the modules for German are completed over a few years, which is expensive.

Melanoma

ps.. there is still little hope of getting a job as teaching in Ireland is now say 100 applications per job. I teach Physics and here I have applied for 20 positions this summer and only got an interview for one. I have six years experience.

Toto Wolfcastle

This thread was started 3 years ago and the last post was a year ago. Locked.