Reserves overseas

Local-womanizer

I know if I was going overseas i'd rather go over while in the PDF.Why?Higher standerd of training,feel safer as a result of that.

I like being in the RDF but as for going abroad I think many people are taking it far too lightly in terms of danger.Many troubled countries in the world have rebels who have been fighting before I was even born and their bound to have a bit more experiance fighting than the RDF have.

bunny shooter

As is well known here, I am RDF. Personaly I don't think RDF should be sent overseas. If lads want overseas join PDF IMO

Re RDF outranking PDF, eg RDF Sgt and PDF Cpl, I agree it is questionable IMO

Experienced RDF Cpl and PDF 3* depends on RDF Cpl's ability and experience

dahamster

bunny shooter wrote: »

Experienced RDF Cpl and PDF 3* depends on RDF Cpl's ability and experience

what relevent experience could they possibly have?

bunny shooter

dahamster wrote: »

what relevent experience could they possibly have?

How do you want it to be measured, by penis sizes or biggest scars ?

NoQuarter

bunny shooter wrote: »

How do you want it to be measured, by penis sizes or biggest scars ?

he makes a point actually....

MacBuster

I think he meant in an operational capacity

Hagar

dahamster wrote: »

what relevent experience could they possibly have?

Chicken and egg situation really.
How will they ever get experience if they are excluded from overseas operations?

kermit_ie

These "RDF" personnel who will be going overseas, will be going as members of the PDF. They will be brought in on a short term contract, and reverted back to the RDF on their return.

dahamster wrote: »

what relevent experience could they possibly have?

There will never be an RDF person serving overseas in an Infantry capacity. The only personnel overseas will be technicians, in which case, their civilian experience is very relevent.

bunny shooter

MacBuster wrote: »

I think he meant in an operational capacity

Never

RFHazard

king-stew wrote: »

The only was the RDF should be sent overseas is if PDF NCO's take them on a 6 month recruit training course then onto a 6 week overseas form up!

Agreed

RFHazard

bunny shooter wrote: »

Re RDF outranking PDF, eg RDF Sgt and PDF Cpl, I agree it is questionable IMO

Experienced RDF Cpl and PDF 3* depends on RDF Cpl's ability and experience

Sorry, but there is no way any RDF NCO or officer has the experience or training to command PDF troops in any capacity. That Pte has more training than you, more experience than you, and has been overseas etc etc.

There are very capable individuals in RDF, who would be excellant soldiers should they join, and endure PDF training. However, they have not, and therefore aren't. I have no doubt that if I were to go into the civilan workplace the civilians there with the same technical qualifications as me, would wipe the floor with me as I do not have their realworld experience.

If you want to go overseas join the PDF for three years, otherwise stop insulting those of us who have by making baseless assumptions that we are the same.:(

dahamster

kermit_ie wrote: »

There will never be an RDF person serving overseas in an Infantry capacity. The only personnel overseas will be technicians, in which case, their civilian experience is very relevent.

Technicians overseas do not exist in a bubble seperate from the rest of the bn. They still have military responsibilities and are armed at all times.Depending on their job they have to travel all over the AO. Since the current peace enforcement enviornment is a lot less static than the leb, it would be sensible that their military/inf skill are up to spec as well.As to their civilian experience? Well I did college paid by the army. After quals i was sent to the school of signals to do the army stuff for the best part of a year, then i was able to work in my own unit. There aren't to many civilain jobs with the exact same gear as the DF. If you are talking purely IT fine, but those guys still have to do all the other signals requirements as well and in the PDF are generally trained in that before they get into the IT side of things anyway.Any rdf personnel going overseas will have to be competant technically and militarily before they will be trusted. There is a large difference between turning up for a couple of hours a week and being in work (and under military law) 24/7 which is what being overseas means.To be honest the only way an rdf nco should be left overseas is if they have done so as a pte soldier already, it isn't a game of soldiers.

greenarrow

Another (possibly the most important) factor for consideration in the shoratge of qualified specialist personnel, i.e doctors, engineers, etc., is that the DF won't pay the same salary scale as what could be attained in civvie street.

