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Reserves overseas
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10.5 million in this instance only refers to the cost of pay to RDF. It doesn't take the costs of cadres, rent of buildings, utility bills, dining, vehicle depreciation, diesel, clothing, etc etc etc. which brings the real cost of the RDF way above the 10.5m you quoted.
This figure is only value for money if you provide a service of greater value to the DF, which if you're truly honest with yourselves is not the case. In reality it is the DF that is providing a service to you.
If you look down through the posts I linked you can see that very discussion. The €10.5 million vs €544 million is for pay only and doesn't take into account the cost of training feeding etc for the PDF or RDF. The estimated total cost for RDF ends up at about €17 million.
The RDF provides a number of services - primarily as a contingency where you can immediatly have up to 8000 people who have basic military training ready to support the PDF - securing barracks, depots, bases etc and freeing up well trained permanent troops for 'frontline' duties.
Providing personell for duties - as MacBuster said the PDF is strapped for bodies - I'm not suggesting CIT or prison duties but there are lots of barrack guards, stand-to's and fire pickets that can be done by RDf if we're asked.
Providing a step to PDF - many many good soldiers in the RDF go on to the PDF having seen what military life can be like. A lot of people do not like to go straight in and so join the RDF to see if they like it.
Overseas (oh dear) The bottom line is the PDF has a shortfall in a number of areas, most notably heavy vehicle mechanics and doctors. If the PDF cannot get entice these people themselves they're going to have to look to the RDF.
I don't think anyone is under any illusions of going on 7 day patrols in bandit country but they can be of service in camp repairing vehicles etc. The minister has already said those that go will have training before they deploy so whats the problem? I'll defer to those who have been overseas and I don't in any way mean or intend to insult your service, but how often are large base camps attacked? Yes, you'll get mortars and machine gun fire but the chances that a reservist mechanic will need to pick up a rifle and defend the perimeter against attack are pretty low, are they not? (genuine question)0 -
concussion wrote: »If you look down through the posts I linked you can see that very discussion. The €10.5 million vs €544 million is for pay only and doesn't take into account the cost of training feeding etc for the PDF or RDF. The estimated total cost for RDF ends up at about €17 million.
The RDF provides a number of services - primarily as a contingency where you can immediatly have up to 8000 people who have basic military training ready to support the PDF - securing barracks, depots, bases etc and freeing up well trained permanent troops for 'frontline' duties.
Providing personell for duties - as MacBuster said the PDF is strapped for bodies - I'm not suggesting CIT or prison duties but there are lots of barrack guards, stand-to's and fire pickets that can be done by RDf if we're asked.
Providing a step to PDF - many many good soldiers in the RDF go on to the PDF having seen what military life can be like. A lot of people do not like to go straight in and so join the RDF to see if they like it.
Overseas (oh dear) The bottom line is the PDF has a shortfall in a number of areas, most notably heavy vehicle mechanics and doctors. If the PDF cannot get entice these people themselves they're going to have to look to the RDF.
I don't think anyone is under any illusions of going on 7 day patrols in bandit country but they can be of service in camp repairing vehicles etc. The minister has already said those that go will have training before they deploy so whats the problem? I'll defer to those who have been overseas and I don't in any way mean or intend to insult your service, but how often are large base camps attacked? Yes, you'll get mortars and machine gun fire but the chances that a reservist mechanic will need to pick up a rifle and defend the perimeter against attack are pretty low, are they not? (genuine question)
The days are the Leb are gone but being Groundhog was a daily occurrence and you had everything for the Christians to Amal/Hizbollah attacking positions primarily the SLA, main camps weren’t attacked as much as OP's, which had their daily dose of shelling amongst other unsavoury activities..
Just a point how many Doctors, Mechanics, Nurses or required Professionals are in the RDF, very few if any compared to the likes of the TA..It is simply not a viable option to send the RDF over sea’s as they need infantry primarily and maybe EOD which would definitely not be part of the RDF.0 -
PDF lads,
Ive seen you take quite a few jabs at the current RDF.
Thats your opinion and entitlement. Some of us are very willing and able members of the RDF, we just dont have the training or resources and whatever way you paint it, the problem lies squarley with the govt and DOD.
The sooner the major issues such as job security are tackled the sooner you would have a viable reserve. I can see how you feel the money would be better spent elsewhere but I argue that if the RDF were disbanded tomorrow the shortfall would probably crucify the already horendously shorthanded PDF.
You say that we dont do a huge amount, I argue that again that isnt our fault, we are willing if the training is provided to an acceptable level, but again that is related to job security and the govts willingness to tackle this issue.
If training levels were appropriate there would be no reason why a company size unit of reserves could be mobilised and trained up before being deployed as an infantry company.
Please dont direct your comments and disgust at certain practices at the members here, I concur with comments about acting in disrespectful manners in uniform etc but as regards our training and expertise, we do our best with the limited training we recieve, sure what more can we do?
I totally respect the PDF and have worked alongside them and as part of integrated units and we all got on well. Sure we probably struggled a bit here and there but when those guys saw how willing we were to pull our own weight and to try to punch above it in many cases they were more than willing to point / push us in the right direction. Yeah if some guy was moaning and dragging his feet they have no time for him, but when they see you bite your lip and push yourself to the limit (even though in many cases we were nowhere near as fit as the PDF) that garners a miniscule piece of respect in their eyes.
We work alongside our parent PDF unit and they have been fantastic in giving us a lot of their own SOPs etc which has managed to streamline a lot of tactics and exercises and make them run more smoothly.
I can see where you are coming from and sadly nod my head when I read a lot of your stuff, but theres no need to make us out to be complete wasters at times. I say again, this issue is not down to the individual (well not completely!) but to the higher levels in the chain of command and the govt departments.0 -
The days are the Leb are gone but being Groundhog was a daily occurrence and you had everything for the Christians to Amal/Hizbollah attacking positions primarily the SLA, main camps weren’t attacked as much as OP's, which had their daily dose of shelling amongst other unsavoury activities..
That's what I was thinking all right, thanks.Just a point how many Doctors, Mechanics, Nurses or required Professionals are in the RDF, very few if any compared to the likes of the TA..It is simply not a viable option to send the RDF over sea’s as they need infantry primarily and maybe EOD which would definitely not be part of the RDF.
Nearly every soldier is a trained infantryman first, there is no need to look for riflemen from the RDF. Where the PDF is falling down is in, according to the Minister of Defence, is medical, transport, engineering and communications and information services.
From the Irish Times (my bold)Reserve Defence Force to serve overseas next year
CONOR LALLY
MEMBERS OF the Reserve Defence Force will from next year serve on dangerous overseas missions as part of a major Government drive to overcome a specialist skills shortfall in the Permanent Defence Forces (PDF), The Irish Times has learned.
The plans are likely to be strongly opposed by organisations representing members of the PDF of all ranks.
The Department of Defence and Defence Forces have in the past signalled reservist personnel would one day be deployed on overseas missions. However, until now the proposal remained aspirational with no time frame.
