Discussion of Travellers - Best Way Forward?

Sully

I really dont want a thread baching any group of people, so before I close it, is there any further purpose to this thread besides saying all this ****e on the internet and bashing travellers?

Im not part of this so called "PC Brigade" and id love to know where I "jump in" and get politically correct. Its illegal to discriminate. Some terms you simply cant use on Boards, some cant be used when describing specific groups. Its a rule I didnt create, but I will enforce. Generalisation such as "All travellers are thieving bastards" (not a direct quote) and such remarks are NOT welcome. I (and thousands of others) understand peoples frustrations. Some of us have had bad experiences. Others hate groups of travellers parking on the side of the road as its an eye soar, or watever. We understand, but we can do sweet **** all about it. Calling them names over the internet and ranting and raving about it wont do sweet **** all either. I pass two halting sites daily and many others during the week and only some of them I look at in disgust for the state of the place.

Anyway, just clarifiying the whole "PC" ****e being pipped on here. Cop the **** on will ye? Thanks.

longshanks

Cabaal wrote: »

Hang on their, my family ran a pub and shop for years and we had awful trouble anytime travellers came to town and took over the local car park and made an awful mess....however there are about two traveller familys that setup shop just outside the town and they don't bother anyone.

They still have there vans and there dogs but they keep the place tidy and infact they;ve even helped out setting and watering plants near where they live, anyone that tells me that these people deserve to be treated as criminals unless there';s actual proof that they've done anything wrong deserves a kick up the arse.

boll ox, you've seen two traveller families clean the area surrounding them and that means they are all worthwhile, contributing members of society?
bit of a generalisation there, (from the very fella who doesn't generalise) wouldn't you think?

Sully wrote: »

I really dont want a thread baching any group of people, so before I close it, is there any further purpose to this thread besides saying all this ****e on the internet and bashing travellers?

Im not part of this so called "PC Brigade" and id love to know where I "jump in" and get politically correct. Its illegal to discriminate. Some terms you simply cant use on Boards, some cant be used when describing specific groups. Its a rule I didnt create, but I will enforce. Generalisation such as "All travellers are thieving bastards" (not a direct quote) and such remarks are NOT welcome. I (and thousands of others) understand peoples frustrations. Some of us have had bad experiences. Others hate groups of travellers parking on the side of the road as its an eye soar, or watever. We understand, but we can do sweet **** all about it. Calling them names over the internet and ranting and raving about it wont do sweet **** all either. I pass two halting sites daily and many others during the week and only some of them I look at in disgust for the state of the place.

Anyway, just clarifiying the whole "PC" ****e being pipped on here. Cop the **** on will ye? Thanks.

sully, its a topic thats gathering a lot of comment and interest. these are discussion boards, aren't they? and the very nature of conversation is that it evolve and change over time.
why then would you lock it? just leave it be, it'll run its course

Sully

longshanks wrote: »

sully, its a topic thats gathering a lot of comment and interest. these are discussion boards, aren't they? and the very nature of conversation is that it evolve and change over time.
why then would you lock it? just leave it be, it'll run its course

Sorry shanks, but a discussion board doesnt give you 100% freedom to say what you want. There are somethings that wont be accepted and will be closed. Im prepared to give it the chance but I think iv summed it up in the previous post.

longshanks

Sully wrote: »

Sorry shanks

shanks?? shanks???? jesus wept

Freddie59

Sully wrote: »

I really dont want a thread baching any group of people, so before I close it, is there any further purpose to this thread besides saying all this ****e on the internet and bashing travellers?

Im not part of this so called "PC Brigade" and id love to know where I "jump in" and get politically correct. Its illegal to discriminate. Some terms you simply cant use on Boards, some cant be used when describing specific groups. Its a rule I didnt create, but I will enforce. Generalisation such as "All travellers are thieving bastards" (not a direct quote) and such remarks are NOT welcome. I (and thousands of others) understand peoples frustrations. Some of us have had bad experiences. Others hate groups of travellers parking on the side of the road as its an eye soar, or watever. We understand, but we can do sweet **** all about it. Calling them names over the internet and ranting and raving about it wont do sweet **** all either. I pass two halting sites daily and many others during the week and only some of them I look at in disgust for the state of the place.

