"GLuas" to be unveiled for Galway

The economics were very different at the end of the 19th century, Just about every town on the UK with a population over 40,000 or so had a tramway of some sort. It's easy to see why when you consider the alternative forms of transport available at the time and the state of the roads.

If oil prices continue rising the way they are now, busses will have the streets almost to themselves!

the_abused_dog

Galway is a small city. We should stagger working hours efficiently. Therefore spreading out the rush hour into not so rushed hours.
We should teach people how to use roundabouts safely. This would go along way to improve on flow. Cautious drivers make roudabouts unusable in rush hour.
Parents should be banned from dropping kids off to schools in the city centre. They should be dropped off in school bus depots on the outskirts of galway. This bus service should be free and regular.
Students should be persuaded from driving to college and should be allowed to avail of the bus/train for free.

pointofnoreturn

the_abused_dog wrote: »

Galway is a small city. We should stagger working hours efficiently. Therefore spreading out the rush hour into not so rushed hours.
We should teach people how to use roundabouts safely. This would go along way to improve on flow. Cautious drivers make roudabouts unusable in rush hour.
Parents should be banned from dropping kids off to schools in the city centre. They should be dropped off in school bus depots on the outskirts of galway. This bus service should be free and regular.
Students should be persuaded from driving to college and should be allowed to avail of the bus/train for free.

A very good idea, but implementing it into a society that loves their car! is yet another challenge, however with this rise in oil and down turn in the economy we should soon see a change in lifestyle, however public transport will have to be ready and will to serve as the only alternative! then that could become the bases of a change in attitude to public transport as in the way main land Europe

Nostradamus

RedPlanet wrote: »

The British operated a tram system in Galway.
Galway was a lot smaller both in area and in population then.

It was a local private company and it was a horse drawn single tram line from the station to Salthill. The service was canceled after the last horse died.

It was hardly London Transport on the Corrib.

afatbollix

if its going to cost 200million and only 12,000 people a day to pay for its self i cant beleave that a company wont pay it.... it could be the next m50 bridge...

Victor

the_abused_dog wrote: »

Galway is a small city. We should stagger working hours efficiently. Therefore spreading out the rush hour into not so rushed hours. We should teach people how to use roundabouts safely. This would go along way to improve on flow. Cautious drivers make roudabouts unusable in rush hour. Parents should be banned from dropping kids off to schools in the city centre. They should be dropped off in school bus depots on the outskirts of galway. This bus service should be free and regular. Students should be persuaded from driving to college and should be allowed to avail of the bus/train for free.

How about making the workers use public transport?

Sponge Bob

Victor wrote: »

How about making the workers use public transport?

How about first bypassing Galway.

That takes lots of traffic out of town so you can now easily build the Gluas on the empty streets.

The best of both worlds for Galway that is . Spanking!

Amtmann

City Councillors in Galway unanimously endorsed the GLUAS plan last Wednesday.

Three minute news clip here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0910/drivetime_av.html?2420966,null,209

BluntGuy

I am in favour of all public transport schemes that improve lives for local people.

But I am not sure this is a cost-effective investment. I'm certainally not against it, and if they could deliver all that they promise for 200 million then it would be fantastic.

But I'm not sure that will be the case...

Anyway, ALL our cities need sorting out badly when it comes to public transport. Waterford and Cork are nothing short of disgraces.

But should we employ light rail in ALL our cities?

Chris_533976

I really really doubt the Gluas will be built.

1) Its not needed in a city the size of Galway. Build the outer ring road and put HALF the money into a decent bus system and you'll be laughing.
2) No matter what they say, they have VASTLY underestimated the amount it will cost. They're saying €300million, the Dublin ones cost €700 million a few years ago.
3) No way will GLUAS be funded in the current climate. Especially since Cork and Limerick (at least) would want one of these too.

I was hoping they'd come to their senses and veto this nonsense, but it wont get built in any case, I HOPE. That said, they should reserve alignments for 50 years into the future, say.

pointofnoreturn

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I really really doubt the Gluas will be built.