Under plans now being finalised, a small group of reservists will be deployed overseas for six months by the end of next year. They will participate in intense training with full-time members before leaving Ireland.
Their deployment is regarded as a pilot project that will be reviewed before more reservists are sent on other missions.
It is hoped that allowing the overseas deployments of specialists, particularly qualified doctors and paramedics, who are already trained reservists, will address recent difficulties in the recruitment to the PDF of such personnel.
The shortage of specialised personnel has been exacerbated by Ireland's growing commitment to international military operations such as EU battle groups and challenging deployments to Chad and Liberia.
There are about 20 doctors currently serving with the PDF. The official figure should be 47. The financial rewards for doctors in civilian life far exceed those on offer from the military.
The personnel shortfall could be substantially addressed if qualified reservists served overseas.
The Defence Forces has in recent years recruited foreign national doctors for overseas missions. Results have been mixed.
One doctor saw his commission discontinued when it emerged he had a fraud conviction. In another case it was discovered that a doctor working with troops in Liberia did not have the necessary qualifications.
Problems relating to the recruitment of medical doctors are of such concern that a team of Army recruitment officers is to travel to Poland in the coming months to interview doctors who have already applied for posts online.
However, the skills shortage is not confined to the medical field.
The department and military authorities are hopeful that heavy vehicle mechanics among the ranks of the reserve force will also sign up for overseas tours.
The now concluded mission to Liberia proved very challenging in respect of the Army's fleet of vehicles. A complete refit of the vehicles was necessary on return to Ireland, a process which put limited resources under strain both at home and on continuing overseas missions. The current mission to Chad poses similar challenges.
The acquisition of a new fleet of vehicles, including armoured personnel carriers, has also generally added to the workload for mechanics and fitters.
The use of reservists is growing internationally. In the Irish context it is likely to be met with opposition from PDfora, the largest military representative body, and Raco, which represents commissioned officers.
Both will be concerned that using reservists may result in a long-term reduction in the size of the PDF, with small numbers of permanent members being used to protect and manage teams of reservists overseas.
Members of the PDF recently served in Lebanon alongside a partner Swedish force, the majority of whom were reservists.
Minister for Defence Willie O'Dea has already stated that the ongoing reorganisation of the reserve force and improvements to their training has enhanced their suitability for overseas missions.
© 2008 The Irish Times0 -
concussion wrote: »That's what I was thinking all right, thanks.
Nearly every soldier is a trained infantryman first, there is no need to look for riflemen from the RDF. Where the PDF is falling down is in, according to the Minister of Defence, is medical, transport, engineering and communications and information services.
From the Irish Times (my bold)
To be viable they need to give clear incentives to professionals to join and have a correctly established RDF then my predujices would be quelled.
To be a Rifleman up to the required standard would be for the RDF to do the six months required from Recruit to 3 Star and I mean the full six months not drill nights not camps...But for this to happen you would need to protect peoples jobs, which I can't really see with this crappy government or any other yet.0 -
To be viable they need to give clear incentives to professionals to join
There are plenty of people in the RDF with these skills now, but that's based on second had information and won't be known until the skills surveys are published. In the short term I reckon the skills are there.
Seeing as the DoD are now admitting they need the RDF to augment certain skills sets then yes, they are going to have to start a drive aimed specifically at these professionals in the future.and have a correctly established RDF then my predujices would be quelled.
The FCÁ is only gone less than 3 years, the restructure has brought on big improvements and a major cut in the wasters. I say give it a chance. What suggestions would you have incidentally?To be a Rifleman up to the required standard would be for the RDF to do the six months required from Recruit to 3 Star and I mean the full six months not drill nights not camps...
I disagree, yes there's going to be intensive training but I don't think that reservists need a full 6 months on top of the usual pre-deployment work up. RDF NCO's have filled slots as section commanders and Pl Sergeants in PDF platoons after only 2 weeks training with the Integrated Reserve.
With regard to PDF recruit (16 weeks) and 2-3* (8 weeks) -
How long is spent on drill, military ceremony and custom, military law, guard duties?
How long is spent on teaching the Steyr and marksmanship?
How long is spent on basic fieldcraft and section and platoon tactics?
How long is spent on GPMG?
RDF personell know these already as well as signals and navigation and probably infantry light support weapons such as GPMG SF, 84mm and 60 mm mortar. What they need more training, and more importantly, experience in, is tactical training and they know the basics already.
If the Department thought it would take full recruit training and 2-3* course then they'd be better off recruiting professionals straight in from civvy street and not bother upgrading RDF skills. Now this has happened before in the on individual cases for doctors but those positions do not require trained infantrymen per se.But for this to happen you would need to protect peoples jobs, which I can't really see with this crappy government or any other yet.
Agreed. And it won't. It's been said in the Dáil that they expect the first Reservists overseas to be self-employed. Basically they'll throw the doors open, say off you go and hope people will drop everything to get on the plane.0 -
concussion wrote: »There are plenty of people in the RDF with these skills now, but that's based on second had information and won't be known until the skills surveys are published. In the short term I reckon the skills are there.
Seeing as the DoD are now admitting they need the RDF to augment certain skills sets then yes, they are going to have to start a drive aimed specifically at these professionals in the future.
The FCÁ is only gone less than 3 years, the restructure has brought on big improvements and a major cut in the wasters. I say give it a chance. What suggestions would you have incidentally?
I disagree, yes there's going to be intensive training but I don't think that reservists need a full 6 months on top of the usual pre-deployment work up. RDF NCO's have filled slots as section commanders and Pl Sergeants in PDF platoons after only 2 weeks training with the Integrated Reserve.
With regard to PDF recruit (16 weeks) and 2-3* (8 weeks) -
How long is spent on drill, military ceremony and custom, military law, guard duties?
How long is spent on teaching the Steyr and marksmanship?
How long is spent on basic fieldcraft and section and platoon tactics?
How long is spent on GPMG?
RDF personell know these already as well as signals and navigation and probably infantry light support weapons such as GPMG SF, 84mm and 60 mm mortar. What they need more training, and more importantly, experience in, is tactical training and they know the basics already.
If the Department thought it would take full recruit training and 2-3* course then they'd be better off recruiting professionals straight in from civvy street and not bother upgrading RDF skills. Now this has happened before in the on individual cases for doctors but those positions do not require trained infantrymen per se.
Agreed. And it won't. It's been said in the Dáil that they expect the first Reservists overseas to be self-employed. Basically they'll throw the doors open, say off you go and hope people will drop everything to get on the plane.
You can't expect to be off the same standard of infantry man or whatever else from a few nights and camps, you need to experience the full quota of training, it's like saying I want to be a doctor but wont goto Medical school full time but a few nights a year and an odd week or two in a hospital and then expect to be off the same standard as other doctors who have done the full course.