Anyway, just clarifiying the whole "PC" ****e being pipped on here. Cop the **** on will ye? Thanks.

Sully, you have to accept that there are people here who have a diverse opinion to yours. As long as people here are defending travellers you seem to have no problem with it. But when people point out the realities - FROM EXPERIENCE - you threaten to close the thread again. It's ridiculous.

The majority posting here are representative of the views of mainstream society. And, much as you would prefer it to be the opposite, it can't be. While I agree that the name calling is intense and we would be better off without it, you must again understand that this is borne from frustration and experience - FIRST HAND.

You very obviously have little or experience of travellers but are letting your own personal beliefs (maybe even generalisation:rolleyes:) cloud you moderation of the topic.

Folks, it this topic is left open by all means give examples of traveller "behaviour" but ease up on the derogatory terms. Unfortunately, in this PC world, it is the only way the majority opinion can be heard.

Sully

Freddie59 wrote: »

Sully, you have to accept that there are people here who have a diverse opinion to yours. As long as people here are defending travellers you seem to have no problem with it. But when people point out the realities - FROM EXPERIENCE - you threaten to close the thread again. It's ridiculous.

And you have to accept Freddie that we take everyone opinions and we do not try to censor opinions. However, there are site and forum policys that will be inforced REGARDLESS of peoples opinions. You can argue and people will defend - such is life and thats how a debate works. You have to accept yourself Freddie that not everybody has the same opinion to you. I dont mind people ranting about a group causing trouble in such and such a location but when it turns into a widespread "Lets bitch about ALL the travellers as they are ALL theiving scumbags and filthy ****ers who need to be exterminated with a flame thrower, shower or using the Hitler method. Ya boy, **** travellers!" then the line is croseed. Some people would prefer there was no bitching AT ALL about travellers - but such is life, there are groups of travellers that DO cause harm and EVERBODY knows it. HOWEVER, generalisation WILL NOT be accepted NOR WILL any DEATH THREATS. Thats the reality which you fail to see. Its ridiculous. Just get over it and discuss civily and fairly.

The majority posting here are representative of the views of mainstream society. And, much as you would prefer it to be the opposite, it can't be. While I agree that the name calling is intense and we would be better off without it, you must again understand that this is borne from frustration and experience - FIRST HAND.

You must have had a tough life, those travellers must have given you a real hard time then eh? Im fully aware its considered a problem in todays society but site policy is not to permit discrminiation, making slured remarks, death threats and the like. If you cant converse civily and fairly - dont at all.

You very obviously have little or experience of travellers but are letting your own personal beliefs (maybe even generalisation:rolleyes:) cloud you moderation of the topic.

Myself and my family have had PLENTY of dealings with travellers over the years. Settled ones also. I have heard the stories from others who have had experience also. From guards, to residents to people living miles away from travellers that have came across them either selling carpets or trying to rob them blind. However, during the course of those conversations we discussed it fairly and civil and agreed that the whole traveller society is NOT bad. There may be parts, but its not fair to generalise (:rolleyes:) and therefore I will inforce the rules as set by my "superiors" (ha).

Folks, it this topic is left open by all means give examples of traveller "behaviour" but ease up on the derogatory terms. Unfortunately, in this PC world, it is the only way the majority opinion can be heard.

PC World eh. Funny chap you are Freddie

Iv explained in detail the story with these threads. You can shout, winge, protest and shout tibet all you like - the board rules (Boards.ie) will be inforced in the interest of fairness to everyone. Such rules do not say you cant have such a discussion, but it has to be fair and civil without the stupid remarks, terms and death threats.

Freddie59

Sully, I have already replied to you - in a very civil way - the reason people act as they do. I have indeed have had a bad experience with travellers, but what incenses me - and many others - at the positive discrimination in their favour.