And if you are a doctor or an engineer, its quite a substantial drop in earnings.

As to reservists going overseas, I am not sure if 6 months is required for personnel. Certainly there should be a training period before they are deployed. But whether or not 6 months is required, when someone has been in the RDF for x number of years, with x courses done, may not be required. But certainly a reasonable training period would be required.

Possibly 4 months because you're not going to be training a recruit. You're also going to be training someone who has some of that training already done. But you're also going to be training someone who wants to be there. So they would have the right attitude.
I think 4 months would be sufficient, because we don't have the personnel to train these guys/gals either. We have to look at it from a manpower perspective too.
But at the other end of it, they do know the majority of it. So why waste time teaching them stuff, like foot drill etc, when they already know it? When that can be scratched off and the training can kick in instead.

And I think that if RDF personnel showed that they have done a training period similar to us, it would prove beneficial for better "working realtions". And whether we like to admit it or not, its going to be the way things go in the future.

I would also say that fitness standards wouldn't come into it really. There are plenty of RDF personnel out there who are as fit as a fiddle, and could certainly hack training fitness-wise. Lets not kid ourselves, and say they couldn't. These guys/gals are in gyms 3-4 times a week and they constantly work out. You should always give credit where credit is due. They could certainly hack a backpack and running around.

Morpheus

Speaking as a member of the RDF for four years... and a fit one at that.... I personally think that 4-6 months training will be required as a minimum. but regarding fitness levels? you are 100% kidding yourself if you think a lot of the RDFers are in gyms 3 and 4 times a week, there are a lot of very soft soldiers in the units, so soft that even small yomps can be shortened (while in the middle of the march) due to others lack of fitness, thus totally ruining the entire training scenario on the rest of the "minority" who actually ARE fit.

Ive seen lads who thought themselves super soldiers moan the whole walk about carrying so much gear and they didnt even have the full ammo load or surplus equipment a typical patrol might have to carry.

Until there are more PTLs and some qualified rdf PTIs to get our units in shape, then as far as im concerned all the weapons and equipment training is a waste of time because if you arent fit enough to hike, crawl or run with it then theres no point knowing how to use it. I hope for better things in the future for the RDF but i am totally disheartened with fitness levels and it is the SINGLE BIGGEST FACTOR that stops us from even trying to train in cohesive combined units with our PDF big brothers.

greenarrow

Morphéus wrote: »

Speaking as a member of the RDF for four years... and a fit one at that.... I personally think that 4-6 months training will be required as a minimum. but regarding fitness levels? you are 100% kidding yourself if you think a lot of the RDFers are in gyms 3 and 4 times a week, there are a lot of very soft soldiers in the units, so soft that even small yomps can be shortened (while in the middle of the march) due to others lack of fitness, thus totally ruining the entire training scenario on the rest of the "minority" who actually ARE fit.

Ive seen lads who thought themselves super soldiers moan the whole walk about carrying so much gear and they didnt even have the full ammo load or surplus equipment a typical patrol might have to carry.

Until there are more PTLs and some qualified rdf PTIs to get our units in shape, then as far as im concerned all the weapons and equipment training is a waste of time because if you arent fit enough to hike, crawl or run with it then theres no point knowing how to use it. I hope for better things in the future for the RDF but i am totally disheartened with fitness levels and it is the SINGLE BIGGEST FACTOR that stops us from even trying to train in cohesive combined units with our PDF big brothers.

1. I never said that there were no unfit people in the RDF. I said that there are enough people in there who could hack the fitness levels required.

2. Do you honestly think that the unfit people would ever get the opportunity to go overseas? Or even be remotely interested? And if they were interested, do you think realistically they will get to go?
The answer there is no.