I would not personally feel safe with someone that has done this as a hobby and then expects to be able to keep up, react and follow through the exact same as a fully trained solider, who has done the full course, has being intensively tested and trained for a sustained period.
It takes several weeks to fully learn the basics of the rifle, toets, practice on the range, then the gpmg the same again, the HMG, the 40MM M203, then the various infantry support weapons.
Then the physical training done in order for a man to be able to deal with the rigours of solidering, 99% of the RDF are not physically fit, it is apparent if they do a simple speed march around a square or a barracks a few times.
Yeah they look the part but can you actually do this job, the answer is currently no, I am a professional soldier and have been for 25 years and I can simply see the RDF never going oversea's as the army top brass won't simply allow it,because of the large amount of **** ups that will occur with lack of training...0 -
You can't expect to be off the same standard of infantry man or whatever else from a few nights and camps
I don't, but I also don't expect competent reservists to need the same amount of time as raw recruits.It takes several weeks to fully learn the basics of the rifle, toets, practice on the
range, then the gpmg the same again, the HMG, the 40MM M203, then the various infantry support weapons.
Weapons are not magical things that require a black beret in order to understand them They are machines, plain and simple. There isn't much to them. In my opinion, the Steyr is actually one of the most complex and that's the first one that recruits train on. I've done several support weapons courses with PDF troops - there's no mystique to PDF weapons courses. Also, the HMG is an infantry support weapon.Then the physical training done in order for a man to be able to deal with the rigours of solidering, 99% of the RDF are not physically fit, it is apparent if they do a simple speed march around a square or a barracks a few times.
I'll disagree with you about the figures you're plucking from thin air but yes, there needs to be a major overhaul in fitness throughout the RDF. Like I've posted in another thread there have been grade 3 requirements for careers courses for the last 2 years and there is a PTL course running this year to enable RDF to train themselves. Realistically, the personell who intend on going overseas will have enough time and cop on to get on with their personal fitness so I think saying that the RDF will never go overseas due to fitness is a moot point.Yeah they look the part but can you actually do this job, the answer is currently no, I am a professional soldier and have been for 25 years
I would have expected you to notice the improvement over the years. I joined 5 years ago and I can see how the RDF has come along.I can simply see the RDF never going oversea's as the army top brass won't simply allow it,because of the large amount of **** ups that will occur with lack of training...
The Minister of Defence has said that Reservists will be going overseas next year. I can see the opportunity being there but I can see the issue over job protection, rather than top brass dragging their heels, stopping this.0 -
concussion wrote: »
I'll disagree with you about the figures you're plucking from thin air but yes, there needs to be a major overhaul in fitness throughout the RDF. Like I've posted in another thread there have been grade 3 requirements for careers courses for the last 2 years and there is a PTL course running this year to enable RDF to train themselves. Realistically, the personell who intend on going overseas will have enough time and cop on to get on with their personal fitness so I think saying that the RDF will never go overseas due to fitness is a moot point.
Although a PTL Course being run for Reservists is a good start, it still isn't enough. It'll mean that NCO's and Officers will be able to take troops for PT's..... But only runs and some LME. Although it'll be good if the lads can run a few mile, there's a very good chance they'll be **** all use with a bit of weight on their back because they won't have done any runs with weight which is something only a PTI can bring them on. There lies the difference between fitness and military fitness. Now they could attach PDF PTI's to Reserve units although I couldn't see that happening.... Or they could run a PTI Course for Reservists which is again something I can't see happening. So although PTL's are a very good start, until something is done with regards to PTI's it still isn't enough.0 -
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concussion wrote: »I don't, but I also don't expect competent reservists to need the same amount of time as raw recruits.
I'd have to disagree with that. I spent over a year in the Reserves before I joined the PDF and there's a major difference in training. It's run at a whole different pace, way way more intense and there's a lot more to take on. If Reservists were ever to be deployed Overseas in a Rifleman position, well then he should be subjected to the exact same pressures that were faced by his PDF counterparts for 6-7 months.
Not only so he is up to the required standard but also so the lads he'd be serving with would know he did exactly what they had to do, which would be an important factor in the PDF having some belief in Reservists.
Although I can't see a Reservist being deployed as a Rifleman anytime soon.0 -
Poccington wrote: »Although I can't see a Reservist being deployed as a Rifleman anytime soon.
+10 -
I agree with you that any rdf would have to undergo the same training as pdf personel but i have to say that i think the pdf are being made out to be something special here, at the end of the day their only doing their job and in fairness 90% of the time their not doing much, ireland doesn't have any troops on a frontline and while i understand the risks facing troops on overseas duties it's hardly vietnam your talkin aboutPoccington wrote: »I'd have to disagree with that. I spent over a year in the Reserves before I joined the PDF and there's a major difference in training. It's run at a whole different pace, way way more intense and there's a lot more to take on. If Reservists were ever to be deployed Overseas in a Rifleman position, well then he should be subjected to the exact same pressures that were faced by his PDF counterparts for 6-7 months.
Not only so he is up to the required standard but also so the lads he'd be serving with would know he did exactly what they had to do, which would be an important factor in the PDF having some belief in Reservists.
Although I can't see a Reservist being deployed as a Rifleman anytime soon.0 -
I agree with you that any rdf would have to undergo the same training as pdf personel but i have to say that i think the pdf are being made out to be something special here, at the end of the day their only doing their job and in fairness 90% of the time their not doing much, ireland doesn't have any troops on a frontline and while i understand the risks facing troops on overseas duties it's hardly vietnam your talkin about
Explain to me how the PDF are being made out to be something special? All that's being said is that they're professional soliders so the RDF should be trained to the same standard if they wish to take in operations or at least be considered as a legitimate option by the DOD. As for only doing their jobs..... It just so happens their job is to be well trained professional soldiers.0 -
Poccington wrote: »I'd have to disagree with that. I spent over a year in the Reserves before I joined the PDF and there's a major difference in training. It's run at a whole different pace, way way more intense and there's a lot more to take on.
Here's one reason why I don't think reservists don't need full recruit to 3 star training - last years Int Reserve troops conducted LFTT with their PDF company on their second day. By the end of the first day of training they had proved that they had the weapons training and skill to be able to take part in something which the DF has only introduced in the last few years. They also know COFD, mil law etc etc - so why do they need more tactical training than a civvi straight off the street??Poccington wrote: »If Reservists were ever to be deployed Overseas in a Rifleman position, well then he should be subjected to the exact same pressures that were faced by his PDF counterparts for 6-7 months.
But what about as a mechanic, medic or CIS tech?Poccington wrote: »Although I can't see a Reservist being deployed as a Rifleman anytime soon.
Neither can I, I've said that previously and my arguements are about filling specialist roles.Poccington wrote: »Although it'll be good if the lads can run a few mile, there's a very good chance they'll be **** all use with a bit of weight on their back because they won't have done any runs with weight which is something only a PTI can bring them on. There lies the difference between fitness and military fitness.