People have gone to extremes to vent their anger at the current situation, which cannot be slienced or moderated away. Glad to see you noticed the PC comment.

I would suggest that you either ban all discussion on travellers (censorship) or allow reasonable debate to continue (freedom of speech). By all means issue infractions and ban people where it appears to be the case that they are breaking the foum guidelines.

So before you censor close it give it some thought.

But at the very least try to maintain some decorum and discretion while allowing the discussion to continue. It's the civil thing to do Sully.;)

And BTW I can't find anywhere on this thread that I posted something suggesting many of the things you accuse me of. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me?

Sully

Freddie59 wrote: »

Sully, I have already replied to you - in a very civil way - the reason people act as they do. I have indeed have had a bad experience with travellers, but what incenses me - and many others - at the positive discrimination in their favour.

Yes yes I know all that.

People have gone to extremes to vent their anger at the current situation, which cannot be slienced or moderated away. Glad to see you noticed the PC comment.

I will "silence" or moderate any post which breaks the Board rules. It can land boards in a lot of trouble or get very bad press as a result of allowing such conversations slide.

I would suggest that you either ban all discussion on travellers (censorship) or allow reasonable debate to continue (freedom of speech). By all means issue infractions and ban people where it appears to be the case that they are breaking the foum guidelines.

Its hardly cenosrship if we banned all such discussions. It would only come to that if people couldnt discuss it civily and fairly and we would be left with no choice. It happened to the Soccer forum, and Web Hosting Chat is not permitted. Its not censorship - its banning such discussion because people cant seem to discuss it without having a hissy fit, throwing slurs around the place, making wide generlisations, suggesting different ways to kill them etc etc.

Resnonable debate is the key. So far, its been a struggle.

So before you censor close it give it some thought.

Hence this conversation.

But at the very least try to maintain some decorum and discretion while allowing the discussion to continue. It's the civil thing to do Sully.;)

I could say the very same thing to you Freddie, and to everyone else here.

And BTW I can't find anywhere on this thread that I posted something suggesting many of the things you accuse me of. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me?

Like?

Freddie59

Sully wrote: »

Like?

I'm asking YOU Sully.:p

Sully

Right since the Waterford Forum has turned into a mess over the last few weeks, myself and Fajitas! are going to move all Feedback and Complaints to here. Feedback is Feedback and ill take it no problem. I wont let the forum be derailed by complaints. People are more then obliged to take it to PM or post in Feedback.

The last traveller thread got closed due to a number of complaints about the way travellers were being referred to, constantly being hammered with abuse and even death threats such as exterminating them with flamethrowers. The second one is/was left open only if it could remain a civil and fair discussion without the ****e. The above posts were the discussion on that issue which were in the thread. I think myself and Freddie agree on the best way forward with the topic and the issue has been dealt with, but the posts are being moved here to keep the topic on track.

Xavi6

Ok being a complete outsider (a Dub living in Australia) I'm gonna give my unbiased 2 cents on the situation.

To the people complaining about censorship, there is a line. That line is crossed when comments about 'ethnically cleansing' a particular group are thrown out there amongst other derogatory terms. There is nothing to stop you making your point against the travelling community without resorting to direct insults.

Boards.ie is a private message board so therefore the freedom of speech rules do not apply. If a moderator chooses to edit/delete a post in accordance with the rules of the board then he/she is well within their rights to do so. The same rules are applied in every forum here so you aren't being singled out. It's the way things are and if you don't like it then tough, go somewhere else.

I wouldn't be tolerating this sort of backseat modding either -

Freddie59 wrote: »

I would suggest that you either ban all discussion on travellers (censorship) or allow reasonable debate to continue (freedom of speech). By all means issue infractions and ban people where it appears to be the case that they are breaking the foum guidelines.

Also, I am far from being one of the PC brigade before that gets thrown at me.

Hagar

Sully I think you're taking a fair line on this. Reasonable debate to be allowed but crass discriminatory generalisations can't be allowed.

