How much longer before dealers realise we aren't all suckers?

-Chris-

E92 wrote: »

Audi dealers were given provisional July pricing in back in February AFAIK.

As I said at the time, your figures compared virtually exactly to the provisional pricing we got at the time, and it didn't compare that well to the eventual released prices, and didn't include the 120bhp diesel...

Again, props to Audi Ireland for negotiating such brilliant pricing. BMW would have KILLED us otherwise.

E92 wrote: »

Ordering an old model when you know a new one is on the way is absolutely crazy IMO irrespective of whether or not these July changes were happening.

Ordering a 1.6 or 1.9TDi when you know they're big sellers and they've been discontinued in the new model is entirely reasonable. I wouldn't order 50 of them for stock, but I'd certainly order a few based on the info we had at that time. They were very popular engines, based on the Irish penchant for small engines.

E92 wrote: »

Of course if that B7 is unreg'd then it can sell for less in July at no cost to the dealer because VRT is only paid on the date of sale.

Fair point, I haven't done the figures but I hope it helps.

E92 wrote: »

I really can't believe that you guys don't know what's coming down the line. The manufacturers should be telling ye this stuff.

Nope. We just get official information. I learn more from worldcarfans, germancarblog and you, than I do from Audi. Maybe when you get higher up the foodchain you get, the more info you get, but I'm just a lowly salesman so I've no idea :p

E92 wrote: »

I don't know why they don't if they don't. I don't expect them to tell ye what the competition is up to but I do expect them to give the the inside track on yer own products at the very least. Ye can't possibly make the most appropriate decision if ye're not told about what's coming up. Ye certainly shouldn't be blamed for making the wrong decisions if ye're not given the correct information.

In the position of training manager for a vehicle distributor, I'd make it my mission to educate my "students" with both my info and the competition's. I think it's very important.

That being said, when we had our A5 & A4 training, we compared them side-by-side, from stats to back-to-back driving, with the competition. A lot of effort goes into training us. But when the competition brings out a new model or a new spec, we don't get trained on that new car/spec. I believe we should. Product information is absolutely vital, and if you know yours and the competition's, you'd be a mighty force in the realm of the salesperson...

E92 wrote: »

Did you know that the smallest engine for the facelifted A6 will be a 1.8?

Nope. Again, I learn more from you than anywhere. You're truely an asset to this online community. Got a link for that?

E92 wrote: »

Did you know that it will have 160 bhp, and the 2.0 TFSI and 2.4 have been axed, while the 2.0 TDI(which will at last be common rail) will be in 2 states of tune: 140 bhp and 170 bhp?

Makes sense in the scheme of things I guess, the 140 & 170 thing matches with current engine strategy, while axing the 2.4 and replacing it with a turbo/super charged engine is also in line with future plans. Discontinuing the 2.0TFSI is news to me!

E92

It's fairly common knowledge that there will be a 3.0 TFSI which is actually supercharged in spite of the name and will develop 290 bhp at this stage.

The funny thing is, a lot of the info from the various car sites is leaked documents from Audi:p!

Here's my link for an outline of the new A6 engines.

Unfortunately it's in German:o, but the engines bit says(roughly)(it's from the Ein wichtiger beitrag bit):"an important feature to strive towards the reduction in fuel consumption should be achieved by the renovated engine range. So the 2.0 litre TDI will switch from Pumpe Duese to Common Rail technology and will be offered with 140 and 170 bhp. New entry petrol is the 1.8 TFSI with 160 bhp, which replaces the 2.0 litre 4 cylinder and the 2.4 V6. Further up the range, the 3.2 FSI is replaced by a supercharged 3.0 litre V6 with 290 bhp, which should make do with an EEC Norm of 9.5 litres per 100 km. The new double clutch gearbox and the modified 8 speed automatic gearbox will arrive in the successor in 2011!.

-Chris-

E92 wrote: »

It's fairly common knowledge that there will be a 3.0 TFSI which is actually supercharged in spite of the name and will develop 290 bhp at this stage.

Yeah, I've seen this for the (R)S4 etc. - smaller engines with forced induction.