Plenty of Reservists carry their gear on exercises without PTI's hovering over them. I've never been on training runs with PTI's to prepare me for courses.Poccington wrote: »Or they could run a PTI Course for Reservists which is again something I can't see happening.
Why not?0 -
concussion wrote: »
But what about as a mechanic, medic or CIS tech?
They have all been through the pressure cooker either before and/or during their technical training!!
A good few of them spend their first overseas trip in a rifle coy, before getting a handy one in HQ Coy!0 -
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I agree with you that any rdf would have to undergo the same training as pdf personel but i have to say that i think the pdf are being made out to be something special here, at the end of the day their only doing their job and in fairness 90% of the time their not doing much, ireland doesn't have any troops on a frontline and while i understand the risks facing troops on overseas duties it's hardly vietnam your talkin about
Hardly Vietnam have you ever being in the Lebanon durning the Civil War at its height, War is War and it is not a contest, try being underfire for weeks from both sides..
Also you have'nt a clue what goes on behind the gates of a barracks, you say 90% of the time soldiers are doing nothing... I say horse****, just because you can't see whats going on does'nt mean there is nothing happening... Soldiers are some of the few groups in the country that actually work hard for their small wages... So back up your statement and stop talking out of your hole.0 -
Also you have'nt a clue what goes on behind the gates of a barracks, you say 90% of the time soldiers are doing nothing... I say horse****, just because you can't see whats going on does'nt mean there is nothing happening... Soldiers are some of the few groups in the country that actually work hard for their small wages... So back up your statement and stop talking out of your hole.
Completely agree, walk into any barracks and what do you see....not much cos most are off training or on duties. The DF has a huge commitment both in ATCP and overseas missions and as a result troops are 'meeting themselves coming off duties' as I've heard it put.0 -
concussion wrote: »Sorry, I was referring to RDF who would be filling specialist roles, not PDF with tech grades.
yes but my point is that the pdf who serve in specialist roles overseas have all been through the recruit training weeding process, alot of them don't get a specialist role in the first place until they have served in the rifle companies, and there aren't a huge amount of ''specialist'' vacancies in an overseas battallion anyway. How many rdf will travel overseas any way 4 0r 5? The plumb jobs will be filled by seniority anyway. Is the cook pte in a rifle coy classed as a specialist or is it just the tech 4 + grades in hq coy?0 -
alot of them don't get a specialist role in the first place until they have served in the rifle companies, and there aren't a huge amount of ''specialist'' vacancies in an overseas battallion anyway.
That's only due to the time needed to gain tech grades. A PDF rifleman can go overseas after recruit, 2-3* and then the pre-deployment training. My point is RDF will not need to do a full 6 months training before specific overseas training.
The RDF who are needed are already techs or have relevant civilian qualifications. The whole reason the DoD is looking for RDF is because the PDF simply cannot fill these positions.How many rdf will travel overseas any way 4 0r 5?
Yeah, small numbers - for example 3 or 4 HVM's with this mission, a doctor here, an IT specialist there.The plumb jobs will be filled by seniority anyway. Is the cook pte in a rifle coy classed as a specialist or is it just the tech 4 + grades in hq coy?
The Minister has stated the shortfall is in heavy vehicle mechanics, medical personell and CIS techs. As of last year the PDF only had 22 out of 47 appointments for doctors filled, which is the reason they recruited doctors from Africa and are in the process of recruiting from Eastern Europe. Because of this shortfall it's nearly impossible to get medicals for troops and over 2000 PDF did not get a medical exam last year.0 -
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concussion wrote: »That's only due to the time needed to gain tech grades. A PDF rifleman can go overseas after recruit, 2-3* and then the pre-deployment training. My point is RDF will not need to do a full 6 months training before specific overseas training.
The RDF who are needed are already techs or have relevant civilian qualifications. The whole reason the DoD is looking for RDF is because the PDF simply cannot fill these positions.
Yeah, small numbers - for example 3 or 4 HVM's with this mission, a doctor here, an IT specialist there.
The Minister has stated the shortfall is in heavy vehicle mechanics, medical personell and CIS techs. As of last year the PDF only had 22 out of 47 appointments for doctors filled, which is the reason they recruited doctors from Africa and are in the process of recruiting from Eastern Europe. Because of this shortfall it's nearly impossible to get medicals for troops and over 2000 PDF did not get a medical exam last year.
Well the governement should up there recruitment and do direct entries into the required trades like done in the Navy on a constant basis.
There are direct entry RRT's, Nav's, ERA's, EA's etc down there and a lot direct from the merchant Navy.
We are actually still restricted by the 1921/22 treaty limitations on the size of our armed forces it is stupid but is still a fact.
If we brought in another 2 to 4,000 bodies off various skills reduced the RDF made them more professional then it would be a viable option... I still dont accept if you do less training that you could compete with the rigours off oversea's deployment, it is something like solidering that requires a lot of training there are no half measures as sending lesser trained men over sea's could result in injuries and death... And we all know the government does not like paying out if either happens !0 -
Well the governement should up there recruitment and do direct entries into the required trades like done in the Navy on a constant basis.
They definately should, at the moment they're looking for doctors in Eastern Europe!! Incidentally, a doctor serving in Liberia was in fact in a reservist on a short term commission.There are direct entry RRT's, Nav's, ERA's, EA's etc down there and a lot direct from the merchant Navy.
Sorry, I'm not down with the naval lingo but I get your point.We are actually still restricted by the 1921/22 treaty limitations on the size of our armed forces it is stupid but is still a fact.
The new white paper (for 2010-2020) is rumoured to increase the size of the DF through an enlargement of the NS and Air Corps - army to stay the same. Lets just hope there's an increase in budget too!!!!If we brought in another 2 to 4,000 bodies off various skills reduced the RDF made them more professional then it would be a viable option...
Already happening, the reserve has been slashed from over 14,000 to about 8,500.Complete restructure to mirror PDF brigade and lots of new equipment, training, courses, duties and mandays.I still dont accept if you do less training that you could compete with the rigours off oversea's deployment, it is something like solidering that requires a lot of training there are no half measures as sending lesser trained men over sea's could result in injuries and death... And we all know the government does not like paying out if either happens !
Will a doctor or a mechanic be out on patrol? What about an IT guy maintaining a network in KFOR HQ?0 -
concussion wrote: »
Will a doctor or a mechanic be out on patrol? What about an IT guy maintaining a network in KFOR HQ?
Im coming from the RDF now, but as far as I recall, all members of the PDF are soldiers first, technicals second. They have already had the necessary training to the accepted standard of infantry.0 -
Im coming from the RDF now, but as far as I recall, all members of the PDF are soldiers first, technicals second. They have already had the necessary training to the accepted standard of infantry.
Professionals such as doctors or engineers who get a short-service commission do a basic military course.
From military.ie
"As a qualified Doctor with at least 3 years experience, you will join the Defence Forces at the rank of Captain on a short service commission of 12 months with an opportunity for a permanent appointment. You will be given military training that will develop your leadership and decision-making skills as well as the facility to take part in appropriate medical training courses."