If it were me I would issue a warning on thread as to what was acceptable and what was not. This is not a censorship issue. We are talking about libelling a significant section of Irish of society. It doesn't matter if the comments made are "commonly believed" to be accurate that doesn't make them 100% factually / provably correct so they are legally wrong and that constitutes libel. Boards can't be put in that position. Part of our jobs as mods is to protect Boards Ltd from irresponsible users.

If posters refuse to take reasonable on-thread moderation take no prisoners, start handing out bans. Anyone publicly dissents gets the same.

My 2c.

Sully,

Firstly, I commend you for your patience! You have been putting up with a lot of **** recently and I would have just started banning left, right and centre had this been one of my forums.

However, perhaps you are trying a bit to be 'all things to all men' and attempting to keep everyone in the forum happy. This will work until a point but the waterford posters have to realise that they are subject to the same rules as the rest of us and that there is no free speech on boards.ie.

I think a period of 'tough love' is called for from you and Fajitas!

Ponster

Deleted User wrote: »

However, perhaps you are trying a bit to be 'all things to all men' and attempting to keep everyone in the forum happy. This will work until a point but the waterford posters have to realise that they are subject to the same rules as the rest of us and that there is no free speech on boards.ie.

I think a period of 'tough love' is called for from you and Fajitas!

+1

Sparks

Damn straight. All these lily-livered eejits aren't looking for you to be fair - they're looking for you to agree with them and squash without debate anyone who disagrees.
Time for the banstick to be taken out and used to excess, to be honest. Try the Russian model and give them a Stalin and let them long for the days when you were being reasonable

Sparks

*reads full thread*
*reads other threads by same people*

Feck's sake.
Sully, ban the lot of them. Stormfront can take 'em if they want to natter away like that.

mikedragon32

sully wrote:

before I close it, is there any further purpose to this thread besides saying all this ****e on the internet and bashing travellers?

I don't think anyone has given you a coherent argument as to why you should keep the thread open. If anything, it looks like those who would favour keeping the thread open just replied with further traveller bashing.

As for some individuals' remarks about censorship, I fail to see what part of privately owned website they can't understand. This place is NOT a democracy. Just because they want to air opinion doesn't mean that they can do it here. This is nothing to do with being PC. This is about what is right for the website, right for the community within the website and what might be considered illegal.

I'm in agreement with Sparks. Wave your banning stick, lock the thread and move on. If folks don't like how you moderate, they can always vote you out at the next Moderator elections.

kaimera

Clowns.
put them in the bin

Waa waa waa, I had a bad experience with some travellers so now I want to exterminate them all.

Grow the **** up.

Hobbes

You know probably the best solution in all this is just to have a traveller forum and have it run by travellers and a responsible mod. That way with issues people can get a more informed response on how to address it.

Sparks

That, or actually sit them the feck down, tape their eyes open, and force them to read up on the stanford prison experiment.

Hagar

Hobbes wrote: »

You know probably the best solution in all this is just to have a traveller forum and have it run by travellers and a responsible mod. That way with issues people can get a more informed response on how to address it.

You know that's a very good suggestion. It might just work.

Cabaal

few people in this thread need a banning imho, just shame I didn't get mod access to the forum in question

6th

Slagging off a group of people based on experiences with a few (whether personal experience or not) is wrong and shouldnt be tolerated. Swap the word travellers for blacks, jews, french or anythig else and its easy to see how wrong it is.

Sully, you're a very good mod but I think you should start banning. Sure you'll get complaints but you're getting them anyway.

BlaasForRafa

Sparks wrote: »

*reads full thread*
*reads other threads by same people*

Feck's sake.
Sully, ban the lot of them. Stormfront can take 'em if they want to natter away like that.

Complaints have been made about sweeping generalisations being made on threads so I'd like to get this clear, anyone who has anything critical to say about travellers or their ways is automatically a fascist is that correct?

Mr. Presentable

Hobbes wrote: »

You know probably the best solution in all this is just to have a traveller forum and have it run by travellers and a responsible mod. That way with issues people can get a more informed response on how to address it.

