BMW 320d or Lexus 220d ?????

alpina

I own one & good friend bought the other so have driven both;

IMO Lexus is a better looking car, maybe because they are not as common/popular as the BMW. Lexus lacks the over space of the BMW especially noticeable for rear passengers and clubs/shopping. To drive I like both however would have to hand it to the BMW on outright punch & driveability & unfortunately no auto box in the 220d

320d;
174bhp~143 top speed~0-60 7.9~Co2 128~Fr. legroom 1120mm R.LR 900 Boot 460L

220d;
175bhp~134 top speed~0-60 8.9~Co2 169~Fr.legroom 1090mm R.LR 825 Boot 378L

Gandalf23

Thanks very much lads ... some excellent comments and suggestions.

@ alpina ... good stuff man, thanks for that. As someone who has driven both you would definitely go with the BMW then?

@pburns ... why is the 220d engine considered inferior to the 320d? And why would you avoid the Lexus like the plague? Is it just because of the depreciation? And why do you think depreciation will be higher than the BMW?

@E92 ... is it the same engine in the 320d and the 520d?

Thanks again lads ... I really appreciate the help and advice.

Cyrus

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Thanks very much lads ... some excellent comments and suggestions.

@ alpina ... good stuff man, thanks for that. As someone who has driven both you would definitely go with the BMW then?

@pburns ... why is the 220d engine considered inferior to the 320d? And why would you avoid the Lexus like the plague? Is it just because of the depreciation? And why do you think depreciation will be higher than the BMW?

@E92 ... is it the same engine in the 320d and the 520d?

Thanks again lads ... I really appreciate the help and advice.

the answer to the engines inferiority is in the post just above

320d;
174bhp~143 top speed~0-60 7.9~Co2 128

220d;
175bhp~134 top speed~0-60 8.9~Co2 169

finbarrk

I asked a similar question in January,

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055210681&highlight=bmw+320d+lexusis220d&page=3

I still didn't buy either because I'm having difficulty selling my own car.
The motor tax proposals in that thread have since changed.

Gandalf23

finbarrk wrote: »

I asked a similar question in January,

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055210681&highlight=bmw+320d+lexusis220d&page=3

I still didn't buy either because I'm having difficulty selling my own car.
The motor tax proposals in that thread have since changed.

Thanks ... just read the entire thread. Looks like the BMW comes out well on top ... man, this is a hard decision ... I must have changed my mind about 100 times over the last few days!

Cyrus

look, the bmw is basically a better car, but if you prefer the lexus you will be happier with it so go for the one you want, neither are a bad car

Gandalf23

Cyrus wrote: »

look, the bmw is basically a better car, but if you prefer the lexus you will be happier with it so go for the one you want, neither are a bad car

Yeah, you are right.

I'm not making the decision for a few months yet, so I'll keep listening to opinions and do another test drive or two. Like a few people said, its a nice decision to be able to make

Cyrus

good idea, see if you can blag either for a weekend or extended test drive

ive read that the is250 auto is much better than the manual is220

Gandalf23

Cyrus wrote: »

good idea, see if you can blag either for a weekend or extended test drive

ive read that the is250 auto is much better than the manual is220

Good idea ... I might do that! Do garages let you have extended test drives?

CyberGhost

This should answer your question

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=44_ko9nLQO8

Fifth's Gear's IS220d review, and they are comparing it to 320d.

Cyrus

bit of an odd comparison that doesnt feature the other car

JHMEG

pburns wrote: »

Isn't the engine in the IS220D regarded as hugely inferior to the Bimmer unit?

According to that review it's "torquier and more refined"...

copacetic

been looking at this too cyrus, my final opinion was to wait and see what happens with tax, facelift for 3er and second hand market for a few months.

For what it is worth I thought the IS was better value for money and is much better looking and better specd. Will hold it's value better as is more reliable and less common, bmw was much better to drive and engine was much nicer imo.

With the facelift coming in October for 3er would be a concern how it will hit values.

copacetic

JHMEG wrote: »

According to that review it's "torquier and more refined"...

every other review I have ever seen has said the gearing and engine on the IS was poor compared to audi, bmw or merc.

Cyrus

according to every other review its not and its slower and pollutes more, and makes the rear view mirror shake etc etc

pburns

Gandalf23 wrote: »

@pburns ... why is the 220d engine considered inferior to the 320d? And why would you avoid the Lexus like the plague? Is it just because of the depreciation? And why do you think depreciation will be higher than the BMW?

The question as to why the IS220d engine is inferior to the BMW has been answered I think. On pure stats alone the Lexus is very much 2nd best.