And from the application:
"Medical Officers are required to undergo training courses in basic military skills, military leadership, protocol and administration.
HVM's do 3 months military training prior to starting their training.
However I retract this
as they probably would in order to provide running repairs.concussion wrote: »Will a....mechanic be out on patrol?0 -
Yes they would, im sure mechanics would travel with cav units as "attachments" and are probably armed too.0
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I don't like these mutiquote replies so apologies in advance.concussion wrote: »
The FCA is alive and well. A name change and some new unit flashes have done nothing to change attitudes or capabilities.The FCÁ is only gone less than 3 years, the restructure has brought on big improvements and a major cut in the wasters. I say give it a chance. What suggestions would you have incidentally?
Yes they do. PDF 3 stars, after six months full time training are still considered to be too inexperienced and still in need of close supervision when they get to units. RDF NCOs with PDF platoons is lip service, and it would be naive to assume that they had anything other than a nominal command function. A two week course will not make up for all training up to a five months Pots cse, overseas and home experience, and then a standard course etc etc etc.I disagree, yes there's going to be intensive training but I don't think that reservists need a full 6 months on top of the usual pre-deployment work up. RDF NCO's have filled slots as section commanders and Pl Sergeants in PDF platoons after only 2 weeks training with the Integrated Reserve.
They don't know the basics already. The average RDF member cannot use a singar, or navigate over the mountains (or anywhere) for that matter as par the course. RDF weapons courses are a fraction of the length of time required for the same PDF courses, with most of the difficult, and unpleasant aspects removed.RDF personell know these already as well as signals and navigation and probably infantry light support weapons such as GPMG SF, 84mm and 60 mm mortar. What they need more training, and more importantly, experience in, is tactical training and they know the basics already.
I have no wish to be inflammatory or to burst anybody's bubble, but there are serious delusions of adequacy floating around this and other threads. If you want to be taken seriously, you should start thinking seriously. Stop believing your own propaganda.
RDF training is never consistent because people do not consistently show up, and it is never hard enough because people don't want to know and will loose interest. You don't have the time to get beyond the most basic of stages, and it's when the training is run by RDF instructors you have the misinformed illinforming the uninformed.
Soldiering largely consists of mundane routine, physical discomfort (cold, wet, hungry, miserable), and boredom, punctuated with periods of intense (usually unpleasant) activity. The RDF personnel I've worked with don't want to know about it.
If the RDF was up to scratch it would be common knowledge, and commonly accepted and there would be a need for a forum like this to sh1te on about how good you are/could be if only you had x/y/z resource available etc etc etc0 -
I don't like these mutiquote replies so apologies in advance.concussion wrote: »
The FCA is alive and well. A name change and some new unit flashes have done nothing to change attitudes or capabilities.
Yes they do. PDF 3 stars, after six months full time training are still considered to be too inexperienced and still in need of close supervision when they get to units. RDF NCOs with PDF platoons is lip service, and it would be naive to assume that they had anything other than a nominal command function. A two week course will not make up for all training up to a five months Pots cse, overseas and home experience, and then a standard course etc etc etc.
They don't know the basics already. The average RDF member cannot use a singar, or navigate over the mountains (or anywhere) for that matter as par the course. RDF weapons courses are a fraction of the length of time required for the same PDF courses, with most of the difficult, and unpleasant aspects removed.
I have no wish to be inflammatory or to burst anybody's bubble, but there are serious delusions of adequacy floating around this and other threads. If you want to be taken seriously, you should start thinking seriously. Stop believing your own propaganda.
RDF training is never consistent because people do not consistently show up, and it is never hard enough because people don't want to know and will loose interest. You don't have the time to get beyond the most basic of stages, and it's when the training is run by RDF instructors you have the misinformed illinforming the uninformed.
Soldiering largely consists of mundane routine, physical discomfort (cold, wet, hungry, miserable), and boredom, punctuated with periods of intense (usually unpleasant) activity. The RDF personnel I've worked with don't want to know about it.
If the RDF was up to scratch it would be common knowledge, and commonly accepted and there would be a need for a forum like this to sh1te on about how good you are/could be if only you had x/y/z resource available etc etc etc
Correct & Right0 -
Two right military experts here now :rolleyes:0
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Macbuster, can you change your post so it reflects who actually said that?The FCA is alive and well. A name change and some new unit flashes have done nothing to change attitudes or capabilities.
Plenty has changed and I've given plenty of examples.PDF 3 stars, after six months full time training are still considered to be too inexperienced and still in need of close supervision when they get to units.
Or they can expect to go overseas immediately after their 2-3* course.RDF NCOs with PDF platoons is lip service
No, its an acknowledgement that the RDF has the ability - throw them in at the deep end and see how they cope.A two week course will not make up for all training up to a five months Pots cse, overseas and home experience, and then a standard course etc etc etc.
I don't pretend it does.The average RDF member cannot use a singar, or navigate over the mountains (or anywhere)
The average RDF member won't be going overseas. The smart, fit, switched on and interested RDF member who has a skill that the PDF requires will.RDF weapons courses are a fraction of the length of time required for the same PDF courses, with most of the difficult, and unpleasant aspects removed.
I've done several weapons courses with the PDF students, one of them a detachment commanders course which had 3 RDF sergeants as the main instructors.but there are serious delusions of adequacy floating around this and other threads.
If I wanted to be adequate I'd be happy providing a 24hr guard in barracks. Time to move forward.If you want to be taken seriously, you should start thinking seriously.
I am thinking seriously, if I wasn't I'd be harping on about RDF sending companies of troops over to help out and how grateful the PDF would be for it. I'm being realistic here.Stop believing your own propaganda.
Example please.RDF training is never consistent because people do not consistently show up, and it is never hard enough because people don't want to know and will loose interest. You don't have the time to get beyond the most basic of stages, and it's when the training is run by RDF instructors you have the misinformed illinforming the uninformed.
Soldiering largely consists of mundane routine, physical discomfort (cold, wet, hungry, miserable), and boredom, punctuated with periods of intense (usually unpleasant) activity. The RDF personnel I've worked with don't want to know about it.
The probability is that only RDF who have completed integrated training will be eligable. These people have been trained with the PDF by the PDF. They are the above average I've mentioned before who are willing to get stuck in an improve themselves as soldiers.If the RDF was up to scratch it would be common knowledge, and commonly accepted
The RDF as a whole isn't up to scratch.
But it's better than the FCÁ.0 -
while I would like to see the RDF Go overseas, Is it necessary? It would be much more in line to send over PDF lads and use Reservists for the various Duties on Barracks. Due to a shortage of PDF lads in a particular Barracks at a particular time it makes sense.
Don't have these duties as part of Man Days, have them separate and pay the Appropriate going rate for duties performed.
(ie Pay 1/7 of a week and Dutie allowence for a 24 hour Guard. and pay for the day of resting off.)