3. It would be the fit people that would put themselves forward. And if I am not mistaken, those people who go for the integrated training have to meet the required fitness levels.
And its the integrated element that will get to go overseas, not the sloppy joes.

Morpheus

careful... not all fit members of the RDF are integrated, im a fit sloppy joe.

Ive seen first hand the non integrated lads attitude to a certain Integrated Sgt's order that "every morning it is expected that you privates will get up earlier than normal and warm up and go jogging around the camps perimeter as your fitness is your own responsibility and makes you a better soldier"

Personally I thought it was great that finally someone would to a certain degree (if he couldnt force us) would at least shame some people into getting fit.

I got up the next morning with 4 of my mates and went for a run.

He was duly ignored by most of the rest.

What can he do? With so much PC Bullsh*t and pampering due to possible claims etc, what is his limit in enforcing fitness awareness on some of these sloppy joes?

Poccington

It's been said before and it'll be said again, RDF folk if they wish to have any hope of Overseas should do 6 months Recruit/2-3* Star Training ran by the PDF. Until then, they won't ever be viewed as being at the acceptable standard because they haven't been tested to the same level as a PDF 3* has, simple as.

Integration, although it helped improve standards in Units doesn't bring you up to the same standard or equal the same hardships endured by your PDF equivalent be it Private, NCO or Officer when they trained to achieve their rank(s).

Personally, I think if an RDF member really wants to serve Overseas and really feels they could be of benefit to the DF should join the PDF. If they didn't do it before then they obviously weren't very serious about being a solider. People can trot out all the excuses of "Oh they already had a job, they only realised they wanted to be in the PDF after they had gone past the age limit etc." but at the end of the day, you know when you want to be a soldier.

For RDF personnel to get a chance to go Overseas without spending 2-3 years in a Unit working full time, doing endless duties, endless Exercises, many a Guard of Honour and all the other stuff we get caught for is in my opinion a disgrace and is gonna lead to trouble. Then again if it works out cheaper for the DF why would they care?

greenarrow

If the guy who was integrated was a PTI then everyone should have been up and running. As per the training programme. If not, then he has no business giving that order. Full stop.
And if he is a PTI then he should grow a pair and get all of ye out running.

Oh and I meant that the people going for the integrated would be fit personnel. Not saying that all non-integrated personnel are unfit. I respect that.


Poccington I think 4 months is adequate. It takes 6 months to train a recruit in the PDF because you are essentially starting with people who know absolutely nothing. (with the excception of ex-RDF personnel)
Whereas an RDF member would have some experience with weapons, COFD, and all the other basics. So teaching them the basics is redundant, because they would already know it. By the basics I mean the likes of COFD, rank structure, polishing boots, ironing uniform etc. all that stuff that they would already know.

You can fast track them onto the tactics instead. And I would harbour a guess that the fitness standard would be up there too. If not at the beginning, then certainly after the duration of training. And people were trained for WWII with less time and training, and they won a war. So it can be done.

I am more inclined to judge a person by merit and ability to do the job. And at the end of the day, overseas personnel all wear a blue beret.

Poccington

There's no Integrated personnel that are Army PTI's.

No 4 months isn't adequate. If they wanna come play with the big boys they can bloody well do the same training we had to do. Do you think we just learn stuff for the 2 months just having it nice and handy? The first few months are some of the worst because you get bounced off constantly, working till all hours and up until all hours doing your kit. It's a physical and mental test for anybody that goes through it, so why should any RDF personnel be exmept from it? Cause they did Footdrill in the Reserve?

I can assure you they don't know it all already either. They wouldn't have recieved close to the level of instruction on weapons that they would in the PDF. Oh, as for the implication that an RDF member would be somehow better off than a civilian when they go in is ridiculous.... Out of all the Ex-RDF personnel I trained with only 6 or 7 of us made it through. Out of roughly over 15. You can easily judge people by merit and ability to do the job but as it is RDF can't do the job. The majority don't have the fitness, don't have the weapons or tactical training and they haven't even been close to tested the way a PDF Recruit would be. So until it happens, when it comes to being judged they'll be viewed as not upto scratch.