E92 wrote: »

The funny thing is, a lot of the info from the various car sites is leaked documents from Audi:p!

I'm keeping my eye on it, but often you'll find manufacturers releasing information just to see what the reaction is, rather than because it's a concrete, cast-in-stone decision.

E92 wrote: »

Here's my link for an outline of the new A6 engines.

Thanks!

E92 wrote: »

Unfortunately it's in German:o, but the engines bit says(roughly)(it's from the Ein wichtiger beitrag bit):"an important feature to strive towards the reduction in fuel consumption should be achieved by the renovated engine range. So the 2.0 litre TDI will switch from Pumpe Duese to Common Rail technology and will be offered with 140 and 170 bhp.

About time our engines became Common Rail. PD didn't do enough.

E92 wrote: »

New entry petrol is the 1.8 TFSI with 160 bhp, which replaces the 2.0 litre 4 cylinder and the 2.4 V6. Further up the range, the 3.2 FSI is replaced by a supercharged 3.0 litre V6 with 290 bhp, which should make do with an EEC Norm of 9.5 litres per 100 km.

I'll be surprised if people accept a 1.8 A6... noone's a big fan of a 1.4 Passat, even if it is a fantastic engine....

E92 wrote: »

The new double clutch gearbox and the modified 8 speed automatic gearbox will arrive in the successor in 2011!.

Everything will go S-Tronic eventually, it's our best gearbox for performance.

E92

Of course for the S4 it will have 333 bhp. It will replace the S5's V8 unfortunately too:(. It is intended to rival BMW's 335i.

The antiquated 1.9 TDI will finally give way next year to a 1.6 TDI allegedly, with between 90 and 120 bhp depending on application.

Meanwhile there will be a 1.2 TFSI with 100 bhp apparently, so that should clear out the equally antiquated 8V 1.6. Fortunately it will have 4 rather than 3 cylinders unlike the present 1.2 VAG lump.

As for the 1.8 A6, well people buy the E200K in droves, and that's a 1.8 in spite of the badging.

Not that it matters either way, since the 2.0 TDIs will become the default choice here. Hopefully most people will choose the 170 version, though knowing Ireland they'll all go for the 140 version:(. If anything most A6s I see already are 2.0 TDIs.

Surprised at the Passat 1.4 though, you'd think in this country it would be a runaway success given our obsession with pint sized engines, though then again perhaps most people are holding back for July and the diesels?

-Chris-

E92 wrote: »

Of course for the S4 it will have 333 bhp. It will replace the S5's V8 unfortunately too:(. It is intended to rival BMW's 335i.

Intended to? We'll rival the 335i and then some!

I'll miss the V8 though, I don't believe it's all about power - I'd rather drive a sub-power V8 than a mega-power electric car, there's something about a V petrol configuration that can't be topped!! Give me the roar and burble of the V8 all day long!

E92 wrote: »

The antiquated 1.9 TDI will finally give way next year to a 1.6 TDI allegedly, with between 90 and 120 bhp depending on application.

Meanwhile there will be a 1.2 TFSI with 100 bhp apparently, so that should clear out the equally antiquated 8V 1.6. Fortunately it will have 4 rather than 3 cylinders unlike the present 1.2 VAG lump.

Progress is necessary.

E92 wrote: »

As for the 1.8 A6, well people buy the E200K in droves, and that's a 1.8 in spite of the badging.

I think keeping the badging the same was a genius marketing move. If they "down-spec'ed" the car from E200 to E180, some people would have been miffed.
As it was though, it stayed as an E200, but the road tax decreased - win-win!

E92 wrote: »

Not that it matters either way, since the 2.0 TDIs will become the default choice here. Hopefully most people will choose the 170 version, though knowing Ireland they'll all go for the 140 version:(. If anything most A6s I see already are 2.0 TDIs.

The big seller at the moment is the A4 2.0TDi 120bhp. People would rather spend the extra money on comfort rather than the extra horsepower - our roads and their driving habits don't justify it. I'd expect the same trend to apply to the A6.

E92 wrote: »

Surprised at the Passat 1.4 though, you'd think in this country it would be a runaway success given our obsession with pint sized engines, though then again perhaps most people are holding back for July and the diesels?