I know a few people who would be in a position to do this type of work for a short term period.(Such as PDF Deployments of 4 months (Chad) and 6 months (Everyhere else))
This way could possibly allow more PDF to go overseas. Than the 850 currently allowed.
Have the Reservists who want to do it sign a contract that says they will show up for all assigned duties.
Personally I am in a position to do a 24 hour guard every 2 days, As in Duty, rest, duty, rest, duty, rest, duty.
It would be alot easier than sending Reservists overseas.
The way I see it is, If reservists have the time to go overseas with the PDF, then they most definitely have the time to do 6 mths of Duties.
Even if they don't have the time for all that they could do it for 2 months, 3 months whatever. Just to alleviate the day to day running of the Barracks. Or at least some of it.0 -
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minidazzler wrote: »while I would like to see the RDF Go overseas, Is it necessary? It would be much more in line to send over PDF lads and use Reservists for the various Duties on Barracks. Due to a shortage of PDF lads in a particular Barracks at a particular time it makes sense.
Don't have these duties as part of Man Days, have them separate and pay the Appropriate going rate for duties performed.
(ie Pay 1/7 of a week and Dutie allowence for a 24 hour Guard. and pay for the day of resting off.)
I know a few people who would be in a position to do this type of work for a short term period.(Such as PDF Deployments of 4 months (Chad) and 6 months (Everyhere else))
This way could possibly allow more PDF to go overseas. Than the 850 currently allowed.
Have the Reservists who want to do it sign a contract that says they will show up for all assigned duties.
Personally I am in a position to do a 24 hour guard every 2 days, As in Duty, rest, duty, rest, duty, rest, duty.
It would be alot easier than sending Reservists overseas.
The way I see it is, If reservists have the time to go overseas with the PDF, then they most definitely have the time to do 6 mths of Duties.
Even if they don't have the time for all that they could do it for 2 months, 3 months whatever. Just to alleviate the day to day running of the Barracks. Or at least some of it.
There is a lot more than duties that the RDF cannot do for various security reasons as they are still civilians as the implementation of Military law although in theory would apply to them, it cannot as they simply leave etc.
You cannot do CIT,Central Bank,MSG and various other jobs I cannot comment about here.
Although I do respect the enthusiasim it is clearly not viable...
The courses done in the RDF are not off the same standard as the full courses, I won't keep harping on about it but we have Walters such as Bunny Shooter that would last one day of Ground Hog or being in an OP for weeks because he thinks he is Rambo and personally Gung Ho morons like that have got men killed oversea's..
Also when I was training recruit platoons the former RDF members had to be deprogrammed from Walter BS Mode to reality as most of the time the training they thought they had was wrong and sometimes even dangerous.
We are restricted to the amount of soldiers that go over sea's and I don't think anyone in the PDF would take too kindly to someone from the RDF taking these roles..
Will O'Dea is an EX-FCA man and talks complete BS from one day to the next as this idea is an idea and wont every take form in the coming future unless training and the same level is taken.
And just a point to note Only 3 Star Privates upwards can go over sea's not 2 Stars and it is rare to send a new 3 Star over sea's without him/her doing at least 6 Months to a year in his Regt,Sqn or BN..
The days of going over sea's straight after you finished 3 Star are gone and also going for selection straight of the same course.0 -
implementation of Military law although in theory would apply to them, it cannot as they simply leave etc.
If a reservist says they'll be on duty and they don't turn up they are responsible under military law even though they don't come under the "in uniform " or "undergoing training" rule that usually applies. The law is there, the problem is with people not having the balls to apply it.The courses done in the RDF are not off the same standard as the full courses, I won't keep harping on about it
Been there, done them and, in one case, bought the tshirt. Lets move on.0 -
And just a point to note Only 3 Star Privates upwards can go over sea's not 2 Stars and it is rare to send a new 3 Star over sea's without him/her doing at least 6 Months to a year in his Regt,Sqn or BN..
The days of going over sea's straight after you finished 3 Star are gone and also going for selection straight of the same course.
it used to be that you would need a bit of time in your unit do portlaoise etc before you could even put in for overseas. Lad in my old unit passed arw selection as a redass but was told to come back after he had done a bit of soldiering, which he did and went back to the wing after redoing selection again!(that was along time ago tbh, things have prob changed now)0 -
Good post McB (post #82).
[Although ease up on the personal remarks - wink]0 -
There is a lot more than duties that the RDF cannot do for various security reasons as they are still civilians as the implementation of Military law although in theory would apply to them, it cannot as they simply leave etc.
You cannot do CIT,Central Bank,MSG and various other jobs I cannot comment about here.
Although I do respect the enthusiasim it is clearly not viable...
The courses done in the RDF are not off the same standard as the full courses, I won't keep harping on about it but we have Walters such as Bunny Shooter that would last one day of Ground Hog or being in an OP for weeks because he thinks he is Rambo and personally Gung Ho morons like that have got men killed oversea's..
Also when I was training recruit platoons the former RDF members had to be deprogrammed from Walter BS Mode to reality as most of the time the training they thought they had was wrong and sometimes even dangerous.
We are restricted to the amount of soldiers that go over sea's and I don't think anyone in the PDF would take too kindly to someone from the RDF taking these roles..
Will O'Dea is an EX-FCA man and talks complete BS from one day to the next as this idea is an idea and wont every take form in the coming future unless training and the same level is taken.
And just a point to note Only 3 Star Privates upwards can go over sea's not 2 Stars and it is rare to send a new 3 Star over sea's without him/her doing at least 6 Months to a year in his Regt,Sqn or BN..
The days of going over sea's straight after you finished 3 Star are gone and also going for selection straight of the same course.
The RDF are what the DoD make them, if the US & UK can send reservists overseas then there is no reason why a member of the RDF cant be sent overseas with the correct training.
It all boils down to employment protection, if a reservist had it, they could do longer courses and proper training before they go overseas and then serve with the confidence of their colleagues, it isnt there, there isnt plans to do it either, they will ask for volunteers to go but the specialists they want wont be available unless they can get leave of absence for a year. In the current economic climate I dont think I'd want to leave my job for a year and hope its still there for me when I get back0 -
If the Reserves do go abroad it wont be combat duties as such but to free up the PDF for more serious work.From that perspective you can see it would be a good idea,as nearly every civil job is bogged down with paperwork and crappy tasks,ie Gardai.0
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Ok i've kept low profile on this but i just have to ask. What is with the PDF prejudice towards the RDF, so we only go to training once a week and go on Camp for two weeks and do Weekends and Field Days and Over Nights and Tactics and Patrolling days during the course of the year but do you seriously think that the RDF can't keep up with the PDF just because you's do it full time. Yes the PDF get more and better training but i think you're being a little too judgemental i mean i've have seen a lot of RDF guys who are mad into the PDF and honestly should be in the PDF, but they take that stuff seriously and work to keep up with the PDF, I mean i don't see any difference between what a 3 Star in the PDF can do that a Corporal or a Sergent in the RDF can't so. And if it's skills you want to talk about, well RDF are trained the same way as PDF
Also PDF go over seas and i respect that but can i ask you, when you went over sea were you trully ready? the first time i'm asking, when you went over seas were you able to stand the heavy conditions or were you a little green. I'm not asking to start anything but i'm just saying that if it's being battle confident and experience on the field that give the PDF the right to say RDF guys can't do what the PDF can do then RDF going overseas, but what's to say that an RDF soldier can't deal with going over seas, with the right training and a little experience an RDF soldier can be capable for over seas. Hell you can train a 7 year old kid to shoot and kill people in Africa but you can't train RDF soldiers to go over seas?