By the way, if you can point out to me where in Chad or Kosovo the lads are wearing blue berets I'll eat my hat, literally.

greenarrow

You're right. The guys in Chad and Kosovo are not wearing blue berets.

All I said was that the guys who have been in the RDF would have some experience of the military way of life. And as such it wouldn't be as alien to them as would be for people who have none. I never said anything about them being more superior. Full Stop.

RDF personnel could easily be up to our standard inside four months. The reason for that is that there is already a foundation to be built upon. And with the proper training and instruction, they would make the grade.
And after training the mindset would be focused on the task at hand, and they would fulfill the role required.
That's what training does to you. Well you know it. Everything is beat into you and you don't forget it. It would be no different for RDF/PDF because of the way it is structured.

RFHazard

Morphéus wrote: »

I hope for better things in the future for the RDF but i am totally disheartened with fitness levels and it is the SINGLE BIGGEST FACTOR that stops us from even trying to train in cohesive combined units with our PDF big brothers.

Fittness is only one of many factors as to why the Rdf are not capable of going overseas as things currently stand.

The point that is constantly overlooked is that RDF are not psychologically prepared to be soldiers. They are civilians in uniform. Any civilian can read a manual, or listen to a powerpoint presentation, but it is what you experience in training that is most important in making you a soldier. It is the shared experience of overcoming shared adversity; of relying on your comrades to succeed; of suffering as a result of your buddies' mistakes, watching your buddy suffering because of yours; of forcing yourself past your own self imposed limitations and of getting on with the job when limitations are imposed on you. Etc, etc, etc.

The RDF needs to completely change its corporate mindset. Like a drunk that can't admit that he has a problem, and blames everybody else for the smell of sh1te from his pants, the RDF "careerists" need someone to conduct an intervention and open their eyes to reality. Overseas is not a right, entitlement, or reward. It is a duty, in harsh conditions, often boring and sometimes dangerous. A minimum of six months fulltime training, and unit experience is necessary for the PDF, and even then the redarses are watched very carefully out there before being trusted. An NCO will have a number of trips before being given the responsibility for the lives of a section. If you want to go you have to be able to do your job and look after yourself.

If you want to risk your life while serving your country try and conduct a citizens arrest outside a chipper at 3am on Saturday. That way you'll only get your self killed.



And before anyone kicks off, RDF training does not make soldiers, and two weeks of a Pots Cse does not make NCOs. IMHO the notion that the RDF have a foundation of training to be built upon is delusional and naive.

dahamster

greenarrow wrote: »

All I said was that the guys who have been in the RDF would have some experience of the military way of life. And as such it wouldn't be as alien to them as would be for people who have none. I never said anything about them being more superior. Full Stop.

RDF personnel could easily be up to our standard inside four months. The reason for that is that there is already a foundation to be built upon. And with the proper training and instruction, they would make the grade.
And after training the mindset would be focused on the task at hand, and they would fulfill the role required.
That's what training does to you. Well you know it. Everything is beat into you and you don't forget it. It would be no different for RDF/PDF because of the way it is structured.

Thats rubbish mate. I was an experienced 3 * in the fca. I had to start all over again from scratch as a pdf recruit same as those with no prior military experience. You must go through the pressure cooker the same way as you potential comarades overseas did. Otherwise there would be no trust.

Duffers

So...I don't get it.

What is the point of having a reserve if it is non deployable?

I'm sure there are a few domestic roles, like disaster relief etc, but...seems bizarre that they cannot deploy.

Evd-Burner

They need to start raising the amount of training available to the RDF. But the thing is they don't want anyone in the RDF doing more than 40 man days a year becuase then they have to pay them a tiny pension.

Morpheus

quite simply, there is no point in the reserve in its current incarnation.