1) Its not needed in a city the size of Galway. Build the outer ring road and put HALF the money into a decent bus system and you'll be laughing.
2) No matter what they say, they have VASTLY underestimated the amount it will cost. They're saying €300million, the Dublin ones cost €700 million a few years ago.
3) No way will GLUAS be funded in the current climate. Especially since Cork and Limerick (at least) would want one of these too.

I was hoping they'd come to their senses and veto this nonsense, but it wont get built in any case, I HOPE. That said, they should reserve alignments for 50 years into the future, say.

Do you drive?
Because, regardless of the situation now, every city in Ireland needs to build a infrastructure that central Europe has had for decades! it will cost a huge amount of money and that focus must not be profit driven but driven for the reason that we need a country that can build from an infrastructure that we have lacked!

Chris_533976

Yes and I'm the first to complain about Galway and driving, I have to battle my way around this place every day.

Outer Bypass is the first step.

pointofnoreturn

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Yes and I'm the first to complain about Galway and driving, I have to battle my way around this place every day.

Outer Bypass is the first step.

and wouldn't you rather be happy to take a metro into town, not worry about parking, etc... also cheaper

sure this will take most of the cars off the road, and free it up

Amtmann

I am in favour of building it asap. All available data indicates that the population of Ireland will surpass 6 million within 40 years, and perhaps 7 million by the 90's. That might sound far ahead, but a baby born today has quite a good chance of living to see 2100.

If we want the bulk of that new population to live in Dublin and to further unbalance Ireland's spatial equilibrium to a grotesque degree, then do not build the Gluas. If, however, as a nation we want to revivify the West, then build it. It might not be very busy in its early years, but it certainly will be by the 20s if other policies are enacted too.

I'd also like to see a Luas built for Cork: Line A would link CIT with UCC, go down Barack Street and cross the river, proceeding up Shandon Street for starters. Line B could be built from the proposed Dunkettle station, and proceed at some point over the Lee to the new marina development complex before terminating close to Parnell Place, possibly heading up South Mall before meeting Line A somewhere close to Washington Street. Line C could link Douglas and Mahon with the centre.

Just thoughts...but really, why not?

Amtmann

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I really really doubt the Gluas will be built.

1) Its not needed in a city the size of Galway. Build the outer ring road and put HALF the money into a decent bus system and you'll be laughing.
2) No matter what they say, they have VASTLY underestimated the amount it will cost. They're saying €300million, the Dublin ones cost €700 million a few years ago.
3) No way will GLUAS be funded in the current climate. Especially since Cork and Limerick (at least) would want one of these too.

I was hoping they'd come to their senses and veto this nonsense, but it wont get built in any case, I HOPE. That said, they should reserve alignments for 50 years into the future, say.

But who planned the Dublin Luas? They made a haims of the costing and delivery, there's no doubt.

But the Gluas team are a different kettle of fish altogether. They're a think-tank composed of engineers, businessmen (aka 'investors'), Greens (say what you like about Greens, but they are big into sustainable, longterm planning) and NUIG academics (some of whom, presumably, are engineers, planners and social geographers).

On top of that they've evidently done their homework, going so far as to provide two case studies: http://gluas.com/home/will-gluas-work-in-galway/

I'm very hopeful this'll happen, and that if it does it'll have a positive knock-on effect for Cork too.

BluntGuy

Cork is a very difficult case.

I was in the city centre one day and I actually thought about whether they could build a Luas system there and I'm not exactly sure.

If we had the money, I'd say Cork should have an underground subway in the city centre, but alas, Cork is simply far too small to warrant such an investment.

Money should be spent upgrading the disgraceful bus services while a light-rail or similar plan is being created.

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

Cork is a very difficult case.

I was in the city centre one day and I actually thought about whether they could build a Luas system there and I'm not exactly sure.

If we had the money, I'd say Cork should have an underground subway in the city centre, but alas, Cork is simply far too small to warrant such an investment.

Money should be spent upgrading the disgraceful bus services while a light-rail or similar plan is being created.

Are you referring to the hilliness? I've thought about that too; and Lisbon (the city, not the treaty ) comes to mind.