I would say that a few guys seem to believe they're like Rambo or Solid Snake around here that they know more about s**t then others simply because they do it full time, but i would say a lot are just being a little biased and don't want to admit that RDF soldiers are capable because they don't like them rather then knowing full well what they're really like. If you don't like the RDF then fair enough i don't expect PDF soldiers to, hell i don't like a couple of PDF lads myself that i've met over the course of my time in the RDF, but that don't mean that we should be fighting, we should be working together and learning from one another because we all have skills to bring to the table if you look at it from my point of view.
A person in the RDF could be in the Fire Bridage, An Apprenticeship, The Para Medics, A cook etc
PDF are trained in many other things including things from the above0 -
Ok i've kept low profile on this but i just have to ask. What is with the PDF prejudice towards the RDF, so we only go to training once a week and go on Camp for two weeks and do Weekends and Field Days and Over Nights and Tactics and Patrolling days during the course of the year but do you seriously think that the RDF can't keep up with the PDF just because you's do it full time. Yes the PDF get more and better training but i think you're being a little too judgemental i mean i've have seen a lot of RDF guys who are mad into the PDF and honestly should be in the PDF, but they take that stuff seriously and work to keep up with the PDF, I mean i don't see any difference between what a 3 Star in the PDF can do that a Corporal or a Sergent in the RDF can't so. And if it's skills you want to talk about, well RDF are trained the same way as PDF
Also PDF go over seas and i respect that but can i ask you, when you went over sea were you trully ready? the first time i'm asking, when you went over seas were you able to stand the heavy conditions or were you a little green. I'm not asking to start anything but i'm just saying that if it's being battle confident and experience on the field that give the PDF the right to say RDF guys can't do what the PDF can do then RDF going overseas, but what's to say that an RDF soldier can't deal with going over seas, with the right training and a little experience an RDF soldier can be capable for over seas. Hell you can train a 7 year old kid to shoot and kill people in Africa but you can't train RDF soldiers to go over seas?
I would say that a few guys seem to believe they're like Rambo or Solid Snake around here that they know more about s**t then others simply because they do it full time, but i would say a lot are just being a little biased and don't want to admit that RDF soldiers are capable because they don't like them rather then knowing full well what they're really like. If you don't like the RDF then fair enough i don't expect PDF soldiers to, hell i don't like a couple of PDF lads myself that i've met over the course of my time in the RDF, but that don't mean that we should be fighting, we should be working together and learning from one another because we all have skills to bring to the table if you look at it from my point of view.
A person in the RDF could be in the Fire Bridage, An Apprenticeship, The Para Medics, A cook etc
PDF are trained in many other things including things from the above
To put it in a nutshell
FCA/RDF = Hobby, it's not real get over it.
PDF = Full time job/Career.
You cannot compare the RDF to the TA or other types of reserves. The RDF is a political setup and has no actual role, you can talk about this for ever, they will never go over seas in the next decade, it is lip service from Moronic politicians such as Brain-dead EX-FCA Muppet Will O'Dea.
I would'nt ask to do any of your jobs with 1/2 the training, why should you be able to do the same on the same principle...0 -
I know this is off topic but I am wondering if anyone can answer this question
What is the fall off during recruit training and afterward of the people with reserve experience compared to people without it, is it higer, lower or similar. The reason I ask is that perhaps the best use of the reserve is to act as a pool/familiarisation process for those thinking of joining the forces full time0 -
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........The courses done in the RDF are not off the same standard as the full courses, I won't keep harping on about it but we have Walters such as Bunny Shooter that would last one day of Ground Hog or being in an OP for weeks because he thinks he is Rambo ....
Rambo, he's a pussy compared to me
A few of you "real" soldiers would want to get a life
I can do anything you can and do it better, and my daddy is bigger than yours 0 -
I know this is off topic but I am wondering if anyone can answer this question
What is the fall off during recruit training and afterward of the people with reserve experience compared to people without it, is it higer, lower or similar. The reason I ask is that perhaps the best use of the reserve is to act as a pool/familiarisation process for those thinking of joining the forces full time
There is a very high turnover in PDF recruit Platoon's now as young lads these days dont like to work or to be shouted at...
20 years ago you had no choice as it was a very hard job to get...
Average platoons can loose up to 40% in the first 3 months...0 -
I came into the PDF with (I think) about three year's service with the FCA and wasn't prepared for army life at all.
When you join the PDF the play acting and fvck arsing around stops, its that simple.
Even by todays standards where recruiting is pretty cushy compared to a few year's ago, the training for PDF recruits is much tougher than anything the RDF will prepare you for.0 -
To put it in a nutshell
FCA/RDF = Hobby, it's not real get over it.
PDF = Full time job/Career.
You cannot compare the RDF to the TA or other types of reserves. The RDF is a political setup and has no actual role, you can talk about this for ever, they will never go over seas in the next decade, it is lip service from Moronic politicians such as Brain-dead EX-FCA Muppet Will O'Dea.
I would'nt ask to do any of your jobs with 1/2 the training, why should you be able to do the same on the same principle...
