Intelligent Design in Irish University

Standman

A guy I know who just finished his final exams in a branch of science in NUIG was at an interview with some lecturers to see if he could be awarded a higher grade. One of the questions asked by the examiner was what his opinions are on Intelligent Design, and as far as I know he asked everyone else about it aswell. I don't know what the motivations were behind that question, but it is kind of worrying that it was even brought up. The thing is it's obviously not even mentioned on any science course and most of the people asked did not even know what Intelligent Design was.
Maybe he was trying to find out if there was anyone stupid enough to believe that, I don't know, but surely it should not have been asked regardless.

Has anyone heard of this kind of thing happening before? I never thought ID would be taken seriously on this side of the atlantic and I really hope this isn't a warning sign.

robindch

Standman wrote: »

Maybe he was trying to find out if there was anyone stupid enough to believe that, I don't know, but surely it should not have been asked regardless.

The point is arguable either way and I certainly wouldn't like the issue to require legislation or even written guidance. Regardless of that, ID remains an issue at the front of the ongoing culture war against rational thought, and biology in particular, and it's as good a question as any other single one to help distinguish scientists from non-scientists.

I have heard worrying, but unconfirmed, stories about undergraduate classes in the USA and Canada where creationists make up significant percentages. And a friend of mine mentioned a few weeks back, that a friend of hers who works as a biology teacher in a school in Canada, had been the subject of a dismissal request from a delegation of parents for her teaching that natural selection explains the diversity of life on earth.

And I am aware of a few Irish teachers -- one particularly pop-eyed nutcase from Monaghan stays in my memory -- who do teach creationism in biology classes in Irish schools. But there was zero interest from the Department of Education about this.

As AiG seems to have sorted out its self-generated legal troubles with its Aussie and UK operations and is no doubt searching for new markets in which to offload its simple-minded and fatuous crap, perhaps now might be a useful time to attempt to reconnect with the Department and get them to issue formal guidelines about the topic?

Black Swan

Standman wrote: »

The thing is it's obviously not even mentioned on any science course and most of the people asked did not even know what Intelligent Design was.

With all the press, journal articles, court actions, and debate? No one in Galway science reads beyond what is assigned, either? Now that's troubling too? Now I am not a defender of ID to the slightest degree, but to plead ignorance, is a bit far fetched? Not even a coffeehouse debate after too much caffeine during years of education? Is Galway science so narrowly focused as to mention in passing ideas that may not be scientific?

Standman wrote:

I never thought ID would be taken seriously on this side of the atlantic and I really hope this isn't a warning sign.

Of course, such questions would never be taken seriously in Irish university? Only North Americans would have the slightest knowledge of what ID might be, or in some cases, a proclivity to defend or oppose the concept? Of course, no one in Irish university in the science curriculum encounters the philosophy of science, or is expected to have the slightest notion of what that might be?

You might want to do a bit of a literature review regarding who had a lot to do with the founding of the university concept? "Idea of a university" comes to mind, by a famous Irish educator called Newman, who was also a high official of the Church? One interpretation of his work that resonates with me is that a university exposes students to a university of thought (including half-baked ones like ID), and gives the student the intellectual tools to challenge theoretical, empirical, and practical notions of reality, including those based upon scientific methods (e.g., Wallace's Wheel, et al), or those that are unscientific (and perhaps value laden like ID).

I applaud the prof that asked the question (in combination with other questions that students might be better prepared to answer). Even if the student could not issue forth a conceptual definition of ID, along with contrary evidence and theories that tend to be accepted by his scientific discipline, the mere thought processes exhibited by the student when caught unprepared might be useful in evaluating his level of academic and intellectual preparedness for higher certification?

stereoroid

The above-mentioned Cardinal Newman was, of course, the founder of the Catholic University of Ireland, now University College Dublin (UCD). It has a Christian Union, and an Islamic Society, is otherwise secular.

I've just spent my 1st year there, and didn't find anything that concerned me. Just the occasional poster inviting people to Christian "meetings" or Islamic "discussions" - the usual lazy flytraps for the gullible.

PS: I have two more years there, and I am wondering if I ought to start a Humanist Society. (I wouldn't call it an Atheist Society by name, that would make it a magnet for disruptive nutters trying to save our souls... I might take this to a different thread or forum.

Sapien

Standman wrote: »

A guy I know who just finished his final exams in a branch of science in NUIG was at an interview with some lecturers to see if he could be awarded a higher grade. One of the questions asked by the examiner was what his opinions are on Intelligent Design, and as far as I know he asked everyone else about it aswell. I don't know what the motivations were behind that question, but it is kind of worrying that it was even brought up. The thing is it's obviously not even mentioned on any science course and most of the people asked did not even know what Intelligent Design was.
Maybe he was trying to find out if there was anyone stupid enough to believe that, I don't know, but surely it should not have been asked regardless.