My thinking would be a hugely pedestrianised city centre: Barack Street, North Main Street and Shandon Street would be too narrow to accomodate traffic and a Luas, so I'd dispense with the traffic. It would be a fairly radical plan, but if properly devised, it would work.

pointofnoreturn

Furet wrote: »

But who planned the Dublin Luas? They made a haims of the costing and delivery, there's no doubt.

But the Gluas team are a different kettle of fish altogether. They're a think-tank composed of engineers, businessmen (aka 'investors'), Greens (say what you like about Greens, but they are big into sustainable, longterm planning) and NUIG academics (some of whom, presumably, are engineers, planners and social geographers).

On top of that they've evidently done their homework, going so far as to provide two case studies: http://gluas.com/home/will-gluas-work-in-galway/

I'm very hopeful this'll happen, and that if it does it'll have a positive knock-on effect for Cork too.

The Team looks good, but only one thing is; http://www.trampower.co.uk/ very basic site, and not updated, maybe they did a good job in their position with the Dublin Luas project but shouldn't we also evaluate some of the big names in rail transport in central Europe?

bk

The idea of building LUAS in the smaller cities like Cork and Galway is ridiculous.

BTW I'm from Cork and fully support public transport.

The reality is these cities are just to small and low density to currently support expensive tram systems, specially in the current economic climate. I believe that this is an unnecessary distraction from the real changes that should be made today.

What we should be doing right now is:

1) Vastly increase our investment in the bus service of these cities. The bus service of these cities is truly awful, slow, infrequent and over crowded. An investment of even a fraction of what LUAS would cost would see a massive improvement in the Bus service.

Also control of the bus services needs to be taken out of the hands of Bus Eireann and given over to a Cork, etc. equivalent of Dublin Bus and put under administrative control of the City and County Councils. Work practices need to change radically from the current "sure it will be fine" to a system more like DB.

You need to learn to walk before you can run and I fear that silly talk about a LUAS that wouldn't be built for 30 years will distract from changes which urgently should and can be made today.

2) Of course these cities should plan for LUAS at some future time by now deciding the route, protecting the route, put in place planning designations for high density development along the route, etc.

This is what was done in Dublin with some of the LUAS line route 30 years ago and it is what has been successfully done in Cork along the commuter rail lines.

Sponge Bob

bk wrote: »

The idea of building LUAS in the smaller cities like Cork and Galway is ridiculous.

Yep . Designating corridors for 20 years hence and upping pop densities along them over that time is whats needed now .

spacetweek

Can't believe GLUAS is making more progress than the equivalent for Cork, which is a much larger city.

I've looked at light rail in European cities and trust me, no one is building them in cities with less than about 250,000 people. That seems to be the absolute minimum. According to that logic Cork has a case, but is too low density, so it needs to first protect a route, then densify it, and then build in maybe a decade. Galway has no case really, at least not now. Even if they followed the above like Cork, it would be at least 40 years at their current rate of pop growth before they reach 250k.

If tunneling is needed in Cork to penetrate the centre, that's ok, only short sections would be required anyway. The line wouldn't need to be completely segregated from traffic - a premetro.

Chris_533976

I guess whats good about this is that a group of people have come together to think about it. Its a non runner in my book, but at least its showing a bit of initiative. Perhaps if Cork got off its backside and set up a similar (sensible) think tank then we might get places.

Step one for Galway is to build the bypass.
Step two is to dual Bishop O Donnell Road.

After that we'll see.

bk

spacetweek wrote: »

Can't believe GLUAS is making more progress than the equivalent for Cork, which is a much larger city.

The reality is GLUAS is making no progress at all. It is all talk and bluster, it wont happen.

I believe they are currently updating the Cork Area Strategy Plan at the moment. I assume a future plan for a Cork LUAS will be part of it closer to 2020 and more feasible then.

Chris_533976 wrote:

Perhaps if Cork got off its backside and set up a similar (sensible) think tank then we might get places.

The reality is that both Cork City and County council have been doing this sort of planning for the last 30 years and have been doing it far more effectively then any other council outside the Dublin region.

The Mallow to Midleton Commuter line being built as part of T21 is a result of this and it was planned for 30 years ago.

The Cork CASP plans are considered some of the best in the country and have delivered a relatively excellent road network around Cork and are now looking at commuter rail.

