12kbps - is this a record?

SkepticOne

Karsini wrote: »

UPC previously said they weren't available in my area but I had received a letter through the door last week about a network upgrade so I tried again this evening. They said that the upgrade would be complete after Christmas and I could get broadband then. So I might just choose O2 Clear 30 day for the moment and cancel it when UPC is available.

The question is, will I be forced to keep the phone line due to contracts? I signed up for BT Broadband and Talk option 2 and they can't provide the service I signed up for - in which case I should theoretically be able to cancel it without penalty but who knows.

Test whatever wireless options are available now then cancel the BT contract as soon as you can. It seems pointless to persist with 16.8kbs dialup which is what people were connecting with 15 years ago. If you signed up for broadband with BT and they are not supplying broadband then you can't be bound to the contract.

Fogmatic

Complaint letter (attached) received registered post by Eircom Oct 23rd; the 10 working days (to allow them to respond) ends Friday (7th).
Meanwhile, back on the home front, latest fault report saga began in August (phone line dead about half the time, and audibly crackly when live). Eircom finally sent engineers out here this last Wednesday. (Work delayed by Eircom assuring UTV they'd 'fixed it at the exchange', and then probably by lack of safe weather). Engineers did their best given the infrastructure, ie connection speed so far has been steady at the blistering 12kbps maximum I can get these days.

Will Eircom do something by Friday? Will I have a phone line tomorrow? Or will the rain get in again? Or horses feel in need of a scratch on that pole over there? (Cue soap music, eg the Archers.....)

I also had Eircom out today, the engineer checked the line and said the joint is legit, there are two pairs in the cable so I am on my own line. He said the infrastructure in the area is too old to guarantee anything other than voice calls and that he'd try to put me on another path to the exchange but doesn't think it'll work.

I'd say I'll just have to cancel the line and wait for NTL, assuming their cabling isn't archaic too!

Fogmatic

Thunderous silence from Eircom Towers.....dialup speed down to 9.6kbps today (and rain expected tomorrow).....

Fogmatic

Contact from Eircom re complaint letter;
Zilch.
Am getting a sense of just how much of a threat they find Comreg. Still, onward & upward. After Comreg, next step; whatever it takes.....

The procedure is to exhaust Eircom's complaint process first, so looked at their Customer Care Code of Practice for Complaint Handling (found it too difficult to link to here because of Eircom's session timeout system; it's navigable to with a bit of watching grass grow at www.eircom.ie).
It includes 'If you are not happy with the Customer Care Executive or the way in which they handle your complaint you can ask to have the matter escalated to a supervisor or manager in the appropriate area. (Ask who? How? Where? Would that be 'area' in a geographical sense, business department sense or what?)

No matter; just went to their online Complaint, sorry - Customer Care form, with its max. 400 characters (well, it does add up to 3 whole text messages!). (sorry no link again; see above). Submitted the following today (with phone no. & email address in the required fields);

'Re my letter of complaint of October 22nd, delivered to Customer Care on October 23rd; contrary to your Customer Care code of practice for Complaint Handling, I've had no acknowledgement or reference number, let alone been kept informed. Would you please escalate the complaint to a supervisor or manager in the appropriate area? Thank you. ( Name & address).'
( About 3 characters to spare!).

I was told 'Your complaint is logged' (I think it's the same form for day-to-day line fault reports).
On the page linking to the email form, we're told to include our account number. It's not compulsory when you get to the form, but I'm hoping that no longer having an Eircom account doesn't somehow scupper the process (it shouldn't, given how much the years of line rental add up to). I also didn't head the original letter 'Formal letter of complaint', or suggest a precise remedy. Oh well, we shall see.....

Sponge Bob

If you have no acknowledgement of a complaint within 10 working days you may go straight to Comreg to complain about that .

info@comreg.ie

Fogmatic

Thanks Sponge Bob - I didn't know that, and will have a look.

I have at least had responses to Tuesday's email through the Eircom site; some automated, but one asking for details of the complaint; so I replied today attaching the original letter and offering any further info they want.