As to depreciation - Just say you pay the monies for a nice '07 IS220. It will forever be taxed based on CC. That's €827:eek: a year in comparison, say, to a 08 320d which will be around €290:) per annum. For a s/h buyer a few years down the road, that'll make a BIG difference in my book and is gonna have an undoubted knock-on in re-sale. Especially as, even now, the Lexus is not exactly the default choice...

Of course if you can use this as an effective bargaining tool so much the better.

Gandalf23

copacetic wrote: »

been looking at this too cyrus, my final opinion was to wait and see what happens with tax, facelift for 3er and second hand market for a few months.

For what it is worth I thought the IS was better value for money and is much better looking and better specd. Will hold it's value better as is more reliable and less common, bmw was much better to drive and engine was much nicer imo.

With the facelift coming in October for 3er would be a concern how it will hit values.

BMW salesman told me yesterday that the Otober 3series facelift would be "very minor" and purely cosmetic. Is this likely to effect 2nd hand values?

copacetic

Gandalf23 wrote: »

BMW salesman told me yesterday that the Otober 3series facelift would be "very minor" and purely cosmetic. Is this likely to effect 2nd hand values?

well, it will look significantly different from front and back. they are sorting out the silly front grille
and the funny looking lights. it will look like coupe from front and have the nicer notch lights at rear.
either way, i'm not sure how anyone could call in very minor.

Cyrus

Gandalf23 wrote: »

BMW salesman told me yesterday that the Otober 3series facelift would be "very minor" and purely cosmetic. Is this likely to effect 2nd hand values?

yep facelifts always command a little more, id hold out for one

alpina

Hype pictures aside, the facelift is meant to be minor, as far as I know within the wolrdcarfans article it states that the mule/test car has exaggerated mouldings so would not expect a much beefier front end, there will be changes but think on the subtle side. All this said however, buyers are fickle and with €30k+ who can blame them, anything you buy before the fall is going to be considered last model before you even get your plates and this is proven in the 'edition' spec, BMW need to shift a sh*t load now & quick.
If it's the engine you love & intend keeping who cares & edition spec is great value, if you change every couple of years, stay away until '09

Happy hunting/coin tossing;)

copacetic

alpina wrote: »

Hype pictures aside, the facelift is meant to be minor, as far as I know within the wolrdcarfans article it states that the mule/test car has exaggerated mouldings so would not expect a much beefier front end, there will be changes but think on the subtle side. All this said however, buyers are fickle and with €30k+ who can blame them, anything you buy before the fall is going to be considered last model before you even get your plates and this is proven in the 'edition' spec, BMW need to shift a sh*t load now & quick.
If it's the engine you love & intend keeping who cares & edition spec is great value, if you change every couple of years, stay away until '09

Happy hunting/coin tossing;)

hardly 'hype' pictures, these are the same/similar to hundreds of others online. a grille design changing to look like the coupe rather that the current saloon is hardly subtle, neither is a totally new rear light cluster.

cancan

I have to say, if you are going to spend 50K on one of these two, there are far more interesting cars available for the same money.

Like ~50k for a poverty spec diesel is not exactly going to set your heart on fire, no matter what the badge on the front says.

Why not buy something second hand and interesting for ~30K, and use the 20K you save for fuel and tax bills, and take some foreign trips, and generally live a little.

Cyrus

cancan wrote: »

I have to say, if you are going to spend 50K on one of these two, there are far more interesting cars available for the same money.

Like ~50k for a poverty spec diesel is not exactly going to set your heart on fire, no matter what the badge on the front says.

Why not buy something second hand and interesting for ~30K, and use the 20K you save for fuel and tax bills, and take some foreign trips, and generally live a little.

i would say i agree with the man with the swatch

Victor_M

The OP has already said he has a budget of 25-27K, he seems to have narrowed his choice down to 2 cars, if we were to get into a debate regarding the multitude of alternatives we all think he could get for 27K this would become a very long thread.

Also he drives 50K a year so a solid practical reasonably frugal car is what he needs and he's narrowed it down to 2 (IMO) good options.

Victor_M

copacetic wrote: »

well, it will look significantly different from front and back. they are sorting out the silly front grille
and the funny looking lights. it will look like coupe from front and have the nicer notch lights at rear.
either way, i'm not sure how anyone could call in very minor.

Nice job on the facelift front and back.

JHMEG

copacetic wrote: »

every other review I have ever seen has said the gearing and engine on the IS was poor compared to audi, bmw or merc.