Time is long past to at least look at a model similiar to the TA and to invest money and legislature.

Other than that the reserve will just stumble on like a rotting corpse, a self pitying, dust covered, hamstrung, little brother to the PDF.

Covenline

Evd-Burner wrote: »

They need to start raising the amount of training available to the RDF. But the thing is they don't want anyone in the RDF doing more than 40 man days a year becuase then they have to pay them a tiny pension.

How much money do you get if you do your 40 days as a 3 star? and when do you get paid?

Evd-Burner

something like 380 7 days so sweet little really.

minidazzler

Evd-Burner wrote: »

something like 380 7 days so sweet little really.

After tax, all depending on how your credits are assigned.

I get 450ish a week and have done 6 weeks paid and a helluva lot of fielddays.

so I have been paid circa 2700 this year and I am waiting on my Grat.

OS119

Poccington wrote: »

It's been said before and it'll be said again, RDF folk if they wish to have any hope of Overseas should do 6 months Recruit/2-3* Star Training ran by the PDF. Until then, they won't ever be viewed as being at the acceptable standard because they haven't been tested to the same level as a PDF 3* has, simple as.

Integration, although it helped improve standards in Units doesn't bring you up to the same standard or equal the same hardships endured by your PDF equivalent be it Private, NCO or Officer when they trained to achieve their rank(s).

Personally, I think if an RDF member really wants to serve Overseas and really feels they could be of benefit to the DF should join the PDF. If they didn't do it before then they obviously weren't very serious about being a solider. People can trot out all the excuses of "Oh they already had a job, they only realised they wanted to be in the PDF after they had gone past the age limit etc." but at the end of the day, you know when you want to be a soldier.

For RDF personnel to get a chance to go Overseas without spending 2-3 years in a Unit working full time, doing endless duties, endless Exercises, many a Guard of Honour and all the other stuff we get caught for is in my opinion a disgrace and is gonna lead to trouble. Then again if it works out cheaper for the DF why would they care?

i disagree entirely with your belief that only regular soldiers can do a regular soldiers job.

the TA and USNG prove repeatedly that - in principle - reservists can do any job that the regulars do. the caveat of course is that to do that they need three elements which for political reasons are absent from the RDF: they need to actually believe that their chances of soldiering are real - that the Brown envelope may actually appear on the doormat at any time, they need to be trained to a viable level while 'part-time', and they will need consolidation training to take them from being 'part-time' to being able to walk into a regular unit on operations.

for the TA the likelyhood is real - at least 10% of all deployed forces in Iraq and A'stan are from the TA, and many other overseas postings - particularly the Balkans and Cyprus - are almost entirely TA. the 'consolidation' period takes between one and three months, some will get an opportunity to train with the regular units they will join in threatre, but many don't, and it doesn't appear to matter that much. the elephant in the room of course is an assesment of the quality and professionalism of the 'average' RDF private or JNCO vs that of his TA or USNG counter-part and therefore how much resourse is required to bring him up to a standard where he could play a useful role - but i'd bet my mortgage that it wouldn't take 3 years.

cherrypicker555

MacBuster wrote: »

There is absolutely no chance of the RDF going over sea’s stat... As they are neither trained to a competent military level nor have the commitment to do so.

This is BS being bounced around for the last 20 years and from what I see the FCA (RDF) is still the drinking club it was when I joined then subsequently left to join the PDF.

Dont kid yourself, without 6 months prior training, tactical and fitness, its doubtful, the PDF,apart from the Wing would be capable of carrying out the type of aggressive anti insurgency role seen in places like A-Stan.

Out on patrol 9-10 hours most days, Gimpy gunners carrying 1000 rounds +, others 90 lbs + of kit, (Brits prefer patrols to be self sufficient).

Its highly unlikely female PDF infantry would be capable of constantly operating at such a high tempo, ie carrying heavy loads over many hours in extreme heat/dust in constant contacts etc, either physically or psychologically.