There is still lots to fix in Cork, particularly the bus network, but you really can't accuse them of sitting on their backside.

pointofnoreturn

bk wrote: »

The idea of building LUAS in the smaller cities like Cork and Galway is ridiculous.

BTW I'm from Cork and fully support public transport.

The reality is these cities are just to small and low density to currently support expensive tram systems, specially in the current economic climate. I believe that this is an unnecessary distraction from the real changes that should be made today.

What we should be doing right now is:

1) Vastly increase our investment in the bus service of these cities. The bus service of these cities is truly awful, slow, infrequent and over crowded. An investment of even a fraction of what LUAS would cost would see a massive improvement in the Bus service.

Also control of the bus services needs to be taken out of the hands of Bus Eireann and given over to a Cork, etc. equivalent of Dublin Bus and put under administrative control of the City and County Councils. Work practices need to change radically from the current "sure it will be fine" to a system more like DB.

You need to learn to walk before you can run and I fear that silly talk about a LUAS that wouldn't be built for 30 years will distract from changes which urgently should and can be made today.

2) Of course these cities should plan for LUAS at some future time by now deciding the route, protecting the route, put in place planning designations for high density development along the route, etc.

This is what was done in Dublin with some of the LUAS line route 30 years ago and it is what has been successfully done in Cork along the commuter rail lines.

We need this so we build less roads, become less reliant on transport the is not environmental friendly, also you will find less cars will be on the roads too.

Furet wrote:

If we want the bulk of that new population to live in Dublin and to further unbalance Ireland's spatial equilibrium to a grotesque degree, then do not build the Gluas. If, however, as a nation we want to revivify the West, then build it. It might not be very busy in its early years, but it certainly will be by the 20s if other policies are enacted too.

This is a big thing that we need to address and having a central European planned rail system,with high speed rail links between cities will encourage people to live across the country and still be with in less then 2 hours trip from one city to the next, the use of cars in this country has to get dramatically less!

bk

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

We need this so we build less roads, become less reliant on transport the is not environmental friendly, also you will find less cars will be on the roads too.

pointofnoreturn, I care about the environment, I don't own a car and cycle to work every day, out of choice, not cost.

Yet I'm also a realist and just building things because it might be good for the environment, not matter what the cost is a stupid idea. If we really want to help the environment and not just talk about it, then we need to focus on the plans which are realistic and have other benefits, other then just for the environment.

Also you are parroting the same stupid argument made by many amateur environmentalists about building less roads.

Let me ask you this, what countries are the most environmentally friendly?

It is Germany and the Scandinavian countries, now tell me which countries have the best road networks, yep that is right, Germany and the Scandinavian countries.

You see it isn't one or the other, they normally go hand in hand. A high quality road network decreases congestion and therefore decreases pollution (no sitting in a car stuck in traffic).

Not building roads isn't going to stop anyone from owning and using a car. What will get people to move over is building public transport that is faster, more convenient and cheaper then car and goes to and from where lots of people want to.

BTW Trams aren't as clean as they could be, remember the electricity they use comes from a coal or peat burning power plant. Still lot better then lots of separate cars, but not as good as it could be.

pointofnoreturn

bk wrote: »

pointofnoreturn, I care about the environment, I don't own a car and cycle to work every day, out of choice, not cost.

Yet I'm also a realist and just building things because it might be good for the environment, not matter what the cost is a stupid idea. If we really want to help the environment and not just talk about it, then we need to focus on the plans which are realistic and have other benefits, other then just for the environment.

Also you are parroting the same stupid argument made by many amateur environmentalists about building less roads.

Let me ask you this, what countries are the most environmentally friendly?

It is Germany and the Scandinavian countries, now tell me which countries have the best road networks, yep that is right, Germany and the Scandinavian countries.

You see it isn't one or the other, they normally go hand in hand. A high quality road network decreases congestion and therefore decreases pollution (no sitting in a car stuck in traffic).

Not building roads isn't going to stop anyone from owning and using a car. What will get people to move over is building public transport that is faster, more convenient and cheaper then car and goes to and from where lots of people want to.