MSN says "the IS220d excels as a comfortable, refined cruiser.", yahoo says "The interior is an object lesson in how to make complex systems intuitive to access and operate. Its here that Lexus scores its most decisive victory over the BMW 3 Series.", AutoExpress says "It is, however, one of the most accomplished and refined oil-burners around. Exceptional refinement and a mature character create a superb long-distance cruiser". The general consensus is that the Lexus will hold its value better than any of the German rivals.

Cyrus

and where is this general consensus on resale value from?

Auto car - noticeably rattly at idle and even at sustained motorway speeds there’s a quiet but constant thrum in the cabin

tiscali - Here though, there's a gruff rumble as the machine shrugs itself to life. Out on the motorway, it's quiet and refined enough but when you want overtaking power in mid-range, this is no smooth operator, being certainly less sweet than BMW's 320d or - I'm afraid, Lexus - Honda's brilliant 2.2-litre Accord.

4car- So while the IS diesel could afford to lose a little to the competition in terms of performance or even fuel economy, the one thing we'd all expect is that this would be the outright class leader when it comes to refinement.
The engine lets you know that it is a diesel
It isn't. Under ideal conditions - ie light throttle at a motorway cruise in top gear - it's fine, standing comparison with competitors while not necessarily besting them. But under load while accelerating from stop or negotiating a steep incline, this engine lets you know it's a diesel, with a booming roar and a little vibration through the pedal

autozine - Can it give BMW 320d a good fight? The answer is again no. First to take the responsibility is the diesel engine. While the spec looks good (aluminum block, 16 valves, 1800 bar piezo-electronic third-generation common-rail injection and variable vane turbocharger), and the ultimate power is strong, the engine is rather weak below 2000 rpm. There is a slight turbo lag that rarely associate with a premium diesel engine today. Ditto the booming noise at hard work and the vibration through the pedals. You won't see this in BMW, Mercedes and Audi's diesel engine, but you will see exactly the same things at a Toyota Avensis and Corolla Verso diesel, because they actually share the same engine. This is undoubtedly a disappointment to a brand traditionally so strong at refinement.On the road, the IS220d doesn't feel as quick as BMW 320d. It doesn't handle or ride as good too. The over-light steering is still detached from the road. However, the notorious VDIM is found less intrusive in this car, probably because the IS220d offers less grip and corners less hard than the IS350, so it needs to push much harder to get the electronic aids intervening. Anyway, this is the first ever diesel Lexus. Maybe we should not expect too much from it.

cancan

Victor_M wrote: »

The OP has already said he has a budget of 25-27K, he seems to have narrowed his choice down to 2 cars, if we were to get into a debate regarding the multitude of alternatives we all think he could get for 27K this would become a very long thread.

Also he drives 50K a year so a solid practical reasonably frugal car is what he needs and he's narrowed it down to 2 (IMO) good options.

I can't see any 06/07 320d's available for the budget in question, besides a few battered old yokes (05's) with high miles, which will cost an arm and two legs to keep runing with the mileages he is looking for.

This fits the budget or something like this, and will be a lot cheaper to run in the long run...

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Peugeot/406/2.2-S/1054901/

Gandalf23

Yeah, I've thought about my choice for a good long while now, and I'm definitely getting either the BMW or the Lexus 220d.

My original budget was about €25k but I might even extend this and get the new BMW 320d or the 318i in January 2009. I still think there will be value around then, and I am a cash buyer so I should be able to get a decent deal. Joe Duffy have told me they will beat any other garage on price ... competition is hot at the moment.

I was originally going for 2nd hand because I thought there would be bargains to be had (and I think there are ... I know I'll get a 2006 320d for about €25k in September, and similar price for an 06 Lexus), but I'm worried about the facelifted 3series in October. I think the facelifted model looks better, and its bound to have an effect on current models.

Thanks for all the excellent opinions and advice guys ... looks like the BMW is the best option ... just need to decide whether to buy 2nd hand now or wait till Jan 09 and get the new model.

Gandalf23

cancan wrote: »

I can't see any 06/07 320d's available for the budget in question, besides a few battered old yokes (05's) with high miles, which will cost an arm and two legs to keep runing with the mileages he is looking for.

This fits the budget or something like this, and will be a lot cheaper to run in the long run...

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Peugeot/406/2.2-S/1054901/

I saw an 06 320d with 65,000km yesterday priced at €30k. The salesman told me I could drive it away if I put €26,500 on his desk. He was dying to sell the car, and would have come down more in price if I had pushed hard.

I know that salesman has about 75 2nd hand 3series coming in in July. Joe Duffy has about 200.

There will be value to be had lads, and you'll do very well for your €25,000 I bet.