The current ploy is to pull the badge off the back, take people for a test-drive, and then tell them that they just drove a 1.4.
If they experience it first, people are very receptive to it, but on paper people are worried about being stung with an underpowered family saloon.

Funnily enough, there seems to be a very specific line between a saloon with an economical engine and an underpowered saloon - and it doesn't always make sense! Hopefully the new VRT/labelling systems will focus people on efficiency rather than size.

Bee

copacetic wrote: »

There are 30 or 40 BMW 3 series 07 on carzone on dealers forecourts at 2 or 3k more that the will be new in July with 5k less equipment than the edition model. Nearly every car is about 10k overpriced.

There are about 30 old model 1.9TDI A4s for more than the new one is costing in July, again 10k overpriced.

Finally there are IS220ds execs (but not as many) for 45k with 20k miles, and a brand new one will be 43k in 3 weeks. Again about 10k overpriced.

I've rung up about a few of these cars and the dealers are all saying that the prices are right, however they are offering what are probably proper 'new world order' prices for trade ins, so you would be nuts to go with them.

I really laugh when you hear everyone saying how the forecourts are full of second hand cars that won't shift, no wonder, a lot of them are 20 or 30% overpriced!

Think I am going to have to sit this one out until the all realise they can't try and fool us all...

Good research!

Have you checked the selling price of how much petrol engined cars that will rise in price after the July vRT changes kick in are being sold for on carzone?

Are there bargains in buying a nearly new petrol as there will be substantial rises in some models?

copacetic

Nice mention for boards.ie

Todays Sunday Independent wrote:

Readers won't be fooled by dealers 'pulling a fast one'
Comment By Campbell Spray


Sunday June 22 2008

THE launch of post-July 1 price lists continues apace with most importers claiming that there are reductions on most of their range. Some premium ranges are also having to reduce the prices of cars adversely affected by VRT changes.

Readers are incensed by the very tardy attitude of certain companies.

Dave writes: "Dear Campbell, Very disappointed in your printing of the self-serving letter from an industry veteran.

I notice that he didn't address the issues. There is no doubt in my mind that dealers have preyed on the ignorance of customers over the last six months. Look at anyone who has bought a 520d since January for instance or anyone who fell for the 'buy now before the prices go up' ads from the Mercedes dealers.

"Even now a quick perusal of carzone.ie for instance shows all the main dealers for all the luxury marques, BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Lexus trying to sell second-hand cars for €10,000 more than they will be new in July.

Not just one or two, practically every car is overpriced. There are 320i coupes for €65,000 with five thousand miles that will be €53,000 new in July!

"Mercedes C220s with similar mileage for €60,000. All at least €15,000 to €20,000 overpriced, but the dealers are hoping they can fool people into buying one with an amazing 10 per cent off.

"I'm in the market for a 2008 used model and have visited all the dealers in the last few months.

"The are all very helpful until they realise that you know exactly what is happening with the prices and aren't going to be fooled. . .

"The reason the second hand trade has dried up is simply the car industry has tried to pull a fast one on buyers, who will now just wait and wait until they are forced to provide good value and decent service.

"Keep the good fight going and check out the vrt related threads and examples at http:www.boards.ie

"Yours,

-- Dave"

- Campbell Spray

Gir

pburns wrote: »

This has always been a bit of a bugbear of mine...

I don't think the whole 'glass palace' look is necessary. In a lot of cases it replaced an older brick building which, if painted and tiled properly, should sufficently satisfy any marketing/brand-image bull****.

As it is all the garages look the same whether it's Audi or Ford or whoever. I'm sure some construction company made a fortune specialising in this niche back in the early noughties and I'd wager in 12-15 years time it'll all starting to look very dated.

I was in the McLaren Technology Centre in Woking last year (Norman Foster design etc.) and I swear to God the front display area where they have the the key F1 & road cars isn't any more impressive than my local Audi dealership (well apart from the artifical lake outside:D).

Waste of money. I seek out the guys who aren't paying hundreds of grand each year in repayments. You get better value and meet more knowledgable salesmen.

Block Exemption had a lot to do with these so called new Glass Palaces. Most of the manufacturers would have piled in some of the investment too.