BTW Trams aren't as clean as they could be, remember the electricity they use comes from a coal or peat burning power plant. Still lot better then lots of separate cars, but not as good as it could be.

yes true, in any case we need both better road and rail infrastructure, like you said high-speed rail transport to interlink Ireland, but i can't see any reason the justifies not building a tram network in Galway, as other people have said here it may not be used so effectively yet, but it will encourage commuters to make better use of public transport, and even our current public transport needs to be improved, nothing runs on time and any bus or train i take doesn't make connections.

Germany and the Scandinavian country's have a good balance, not to forget Switzerland also, even better for keeping connections all on time

It's great that this is getting allot of attention here but i'm wondering if any of it is worth it. i'd like to think that the people being part of the Gluas are reading this.

BluntGuy

There is no denying that 'Gluas' and indeed light-rail systems for all our major cities is a brilliant prospect.

But it ain't gonna happen.

We don't have the money to put into these schemes. Just look at the UK. There are 100s of towns and cities much larger than Galway, and many even larger than Cork. They don't have light rail systems and they probably never will do. Heck, even BELFAST doesn't have any light rail system of any kind (although they're planning one).

I'm not just saying we should copy the UK and only give good public transport to big cities like Dublin, but in all honesty do we really have the money for this?

Chris_533976

bk wrote: »

The reality is GLUAS is making no progress at all. It is all talk and bluster, it wont happen.

I believe they are currently updating the Cork Area Strategy Plan at the moment. I assume a future plan for a Cork LUAS will be part of it closer to 2020 and more feasible then.



The reality is that both Cork City and County council have been doing this sort of planning for the last 30 years and have been doing it far more effectively then any other council outside the Dublin region.

The Mallow to Midleton Commuter line being built as part of T21 is a result of this and it was planned for 30 years ago.

The Cork CASP plans are considered some of the best in the country and have delivered a relatively excellent road network around Cork and are now looking at commuter rail.

There is still lots to fix in Cork, particularly the bus network, but you really can't accuse them of sitting on their backside.

Although CASP is better than some, it still advocated sprawling housing estates that have destroyed Cobh, Carrigtwohill, Crosshaven and a host of satellite towns. They let that lot be built without a second thought for infrastructure or services. Doesnt sound like anything Strategic or a Plan to me.

Also CASP has spawned idiocy of the likes of "We dont want high rise and we dont want urban sprawl either". CASP has resulted in mountains of traffic piling up at Dunkettle every morning without thought to what could be done to prevent it. Apartfrom Midleton railway which will be its own worst enemy because the entire lot is single track when the line to Cobh is twin track. Why they couldnt build dual track to Midleton while they were at it I'll never know. CASP has also almost advocated building 1300 homes in Glanmire without a single service to go with it.

madaboutcars

BluntGuy wrote: »

If we had the money, I'd say Cork should have an underground subway in the city centre, but alas, Cork is simply far too small to warrant such an investment.

Having just come back from Munich, I can safely say that an underground network would be amazing, though it would require German standards of punctuality, cleanliness and frequency to really work.

Unfortunately knowing Ireland the underground stations would probably be extensively vandalised within a week, it wouldn't be safe to use them after about 7 or 8 pm and it would neither be that frequent nor punctual.

Needless to say in Munich the underground stations are spotless, even at night, and I noticed that they start as early as 5 am in the morning, and keep going up to 1 am that night, with a 10 minute frequency that really is a 10 minute frequency.

This country is completely in the dark ages when it comes to infrastructure, the roads are finally getting there, but once we finish developing our extensive motorway network, we really do need to sort out alternatives to the car in urban areas.

If they can do it in Munich, even with a company like BMW being based there, then there's no excuse for us not to do it either, particularly as people do actually manage to use these things when they do exactly what they say on the tin.

How come they're able to have both a great road AND a great public transport network in some parts of Europe, while here we have Greens wanting to lower the speed limits by up to 20% and don't want motorways built yet we don't hear about any public transport improvements that are actually going to happen?

Sponge Bob

Munich has the population of Dublin but in about 1 Fifth the area.

The thing that really impresses me is the S-Bahn network which is more or less 40 years old, built for the Olympics. It goes to all the Navans and Droghedas and Arklows near Munich and is 300 miles long .