Has anyone heard of this kind of thing happening before? I never thought ID would be taken seriously on this side of the atlantic and I really hope this isn't a warning sign.

I have some friends who have just finished the moderatorship in Zoology in Trinity, and they had at least one course that dealt with arguments against creationism, leading to at least one exam in which they were required to formulate responses to claims of Intelligent Design. Perhaps it was more along these lines that the examiner you speak of was thinking.

Dades

If you ask me, the professor's question is somewhat moot unless we know the reasoning behind it.

Black Swan

Dades wrote: »

If you ask me, the professor's question is somewhat moot unless we know the reasoning behind it.

The OP could have asked? Still can? Go directly to the source, rather than conjecture here? But that would spoil all the fun?

Zillah

I'd have thought the answer was fairly obvious in the context? He was having an interview to see if he deserves a higher award, demonstrating that he understands ID and why its not science would be quite important. If he had said "it deserves equal air time" or admitted he had no idea what it was I'd imagine that'd be a strong point against him receiving the higher grade.


Its exactly the sort of question I'd think of asking in an interview setting like that. If he were able to explain what ID was and what the crucial non-scientific flaws were I'd be impressed.


If they were considering introducing ID in any variety, why the hell would they be polling students in these sort of interviews?

bus77

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Not even a coffeehouse debate after too much caffeine during years of education? Is Galway science so narrowly focused as to mention in passing ideas that may not be scientific?

Well Martin Sheen went there for a semester. Said he was a bit disapointed at the lack of revolutions going on.

Standman

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

The OP could have asked? Still can? Go directly to the source, rather than conjecture here? But that would spoil all the fun?

I was simply told this by a friend of mine, I'm not part of that course nor do I know who this professor was and I don't feel particularly confident about seeking him out to question the topics of an interview he did. It is just something that I thought was interesting and was wondering if anyone else had similar experiences.

adamd164

Zillah wrote: »

I'd have thought the answer was fairly obvious in the context? He was having an interview to see if he deserves a higher award, demonstrating that he understands ID and why its not science would be quite important. If he had said "it deserves equal air time" or admitted he had no idea what it was I'd imagine that'd be a strong point against him receiving the higher grade.

Exactly my thoughts.

This is hyperbole:- the fact is that ID will NEVER be a part of any Irish University curriculum.

Black Swan

bus77 wrote: »

Well Martin Sheen went there for a semester. Said he was a bit disapointed at the lack of revolutions going on.

Martin Sheen? The actor from the old film "Apocalypse Now!," who had a relatively young heart attack while filming in the Philippines? That film was 1979 or early 1980's? Was he 4-year or grad? Could it be that he attended NUIG during the mid to late 1960's or early 1970's Viet Nam War Era when student protests were in full swing over in the USA? If so, then there would be quite a contrast between NUIG and universities in the States way back then, and certainly not reflective of today's universities Stateside (in the violate-your-civil-rights Patriot Act Big Brother Bush Era).

If you protest waterboarding as torture on campus today, you will get labeled a terrorist sympathizer. And if you check-out university library books on the Dept of Homeland (In)Security no-no list, they will open a file and track you. University of Texas students did protest this a couple of years back, but the protest, per se, was totally whimpy by Viet Nam Era standards, and might as well never been done. The point being that if Martin Sheen was to jump in his time machine and go back-to-the-future and enroll today in either NUIG or a Stateside university, in terms of "revolutions" in thought, or whatever, I doubt that he would find much to excite him here or across the pond.

PDN

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Martin Sheen? The actor from the old film "Apocalypse Now!," who had a relatively young heart attack while filming in the Philippines? That film was 1979 or early 1980's? Was he 4-year or grad? Could it be that he attended NUIG during the mid to late 1960's or early 1970's Viet Nam War Era when student protests were in full swing over in the USA? If so, then there would be quite a contrast between NUIG and universities in the States way back then, and certainly not reflective of today's universities Stateside (in the violate-your-civil-rights Patriot Act Big Brother Bush Era).

If you protest waterboarding as torture on campus today, you will get labeled a terrorist sympathizer. And if you check-out university library books on the Dept of Homeland (In)Security no-no list, they will open a file and track you. University of Texas students did protest this a couple of years back, but the protest, per se, was totally whimpy by Viet Nam Era standards, and might as well never been done. The point being that if Martin Sheen was to jump in his time machine and go back-to-the-future and enroll today in either NUIG or a Stateside university, in terms of "revolutions" in thought, or whatever, I doubt that he would find much to excite him here or across the pond.

No, it was very recently (2006) that Sheen attended NUIG.