Something really doesn't want me to get online properly. I tried calling NTL again last week and they said the upgrade was complete and broadband is available. So the installer came out today - he could get a downstream signal on 426.25MHz but no upstream. He said it might be a temporary problem and to try reordering it next week. If this fails I'll seriously have to consider breaking my lease and moving out - I need it for my line of work.

I already tried O2 mobile "broadband" and cancelled it within the cooling off period. It was nigh on impossible to use it around this time of the night, it took 10-15 attempts to connect and when it did it was unusably slow.

Fogmatic: it's really looking like a city broadband blackspot as you said

croo

@Fogmatic
I went around in circles for days trying to get them to "escalate" to a supervisor and there by exhaust their complaints process. They never did and when I emailed all my details to ComReg after that I never even got a reply.

It was then that I realized there was only one way to handle Eircom ... I canceled my lines & everything else and got a 3G modem. It's not broadband but it's better than dialup- and a lot cheaper.

The only way to improve on eircom is if everyone stops paying them over the odds for a crap service and they go out of business. My hopes now are all that the credit crunch will do what we as consumers couldn't - they have a lot of debt if it gets called in then I doubt they could refinance. Of course there is always the risk that our idiot government will deem them a vital service and we all end up paying ... again.

Fogmatic

Well, croo, one of my daydreams of late has been of a nationwide line-rental strike by the people stuck with non-functional dialup (with plenty of press coverage of course)...

You did the right thing in your case. It's a bit different for me though. My local fixed-wireless/point-to-point broadband scheme recently became available here and I've just availed of it (and I can connect my year-old desktop & laptop to the internet at last!). But the mast has to be moved a bit further away tomorrow (something about a landowner), and I might lose the signal & be stuck with dialup again (fingers well crossed here!)
I always wanted to keep the dialup as backup anyway (even though only my old computer can use it), and we use the landline here as well as our mobiles. Most of our call charges used to be ringing the UK, and that's free with our UTV phone/dialup bundle.

Since emailing Eircom about their lack of response, it's gone roughly like this;

Eircom (Customer Care Managent); Further to your email....., if you can forward on the details of your complaint so I can have this investigated for you.

Self; Not sure what details you want, but WordPad document of original complaint letter attached. Would you also like the registered post delivery date/modem logs of dialup speeds/my previous Eircom account number? (My ISP is now UTV).

Eircom; as I can't view attachments in this department, if you can forward on the details to your letter so I can have this investigated for you.

Self; Original letter copied below (in body of email).

Eircom; As your calls are with another service provider Eircom have no access to your account details. If you can contact your service provider to have this investigated for you. Sorry for any inconvenience caused to you.

Self; (misunderstanding); Which account details do you need me to ask my ISP for/look up?

Eircom; As your calls are... (identical to previous email).

Self; May have been some confusion, as same answer as before; what details exactly do you need? For instance, (etc etc)

Phone call from Eircom; a rushed statement sounding like the email. 'I haven't seen the original letter', etc.
Eventually got firm clarification that a formal complaint has to be through my ISP, the same as with routine fault reports, and that there wasn't any confusion between the two things (and just about managing to keep things calm!)

I had asked UTV originally if it was okay to write directly to Eircom, and their helpline person thought it was. I expect he was as confused as I was (there doesn't seem to be anything about it on Eircom's website). I rang UTV again, and got someone who was able to confirm I had to complain through UTV.
So back to square one; I'm sending them the details (modem logs and all, as their people seem to actually understand comms).

Sponge Bob

You complain to whoever you rent your line off , not your ISP

anyway your problem is lack of functional internet access contrary to the EU USO Directive 2002 and refusal by eircom to follow the complaints procedure too.

Read this post on how and where to escalate

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57986863&postcount=19

Fogmatic

So Eircom told me wrong?
I'd just managed to get back into cool and calm mode, too!

bealtine

Fogmatic wrote: »

So Eircom told me wrong?

Well what do you think?

cgarvey

Fogmatic wrote: »

So Eircom told me wrong?