It is a tuff industry out there at the moment. From the top to the bottom. This won't really fix itself until January, even then I'd say a few will go to the wall between now and then, mostly used car dealers.

Luckily as far as I can gather from my experience of delaing with car dealer types, most of them have made their money else where, land deals etc.

Should be an interesting few months ahead.

Henry Ford III

AudiChris wrote: »

Look at this car:

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Audi/A4/1.9-TDI/1020243/

They've dropped it 5k and it's still too expensive. That car's in stock and onsite, so they've already been invoiced for it by Audi Ireland. They've got their fingers crossed for a big chunk of support from Audi Germany I expect.

Everyone's got a boss, including the Brand Managers of these garages. They're going to have to walk in to that boss and say, "I ordered 10 1.9TDis speculatively, thinking they'd still be in demand because the new A4 was 2.0TDi only. I wasn't aware a 120bhp was coming out, and I didn't know it would cost mid-30s. I now have to sell those 10 1.9TDis for a 10k loss (aka, I just lost our dealership 100k through circumstances waaaaay outside my control)."

If you were in that position, how quick would you be to walk into the office and have that conversation with your boss?

Tough call that, but ignoring an issue like that will not make it go away either.

If the boss was up to much, and knew his product, he should have blackballed that €300k+ stock order.

Easy come easy go I guess.

p.s. I was in the USA recently, and couldn't believe the price of cars, even new high end ones. An Audi R8 is US$109,000 I think.

E92

AudiChris wrote: »

Intended to? We'll rival the 335i and then some!

We'll see about that!

AudiChris wrote: »

I'll miss the V8 though, I don't believe it's all about power - I'd rather drive a sub-power V8 than a mega-power electric car, there's something about a V petrol configuration that can't be topped!! Give me the roar and burble of the V8 all day long!

Yes, which is why moving back to a V6 is a bad idea. Fortunately the RS4/RS5 will keep a V8. One of the reasons why petrol is better than diesel is the noises they make, especially when you move of 4 cylinders. 5, 6 and 8 cylinder engines sound so much better as petrols than diesels. I used to think BMW's straight 6 made a fantastic noise, that was until I went in an S5 with a proper V8 engine, and then I was shown what a fantastic engine note is:p! I'd have no problem with going for more cylinders even if I wasn't getting more power. The smoothness and crucially the engine note are worth it. 4 cylinders is depressing sounding, 5 sounds great, 6 sounds even better but V8s are the daddy of them all. I don't like the sound of V10s I must admit, but V12s make a most extraordinary noise in a supercar. I adore my E34's straight 6 noise, I'm quite glad it has only 150 bhp, because it means I have to work it harder and hear that straight 6 more often at higher revs:D! Volvo used to make gorgeous sounding 5 pot engines in the 850/S70/V70 too, but recently they've been muted:(. And similarly Audi's old 5 pot engines were great sounding too, if we are going to be downsizing on the cylinder count can Audi please oblige us and make 5 cylinder engines again:D?

It isn't all about power, you can only do 120 km/h so the chances of being able to use all the power in anything with more than say 300 bhp are wasted, but the noise of an engine is something that's there the whole time. Therefore it is necessary that the engine sounds good, and the only way possible to make an engine sound good is more cylinders!

One of the worrying trends at the moment is that the manufacturers are making engines with fewer cylinders at the moment, there will be a Merc S-class with just 4 cylinders next year, why can't they just downsize and make cars lighter instead of robbing us of aural refinement(and smoothness) by cutting down on the cylinder count? Especially in premium badge cars, what's the point in paying more for these if they're becoming less better than non premium badge cars?

AudiChris wrote: »

The big seller at the moment is the A4 2.0TDi 120bhp. People would rather spend the extra money on comfort rather than the extra horsepower - our roads and their driving habits don't justify it. I'd expect the same trend to apply to the A6.

Oh dear. The 143 isn't even that much dearer. The whole point of the new system is that it should get rid of this obsession with small engines/low power cars. Why would anyone spend €35.1k and then get an engine with only 120 bhp, when €2,500 more gives you a more respectable 143 bhp? I suppose this is a problem with making the same engine in 3 different states of tune. At least most people understand the bigger engine = more power thing, but this thing of the same engine in lo, medium and hi outputs gets people baffled no doubt.