Black Swan

PDN wrote: »

No, it was very recently (2006) that Sheen attended NUIG.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification. Just googled his bio (birth name Ramon Antonio Gerard Estevez born Dayton, Ohio, USA). He was enrolled as a 3-year BA student in English Lit, Phil, and Oceanography at NUIG. Let's see, he was born 3 August 1940 and would have been an extraordinary (non-traditional) student at around age 66 in 2006? Well, it can be said that he has attempted to keep the spirit of the 1960's-early 1970's protest movement alive to this day in the States, seeing that he was arrested somewhat recently for protesting. But I would suggest that he is not typical or representative of protests on campuses today in the States, and more of a throw-back to earlier times. I would further venture to guess that most students seem to be more worried about getting employment (during the Bush undeclared USA recession) than protesting or seeking "revolutionary" perspectives in the States?

So to restate the point, but with Sheen's more recent enrollment clarified, I doubt that American actor Martin Sheen (aka Ramon Estevez) would be able to demonstrate a large contrast between NUIG and most Stateside universities of today in terms of exposure to "revolutionary" perspectives (unless he was to go back in time and contrast NUIG education with a bygone USA protest era of maybe 40 years or so past)?

Akrasia

stereoroid wrote: »

The above-mentioned Cardinal Newman was, of course, the founder of the Catholic University of Ireland, now University College Dublin (UCD). It has a Christian Union, and an Islamic Society, is otherwise secular.

I've just spent my 1st year there, and didn't find anything that concerned me. Just the occasional poster inviting people to Christian "meetings" or Islamic "discussions" - the usual lazy flytraps for the gullible.

PS: I have two more years there, and I am wondering if I ought to start a Humanist Society. (I wouldn't call it an Atheist Society by name, that would make it a magnet for disruptive nutters trying to save our souls... I might take this to a different thread or forum.

Why not call it an atheist society? Call a spade a spade.

Let the nutters gnash their teeth, you should be well able for them.

A few good debates should certainly get the exchange of ideas flowing and might even save a few undecideds from a lifetime of indoctrination.

Sapien

Dades wrote: »

If you ask me, the professor's question is somewhat moot unless we know the reasoning behind it.

From the point of view of this discussion, perhaps - but in itself, as a question to put to an aspiring bachelor in the biological sciences, I think it makes perfect sense.

PDN

Akrasia wrote: »

Why not call it an atheist society? Call a spade a spade.

Let the nutters gnash their teeth, you should be well able for them.

A few good debates should certainly get the exchange of ideas flowing and might even save a few undecideds from a lifetime of indoctrination.

Yeah, the rest of us have to put up with disruptive nutters. Why should you be any different?

Akrasia

PDN wrote: »

Yeah, the rest of us have to put up with disruptive nutters. Why should you be any different?

exactly

Zillah

Zillah wrote: »

I'd have thought the answer was fairly obvious in the context? He was having an interview to see if he deserves a higher award, demonstrating that he understands ID and why its not science would be quite important. If he had said "it deserves equal air time" or admitted he had no idea what it was I'd imagine that'd be a strong point against him receiving the higher grade.


Its exactly the sort of question I'd think of asking in an interview setting like that. If he were able to explain what ID was and what the crucial non-scientific flaws were I'd be impressed.


If they were considering introducing ID in any variety, why the hell would they be polling students in these sort of interviews?

Hopefully this is the reason he was asking the question - to see if the student asking for a higher grade had read more the class notes or was just a chancer.

Disclaimer: NUI, Galway is my nourishing mother.

Red Hand

Doesn't surprise me at all that the student hadn't heard of it. The University examiner was merely trying to seperate the grain from the chaff, as any interviewer would do. What doesn't appear on an exam isn't worth knowing to most people in Second or Third level education in this country. It's an exam focused rather than education focused system.

I saw there in a paper today that Trinity College was ranked at 223 on a league table carried out by Webometrics Ranking of World Universities. UCC came in at 229, UCD at 403, DCU at 425, UL at 557 and NUIG at the bottom of Irish Universities at 724. See www.webometrics.net.

It was a bit of a surprise, considering that the British Times Higher Education Supplement (THES) put Trinity at 53.

Black Swan

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

I saw there in a paper today that Trinity College was ranked at 223 on a league table carried out by Webometrics Ranking of World Universities. UCC came in at 229, UCD at 403, DCU at 425, UL at 557 and NUIG at the bottom of Irish Universities at 724. See www.webometrics.net.

It was a bit of a surprise, considering that the British Times Higher Education Supplement (THES) put Trinity at 53.