Read the post. Complain to who ever you pay line rental to. Some older customers of UTV might still be paying line rental to eircom (a bill from eircom for line rental, and a bill from UTV for calls), but most, if not all, now pay UTV for rental and calls (1 bill).

If you're the latter then there's no need, and not point, in you contacting eircom, as you're not a customer of theirs. All telcos, UTV, have a formal complaints procedure.

10 working days is the general guideline ComReg use before investigating consumer issues, with the prerequisite that you have followed the complaints procedure.

Fogmatic

Thanks for clarifying that, cgarvey. There's so much ambiguity and obfuscation out there that I still wasn't sure. (The line rental is paid via my UTV bill).

cgarvey

Fogmatic wrote: »

There's so much ambiguity and obfuscation out there

Amen to that! And that's just lodging the complaint/fault. It gets worse as both sides blame each other for lack of development, and the consumer is left being the only one to follow it up, or care.

Fogmatic

Yes, I'm fully prepared for all that malarkey (we used to be a small building contracter in London!).
I might be dependant on the dialup again, as my fixed-wireless broadband signal is currently between masts, and might not exist from the new one.
There hasn't been much time for the complaint lately, but I've just managed to get UTV's code of practice printed out, after the page was 'not available - try again later' for a few days.

Fogmatic

Formal complaint Mk 2 now off by registered post (to the correct people this time).

It seems rather long (well, at least I got it into 2 sides of 1 sheet!). But with reserves
of patience getting low, I wanted to avoid what I used to get with Eircom (like, very slowly talking me through things that were the first things I'd checked).
It'll take a few days; I'm told letters from R.O.I to the North often go via the UK mainland (the post seems to move in mysterious ways!).

'Submissions elsewhere' refers to my proposed petition/letter to TD/open letter and/or article in newspapers/maybe the whole lot, gathering my many allies round here. (Whenever the conversation in this area turns to bad phone lines, everyone seems to say 'Tell me about it!'). Hope to do it in March (once back from a week or 2 away).
The enclosures mentioned are attached here (I would have sent them more modem log copies, but it's a bit fiddly, as my scanner only works with the new computer, and the printer only with this old one!).



UTV Internet name
Customer Care Department address blah blah
Ormeau Road landline
Belfast BT7 1EB mobile
email

January 26th 2009
Formal letter of complaint
Re UTVip Lite account ref. ******, tel. 074 97****;

Our phone line (installed in 1992) has never been good, but it’s deteriorated so that my dialup connection speed varies between 12 kilobits per second and 4.8kbps (with 300 bits per second recorded during some failed connection attempts). (The effect can easily be seen in its full glory by temporarily setting a modem to such speeds and visiting some websites). The ‘functional internet access’ that Ofcom set, back in 2005, is a minimum 28.8 kilobits per second, and ‘telephone quality’ is 8kbps minimum.
The line’s never sounded very clear, and goes dead every so often, which has made us miss some important phone calls. Even when we can hear ok, the other parties have always had frequent trouble hearing us. It’s worse in rainy weather.
The effects of the line quality can easily be seen by temporarily setting a modem to a speed between 12kbps to 4.8kbps, and visiting some websites. My computer that was built in 2000 can access the internet on a good day, but with frequent dropped connections and timeouts.

Before reporting a fault, we always try several phones in turn directly into the wall socket, but it’s never made any difference.
Following the fault reports, Eircom’s engineers do all in their power to restore us to normal. But, given the line they have to work with, ‘normal’ is hardly the right word. They once fixed an extra problem by installing a new wall socket, but we still have the ongoing problems, which must be outside the house.
This is in no way an isolated case. Other customers have since had phones connected from this end of the line, and they have the same problems as I do.
There are also many other people connected from the Ardara exchange with bad line quality, including on other lines from the exchange, and in Ardara itself (as will be detailed in submissions elsewhere).
This area’s unfit phone lines are just one example of a nationwide problem (and this downturn, as the budget speech said, is no time to neglect the infrastructure needed to do business).

