ARV or RSU?

metman

Just thinking about the setup of the new RSU. This is a good opportunity for the GS to leap forward in terms of tactical ability to back up frontline officers on the ground, if done right. Without getting into opsec, what kind of uniform should RSU officers have operationally and what should their role be? Purely firearms intervention or an available resource to deploy to local jobs as they see fit? Is it envisaged that the unit will be a mini ERU with similar tactical gear or will it be the Irish equivalent to ARV crews as we have here in the UK?

Below are some images of armed police here, both CO19 and TFG, for comparison purposes:


CO19 with a Trojan Dog on a training ex.


CO19 officers on training ex doing an armed challenge.


CO19 with Trojan Dog unit.


City Police Tactical Firearms Group (TFG) in tactical uniform


City TFG operational kit (CO19 wore berets originally but dispensed with them in favour of baseball caps)


City TFG on an armed checkpoint

FGR

I'm under the impression that the Regional Support Units are being required to wear standard uniform until called upon. I'd also be aware that once called that they'll change into armour similar to the ERU or of the ARV units posted by yourself.

Having these units is a positive step and can only lead to a superior response by Gardai in the future.

metman

But as an operational copper what do you want these lads to do? If you're out on a friday night shift, do you want RSU to give you a dig out if you're short on numbers and you've a fight kicking off outside the local kebab shop?

I'd like my ARV crew to help out, but on a London borough as a response officer you expect very little personal assistance from firearms officers with local jobs. They do not get involved but will occasionally turn out to urgent assistance jobs. As policy CO19 do not make arrests, they 'detain' pending arrival of local units.

On the other hand, outside of London Armed Response Vehicle crews not only get involved in local jobs, they will make arrests in the absence of local units. They are fully integrated into local policing and, per a mate of mine in Thames Valley, race response units to poach the better prisoners from good jobs, handing over paperwork to locals.

Personally I prefer the latter model. As a divisional officer I'd rather roving ARVs carried their weight and got stuck in occasionally and helped out. Yep they have a specialist role to perform, but no reason why these units can't assist locals in the downtime between firearms jobs.

CLADA

If RSU's have firearms secured in the vehicle as is the plan then I would be all in favour of them supporting local units in public order situations etc..

If it's a case that they are armed (as in carrying a sidearm) then I would not expect them to get involved.
Weapon retention, if you know what I mean?

metman

Why not? I understand what you mean when you say weapon retention, but its done every day of the week on PSNI's ground, and its done here outside of London. So what's the issue (see my edited post below)?

CLADA

metman wrote: »

Why not? I understand what you mean when you say weapon retention, but its done every day of the week on PSNI's ground, and its done here outside of London. So what's the issue (see my edited post below)?

Here's what could happen:

RSU unit arrives at your pub/chipper row to assist local unit, during the course of a struggle armed officer is disarmed and weapon is turned on unarmed colleagues.

In the same situation in the north the weapon would be turned on armed officers who would be in a position to defend themselves.

It's not done in London, Why?

P.S Can't read your edited post

metman

RSU members won't patrol single crewed, no more than armed officers here patrol alone. So worst case scenario the weapon is wrestled from the officer, so what's his armed partner doing?

How would a PSNI response unit be any different from an RSU crew or ARV crew in these circumstances?

In London its policy that armed officers don't get involved in local jobs purely to maintain an armed capability at all times. Not on account of risk to personnel from getting involved in friday night roll arounds. I personally don't think that's a useful policy when outside of London (in the counties) armed officers get involved in local jobs. They work with local officers, are on the local channel and put up for the better jobs.

Similarly in the North officers conduct routine policing armed. Yes you need to be mindful of your firearm, of course you do....but at the present time as an 'unarmed' officer I need to be mindful of my CS/Taser, same as a Guard needs to be mindful of his/her asp.

Clada why should armed officers, especially those that may have their firearms locked in a gunsafe, be exempt from assisting local officers at peak periods?