Yeah but would they stay in it. Pretty soon they'd be camped at the entrance to After Hours, or along the banks of the Ladies Lounge

Sparks

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Complaints have been made about sweeping generalisations being made on threads so I'd like to get this clear, anyone who has anything critical to say about travellers or their ways is automatically a fascist is that correct?

No, just you. :rolleyes:

billy the squid

Freddie59 wrote: »

The majority posting here are representative of the views of mainstream society. And, much as you would prefer it to be the opposite, it can't be. While I agree that the name calling is intense and we would be better off without it, you must again understand that this is borne from frustration and experience - FIRST HAND.

Frustration is no excuse for slurs and incitement, which, using such slurs is. If these are present the thread should be locked and the people who use them should be banned. were it up to me they would be sitebanned for breaches of the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act.

You very obviously have little or experience of travellers but are letting your own personal beliefs (maybe even generalisation:rolleyes:) cloud you moderation of the topic.

Folks, it this topic is left open by all means give examples of traveller "behaviour" but ease up on the derogatory terms. Unfortunately, in this PC world, it is the only way the majority opinion can be heard.

Quoting personal experience is not evidence that an entire group of people are scum. It is a mere personal experience, nothing more, nothing less.

And in the PC wold (your words not mine) using slurs make you look like an idiot, which is an even better reason not to use them.

Freddie59

billy the squid wrote: »

Frustration is no excuse for slurs and incitement, which, using such slurs is. If these are present the thread should be locked and the people who use them should be banned. were it up to me they would be sitebanned for breaches of the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act.




Quoting personal experience is not evidence that an entire group of people are scum. It is a mere personal experience, nothing more, nothing less.

And in the PC wold (your words not mine) using slurs make you look like an idiot, which is an even better reason not to use them.

You're obviously unfamiliar with the thread content - just like the mod. At no point did I express any of those sentiments. Yes I quoted personal experience - as did others. I'm merely lookig for some even-handed treatment from the mod. And an explanation for the ban - which hasn't been forthcoming.

Incitement to Hatred. For people who were venting their very obvious anger at the hands of their OWN personal experiences?

Sully

I am aware of the thread content Freddie, iv deleted several posts within it for making slurs or inappropriate remarks towards travellers. Sensible discussion is whats needed, not making slurs or stupid comments (even mocking them or PC people).

You brought up the traveller debate again and started mocking the PC people. Your post is visible, you broke the charter and always seem to ignore it - so out you go. Iv explained this already in the infraction (mods can see it) message and in your feedback topic which accuses me of banning you for expressing an opinion.

If you cant debate or talk civily - dont at all.

billy the squid

@freddie 59

I actually am familliar with the thread, not that my comment was in relation to it, I am referring to this thread at the moment.

Here is what you said

While I agree that the name calling is intense and we would be better off without it, you must again understand that this is borne from frustration and experience - FIRST HAND.

You are justifying the use of slurs by claiming frustration by people who have had negative experience(s) with travellers "first hand"

There is no justification for the use of slurs. You can call me PC brigade if you like, I personally don't give a flying fcuk if you do. but incitement is incitement, regardless of the "reason."

And an explanation for the ban - which hasn't been forthcoming.

Regardless of your other breaches of the charter, you were involved in back-seat modding, telling a moderator how they should run the board in their board, when what you should have done was take your issue to PM, feedback or helpdesk. This ban has been viewed and endorsed by an Smod,

Incitement to Hatred. For people who were venting their very obvious anger at the hands of their OWN personal experiences?

There is a difference between venting ones frustration or anger and using racial/ethnic slurs in a thread. Whether you find the use of these slurs acceptable or not, the fact of the matter is that by using them one would be guilty of incitement.

billy the squid

And Freddie, your claim that I accused you of using such slurs is a blatant lie. I accused you of justifying them, which I think I have proven you have.

I guess I should just sit here and wait for the withdrawal of that lie from you.