(1)Yeah it's a hobby but it's not like we all just sit around and drink the whole time, we work just as hard as you to get our stripes and we are just as capable as you on the battlefield, that's why the RDF was originally decended from the Irish Volunteers in 1916, but if you think those lads were just sitting on their rear ends and learning a bunch of crap that whole time then maybe there should have been no Easter Rising or War for Independece at all
(2)As for your opinion on Willie O Dea, well you should be lucky, he's the onlt smart guy in Fianna Fail who actually supports you, if it were up to the rest of the Dail there would be no PDF because they kiss ass so much they'd give in to terrorists in a hearth beat, at least oyu can be happy someone out there fighting for you
(3)You wouldn't ask to do any of our jobs? Fair enough you've been in the PDF so long that you obviously don't need anymore training, but what about the guys in the PDF who are just starting out, they might want the extra training incase they look at themselves 5-10 years down the line and say, do i really want to do this the rest of my life. Also you say why should we be able to do the same thing on the same principle? Well maybe because some of us might want to be in the PDF later on and this would be a great advantage for us and we could help out buddies by showing them too. I mean can i ask, the PDF lads who were in the RDF, did you find the RDF i bit helpful in helping you in the PDF? Was it good for you so that you could pass on your wisdom onto PDF lads who weren't in the RDF or was it all just a crock of s**t from the start. I understand that some might have come from units that weren't as diciplined as other but i know a guy from my unit who went into the PDF 6 months ago, he's a 3 Star and he says it was good because it helped you understand the Styer and GPMG and it was good for passing on to other if they needed help0 -
(1)Yeah it's a hobby but it's not like we all just sit around and drink the whole time, we work just as hard as you to get our stripes and we are just as capable as you on the battlefield, that's why the RDF was originally decended from the Irish Volunteers in 1916, but if you think those lads were just sitting on their rear ends and learning a bunch of crap that whole time then maybe there should have been no Easter Rising or War for Independece at all
(2)As for your opinion on Willie O Dea, well you should be lucky, he's the onlt smart guy in Fianna Fail who actually supports you, if it were up to the rest of the Dail there would be no PDF because they kiss ass so much they'd give in to terrorists in a hearth beat, at least oyu can be happy someone out there fighting for you
(3)You wouldn't ask to do any of our jobs? Fair enough you've been in the PDF so long that you obviously don't need anymore training, but what about the guys in the PDF who are just starting out, they might want the extra training incase they look at themselves 5-10 years down the line and say, do i really want to do this the rest of my life. Also you say why should we be able to do the same thing on the same principle? Well maybe because some of us might want to be in the PDF later on and this would be a great advantage for us and we could help out buddies by showing them too. I mean can i ask, the PDF lads who were in the RDF, did you find the RDF i bit helpful in helping you in the PDF? Was it good for you so that you could pass on your wisdom onto PDF lads who weren't in the RDF or was it all just a crock of s**t from the start. I understand that some might have come from units that weren't as diciplined as other but i know a guy from my unit who went into the PDF 6 months ago, he's a 3 Star and he says it was good because it helped you understand the Styer and GPMG and it was good for passing on to other if they needed help
You are always training in the army there is no such thing as a fully trained man it is always ongoing but experience and training are two different things.
The current RDF decends from the old LDF correct me if I am wrong..
As for Willie O'Dea he's a yes man and the only decent Minister for Defence was Frank Aiken
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(1)Yeah it's a hobby but it's not like we all just sit around and drink the whole time, we work just as hard as you to get our stripes and we are just as capable as you on the battlefield, that's why the RDF was originally decended from the Irish Volunteers in 1916, but if you think those lads were just sitting on their rear ends and learning a bunch of crap that whole time then maybe there should have been no Easter Rising or War for Independece at all
No, you haven't worked half as hard as any PDF Corporal that completed an NCO's Course to earn your stripes. You don't even have to work particularly hard for your Stars. As for the just as capable on the battlefield comment..... When has the RDF or FCA in the past 40-50 years proven itself on any battlefield? Or are you just assuming you're a hard as nails, kill for fun type of bloke that would be fearless under enemy fire?
And the RDF isn't a descendant of the Volunteers, I dunno where you got that crazy concept from.
Oh as for the being in the RDF before the PDF, I did that and it counted for nothing. On our first day there was a lad there telling someone that if he wanted he could take the whole platoon out and teach us how to march..... Then told war stories of a harrowing 24 hour Ex. :rolleyes:
You go in and learn again from scratch, things are done completely differently and the RDF in no way provides you with the knowledge to enlighten others. You just put your head down and learn along with the rest of your lads, instead of acting like a gob****e know it all. You're there to do the exact same job as the other lads sitting around you and to go through the same 6-7 months of hardship...... The last thing people should do is start trying to teach lads how to do things. That's what the Training Staff is for.0 -
Arent the defence forces as a whole descendent's from the irish volunteers? Not just the PDF or the RDF?
I appreciate that the RDF training is different to the PDF training but my question is does the RDF provide a better pool of recruits to the PDF, i.e. they have some notion of what to expect like the angry corporal will shout at them and they cant finish at 5pm and start playing their playstation 3's?
@macbuster: Of the 40% lost on average would their be less rdf people going than non rdf or the same or more.0 -
No it doesn't provide a better pool, they're the exact same as any normal civilian coming in off the street.
The RDF doesn't prepare you in any way for the PDF. You'll have Reservists going on their ticket the same way you'll get normal lads going on their ticket. Whether someone was a Reservist doesn't come into the equation when it comes to them being able to hack it or not. It's all just down to whether a person wants it enough or not.0 -
Arent the defence forces as a whole descendent's from the irish volunteers? Not just the PDF or the RDF?
I appreciate that the RDF training is different to the PDF training but my question is does the RDF provide a better pool of recruits to the PDF, i.e. they have some notion of what to expect like the angry corporal will shout at them and they cant finish at 5pm and start playing their playstation 3's?
@macbuster: Of the 40% lost on average would their be less rdf people going than non rdf or the same or more.
It's a mixed bunch in the 40% although the majority have come from no military background... The drop outs are generally between 18 and 22 basically kids0 -
Poccington wrote: »No, you haven't worked half as hard as any PDF Corporal that completed an NCO's Course to earn your stripes. You don't even have to work particularly hard for your Stars. As for the just as capable on the battlefield comment..... When has the RDF or FCA in the past 40-50 years proven itself on any battlefield? Or are you just assuming you're a hard as nails, kill for fun type of bloke that would be fearless under enemy fire?
And the RDF isn't a descendant of the Volunteers, I dunno where you got that crazy concept from.
Oh as for the being in the RDF before the PDF, I did that and it counted for nothing. On our first day there was a lad there telling someone that if he wanted he could take the whole platoon out and teach us how to march..... Then told war stories of a harrowing 24 hour Ex. :rolleyes:
You go in and learn again from scratch, things are done completely differently and the RDF in no way provides you with the knowledge to enlighten others. You just put your head down and learn along with the rest of your lads, instead of acting like a gob****e know it all. You're there to do the exact same job as the other lads sitting around you and to go through the same 6-7 months of hardship...... The last thing people should do is start trying to teach lads how to do things. That's what the Training Staff is for.
(1)I don't assume we're tough as nails, i do however assume that you underestimate us greatly, I mean how exactly are we supposed to prove ourselves when we haven't exactly been given the chance, we've never been asked to go overseas or fight, we've never been asked for anything so you can't judge us for something we've never exactly done.
(2)I guess i got the notion about the Volunteers because it seems the Vounteers are just like us. They lacked experience and training and they were part timers too, yet they fought the British and to a great extent beat them in many battles yet you wouldn't rant about them.
(3)So the RDF don't provide any knowlege at all, so you wouldn't be able to show a PDF recruit how to do IA's or Gas Stoppages on the Styer or GPMG from what you learned in the RDF or First Aid.
BTW I remember from an older thread some PDF lads were saying that once recruit training is over and you become a 3 Star, a lot of the time is done sitting around waiting for something to do, sitting in lockerrooms and waiting to be called on for something. If this is true then how can you make comments about us when you's yourelves have a few faults too0 -
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