FGR

I can see the point Clada is making. At least in the North if said individual was able to take hold of an officer's firearm then the other officers would be able to counter that whilst waiting for further assistance. In the case of the republic there would be only one other armed guard whilst waiting for DDU/SDU and/or further armed units to arrive. This isn't good outside of the cities as the nearest DDU could be a fifteen minute drive away.

With the ever increasing size of AGS I'm expecting that problem to be alleviated in the future with the presence of more armed patrols. In the all however I'm in favour of Metman's suggestions. Why should such a unit have the privalegdge of making the detections yet handing the paper to the local uniform unit?

The few examples I've been caught with have been exceptionally frustrating.

I'd understand if they're not on the list for taking routine calls from Command and Control; but if they make a detection or are first to arrive on scene then surely they can take precedence and work with the paper.

metman

Is it the case that a high proportion of Gardai simply will not carry firearms and abhor the idea of any role that involves firearms?

TheNog

I would rather see them give a helping but only if they are unarmed i.e. weapons locked in the car. In the city there is plenty of back-up for uniform units compared to the country units so I'd imagine the ARU in the city could stand off where they country based ARU could give a hand.

I would also prefer to see them detain and hand over suspects so they can avoid the paperwork. God only knows this job throws enough paperwork our way and the ARU needs to be readily available. Sometimes I struggle to get out in the car when detailed for the amount of paper I get.

I would rather see an investigation having a slightly difficult start than the ARU being tied up at the station doing a bloody file when they get an urgent call.

eroo

Hopefully they will learn a thing or two from CO19's ARV teething problems back when they were PT17,early 90's.Otherwise,progress will be quite some time away..

Victor

Maybe I have it wrong, but don't PSNI officers have a cable connecting their pistol to their belt?

Shield

Victor wrote: »

Maybe I have it wrong, but don't PSNI officers have a cable connecting their pistol to their belt?

We do!

eroo

Btw,I always wondered why GS didn't follow the same route they took with CAB.CAB have a profiler in every Region,I think?Well why didn't GS just make these RSU teams part of the ERU,with the end result being 20+ detectives from the ERU in each region?Have them trained exactly the same as current ERU methods.That way you could have not only a dedicated armed response but teams that could also execute high risk warrants etc.They would also be able to respond much quicker to siege situ,as well as providing armed support during anti-criminal/subversive operations.Although,if they were based on ERU roster,they wouldn't be available 24/7.

yayamark

isnt that what the rsu will be/achieve?

TheNog

metman wrote: »

Is it the case that a high proportion of Gardai simply will not carry firearms and abhor the idea of any role that involves firearms?

eroo wrote: »

Btw,I always wondered why GS didn't follow the same route they took with CAB.CAB have a profiler in every Region,I think?Well why didn't GS just make these RSU teams part of the ERU,with the end result being 20+ detectives from the ERU in each region?Have them trained exactly the same as current ERU methods.That way you could have not only a dedicated armed response but teams that could also execute high risk warrants etc.They would also be able to respond much quicker to siege situ,as well as providing armed support during anti-criminal/subversive operations.Although,if they were based on ERU roster,they wouldn't be available 24/7.

CAB was pre-Inspectorate, pre-the Garda who was shot in Crumlinlast year and pre-widespread use of automatic weapons, grenades and pipe bpmbs

eroo

TheNog wrote: »

CAB was pre-Inspectorate, pre-the Garda who was shot in Crumlinlast year and pre-widespread use of automatic weapons, grenades and pipe bpmbs

Sorry,I don't see your point!:o

TheNog

Ah, just read your post properly and I now see your point. I thought you were saying why didn't AGS rolled out ARU at the same time as CAB as opposed to what you did say was why don;t they roll out ARU the same way as CAB before it.

My bad

eroo

TheNog wrote: »

Ah, just read your post properly and I now see your point. I thought you were saying why didn't AGS rolled out ARU at the same time as CAB as opposed to what you did say was why don;t they roll out ARU the same way as CAB before it.

My bad

No bothers!