You have to consider the source? Webometrics caters more to online education, rather than to research and traditional higher ed institutions? And after taking a few online classes, I believe there are many limitations for this educational medium in its present state. They used an online class management system called Blackboard, and classes were mostly textbook, PowerPoint, and test driven, with little or no interaction (or imagination, for that matter). Someone creative with curriculum and online web development expertise needs to work on this.

adamd164

The actual address is http://www.webometrics.info/

I'm pleased to see my own UCC in ahead of UCD and not far behind Trinity.

Overheal

i wonder if the point behind the question wasnt to see how involved they were in their field of study. I would expect them to at least know what Intelligent Design refers to.

Standman

Overheal wrote: »

i wonder if the point behind the question wasnt to see how involved they were in their field of study. I would expect them to at least know what Intelligent Design refers to.

All we can do is speculate but after thinking about it I reckon the only reasonable point to the question would be to figure out if the student would put his personal beliefs over science. I suppose that could be relevant to whether you are worthy of a better mark. For any other reason I don't really think it would be relevant or fair.

Red Hand

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

You have to consider the source? Webometrics caters more to online education, rather than to research and traditional higher ed institutions? And after taking a few online classes, I believe there are many limitations for this educational medium in its present state. They used an online class management system called Blackboard, and classes were mostly textbook, PowerPoint, and test driven, with little or no interaction (or imagination, for that matter). Someone creative with curriculum and online web development expertise needs to work on this.

Well, many courses would involve powerpoint presentations and would be test driven in real life, at least in most technical subjects relating to the sciences and computors-there's not much difference there?

How would you make the transmitting of information, that you must learn off to pass a test, more interesting?

You cannot get away from tests either...like it or not, they are the only way of measuring in most courses whether someone is competant enough to earn a qualification.

Black Swan

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

How would you make the transmitting of information, that you must learn off to pass a test, more interesting?

Well, I'm no web-based curriculum developer, but one way that might make otherwise boring material interesting would be to employ gaming theory and techniques (e.g., learn more about statistics by simulating a trip to Las Vegas and playing the odds at blackjack or the wheel? Role play, 2D and 3D animations, and multiplay between students online could be used, with levels of play too, as you advance through the statistical material)? Other highly creative interactive simulations could be used, depending upon the discipline to be learned? Gosh, it would beat memorizing line after line of facts and formulas by rote! To cite Richard Clark at USC, understanding and the ability to remember the material will be enhanced if metacognitive learning techniques are used, instead of relying on rote memory.

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

You cannot get away from tests either...like it or not, they are the only way of measuring in most courses whether someone is competant enough to earn a qualification.

Well, tests can be either/or/and quantitative and qualitative. In the issue raised by the OP, was not the interview question about ID a qualitative test to assess if the candidate should be considered for a higher level?

Red Hand

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Well, I'm no web-based curriculum developer, but one way that might make otherwise boring material interesting would be to employ gaming theory and techniques (e.g., learn more about statistics by simulating a trip to Las Vegas and playing the odds at blackjack or the wheel? Role play, 2D and 3D animations, and multiplay between students online could be used, with levels of play too, as you advance through the statistical material)? Other highly creative interactive simulations could be used, depending upon the discipline to be learned? Gosh, it would beat memorizing line after line of facts and formulas by rote! To cite Richard Clark at USC, understanding and the ability to remember the material will be enhanced if metacognitive learning techniques are used, instead of relying on rote memory.

Mmmmm, but won't that cost money? Would you not think that if every new theory or information nuggest would need a seperate game/metaphor to aid memory, then this would be cost prohibitive? I mean, one of the reasons that people might partake in online education is that it might be the cheaper option available to them (financially cheaper or cheaper timewise eg able to do their online study after work)? This would add to the cost, both in terms of time and in terms of the final bill that a student will have to pay at the end of the day?

Would you not think that giving each student a short standard course in mnemonics might be better and more cost effective, eg the Mind Palace technique of Ricci?

Well, tests can be either/or/and quantitative and qualitative. In the issue raised by the OP, was not the interview question about ID a qualitative test to assess if the candidate should be considered for a higher level?

It was still a test!:p

It may have been a bit unfair, though. It's like asking him/her about another unsound, scatterbrain theory and there have been many in the last few thousand years! How many students, science or otherwise, would be able to explain other foolish ideas like spontaneous generation if asked in an interview? Hmmmm? Would you think that was fair?

Black Swan

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Mmmmm, but won't that cost money? Would you not think that if every new theory or information nuggest would need a seperate game/metaphor to aid memory, then this would be cost prohibitive?

What's more expensive? A cheap, poorly designed curriculum that may be soon forgotten after the test, or something that costs a bit more to develop and may have more lasting effects?

As to the ID question asked by the prof, the value lies in observing the student's thought processes in terms of handling something that may not agree with his discipline's theoretical, empirical, or practical perspectives, especially if (s)he is applying for a higher grade?