About a year ago I spent around €2,200 on a new desktop computer and laptop, but they’re unusable because they can’t connect to the internet at these speeds. Even word-processing would need software downloaded, and/or online software registration. I can’t access the updates or other support provided by the manufacturer and Microsoft, and there’s no coverage here for any type of broadband.
The new computers were able to connect to the internet just once, at a moment when the line enabled a speed of 16kbps. But they haven’t been able to connect since.
As is now the norm, the new computers don’t include a dialup modem, so need an external one. That small complication over my old computer must be the reason for being able to connect (just) at 16kbps, but not at 12 or less. I’ve double-checked with communications experts that it’s not Windows Vista that’s unable to cope with the slow speed. None of my settings etc have been changed since that one-time connection, and all modem queries are equally successful; the only difference is the speed possible through this phone line. I expect the problem will grow as people buy new computers that they can’t use.

The bad line has also cost me extra on UTV bills. Though I’ve been doing fewer and fewer internet tasks as they’ve become more difficult, each one has taken longer and longer, resulting in internet charges extra to the subscription (as is clear from cross-referencing my modem logs and UTV statements). I signed up to UTVip Lite in late 2004, and was well within the 30 hours until going over by 7 hours in late 2006, 12 hours in 2007 and 42 hours in 2008 (all rounded down to the nearest hour). That makes 61 extra hours paid for, totalling about €150 if at peak times (working out the peak/offpeak proportion would be fiddly, but maybe you could easily pull it out).

Just to avoid any confusion, it may help to bear in mind that my area code differs from the exchange’s. My physical line is from the Ardara exchange (code 074 95), but my phone number starts with 074 97. I believe this has confused Eircom themselves. When they had a broadband trigger scheme for the Ardara exchange, their website blocked me from voting for it because of my phone number. They also announced (and believed for years) that I could get ADSL. When I entered my phone number in their website’s broadband availability checker, it just said ‘Donegal is enabled for broadband’ (with links to companies to order it from). Eircom were unable to explain by which route this broadband was available (their computer giving my broadband exchange as Letterkenny, 60km away); or which exchange their BB availability checker had decided I was connected from.
I logged a crackly, on-and-off phone connection last August 31st, and it was still the same on 9th September when I rang for news. I was told the fault had been closed, as Eircom said they’d fixed it at the exchange (so I had to report it again as a ‘new’ fault).

I enclose copies of; 1) a rough chart showing the speeds recorded (via the old computer) over the last 8 months, 2) a section of modem log from the new computer’s failed connection attempts (with a brief 300 bits per second connection, showing that the line’s the problem); and 3) a typical example printed from the modem logs of the old computer (I can’t save or print them all, as the attempted & dropped connections often generate several pages of log per minute).

I need functional internet access, and a refund offer for the time and money this problem has cost me (via a line-rental ‘holiday’ would be fine if that’s easiest).

To save taking this complaint further, I would like a response to this letter within 10 working days of receiving it.
Thank you.
Yours sincerely,

Fogmatic

Sorry - format got muddled at top of the letter!

I'm sorry to hear you're still having problems. Eircom tried that with me too, the whole "we fixed it at the exchange" thing - which personally I think is just a fob off (like Sky saying they'll boost the signal :rolleyes:).

I ended up cancelling my line (having to pay over €200 in connection charges and rental). But luckily for me NTL became available in my area so I signed up with them and things have been great so far. I felt your pain once so I really really hope you can get something sorted soon!

Fogmatic

Thanks Karsini.
Glad to hear at least you got sorted out. It sounds as if Eircom's problems in your case were only mental, not physical?

I wasn't very hopeful when I mistakenly sent the complaint to Eircom, but I'm more hopeful of UTV at least trying; they seem to understand comms better, and might have more clout with their subcontractor than a lone customer complaining directly to Eircom.

Meanwhile, I'm looking into that publicity thing. Rather than getting the locals here to complain in a scattered way to their various ISPs, I think doing it as a body would have more impact (and be easier). I'm looking into ways & means (will get advice from a friend who writes for the Donegal Democrat, for instance).