AudiChris wrote: »

The current ploy is to pull the badge off the back, take people for a test-drive, and then tell them that they just drove a 1.4.
If they experience it first, people are very receptive to it, but on paper people are worried about being stung with an underpowered family saloon.

Funnily enough, there seems to be a very specific line between a saloon with an economical engine and an underpowered saloon - and it doesn't always make sense! Hopefully the new VRT/labelling systems will focus people on efficiency rather than size.

Hopefully the new system will move people away from the obsession with pint sized engines. On the basis of what you're saying about the A4, it doesn't look like it though:(. The Passat 1.4 is de-badged already, the back only says "TSI"!

Climate Expert

Henry Ford III wrote: »

p.s. I was in the USA recently, and couldn't believe the price of cars, even new high end ones. An Audi R8 is US$109,000 I think.

Thats true but the extra costs or road tax, fuel tax and insurance make it cost about the same as here....acutally hold on....

Henry Ford III

Climate Expert wrote: »

Thats true but the extra costs or road tax, fuel tax and insurance make it cost about the same as here....acutally hold on....

Fuel is about $4 a US gallon. We all pay insurance.

The car is well specced (stunning vehicle in all fairness)

Not great at exchange rates but US$109k must be c. €67000?

Long way from that to the entry level R8 price here of €176130 plus delivery.

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

Oh dear. The 143 isn't even that much dearer. The whole point of the new system is that it should get rid of this obsession with small engines/low power cars. Why would anyone spend €35.1k and then get an engine with only 120 bhp, when €2,500 more gives you a more respectable 143 bhp? I suppose this is a problem with making the same engine in 3 different states of tune. At least most people understand the bigger engine = more power thing, but this thing of the same engine in lo, medium and hi outputs gets people baffled no doubt.

hmmm, pretty sure that isn't any point of the new system E, never mind the whole point!

Besides why should someone pay 2.5k more for the 143bhp when it doesn't cost audi a penny more to build them?

Would imagine anyone with an interest will buy the 120bhp 2.0TDI and chip it, assuming they aren't crippled in any other way.

Out of interest is there any external differences for the 120/140/170bhp versions of the 2.0TDI? Are we gonna see the bloody different coloured i's on the boot badges etc?

Ice_Box

Bargain or Typo?

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/BMW/330/330-i/1107638/

E92

That ad is riddled with errors.

When did ye dubs start using Cork phone numbers?

BMWs don't have compasses either AFAIK. And why would you be doing an NCT in March on a car that was reg'd in January?

bazz26

Ice_Box wrote: »

Bargain or Typo?

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/BMW/330/330-i/1107638/

There are lots of these "bargin" high end cars floating around carzone at the moment and all happen to be from private sellers. I would not be surprised if it is some sort of scam and those photos were stolen off of other adverts.

If something seems to good to be through then it usually is.

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

That ad is riddled with errors.

When did ye dubs start using Cork phone numbers?

BMWs don't have compasses either AFAIK. And why would you be doing an NCT in March on a car that was reg'd in January?

looks too good to be true alright but car could be shown as in Dublin so people searching for dublin reg see it.

Compass built into rear view is an option, and nct date could be just a guess for when it is first due. Don't actually see any 'errors' E?

Embassy plates, interesting.


edit: The car is in germany with the owner,who will only accept bank transfers or similar due to value of car. Willing to ship it back to Ireland of course.

JoeA3

That ad is a definite scam. Check out this 2006 R32, funnily enough using the same phone number:

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Volkswagen/Golf/R32/1107637/

Now I know the 2nd hand car market has gone to pot, but 18k for a 2 year old R32?! I don't think so...

Mc-BigE

regarding overpriced existing stock, its simple really, offload the loss of selling those cars cheap against the crap trade-in price people will get post july against a new car.

Sandwich

copacetic wrote: »

How much longer before dealers realise we aren't all suckers?

Id say they already know that. But as long as there are enough suckers out there.....