Fogmatic

Since last posting, life's been too busy for campaigning etc, but not too busy to keep up with the demands of the formal complaint (i.e. waiting, punctuated occasionally by an email).

My man at UTV does seem to be taking the thing seriously and doing what he can. It looks to him like a split line (aka carrier/pairgain). He's been trying to verify that with Eircom for 3 months, but can't seem to get a yeah or nay from them.
A few days ago I sent him details he wanted of my external modem. I might as well have another go at connecting with it and my laptop to the internet from someone else's phone line, just in case Eircom still think it might be somebody else's fault that I can't from home (though I don't know if modem logs would show that it's a different line?) I tried it and failed some time ago, but have since learned how (thanks to help in another thread).

Light has been shed on the confusion with my phone number, in the 1st page or so of a different thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055467329&page=2
(That thread's locked, probably because I let it get somewhat off-topic later!)

Why Eircom didn't seem to be aware of Eircom's method of assigning numbers, is another question.

Fogmatic

Result! Well, kind of.....

A technical glitch held things up till recently, but I've now accepted a goodwill gesture from UTV of 3 months line rental credit. So UTV seem to be taking the thing seriously (if they're hoping to recoup it from Eircom in turn, I wish them luck!)

Meanwhile, a bit of info gleaned from one of our frequent visitors (the engineers, that is). I asked him if we were on a split line (as seemed probable to everyone including UTV). He said it's not a split line, but our local signal's transmitted from an Eircom mast, which was already in place when we moved here in 1992. It's known as a 'rural solution', I gather. (I wonder if contention affects that system? It might explain why our line's got worse over the years, with more neighbours joining up).
He didn't have time to elaborate, but whoever rang later to check that the line was back to 'normal', said 'No, you wouldn't get broadband over a radio link'.
So, at a stroke, the queries over the years were red herrings. Let alone Eircom insisting I could get ADSL.
It was bad enough when it was only Eircom's left hand not knowing what its right one's doing, but it's looking more and more like a Hindu god.
Hmmm... (idea for a new Eircom logo.....)

My man at UTV has confirmed there's no way the dialup speed on my line can be improved. He's asked Eircom whether they have any plans for improving the infrastructure round here, and awaits a reply (meanwhile, another neighbour has joined the fixed wireless broadband scheme I'm on, so there goes another Eircom customer probably!).

Blueface beckons, and I'll probably be saying bye bye to Eircom too. On the other hand, I don't know yet if the formal complaint could continue after the line's cancelled, and I'd like to take it as far as I can (the 3-month line rental holiday gives a bit of breathing space, anyway).

Sponge Bob

It is a "Rurtel" the 'exchange' is a low grade box on a mast somewhere not too far away .

SkepticOne

Fogmatic wrote: »

Blueface beckons, and I'll probably be saying bye bye to Eircom too. On the other hand, I don't know yet if the formal complaint could continue after the line's cancelled, and I'd like to take it as far as I can (the 3-month line rental holiday gives a bit of breathing space, anyway).

Are you still on the wireless broadband?

Fogmatic

Yes (still on wireless broadband); hence I've been looking into Blueface, with a view to jettisoning the landline.
I'm pleased with the BB. My deal's advertised as up to 2mb down & .5 up. It's usually 1mb-1.5 down, and more up; 2.03 today. (I don't know why, but I'm not complaining!).

lucernarian

Congrats with the broadband, I hope you enjoy it!

I've seen one of those wireless-fed exchanges on a pole on Tory Island. Never have I seen such decrepit plant to serve the island either. I saw a former kerry spring water bottle serving as a cover for the pair joins of a former junction box.

The base station was Falcarragh IIRC.

Fogmatic

Well, I haven't knowingly seen our 'exchange' here, but somehow your description doesn't seem far-fetched.

I certainly am enjoying the broadband (it's a bit like not realising how ill you were until you're better!)
And I'm lucky to have wireless as the sole BB option, rather than mobile.